Good Temps #19 — The First 9c Repeat, The Exodia Downgrade, and Does New Technology Affect The Grades Of Old Climbs?

Pietro Vidi Makes The Second Ascent Of Drifters Escape 5.15a Trad

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The capacity of these athletes is on a completely different planet than it's ever been. So you have these folks who have the capacity to be competitive at a World Cup level and they just like take a season off or go on a short rock trip, like in the offseason or something, and they're bringing this insane capacity to the stone and doing things like this where you're like, wow, that's like a whole year for a professional climber only 10 years ago or something like that is just this woman's long weekend.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Welcome to the Test Piece Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com/slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Okay, you guys, good tempts is back. But there's only three of us this time. It's Will Anglin, Alison Vest, and me, Josh. Uh, I think this will be a little a little smoother than having all five of us. Uh, that was that was a lot of big personalities, big voices, and not a lot of time. Uh, but still sad to not have Carlo or Austin. You guys, what do you think the odds are that Carlo listens to this episode? Like, just if you had to guess, should we like I want to put like some code word in there? Like, and then we could totally make fun of him, see if he 100% hi, Carlo.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

I feel like does he have to listen to the whole thing? Like, what are the odds that he listens to some of it? Maybe high, but maybe we need to put the code word like at the end, you know?

SPEAKER_02 2:06

So well, now he knows. Yeah, my my bet is that he doesn't even listen to the beginning, but uh Carlo, I hope you're having fun out in Colorado climbing on some rocks. Austin is on a mega road trip. Um, it's some amazing film that they're making. I I got the okay to to tease a little bit of hype for it, uh, but he is out there also climbing rocks with an amazing crew. So we don't have Austin. And I also want to point out it's the first time both Austin and Carlo did not attend. This is their first uh good temp's absence, and they're spending it on the rock, so good for them. Rightly. So well, one of the issues uh that we always have is that we have a lot of people and we're trying to schedule right before it comes out because lots of news keeps happening. And of course, people want us to comment on whatever the latest, greatest news is, but sometimes it happens between the time we record and release the podcast. And this morning we saw Pietro or Piet Drifters Escape, actually, just like literally, yeah, just like an hour or two before going. So thank you for posting that. Uh, and congrats to the second ascent of the world's first uh traditional uh 15A. That's big news. Big news.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

What do you guys think?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

So sick.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

It's so cool. The line is ridiculous. I was in Squamish in September and just like once you know where it is on the wall and someone points it out to you, you can't stop looking at it. Like every time I like had a view of the chief, I'd be like, oh yeah, there it is. It's it's still sick from this angle, too. Cool. Um, it's so rad. And also like Pietro was working it while we were there, so kind of seeing the line up there and watching him go for it and rip off. And dude, it's freaking sick.

unknown 3:56

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Yeah, I think it's so cool when like the hard stuff is just like epic and beautiful too. Like the photos were amazing too. I'm biased, I'm friends with Quinn Mason, who's like obviously playing both worlds of trying to get into photography and also an athlete herself. And she took all those photos he just posted. And I mean the photos look great, but the the like line itself, like Will said, is amazing. So it's cool that other people are doing it.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

And it's not a it's not a roof crack, which like I like I like the the style in which it is hard is really cool. Yeah, I mean, no, no shade against roof cracks, but like I think for for a while when I was thinking about like, oh, like what are these you know really hard trad climbs gonna be like? And it was like around the time that Century Crack and Um I think like Necronomicon was another one, like all these crazy uh sustained uh roof projects. I was like, Yeah, maybe that's what uh these hard trad climbs look like. Um, but I you know drifters couldn't be more different than that, and in kind of the sickest way possible. Like it's almost a a boulder problem that's gear protected, which is really neat.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

I think that there's something special about those climbs that like you're saying, Alison is just like beautiful and right there, and Will, you said you can like see it from everywhere. And he made some comment in his Instagram about I don't know if it was like that haunted him or that he felt like while he was in the process of projecting it, that it just felt like it was mocking him or always there looking at I mean, yeah, you see you're seeing it from town, like you you're like walking to dinner in the evening or something, and you look up and you're like, it's right there.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

It's always looking down on you.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

And those climbs hold a lot of mystique and love from from me at least. Like I think about in bouldering, like some of the coolest climbs are like fear of a black hat when you walk into uh red rocks of the craft boulders. It's like, what's that? Um, I was thinking about uh what's that thing? Oh, well, I can't remember the name, but it's in Waco, like um, what's that boulder as you're walking up the the chains on North Mountain? And it's just power of load with power. Loaded with power, yeah. And you're just like, you know, like I guess for me because I was not good enough to do those climbs when I first went to those areas, and you just walk past them, you just think, someday, someday. Uh and so yeah, uh, I feel like a lot of youngsters will now have seen Pietro up there or or Connor uh working it, and probably like someday,

Mei Kotake’s Sending Spree

SPEAKER_02 6:36

someday it'll be me. Other big news, uh Allison, who's the woman who just did every boulder that was hard in one area in like a day or two?

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah, May Kotaki from uh Japan, who's like, yeah, I mean, she's been like a longtime World Cup competitor. I don't know, I don't think she was on the circuit this year this year specifically, but um but yeah, she did like it was hard to tell because I think some of the posts were were later than maybe like day of or whatever, but she did two V14s in an afternoon, and then somewhere between like one or two days later, she did her first V15, and then the very next day she did another V14. So, like, I mean, I think that's like the craziest week of climbing in the history of women's bouldering for sure. Um, just based on like the amount of hard climbing she just sort of I mean from the outside. I feel like Instagram's weird because from the outside it always looks like people just like randomly do things, but um it did kind of seem like she just sort of did those boulders, like she sort of showed up and did all these boulders and was like, Yay, first V15, so cool, good week.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Like just that area looks cool too. It's like it's like the Swiss alpine bouldering areas, um, which I have never been to, but look gorgeous.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Yeah, uh I think we talked about this earlier, probably in reference to Laura Rogora and just her insane tick list, where it just seems like the amount of amazing, hard things people are doing is just it's it's like the sheer volume. Um I don't want to like digress into like being like, you guys, you all need to like you know go off adventure and do first ascents. Like I still do admire and understand the desire to just repeat beautiful line. I mean, these are all things that are beautiful. It's not like they're finding you know dumpy, soft things to pad their ticklets. These are like iconic, amazing boulders that everyone wants to do. And it's just, yeah, the sheer volume is just mind-blowing. It's just, yeah, these ticklists are becoming what would be lifetime tickless of professional climbers not long ago is uh, you know, four days of Instagram posts.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

And I think it's a it's a cool intersection of what's happening with the competition scene. Like to uh be able to compete at a World Cup level requires uh, you know, such an insane level of like athleticism and just athletic capacity. Like competing in a World Cup through multiple rounds, like it's grueling, let alone these like combined events that have happened over the last couple of years. And if you look at like what the team selection is like for the US, these are climbing athletes who like I hear the argument frequently, like, you know, like how much stronger are they than you know, the John Gill from, you know, like people make these historical comparisons. Whether that top level has gone up, I mean, I I feel like clearly it has. How much? I don't know. But the thing that seems just completely undeniable is like the capacity of these athletes is on a completely different planet than it's ever been. So you have these folks who have the capacity to be competitive at a World Cup level, and they just like take a season off or go on a short rock trip, like in the offseason or something, and they're bringing this insane capacity to the stone and doing things like this where you're like, wow, that's like a whole year for a professional climber only 10 years ago or something like that, is just this woman's long weekend.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Did you all catch that little clip that I did, Giovanni Placci, where he made some statement that was basically like competition climbers are in better shape than anyone else. And what he went on, that was the clickbait that got people upset. Um, but what he was really saying is what you were saying, Will, where they have just a capacity and volume that is unmatched. And you know, the kind of thing he said he learned from Jakob and Andra was that you kind of had to get weaker in order to send at your limit, in the sense that you couldn't maintain that volume. You had to apply the your focus onto a specific hard project router or boulder, and that almost by definition, that lowered your volume and your ability across climbing and hyper-specialized on that specific thing. And so it kind of gives credence to what you're saying there, Will, where it's like they have that capacity and they go out. And for them, the stuff isn't that hard in the sense that there's a reason why they can do she did, you know, three V14s and a V15 in a day or two. It's because that kind of level may have been high a while ago, but it didn't take her all. She had the broad capacity to just go out and send hard. And had she maybe focused, I don't know, I don't want to play, you know, uh, you know, who knows what could happen if you take someone like that and then give them two, three months on a specific project uh boulder or route.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Well, I mean that that trade-off is very real. Like as the stimulus is more general, like the volume is kind of okay. But when you start doing like a very specific thing over and over again, and you're taxing that very same tissue in the very same way over and over, the volume has to drop. Um, and like, you know, that's the phenomenon you end up feeling when you are neck deep in one of these like long projects. You're like, well, I'm doing better on this project, but because I'm having to put so much focus into this one thing, other things like inevitably have to fall by the wayside. And so you're going to, you know, lose some of these other capacities that you used to have. At the end of the day, that stuff comes back pretty quick. So it's not like a huge trade-off, but you know, depending on where an athlete is relative to their competitive cycle and whatnot. Like, I definitely understand these folks being like, oh, well, I'm just gonna go out and climb a bunch of stuff like just submax because I have this insane capacity. And what's more fun than climbing a ton of amazing world-class bowler problems? Or like, am I gonna like buckle down on one thing and you know, potentially lose my mind, lose a bit of my fitness? Is this just the off-season? Am I taking the whole comp season off? Like, I don't know. Those are sort of the I imagine that the choices they're making uh when these things come around.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah, my question for you is that it's interesting how when you narrow things down and you focus on one specific route or boulder, we'll say it asks of you uh something that your tissues or wherever the thing may be can't handle. And that's why you're projecting it, and you are exposing a more narrow and specific demand on your capabilities in order to achieve success on that uh route. Then when you go back, you do bring some kind of higher level that you achieved in that specific domain. Um, and you know, it's interesting to think about how you want to progress as a climber because it's like, do we just expose ourselves consistently to a myriad of demands and bring up everything? Or like, is it good to go out, find something that stretches your limit in a very specific way? By definition, you can't just show up and do and like kind of push your peaks um in these different areas rather than just bring them all up like almost uh congruently. Uh, you know, it's kind of a it's a different way of approaching things. And historically, people didn't really think about this stuff at all. They just got pulled into whatever project they wanted to do. But now it's like it's two pathways, like that's kind of like a comp climbing pathway. Expose yourself to a myriad of challenges, and who knows what you're gonna come across on game day, or like very targeted, like this is endurance where I'm gonna have to put everything aside, but I'll come back, and my endurance on steep overhanging limestone will be you know a notch up.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

I think it's interesting. I feel like it's it's not like what's better necessarily one way or the other. I feel like some athletes just like one versus the other, like some just don't aren't super into the you know, bang your head against the wall for 200 and whatever days it took for Elias to climb uh V18. And some people just want to do things in five or six days or less, and like that's what they like about climbing, and they like that level of challenge, and that's you know, they have the capacity from like years of training and years of being in the World Cup to do hard things still at that level. But like, I mean, yeah, I think it's not to say that any of those are better or worse. It's just I think some athletes are okay with and like not having to sit under something for days on end, and others like me being one of them. Like, I think it's a super annoying strength, so to speak, but I'm not like opposed to sitting day after day under the same thing until I do it. Um, but I think that's just like my personality and part of my character traits as an athlete. And some people just don't enjoy that, and that's not like where they want their goals to be. I mean, maybe if I could climb V15 and three four V14s in three days, uh I it would be different. Um, I would assume that that would be pretty fun to be doing, but yeah, I think it just sort of depends on the athlete. Like some people some athletes like that, and some athletes just don't for whatever reason. They don't they don't like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

How has your uh your wide compression uh focus been going? Were you talking to me or Alison? Allison Allison's been Allison's been on like the the compression path for for a little bit now. I mean you've done some really sick hard compression boulders.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Yeah, I I'm psyched. Like I I think that tendency of mine to be okay with like going to the same thing over and over again really helped because it was like a huge learning curve. Um that's not like a style that I would see in the World Cups or like any of my competition history at all. Like, one, that style is weird, and two, if I was ever in a position where I was so spanned, like the boulder was impossible for everybody else. So like I literally was just never in that position in any sort of way when I was either training or competing. Um, so it was it, yeah, it was a really steep learning curve. And on some of the like properly hard boulders I did that were pretty spanned, like it was a lot of days of doing literally zero moves on a boulder and just like being interested enough in the learning curve to come back for days on end until I was able to do it. But yeah, I mean it's been cool.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Was there like an instigating thing that made you want to start doing that? Like what got you particularly psyched on that like wide compression style?

SPEAKER_00 17:50

I think it was two things. I mean, I think one was I was also trying this uh V14 boulder in Little Cottonwood called mantra, which is like three moves on just like knife blades. Um and I have you know, I have strong fingers too, so that that like that served me well on that boulder. But it was also like power crimping, which is not necessarily a strength of mine. Like I'm pretty weak at pulling, so a lot of that type of movement, especially the last move on that boulder, was really hard for me to learn and get better at. And I ended up getting like 50 days deep on it or something, I can't remember before I actually did it. And it's three moves on razors. So you'd like go show up for a day, feel really good, split, bleed everywhere, rest for a week, go show up, split, like just over and over again on the same boulder. And I learned that like compression boulders and like quote unquote, I've been calling them big boy boulders, are just fun. Like they're the colds are good, like your skin stays good. I you feel wrecked afterwards because it's always like a full body experience. But I think it was like a a relief to be projecting things that weren't so horrible. Like my, I mean, I I did enjoy some parts of projecting mantra, but once I was like over 20-something sessions, I was just like, this is like this is heinous. And so to be able to like intersperse other boulders that were fun to climb on and that I could leave without bleeding and be really open to showing up to a boulder and focusing on learning and not feeling like I did on mantra where I showed up every time, and if I didn't end up on top of the boulder, I just felt terrible about myself. Like it was really cool to have a completely separate experience on other styles of boulders where I really felt like a beginner again, in the sense that like you know, slapping the next hold and like getting the distance was like the biggest win ever, versus yeah, being on something like mantra where I like I knew I could do it. It was only a matter of time. I had to piece it together. It was all in my head, it was a miserable experience, it was freezing cold every single time I tried it. Like all in every day on that boulder, I was like started having a really bad time. So I think that was actually what really pushed me to like be okay with having a learning experience again. Because I honestly I was like craving it to be like, I know everything I know on this mantra boulder, and I still can't freaking do it. To then go to these other boulders where it's like, I know nothing about this style and like I have everything to learn. Um, and I think that really like pushed me to be okay with with like yeah, being a newbie again on a style of climbing.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

And did it feel like I mean, because you're going into that, like you were already no stranger to difficult bouldering? Like, how did how did your experience of you know, mantra v14, like, were you going straight to V14 quote unquote big boy boulders, or was there like were you like having to start at a lower level and kind of build up? How was that experience? How'd that play out?

SPEAKER_00 20:55

I mean, that's a good question. Like, I think in some, you know, to some capacity, I already had like the strength requirements, like it wasn't crazy out of the realm of possibility to be going up to eight B boulders that were in a different style. Um I had to be I like I said, I had to be okay with like doing nothing on them for a few days on almost every single one of them. Like I would show up and do literally zero of the moves. But I did have like they were interspersed with uh there's actually they it is taking a long time, but there there is like a full Mad Rock film coming out of all of the big boy boulders altogether.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

Oh man, there are super cool.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

It's gonna be really sick. I'm very excited. Little teaser. I don't know when it's coming out, but it's gonna be awesome. So that'll have, yeah, like Buka Bookabuka and Fisheye and the Expanse. Um, and then I think there's like a couple more V10 level boulders that are still super spanned. And so, like, I I think I would just be more open to like trying things at a lower level that had big spans on them. But for the most part, I mean, I think it's it's like I'm not surprised I did this, but I did end up just like going to the hard boulders and just sitting there until I did them.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Well, you started off by saying that different athletes get you know interested in different things and that you kind of have to follow that path. And and it's something that I always recommend. I mean, maybe just because it's what I do, but the best training, whatever training means to you, is like the thing you actually like doing. Like, so I really do like board climbing and you can call it training, but I probably just call it training because it's the thing I actually want to do to train. Like I don't have to like I I like can't hang board. I can't. I just don't. I don't know. Like sometimes at the end of a session, if people want to play like what stupid human trick can you do? And like, can you one arm hang off this? I'll do that. But a regimented thing, like I just can't stick to. Uh, and the reason why I wasn't sure if you were talking to me, Will, about spanny compression is that I've been working on that block that you guys uh even thought about maybe booking a trip to come join me. And it's spanny compression. Still thinking about it compression. Big deal. Still thinking about it for sure. So Alison, I literally, even my hardest sends I've done often in 15 minutes or a session. Like I just either I do a boulder or I don't. And I went out to this thing a few times, and it's awesome. Um, but I kind of like I pulled some of my pads uh because I couldn't do a move. Um, and I got really close on it, but it's like my toe hooks keep popping, and man, I hate toe hooks. Uh and then I like did the link into the move and it was like hard. And I did the link after the move, and I was like, that's pretty hard too. And I just started getting my head like, well, if I feel wrecked and limit just getting to this move, I haven't even done the move yet. You know, like how long do I have to come out here to do it? And although it's really cool, I'm out there on my own, it needs like eight pads. It's an hour and a half drive or hour 45-minute drive for me plus a 45-minute hike. And I was just like, wow, like it's like five hours total each day of like getting out there by myself. And like, should I be doing like if I had a site crew, I might feel differently. But yeah, I mean, just going back to that idea of like, you gotta enjoy it. Like, where are we doing? Where are we doing? Yeah, we'll have fun.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

It's super interesting to hear that because like I I think folks, especially if they're they're newer to climbing in general, like and and even yourself, like you're kind of you're expressing this sort of inner conflict of that projecting process where you're like, is there any point in me actually trying this? Or is this just so futile? And like I think that can be helpful to hear, like for newer climbers who are going through that, like that that conflict kind of never stops happening. You even after climbing for decades, like you still will go up to things and be like, damn, like I didn't do any moves today. Like, should I should I be here? Should I be trying this climb? Is this a productive use of my time? When is this gonna feel better? Is that even possible? Uh, because like I like on one hand, there are these very real situations where it's like for any given climber at any given point in time, like trying Boulder X is like, no, it's not a good use of time. There's some gap in kind of the skill set being brought to that climb that's like developing it here is maybe not reasonable. And like backing off, keeping the same goal, potentially picking a few other intermediary things that then build you and get you to that thing is like the quote unquote better path forward. Or sometimes it is one of those things where no, it just needs a little bit more kind of suspension of your disbelief and like a couple more sessions, because you can, as Allison just said, you can go to a boulder and you can literally not do a single move. And in a matter of five, ten, however many sessions, all of a sudden, like you go from literally not doing a single move to I can do the entire thing that I just did. And that's a an experience that I feel like the more you go through, the better you are at kind of understanding where these different challenges lie. And I've gone to boulders and done almost every move and been like, actually, this is years off. And gone to other boulders and only done a couple moves, but been like, actually, because of whatever circumstance, like I know that I'm gonna be able to progress on this relatively quickly. Um, but that's just such a it's it's kind of a mind fuck. Like you hear any like pro athlete talk about it. I feel like it's it's a common sentiment. And it's something that you even day one climbing, you're already kind of dealing with that self-doubt. And I don't know, it's interesting. It's a it's a battle you kind of never stop fighting.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

I feel like it's like a hard thing to assess, also, like and you know, like anything, there's like a limit to it. Like I this spring I tried Moonlight Sonata a little bit in Joe's Valley just to see. That's like I mean, to it's to some level, at least in this area, that's like the final boss, Big Boy Boulder, for sure. And yeah, I was trying it a little bit with uh Jimmy Webb was around in the spring, and so he was like trying it a little bit with me. And normally he's like very supportive of your client, like he's sort of the one to be like, oh no, you can like oh that was close enough on that move, like you can do it, totally do it. You're you know, good to go. And sort of like towards the end of the session, I think I still I had done zero moves on the boulder, and he just was like, Maybe maybe you just like put a pin in this one for a bit. Like he was like, maybe this is not you should do some other boulders before we come back here again. Uh but I mean, I think that like is something that I like sometimes. You need somebody else to be like, this is like this is like out of the realm right now, and like somebody to tell you what Will just said in a way that's like, I'm not gonna like I'm not gonna take that personally, but like that was a good thing to for him to point out. Like, is this the best use of your time right now to like learn more in this style? Like, you maybe should build up your base more and do a bunch more boulders that are similar to this in a wide, you know, a more wide compression-y style, and then work your way back up. And then if you're still psyched, you could come back and try something like this. Like, and having like people around you like that who are willing to help you sort of figure out what is worth spending your time on and what is not. Um, I mean, actually, new beta was just unlocked on Moonlight, so that does intrigue me.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Yeah, but some money just I did.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

I actually I tried that, and it is crazy. You're like fully upside down foot lead. And I tried that and was like, nah, like this is like so scary, and like I this is there's no this is so stupid. I don't know why I'm trying this. Um, so now it's interesting because there's proof of concept.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Well, by the way, uh the new beta that we unlocked on I feel like I should just say the block. I I I like have Carlo in my head. This will be we'll see if Carlo hears this uh in my head about like don't talk about a boulder unless you've done it kind of thing. Like, because yeah, he like has this old school style of like well, I just talk about moonlight too, so you're all good. Maybe that's Carl, that's the word moonlight. Okay. Uh motorhead is what I've been trying. And actually, uh Ethan Pringle was out here and he figured out beta to flip your body the other way, so your toes are where most people's hands are and you're fully inverted. It's super cool. And and it is really nice to have someone around that can actually know you and know what you're capable of. And actually, this happened to me when I started rope climbing, where I would go up something that was hard for me, and I'd be like, oh man, like this is impossible. Like, no way can I do this. I'd come down and be like, oh dude, you're gonna do it like next go. You did all the moves, you know, like the the idea of what's possible is sometimes like you're tired or you don't realize the subtlety and having a cheerleader to you know kind of help you understand when to move forward or or to to pull you back.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Um sometimes you're out of your realm and you just yeah, you need somebody to like there. I mean, especially with the the OG moonlight betas, like this giant, and to be fair, the new beta that was found, you maybe need like a six-foot span instead of a six foot two span. So it's still quite morpho, but uh still a big boy boss, yeah. Still a big boy boulder. But the uh the original beta has like a campus in the middle, like it's like a full span campus move. And I couldn't even hang the holts like just off the ladder that you're supposed to do the campus move off of. Um, and I think that was when he was like, um, you know what? Maybe we should like you should take a step back and not your way back up here.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Everything about Jimmy is in the best way and friendly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Uh well, and that's how you know too, is usually it's so like, no, you got that. Like you can do that for you for sure can do that. And so, like to have him like in a classic, like kind of tiptoe around way, just be like, Yeah, maybe maybe you pause. Like, he didn't say also don't like you can't do that. He just was like, maybe take a break and like try some other things first.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

I want to ask one more question on this, and maybe this one is more directed at you, Will, since it sounds like you've encountered this situation often. And in my anecdote where I'm saying that, I'm like, ah, like I'm on that that fence of do I want to dedicate the time? Um, and you know, there's a big factor of like literally access and just the hike, and like I only have so much time. And then also because it's not like a big crew, like I'm out there solo. I feel like if I had my friends there, I'd be like, ah, good times no matter what. Um, but one of the struggles I'm having is that typically I know when I can do a move, even if I haven't done it, like I just have this like feeling, yeah, it's like powerful, or you know, oh, I can like tickle the hold, and I can maybe I can I can touch the hold and I can deadhang it. So it's like there's I just have to put those two together. This one is like these weird toe hooks, which I'm historically really bad at. And like because I don't understand this technique as well, there's like a subtlety where sometimes my toe will stay and sometimes it won't. Sometimes I'll try a new shoe and it seems to be better, but then it doesn't work for down low. And it just feels like it's this subtlety and these like minutiae that it's hard for me to know if I just stack them up if I'll do the move, because it's like it's not like a physical thing exactly. It's like these blind toe hooks and getting it just right. And then sometimes I stumble upon something that works really well, but then I can't recreate it. And so it's more frustrating to me than the kind of like, oh, I'm strong enough. Like I just got, yeah. And so it's outside my wheelhouse. And so, what's your experience with dealing with uncertainty, but having confidence when there's probably a way for me, but it feels way outside my wheelhouse on how do I get from point A to point B.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Yeah, that's that's interesting. I because I almost am like the inverse of that oftentimes. Like when I run into situations like you're talking about, I'm like, it's almost like a behavior change, you know? Like all I have to do is put my foot perfectly there. And then when I do, it works and and we're good. And so I'm like, I find that I more quickly progress in those styles because like I'm I can start dialing in all of that subtle stuff, and and the thing that I feel like I'm typically good at is dialing in all that subtle stuff and then being able to just execute the whole thing. Where when I run into something where I'm like, dang, like I actually like like I totally get it, but I physically like to what you're talking about, Allison, it's like you could push me up in there, and I just literally cannot hold the position. Like, I do not possess the physical strength. Like, those are the things where I'm like, well, if I want to do something about that, that is I I start thinking in like training cycles. I'm like, is this gonna take me five weeks, 10 weeks, like two years? Like, at what point do I feel like I can bring a physical capacity up to like satisfy this demand? And so though that's more where like, I'm like, okay, if I come back to this like three times and I still like cannot even just hold this position, that might be something I need to like back off on because it's just not there. And and there's a certain level of challenge that's like beyond to a point where it's just practically not very useful. Where like what you're talking about, I'm like, oh, hell yeah, dive in. Like, why are you giving up on that? Like, if you're physically capable of doing it, all it is, like you know, quote unquote, all it is, is you just have to execute perfectly, which is a thing that you can learn how to do. And the more you interact with that thing, the better you're gonna get at that. So good.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

I uh the the the one like nuance I want to add there is that I think I more clearly understand what I'm physically capable and then know that like everything has to line up perfectly, but physically I can do this where technically on certain rock types or styles that I maybe haven't gone as deep, like I don't know if I understand how much better technique and time spent adjusting it will lower the level. Like I'm less aware, like, is it really gonna drop a full two grades or is it like just a tiny little bit?

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Does that make sense? Dude, like it's one of my favorite kind of sensations, I feel like, in climbing are these scenarios where it so I really lean in on this stuff. Like when I'm confused or I don't know, or like, I don't know, man. Like, really? Like, is that gonna work? Like, it how good can I get at that? Because like right now if it feels limited isolation. Is there really a world in which I can do five moves into this and five moves afterwards that are all really hard? And like the answer so far for me has just always been yes. Like it it is so mind-boggling, even decades in, like, how how different something can feel like across even a relatively short time span and number of sessions, like as, or sometimes you have no movement for like five sessions, and then you're like, oh, like what if I like turn my hand just like a little bit, and then I'm like on this crystal, and then my thumb goes here, and you're like, oh shit, now it's easy. Like I literally spent five days not doing anything. I turned my hand like half a degree and put my thumb here, and now I just do the move. Like that, I love that shit. I think it's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Yeah, like I I mean, it was like two years ago now when I did Buka Booka Booker in St. George. Um, and it was the bit, it's like a giant jump move, is like the first of two moves essentially. And it's funny, for some people that move is like the easy move, and for some people it's the the end is easier. So for me, the end was always like the easy part to figure out, and it was that big jump move. And upon first glance, it's literally you're jumping between two holts that are pretty good. Uh, and it was the position of my thumb that changed the I was like 12 sessions deep or something, and my thumb needed to be like slightly higher and and more engaged, and I did it the next try after like 12 days on the boulder. I put my thumb in a different spot and I was just able to do it, and I sent the boulder that very same day. I totally, I mean, I totally relate to Will in that, in that you just never know. I think, I mean, when we're going back to talking about some athletes just don't like that, like they don't like that projecting process, and I think that's like fine. That's a different experience of climbing, of not getting that deep on a boulder. But I think like for me, I don't have the physical strength, like especially with pulling, to just be able to pull through moves like that. Like, I need the tiny technical moments of where to put your thumb and how to turn your ankle, and like that, I can't climb very well without that. Like, I I definitely like need that aspect of it to be able to climb hard boulders. I'm not strong enough to just jump between holds and not think about it. So I think it just is a different, yeah, everybody has their own unique experience within climbing, which is cool, but also frustrating.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Uh I just want to say thanks to both of you. I will go back out and uh try again. And if I fail, I'll also uh blame on you guys. Um something that I want to point out is that although it sounds like I'm more geared towards just being like, oh, I just want to physically be able to do it. And there is an element of that I I do like just moving and just I like feeling strong and having that stress. But I want to bridge that gap that you're saying there, Allison, where I think that fundamentally it's always about making whatever you're doing as easy as possible, even if you're talking about like weightlifting or whatever, like they're not like, oh, I'm just a strong, I just gotta get stronger. It's like the expression of strength is always through making it as easy as possible. There is and this goes back to like the the Patreon bonus question we did last time, but I I just I guess I'm I'm trying to point this out to myself where it's like I don't want to think to myself, oh, I'll never try to find the best technique. I'll just try to get stronger because what strength is, is that application of putting your thumb in the right place and then utilizing it. And that's your true expression of strength is how what can you do when everything is perfect.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Yeah, and I I think it's it's one of those things that I think early on in climbing and even pretty deep in climbing, like is a it seems like this dichotomy. It seems like there is strength and there is technique, and there's these two realms in which a person can progress. And I think like I don't want to totally do away with that idea, because I think for a big chunk, like it it practically it kind of makes sense to discuss things in that way. But especially as the climber is operating towards their limit, like specifically their limit, if your limit is v4, then I'm talking about v4. As soon as you're getting towards the limit of that individual climber, the difference between those two things, it bec it is one thing. Um and it can cook your noodle a little bit to think about that. But there there is a point at which the productivity of the concept of there being two things, strength and technique, does eventually break down. It's useful, but it's not always useful. Um so just just throwing that out there. It's kind of a callback to the thing that we were talking about that that last episode. And and it this is sort of what we're talking about, is really that in practice. Um, and you know, when you do see somebody come through and quote unquote like climb a boulder poorly, or like with bad technique, like like whatever that means, you know, you're you're either you're not understanding the technique that is actually being applied, or that thing is lower than that person's limit enough to where like the the margin for error just doesn't matter. Um and that can mean a lot of different things for a lot of different athletes. And so it's it's tough like outside looking in, knowing what's actually going on. So like I would caution people against just viewing a performance and making that judgment on it, because it can be really tough to tease those things out just from like especially watching somebody send. Like, watching somebody send is in a way like one of the most uninformative things you can ever watch because like that is them freaking doing it. And like it's cool to watch, but you know, I Rustom made like a uh fun, I'm gonna butcher, I don't know the quote I'm paraphrasing, but after he did uh Hypnotized Minds, like in the summer, and it looked so easy, like it's one of the craziest bits of climbing footage. Uh, especially if you've got a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

In fact, I was there, I was spotting, I'm in that video. Oh, you were there?

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Holy shit. That must have been so cool to see in person. But it was basically like like yeah, when you watch a master work, like it looks easy, and it does. And but like, man, like the history of that boulder problem speaks for itself. So be careful just interpreting what you're watching. Allison, you got to tell us about that day. Please, please provide some more color.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

So sick. It was so cool. I mean, I wasn't really like into climbing outside at that point, like it was like my first climbing trip, but it was after the Vale World Cup. So it was the summer, like it was June. Um messed up. Which now I'm like, that was crazy. At the time, I was like, ah, this is you know, it's pleasant now. That's cool. Um but yeah, I mean, he just like he did it in old school, like flat Anastasis. So that was also crazy. Like the cardboard flat sole anastasis. And he just like he just showed up and he put his shoes on. I think he pulled on one time and tried it and fell, and then rested and I think just did it like second try of that day. Just like he sort of just sat on the pads and like looked at his hands and was like totally in the zone, and then just did it no problem. And I think I can't remember exactly what he said when he topped out, but it was something like for me, this is the perfect style, or something. Like it was like his perfect boulder. So it was I mean, yeah. It was honestly is exactly what Will's talking about. It was like watching somebody who's just the master in that style and that type of climbing just be able to execute and yeah, make I mean it looked, it literally could have been V7. Like if I didn't know and I hadn't seen the holds and I had no idea what was going on, and I like, like Will said, saw the video, I would be like, oh yeah, that you know, that looks like a good mod for Rustam. Like it literally is, literally looked like that in person too. Um, but yeah, I mean to bring it back like that, I totally agree with Will. Like that's just you know, saying that even like relating it back to me, like saying that I'm not strong enough to be able to just like jump between holds, that doesn't mean that like somebody who is strong enough to be doing that isn't like using any technique or like learning any skill. That just might be their style of climbing. And if I'm gonna branch out and be able to climb in that style, I'm gonna need to learn all the tricks to be able to like quote unquote keep up. Um, you know, like if I were to ever if I were to ever climb hypnotized mines, it would probably look a lot different than if than Rust M doing it in June.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

So uh coincidentally, I had like a little reminder pop up on my reminders app, and it asked me, uh, it's been one year, have two more people done hypno? And I can't remember if it was on a good tempse, but I was talking to someone, might have been the wheeler, I don't know who it was. Maybe it was good tempse, but I made some argument. I thought hypnotized minds would be done two more times, and I don't think it got done even once. Because I had heard some rumors of certain people who were Zach did it. Very Zach did it, and I thought Noah was working on it and close, but I don't know if he ended up uh finishing it off.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

I don't know if he went back to it. I feel like that would be stuck in my brain. That's like one of the cooler hard boulder problems, I feel like that that's out there, especially in Colorado. I mean, I I think it's kind of the the holy grail. Like people do a lot of hard boulders in Colorado, but not that one. And it couldn't be easier to get to. You know, it's like it's you know, more I feel like is this right or wrong? I don't know. Well, certain like more people have like walked all the way up and done creature in upper than have done like a boulder that is you know supposedly the same grade and is like spitting distance from the car with a perfectly flat landing. So uh you know, I I I just think boulders like that kind of stand out where you're like, well, what's what's stopping you from doing it? Because it's pretty hard.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Uh I I wanted to say one more thing about that whole idea of when you see people at their limit, it looks smooth and good, and maybe there's not that much information. You said, Well, I kind of wanted to push against that where I was injured and just watching sweet, sweet videos of myself when I wasn't injured, just climbing hard boulders. I just loved watching myself. Very weird. Um, and something that I took from it though is that somewhere along the way I realized, wow, whenever you do a boulder, Josh, it looks really easy. And the thing that I took from that was that I knew it wasn't easy. I was there, it was hard as hell for me. Um, but it's like my drop knee would be dropped a little bit more, my heel hook would be pointed, my toe would be pointed a little bit more, my hips would be a little bit closer. And it always made me think that like whenever I do beta or I do a move, I like trying to imagine like taking it one notch further. Like it sounds dumb, like, oh, it's just a drop knee. It's like, yeah, but like, are you really dropping your knee? Are you really sucking your hips in? Is that foot really extended? And just good beta or good technique is often like turned up a notch from it's like, yeah, I'm doing the drop knee. And like you may look like it from the outside, but like I don't know, there's something there about like a master at drop knee is doing it different from a beginner, even though their feet are in the same place. Like there's little subtleties, and so that's something I learned from watching my send videos is to kind of like really embrace whatever technique or move to and turn it up.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Yeah, I've got I've got two things on that. One you're right on. Like, I think uh, you know, in my past of like teaching people how to rock climb, exactly what you're talking about is a tool I would use of like exaggerate it, like heel hook, like turn your knee even more, or drop your knee even more, or like we're trying to like jump across, jump across like so far that you're like, there's no way this works. And oftentimes, like it's it is that where like you think you're doing the thing, but you're not quite doing enough. And and a lot of the time, like you know, outside of you know, don't put yourself in a scenario where you're gonna get injured, but like you don't know where that line is until you cross it. And a lot of folks are further away from from the line than they think they are, and and exaggerating and trying to like you know find the limit of what that movement can produce is really educational. And then the other thing that I don't know if I've said it on on this before or whatever, but if people know me, you've heard this. Like it feels easy when you're trying as hard as you can, not as hard as you want to. And I think that's like a phenomenon that like I run, I still run into like when I'm working on climbs that are hard for me. And I'm sure we all have felt this where you're trying something and then you finally do it, and you're like, oh wow, oh my gosh, that felt easy. You come back like the next session or something like that, and you like all of a sudden can't do it anymore because you're like, it felt easy, and you're trying it like it should be as easy as it felt that time, where the reason it felt easy the time you did it is because you were trying as hard as you fucking could. And so then doing it and then having this perception in your head of, oh, the move's easy now. Then when you go back to trying it, you're trying it like it's easy. And the reality is it's hard. You're just trying to make it feel easy. Anyway, like it's kind of a reminder to myself when I end up in those scenarios or have those sessions, is like, oh, right. Remember, like it is a hard move, it is a hard boulder problem. If I want it to feel easy, it's because I have to be at 10. And then that's when that kind of easy sensation happens, but it doesn't mean I'm trying less hard.

Support From Patreon

SPEAKER_02 50:28

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who helped make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else. And those episodes are ad-free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay, back to the pod. Allison, you want to add anything before we cover some of the other amazing things that happened this month?

SPEAKER_00 51:05

No, but can we just re-talk about how my first ever real climbing trip I was there when Rustum did Hypno Paz Lens? I had no idea at the time that that was like I was like, oh, this wow, that boulder was really hard. Like I just had zero concept of any of anything that was happening around. I mean, I knew obviously that he was climbing V16, like I know what that means, but I had no context of like what hypno was, that that was not normal, that that was like gonna be the craziest thing I'd ever see in my life.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Like I just was that is that is actually really that is insane, actually. I like I imagine the context of what you saw was like developed over time afterward. Because that was completely nuts.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Uh like years, like it was years later when I was like, wow, that was really crazy. That's a crazy thing to be there for randomly.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

We have this uh term, or we being me and some friends, uh, that if you belay someone on a hard send, it's called blue pointing it. It's like, yes, like how hard do you blue point? Like, is that your best witness boulder send, Alice? I don't know what you call we'd have to come up with a cool name for that, but like that's classic.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

100 100%. That's my like for sure my craziest spotting moment. Also, like I had I did my first V9 on that trip. Like, I just was like so it was like so outside. Uh it's right there. It's next to that boulder.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

It's the like the high stare to Veritas.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Yeah, no, no, I think it's like the that's like the shitty one to the right.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

Oh, to the right.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

That was my first V9.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

I think it's like one move and kind of yeah, like one or two moves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

Nice. Well, what was your first V9? Yeah. My first V9? Yeah, dude. I don't remember. I have no idea. I re I I uh Flash Flash Gordon, Flash Gordon in Arkansas. I like was either my first 10 or one of my first nines, depending on how hard you think that that boulder problem is. Uh that's that's maybe the only one I can remember. Yeah, something like that. I'm old. It's not because I'm good, it's because I'm old.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

Mine, mine got talked about earlier. It's fear of a black hat in Red Hunts. That was my first one. Oh, that's a sick one. I was psyched. Very, very psyched.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

But yeah, cool times. That was like there was a whole World Cup squad there after from all different countries.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

I mean, that's kind of happening right now, like after this Salt Lake World Cup, like everybody's out here. Ritsu just did Defying Gravity both ways, which is a huge risk.

SPEAKER_00 53:52

For the fun of it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Yeah, and then and then did No One Mourns the Wicked the other day.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

So sick.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

No big deal. And that's just like one of many things that is crazy that is going on right now with all these highway.

SPEAKER_00 54:07

Both did it.

SPEAKER_01 54:08

And Simone was just here like over the summer and did a bunch of stuff and then just did uh Moonlight Sonata.

Lara Neumeier Makes The First Female Ascent Of Rhapsody E11

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Moonlight.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Well, okay, so should we start listing some of the crazy things? Should we talk about it? Yeah. I mean, the so first Laura Newmeyer, first female Ascent of Rhapsody, like Rhapsody is insane. Um, I think is it E11, that old Dave McLeod move? Like, I had that on DVD. I watched it a bazillion times. So, like, the thing that in my opinion, like, makes Rhapsody Rhapsody is like this final run out where it's like some honestly like marginal gear. I mean, you watch the video, like, clearly it's good enough because it's holding these huge whips, but it is not confidence inspiring, and like it has ripped before. Yeah, someone broke a nut on it. Didn't Billy Reidel? Yeah, Billy did. Okay, no big deal. So like fully just can happen, and like that's a huge fall. And like, and and you're you really I mean, correct me if I'm wrong in the comments, but like sure the climbing eases up, but you are into groundfall zone when you're topping out. At least slab. I mean, you're definitely gonna hit, I mean, like you're gonna fully probably break something.

SPEAKER_02 55:25

Well, didn't Dave McLeod break his ankle on it?

SPEAKER_01 55:29

Not at the very, very top, like no, just like from like that. Fall is no joke. Like, even just like you know, the pro holds great. Like, yeah, you're not decking, but you can still get super hurt. It's a lot of air time. Um, and that climbing is like that that crux climbing it just looks so insecure. And the I mean, the footage of her on it is so sick. Uh like anyway, I thought that was just crazy impressive and was so cool to see that route sort of back in the limelight because that was like very influential to me as a younger climber. And the fact that it's still like this kind of insane route is is rad. And yeah, anyway, I was hyped on that for sure.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

I feel like to even just tie that back to what we were just talking about, like it's always so impressive when you see people do things that are like not your strengths, and that can look like jumping between holds, but also like I mean, I definitely am have always historically been more on the like timid side, even as like a boulderer when it comes to like topping things out that are tall or like whatever that looks like. So like fear is something that I've had to work on a lot and then I've like been working on actively in my climbing right now. So it's always so cool to see like the upper echelon of like that skill being executed. Like that, that to me is what always just like blows my mind more than anything is like to see somebody who's doing something that is like an identified weakness for me at that level. It just makes it like so much more impressive and and yeah, I feel like you just have moments where you're like, damn, like me, I'm really proud of the work I've done to like improve in that department, but also just the the limit to what you're able to do when you start being able to get that under control and really have your head screwed on right from like a fear standpoint. It's just really cool to see.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

I I think because I know climbing well enough, I this happens only in climbing and not when I watch something scary like in mountain biking or something. But sometimes I'll watch videos of her on Rhapsody or uh Dave McLeod's also been posting a bunch of his free solos lately in like the 8B range. And I'll have these moments as I'm watching where I like imagine what it must be like. Like yeah, you see the holes, you can like see the run out, you just kind of like get teleported for a moment, and it like freaks me out. Like I have these moments of like like panic and fear, and I just I can't believe what they're doing up there on such difficult movement. I think that's what and then being able to like really lock in. And I do also feel like no matter what your level of uh fear or not, what's your objective level of danger that you're exposing yourself to, regardless of your subjective experience of fear, those moments where you do lock in are really special. Like, you know, where you're like, no, I'm scared, but I'm doing it. And like I those are wonderful moments in climbing and good for her, good for her. Beautiful line, too. I just straight up the gut of such an impressive feature. I I'm a big uh David McLeod fan, and that book he wrote about doing E11. I can't remember uh what's it called? I don't know. I didn't I haven't read that. You haven't read his book?

SPEAKER_01 58:43

No, somewhat I just watched the movie. He it's it's something about like how yeah, I just watched the movie and did my book report. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:53

Well, uh I encourage I encourage everyone to read it because it's got a lot of cool pictures, and it takes you on kind of like the journey of Dave McLeod's young life pushing like Guy had some wild moments earlier in his career. It takes you all the way through him doing Rhapsody E11. And um, you know, so that might give you a very detailed feeling of what she probably went through, which is it's cool. So good job. And that that was just just one thing next. Um, well, I mean, there's this climb call any anyway, so next just E11, yeah. No big deal.

Adam Ondra Downgrades Exodia To V17

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Uh so last time we had good temps, I mentioned that uh Alamantra was trying Exodia. I had done an interview with Elliot.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

You heard her here first. Make sure you don't miss an episode of Good Temps. We're dropping knowledge. You want to hear it first? You better tune in.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

Tell me. Can we like clip that and just like that's our like intro always? Um and so I was doing this pod with Elliot, and I had heard through the rumor mill that Adam was out there trying it. I'm talking to Elliot, and he then he like says it on air like Adam was out here, he was doing stuff, and I thought, wow, that's big news. But I also wanted to reach out to Adam and make sure that he was okay with us, you know, putting that out there because I don't know, just I thought that was big enough news that they might wanted to keep under their hat. But yeah, Adam sent me a video of him on it and he just walked it. Like I saw him from three moves in and he just walked it and looked so good on it. And it was no big surprise to me that he did, but four sessions was really, really quick. And I mean, the other big news I'm sure everyone, you know, has highlighted is not just that he did it, but that he called it v17, which you know, I I don't think was uh a big deal, but that's kind of been the the media stir around it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

Well, I mean the the thing is uh Adam calling it V17 doesn't make it any more V17 than Elias calling it V18 made it V18. Like it's a rock. It isn't V17, like it is a piece of stone. And like now we have another ascent of it, and that's how hard that guy thought. That guy happens to be Adam Andra. Make of that what you will, but like even Adam was like, yeah, if I spent 200 some days on something, it felt like the hardest, like he might have also proposed that grade. And he was also clear that, like, hey, on this move, like my toe stayed and I didn't have to cut, and that made it easier. And like it, it's just yeah, it's a rock. It's clearly one of the hardest boulder problems in the world. Adam did make relatively short work of it, but I don't know, man. I I feel like the top end of bouldering is super weird right now. And I like I I've heard it from a lot of the top-level boulders and from people who follow like it's just a weird thing. I feel like everybody who knows knows that no one is really all that sure the difference between 15 and 16 and 16 and 17, much less 17 and 18. And, you know, what used to be the case, you know, certainly like 20 years ago, and you know, it's phased from then to now, but like back in the day there were maybe five to ten dudes who were all doing all the same hardest boulder problems in the world, and it was relatively easy to come to a consensus, if you want to contextualize it like that. And like what's different now that I feel like is uh kind of undeniable is how many boulders are operating at that top level. And when you have a much bigger pool, you have more different morphologies, more different like individual strengths and weaknesses. Like we're finding new kinds of hard rock climbs. Like, on one hand, it's easy to sit back and be like, oh, none of this makes sense. Like it's this is either great inflation or grade compression or whatever. I feel like when I look at it, I'm like, it kind of just makes sense. Like, there's never been more top-level climbers than there have been. There's never been more like hard boulder problems or hard routes, and a lot of those are unrepeated. We'll talk about Jakob in a second. Like, it seems totally reasonable to me that we kind of don't really know what's going on. Because top-level climbing has never been like this before. Uh, we're strapped to the front of the train right now, like moving the sport forward and just trying to make sense of it as we go. And like it won't surprise me in the future if there's kind of a reshuffling of like the you know, top level 8C boulders and the 8C plus stuff and what we now are thinking is 9A. And like at some point, as things get more repeated and stuff becomes more solidified, I imagine we'll probably have a better idea. But I think it that's only frustrating if the only thing you care about in climbing is what the number attached to the accomplishment is. And like I just think that's not a good way to be a fan of climbing. And so, like, all the hubbub around the initial V18 proposition and this now, like, you know, Adams proposal of 17 in a lot of ways is the least interesting part of what's going on with that boulder. Like, it's this old Christian Korea project. Like, I want to know more about what Christian used to think about it. I still don't have like a good picture of the boulder in my mind. Is it on the side of a highway? Is it overlook a vineyard? Like, I just I want to learn more about the boulder. I want to see Adam's footage on it. Like, there's so many other cool things about what is represented by Exodia than like, oh, is it V17 or 18? Like, I don't care.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

Yeah, I mean, I think it's just it's like an interesting, it's like an impossible question with uh literally no answer. Like I think people talk about grades, like there's some correct answer. Like if it was a multiple multiple choice question, like is this V17 or is it V like that there's a somebody is right? Um, and I think that's just what's hard about the grading system is there's no there's like no objective quantifiers about anything. There's not like a book that you open and you're like, does it have this? Well then it's this. Does it have this thing? Well then it's like like it just is about how hard people feel like things are. And it's like what Will said is everybody has different strengths and weaknesses and different experiences on different days. Um and yeah, like Like he said, there's just so many people climbing hard boulders and things that are like confusing at every level. Like there's you know, V8s in Little Cottonwood that I'm like, wow, this literally feels impossible to me. But it got put up a long time ago when like V10 was the hardest boulder in the world. And so then, yeah, that V8 is probably pretty hard, or whatever the example is of that. But uh yeah, I mean, I think even us talking about hypnotized minds, which is theoretically two entire grades easier than Exodia and has very few ascents for how long it's been established. And so I think like even to climbers themselves, I think that's confusing. Um, I'm I'm obviously not pushing the sport at that upper echelon of grade level, but even like at the level of grades that I'm climbing, like I personally find that really confusing to like climb on a V11 and be like this literally feels impossible, like I'll never be able to do it in my life. And then I can also climb something that's like three grades harder. Like that, that to me, like even just personally feels confusing. And so I think if you expand that to the upper end range of bouldering, that also is probably something that if you're trying to decide, like, man, I've spent 200 and something days on this, it's probably the hardest thing in the world. Like that totally makes sense. And that is like what he thought in his experience. And like Will said, as everything shuffles, like maybe people will agree that it's not V18, but maybe it's the hardest V17 in the world, and it is the hardest boulder in the world, regardless of if somebody thinks it pushes it over the edge to be a different number. It's just it's like it's such a hard conversation for me because like it's impossible to be correct, like there's not a correct opinion.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:40

I really want to see Adam Andra come out and triepnotize minds now that you put that that kind of seed that out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:47

Um I would love to see that also. Adam?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

Yeah, it Adam Big Big Flash energy. Come on, Adam. Yeah. Oh, yeah, let's do it. Ooh, that's a comment.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:57

Uh I I think it's interesting that climbing somehow seems to attract people that love the very numeric side of it. This could be me spending a lot of time in the Bay Area, and like we got a lot of a big influx of like a more engineering type of personality. I think they really enjoyed the concreteness that they felt, whether it's true or not, of I did a V1, but then I did a V2, and V2 is harder than V1. So I have gotten better. Uh, and I think people really enjoy that theoretically objective analysis that they have gotten better. And, you know, typically that's a lived experience in a climbing gym or potentially going outside, and it's not exactly what happens uh in the grand scheme of things. And I think it's also why when we judge how good a climber is, you know, what I think we're all really impressed with are people who do everything. You know, it's it's uh it's impressive when someone does the the V11 that you know no one can do. Um, but this person flashed it. And yes, they do V15 and V16, but you know, if you meet someone and they've done one V17, one V16, one V15, one V14, one V13, you don't necessarily know what kind of climber they are. You're like, well, you're the kind of climber who kept going up, and that is impressive in its own right. But I think when we talk about quote unquote climbing or and climbing well, it's like, well, what rock type? Well, you know, was it power endurance? Was it crimpy? Was it a fridge block? Uh and I personally think it's all fun. I I like I don't know, I don't have a problem with the graying stuff. I think I've said it before, I'll say it again, you can't climb all the time. And so again to talk about climbing, play a little, you know, like trading card game about ranking the stats of who the best climber is and what they've done, like you know, what's a really hard V7 versus a really soft one. I just think it's all for fun. And so it's when people take it way too seriously that is, you know, when you talk to Adam about grades and this kind of stuff, he gives you his honest opinion and he means it, and it's with a big smile on his face, and then he goes and climbs more stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

Yeah, and I mean, I think when I say like obviously different grade experiences feel differently, I think I also mean that like at the lower grades now there's even more people climbing that level. And so like I do think there is something to be said about consensus arriving at a consensus grade and things sort of coming out in the wash. And as Will said, like as we move forward, things will probably shuffle around and end up at a more consistent place. But yeah, I mean, I I can imagine that that's just hard at the upper end. There's only a handful of boulders that are allegedly V17. Nobody has climbed all of them yet. Like maybe that maybe that's gonna be the person we trust most, whoever's the first one to do all the proposed V17s or 18s in the world. Um, but it's just hard. It's hard to contextualize things when you don't there's just there's like a lot of people climbing some of them, and there's not like one person who, like Will said, has been has climbed every single one. And so I think I also find it the most helpful beyond like what the actual number that gets tagged on to is. Like I find it the most helpful when somebody like Adam posts, I did this boulder, and I think it's harder than the other ones I've tried and the other ones I've done. Like I think that context is also almost more helpful than what great he thinks it is at the end of the day. Um, because that, I mean, that is the only way that we're ever going to be able to have any sort of consensus, is if people try all of them and somebody who has a good grasp on what's going on is able to even just like place the difficulty on a scale of like this is, I think this is harder than these for X, Y, Z reasons.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:52

I think I can share this where when I messaged with Adam about it, he said that it really did fit his style. And he thought that although Elias like put in a lot of time and climbed it really well, that it probably wasn't as much in his style as he thought in the first place. And you know, this is these are all these like just kind of little subtle differences that kind of add up, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:16

Um and that and that always happens. Like I just I mean, I put up a boulder in the Alpine in 2018, and like I thought it was really hard, and then something broke and it got a little easier, and I did it, and so I like went with a lower grade, and it only just started getting repeated this season, but like everyone's doing it a different way. Like, I just didn't have very good beta. And I literally just yesterday evening was like talking to a guy who did it this season and was like, like your beta was so fucked up. I was like, I you know, it yeah, it felt hard, it felt like really hard to me. But that was just that was just how I figured out how to do it. And now I'm really interested to like go back and try some of those moves with the new, seemingly correct beta and be like, well, now how hard does this thing feel? So like even just go back. Yeah, just because I'm fascinated by that shit. Like, like it's I'm fascinated by what makes climbing hard. And like, yeah, like I already did it. I'm probably not gonna like try to send it again. Um, or maybe I will, I don't know. Who knows what I'll be excited to do at that point. But it feels like a cool opportunity for me to go back and try it a different way. Um, and and see, because like I'll learn like why didn't I see that the first time, you know, if it's truly that much easier. What what about the way the holds were laid out or whatever? Like, why didn't that occur to me? Because like I would love for it to occur to me next time to do it the easier way. Uh but yeah, just just throwing that out there, because like that's the other variable here is like anytime something is it's a first ascent or like hasn't been done very often, the moonlight sonata thing. And Simone's the the foot upside down, like, yeah, Allison, you're like, yeah, I tried that, but like now you've seen it done, like that changes things. Like he he did it that way, he didn't think it was as hard as and so he downgraded it. Like, this is just it's just bouldering, and it like an especially earliest sense of hard climbs, bouldering or otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:30

Yeah, and this is why you started out by saying that Almondros suggested V17. It doesn't mean it's V17, it doesn't mean it's V18. Those are two people's opinions, and we'll see. Uh one thing that I thought was interesting is I think Alam said this uh on his post, or uh he's in good shape. He's strong as heck, and I feel bad now. I did my podcast with him earlier in the year. I feel like I almost was like acting like he was kind of getting old, kind of like, you know, not not at you know, because I I think he had a young kid and he's probably been not able to really uh put a bunch of time into a hard project. He's been probably, you know, having fun being a new dad. Uh, but he's only in his early 30s, and he seems to be in the best shape of his life. And uh Jakob Schubert, what is he 37 now? Um, I think he's 37, just did the second ascent of DNA, which is the first

Jakob Schubert Sends DNA 9c/5.15d

SPEAKER_02 1:15:32

repeat of uh 9C and the first person to do more than one 9C. And I thought it was interesting that both these guys are in like their mid-30s. And you know, what does that say about the future of climbing as well, where you see people who are in their early 20s doing, I don't know, pick your high number or hard climb. And I I think that there was a side of me that thought, like, oh, well, they're just young, freakishly strong. Uh, but you know, you could have said that about Jacob or Adam 10 years ago, and now look at them. And so, you know, it's just interesting that they're continuing to be at the top of the game even into their mid-30s. Um, good job to to both of them. Uh, did I do a good job introducing Jacob's story? Did you like that segue?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:19

I love that. And the I mean things change, but uh from what I have heard, and it seems to have been consistent over time, is that like they say for males, athletic performance is supposed to peak in the mid-30s. You know, and and and you look at, you know, pick a sport, you know, you always you have these young phenoms, you also have these these veterans. And I think where you see the really highest performance is when you have a physiology that is robust enough to participate at a high level in the activity over a long enough period of time to build up the experience, but not fall apart. Uh speaking from experience. Uh like it and then and to be able to arrive in what is like, you know, theoretically the biological prime and you know, not have a crazy injury history, have like a lot of high-level performance under your belt, and like get there kind of as the total package. And I think, you know, we're watching Andra and Yacka be that right now. Um, and yeah, there are these young kids who are freaking crushing. And and it will be interesting as it always is, like, who has the longevity? Because I think in uh high-level athletics, and I and I think climbing, you know, maybe more or less specifically, who knows? Like the experience is so important because there are so many ways to express climbing. And so, like, if you just don't have a lot of experience, you may be super talented in all these other ways, but like that experience still isn't there. So if you can uh if you can have longevity in this sport at that high level, which I will say, like there's a genetic component to that. You gotta be somebody like he's not here, a Carlo or a Daniel or uh, you know, a Jakob, like these people who, for whatever reason, are able to withstand the uh demand of the sport at that level over a long enough period of time that, like, yeah, we're seeing like peak climbing in Jakob and and Adam, and and I'm sure other people I'm not thinking of, but um yeah, it's it's sick. And DNA looks rad. Uh, and to like do it on the live stream with the like the pressure. I mean, he did it on BIG, which was also nuts. I'm glad he didn't break a hold this time. Uh but it's it's cool. I don't know, I just sort of feel like we are having a bit of a front seat to like a cool time in climbing, and I'm happy to be here for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:07

I thought it was so cool. I uh tried to like be on top of it this time because I think the last time he did something on live, like I didn't I didn't watch it. I I mean I know he did it on live, but I I like I wasn't there, so to speak. Um so I watched like uh I think a handful at least of the other tries. Like I think it was the ninth one that he streamed, um or something similar that he sent. So I watched uh I watched uh like a handful of the first few. Um and it was so sick when he did it, watching him stick the move like on live. Like it really, it like genuinely felt like a like like a Hollywood movie moment, because you like don't like you actually don't know what's gonna happen. Like he's you know, he's fallen pretty much in the same spot for eight live stream tries, and then he like sticks it and does it. And it's like I feel like so much of climbing media, like what happens is obvious because the boulder's been done or the route's been done already. And so it's like here's the footage of this route that somebody already sent, and clearly because I'm posting it, I already did it. Like at nobody's like, nobody like I mean, maybe somebody should actually. That'd be a good content idea of like start posting things or you actually don't know if it's a send or not. But um, but I think that was what was really cool about it, is like you don't you just don't get that feeling from watching any other climbing media of being like, I actually don't know if he's gonna do it right now or not. Like he's stuck this move. Is he gonna be able to keep it together and like take it to the chains? I've watched him fall on this move on live eight times already. Um it was cool, it was like a really interesting watching experience and like a different emotional connection to it than I think you get when you watch footage after the fact. Um, and yeah, I mean there's so much pressure there, and I I definitely I feel like I couldn't do it, but I did love being a spectator for it, I will say.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:06

I wonder if he felt the pressure or if he was just so confident that it would go at some point, or that he like knew that it was gonna happen at some point, that it just wasn't a big deal to live stream because I personally would feel a ton of pressure knowing that I haven't looked at those view counts, but I don't know, thousands, tens of thousands of people are like signing in to watch you. Like, I wouldn't want to you know randomly like just choose a climb to be like, I'm gonna live stream this, but who knows what's gonna happen. Like, I would want some confidence there.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:40

Yeah, totally. I mean, I feel like contrary to what I mean, I wasn't on the podcast yet when Carlos says the things about not talking about boulders you haven't done. Um, and it's easier to say after the fact than it is when you're in it, but at the same time, it's like, what if he never did it? Like, who cares? Like he's still streaming the attempts and like showing the process, and people are liking watching it. And I mean, if he live streamed it for years and never did it, like that's also part of a story, and people like watching it, and like that doesn't take anything away from Jakob or who he is as an athlete or a person, but he's like trying to put content out there that like embodies the experience and really takes people along with him, which is not easy. Um, and so it's cool. So I also wonder if yeah, if he has that perspective, is he's just like doing his job as a professional climber and like putting content out there that people want to see. And like, I mean, at the end of the day, obviously it's way sicker that he sent, but like nothing's gonna happen if he doesn't send. Also, like it's not like a do-or-de- moment in the grand scheme of his resume and his career, even.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:44

Jakob, could you come on and do a podcast and we'll do it live? We'll live stream the podcast. Uh, I I want to steal man Carlo real quick since he's not here. And I I don't think Carlo would have an issue with any of that stuff. I think he wants people to make sure you don't want to see an athlete somehow attach themselves to some number or unearned glory and further their career by in like like if I went out and I started live streaming my attempts on DNA, and I'm like, yeah, like I'm really close. Uh, and then somehow, you know, I'm trying to show that I'm that level of climber, even though I'm not by you know attaching myself to a name and number that I don't have any business doing. I think that may be an issue, but maybe he's just an old man uh yawning cloud nowadays.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:32

Um, I mean, I honestly though, like I my rebuttal to that would be like that's on whatever the climbing industry and like people watching take from it. Like, I I mean I think anybody has the right to go try anything and live stream it and put it on YouTube if they want, as long as it's not like disrupting, you know, the other people that are at the craig or at the whatever climbing. But like if I went and to go try like Exodia, which is obviously way too hard for me and I should not be, I mean, I don't know. I guess maybe I should go try it. But I don't know. If somebody, if somebody goes to try Exodia and starts live streaming it and is nowhere close to doing it and not doing any of the moves and people choose to watch, like that's not that's not like on me to not be doing it because I'm not doing any of the moves. That's like on the climbing media to not be like, Alice Invest super close to sending Exodia V18 when I'm like not doing any of the moves. Like that's not my that's not my fault necessarily. Like, as long as I'm doing a good job of like being honest about what I'm doing, then it's not like my fault if that gets blown out of proportion.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:34

Yeah, I think that's kind of the thing is like it's it's you're not responsible for who does or doesn't tune in necessarily. And like you said, if it's if it's entertaining enough that people want to watch, regardless of the progress that is or isn't being made, so be it. Like as long as you're not lying. Uh and I think that's what you know, partly what's so cool about the live stream thing is it's just transparent. Like if he was looking sh like sh dog shit on the route, like well, then people just aren't gonna tune in. But he was getting close and it was exciting and it was sick, and so people tuned in, and then it was a thing. You know, I'm sympathetic to uh, you know, what we're talking about regarding Carlo. Like that's a commonly held thing. Like I still have I've got sick photos that I just think are rad, but like they're on boulders that I haven't done yet, and so like no one will ever see those. And that's just like, and maybe even in a modern context, like this is less of a big deal, and people don't take things that way. But at least like when I was coming up, you know, things like Instagram were new and putting videos on Vimeo, like all that stuff was new, and it was kind of the early days of sort of the climbers themselves sort of taking over what was or wasn't out there. There was an opportunity for a lot of like what I think we would consider kind of a stolen valor thing where you could kind of present an image of yourself that wasn't really true to reality and was like technically not lying, but like was sort of skirting that edge. And I in a lot of ways, it's almost harder to do that now because there is so much scrutiny, and then like certainly in a the context of live streaming. So I wonder if like that idea is something that is relevant to a past context that is potentially less relevant today. I don't know. I'm gonna have to think more about that because I that's an interesting idea, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:31

I I think that is almost certainly correct. Like I sort of remember that. Like I feel like I was right in between when that mentality was sort of leaving. Um, and I mean I still have some of that for my own reasons. Like I don't really want to talk about or like post about my projects until I've done them. Um, but I think at this point that also feels like a personal decision rather than something that like I care if anybody has an opinion about. Like I think there are a lot of people that are doing a really good job of posting about their process on their project as they're trying it in a way that like isn't misleading at all. Um, and because it's like so easy to post, like here's this uncut video of like my high point. So it's like obvious that they're not just trying a boulder that's completely out of the realm of possibility. Um like I think that Czech girl, since we're talking about Czech athletes, Jana Spekova is trying Terranova.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:29

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:30

She's been trying it for years. And I mean, has also done other hard boulders that would like indicate that her resume speaks to her position in like trying a boulder that hard. But she also does like a really good job of like she posts her high points. She like posts the links she does, and she like talks about it in the caption and will say, like, this link was really cool for me for these reasons. And like that's why I'm one step closer to being able to do it. So even though it was like a project that when she first started posting about it, was maybe really far off. Like now she's way closer than she used to be. And so I think as a viewer and as somebody who's like scrolling on Instagram, it's cool to be able to follow along with that process. Um but I do think it's just because of the way that media has changed. And so it's just easier to do that in a way that's like honest. Whereas before I think it was it's like hard it was like harder to to be sharing that in a way that felt like real and transparent rather than just being like sort of inflating your ego by saying you're like trying things that you sh quote unquote shouldn't be trying or that people think you shouldn't be trying or whatever the narrative is like I think it's it's a lot harder to do that now because there are so many eyes on you at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:48

And we're used to consuming media of that type like outside of climbing to also which like you know 10, 15, 20, 25 years ago was less and less true.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:00

Yeah, no I totally agree. I mean it is it's like that in every like in any genre of any content anywhere on the internet is like that. Like come along with me while I cook my like lasagna in the kitchen. And then like that is like the type of content that you're consuming. You're not just like looking at a photo of the finished lasagna. Like it it is like that in every genre of media. And so I think it also just makes sense that people are starting to do it more in climbing too.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:28

I do think that the media landscape now has just completely changed what it means to be a climber. And I I like the idea of just those emotions you felt and and I felt them too of watching Jakob actually try it and you didn't know it was going to happen. That's fun. I mean it's why competitions are fun too like live events like unscripted really authentic is great. And then the other end of the spectrum amazing stories long drawn out stories like Jana's I mean like you said years like that's cool. Like that's cool. Like that's you don't tune in thinking she's gonna do it that day. You're just like following her life almost like you know and so I think that's really cool. I also just wanted to shout out the commentary by Giovanni Placci I don't know if you saw that attempt where he was being the commentator I did a podcast with that guy. I think he's incredibly awesome he puts out great YouTube content and I liked hearing commentary on a live stream of Jacob trying it. Like I thought that was fascinating. Also it helped that he's an extremely high level climber and the breakdown was useful and helped me be aware of what was causing Jakob to fall where he was what was a what a good attempt or a good move looked like when he was trying the red point whether he kept his foot or not what new things he was trying. I thought all that was super fun. And uh also uh he told me that no Seb One 9B or up had ever been repeated. So this was the first repeat not just of any 9C um but of a Seb climb that was 9B or harder which I thought was really interesting because Seb's prolific too there's a lot of nine I I I shouldn't say that I I look at the numbers but from from my memory Seb's FA'd a lot of hard climbs and it's kind of cool that you know this one was the one.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:22

Yeah and I mean I I think the other thing that I'll add to that too is like as someone who's like I I mean I mentioned mantra at the start of this video and I have I mean currently I'm trying to edit parts of like the iPhone footage that I have I don't know exactly where it's gonna go or like what I'm gonna do with it uh because I haven't posted it anywhere yet but I I mean I have two hours straight of just tries of just back to back attempts like I stopped counting at like 350 pull-ons that I have on film. And like obviously I'm not gonna post two and a half hours straight of me trying the same boulder. But like once you are already done climbing the boulder I think it's something like spending that much time on one project is something that's really hard to articulate in a way that like people can relate to or like understand the amount of time that you've spent under a particular boulder. Whereas like if you do what Yana or like Will Bosey does it too and you post it as it goes like I think it allows people to really understand the amount of work that these athletes are like putting into a boulder like even for Elias and Exodia like him saying 200 and whatever sessions obviously you're like wow that's crazy but it's like almost so crazy that you can't really even like understand what he's saying. Whereas if he had posted like I mean you know once a month this for the past four or five years as he's been going to this boulder when he finally did it you'd be like holy shit he's been trying that for so like I've been following him for six years and he's been trying that all the time and like I totally have like a grasp on like how long this has taken. And so I think that is something that as like we go forward could be really cool in climbing media is having people it's hard. Like I mean like I said I don't really have any interest in doing it. I find it adds pressure in a way that I don't like but for the people who do like it I think it is a really cool way of showing an audience the experience that we were talking about at the start of this podcast of like banging your head against the wall and learning and the the things that go into the like minutia of beta and detail as you figure out sequences on difficult projects. Like it is something that's just so hard to communicate once it's done. Like you just say the amount of days it took and you're like wow that was a lot of days and then that's sort of it. But if you can take whoever is like your audience along with you I think it is a good it's a good way to do that because it's sort of the only way that is relatable for people watching.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:50

Okay as we wrap I'm gonna throw Carlo under the bus. Carlo made some statement about how you have to be careful when you propose a a new grade on something that you you know pro athletes only get maybe one or two chances and it's you know you're going out on a limb there. But uh I talked to Adam about this brief like my site talked to him a few text messages about how Elias like from talking to him he doesn't care what anyone else thinks. He gave his grade other people give his grade he had his experience and he loved it and he'll be back to do that again on the next project and that we both agreed that this was good for his career. This helped him become a professional climber not be stuck uh just you know route setting and have more time to climb. And so I thought it was interesting that this actually I think uh was a really positive whole experience for him. And again who knows maybe it will be the world's first V18 we won't know for another 10 20 years uh but I just was happy to see Adam go enjoy it and you know kind of make sure that that boulder didn't kind of fall into like obscurity either sometimes like like I remember when like what was it like Chelam Balam got proposed as like a 9B and like people just like didn't even try it. And there was like some questions around if it had actually been done by the person but you know you don't want things to get buried like now this looks like a beautiful boulder looks like a beautiful place you have you know one of if not the best climb in the world saying like this is a cool climb here's my opinion I think that's going to bring it even more into limelight and I think it all really reflected well on Elias and you know and what he he was maybe one off sue the guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:44

Like are you kidding me? Like it's not like it's not like Exodia's V14 or or Christian would have done it. You know like it so yeah I think it's the argumentative side of it I think obviously got like kind of blown out of proportion. Even I think people felt like we had like opinions that I would say that I probably actually didn't have based on how we were talking about it. Okay but yeah really cool to see how it kind of all played out and great for uh Elias and but it and for Adam and like just the whole like the whole deal like it's honestly best case scenario for everybody involved everything sick like rad. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:23

Onto the next for yeah um we should wrap one thing I just wanted to share that I kind of heard through the pipeline

How Does New Technology Affect The Grades Of Old Climbs?

SPEAKER_02 1:36:33

I thought was kind of interesting is that there's these new knee pads called uh black pads uh B-L-A-K. And I I think I just kind of heard I didn't even know who the company was and I looked it up and they are supposed to be next level sticky and well fitting and good. I it sounds like Jakob Schubert is someone who uses that pad. Almondra you know maybe I heard may a comment that those pads are so sticky that or maybe not sticky that they're so good that perhaps climbs such as silence or other climbs are super important could be significantly easier. And it's just fascinating how it's just it's never going to stop. You know there's new technology and then was that do a grades and it's just such a you know a whirlwind. But the truth is um I would get better gear and then it would hopefully unlock new abilities to climb other things and whether that changes the grade or not I don't know but it's just a a a funny nother wrench to throw into all these things where new gear will change things you know and I I love that you said that Rustam did it in just flat anasazis. I think that's amazing uh but you know what happens in 20 years when I don't know shoes will be better shoes will not be worse um things will get better chalk will become better I don't know how but everything will continue to progress and then it's gonna be weird when people go back and they will repeat these things what will they say how will they all hold up I don't know but um it's super weird to really make things difficult.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:11

I have a knee bar project I'm gonna order one.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:13

Hell yeah I mean honestly me too I just science I just looked it up I was like well I guess I'm getting a new knee pad there you go Me too I'm already on at the website yeah but like the the classic the classic argument is like you know who's better LeBron or or uh Michael Jordan and I'm not gonna go too deep in this metaphor because I don't know enough about this shit to really know but like one of the things like that comes up is this yeah baseball one of the things that comes up is like this this idea of like taking accomplishments out of their time and trying to like compare them to something else. And what's interesting about climbing that's different than basketball is like you can't make a time machine I mean maybe you can we haven't made a time machine to to send LeBron back to like play on the Bulls or against the bulls with Michael Jordan. But like I can go climb a boulder problem that Fred Nicole did in Anasazi slip-ons in 1995 uh which is like a weird and crazy thing. It's like almost the equivalent of that. And so I think our version of like not trying to like take these accomplishments out of their time is to understand the context in which those accomplishments happen and not conflate what we're doing with what they did then because it is abso freaking different like we're wearing different shoes we've got different paths we've got different chalk like there's maybe there's different beta we've been training in different ways our boards are better. Our boards are better our access to certain styles of climbing is more developed like it's a really interesting scenario with with climbing where you do in some ways have these accomplishments that are these little time capsules that you can still go back and interact with in the modern day and just understanding that by nature of when you are having that experience it's a different experience and like that's okay like acknowledged and yeah when you freaking knee bar diabolique in Waco it's not a B anymore it just isn't like how hard it is I don't know but like try it without the knee bar pad and then tell me it's the same boulder problem. It's not and you know there's countless examples of that and like you said Josh the tech is going to keep getting better uh and that's gonna continue to change so which is not a big deal just don't pretend like it's not happening. Okay I'm gonna go click buy too and I love we're all getting knee pads.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:46

Yeah not not sponsored wish it was because they're really expensive. They have left ones and right ones they're anatomically like set up and four sizes.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:56

Ooh ooh that's important you gotta have them fit I'm making I'm currently in the process of sewing also for my project uh knee bar pants that have like a drop square off the top so you can put them on your skin but still have the pants yes because I still maintain if your knee bar pad isn't touching your skin you're not knee barring.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:21

Nope it's definitely I'm always like that I do that all the time yeah yeah I know I know you those so it's not asless chaps it's styless chaps is what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:35

Yeah is that what it is quadless quadless chaps do you like unzip it when I did yeah when I did uh eclipse in little I cut a hole in my pants like I cut a square in my pants to do the boulder um oh that's so cool and so that's where like the inspo came from but yeah no you like unzip the two pieces of it and then it has like a missing section that goes behind your leg. Uh and so then the knee pad will go on top. It's been hot so it hasn't been product tested yet but it's coming.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:07

I have like my knee bar pants which are pants that I can pull high enough onto my thigh to also put a knee bar pad on. And so like depending on where I'm going for the day I'm like shit are my knee are my knee bar pants dirty? Because like I need those but I have cool little thing to try. This was like a total I don't know why I tried this I just it was just I had it on me it was cold and I didn't have my knee bar pants on. So what actually it's still not as good as skin but if you take Coban that like stretchy bandage material that only sticks to itself you wrap that around your skin pants go back over then you put the knee bar pad on it's like way better. It's way better uh again still not skin but it's way better.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:59

You can actually like knee bar a little bit where normally I'm like there's no way only on the Tespi I love this you guys I I just can't wait till I see like runway models uh you know with just walking down the runway without knee bar pads with without like uh not with knee bar pads but just like a square like open on their quads oh yeah Alison because you are kind of a fashion icon now I gotta say I got that's why I was getting you're I like I am I mean this with 100% genuine like what you're doing is very very cool and something that like I kind of feel like climbing needs and you're enriching the sport and I have nothing I also feel like climbing needs it.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:41

Yeah well that's very nice but I also yeah I I also feel like it's missing so I'm that was the hope. So yeah thank you that's very nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:49

And I was joking about the runway miles but I do not wear shorts. I don't like wearing shorts I don't like wearing shorts when I climb especially I could use like an opening in my quads so that when I do need to wear knee pads that I could still wear pants. But yeah something to like zip up or something because it'd be really weird walking the grocery store after climbing and just having like nothing on my legs but being covered everywhere else.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:16

So the current issue which is fine because usually when I like am going outside and it's cold I'm like wearing like spandeck shorts and then I have pants on over top so I can do a quick change. But currently the design of these pants you have to take them all the way off to expose the because then you put your leg like in front of the flap so the flap's like your leg. So they do have to come all the way off to reset for the knee bar situation. So that is the main current main flaw but still.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:46

Wait one more question on these pro tips is if I if I have hairy legs I'm not saying I do but maybe I do and I were to have to do a knee bar and like duct tape, it's not fun. That's one of the reasons why I don't do the skin to to pad thing is like if I'm going for it with that spray and everything it just sucks to take it off. But what I'm wondering is could you wrap that shave it uh there well I could shave it I could yeah could you thank you Allison yes that is possible um could I wrap that coat band all around my leg and that would kind of still give me that same connection without the painful after you should try it or just shave like there's no dude I sh I've shaved my legs for knee bar and I have it's not the you're not getting limited enough Josh come on don't you want to send I want to send but you guys this is one of my complaints about technology and like nude knee pads and bind lace stuff and like of course I want to send I just want to go climb because I just want to go pull on some grab some grips with my friends try real hard uh and laugh about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:56

And sometimes like when I find myself Yeah but why couldn't you do that with shaved legs?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:00

That's what I'm wondering.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:02

I'd have to shave my legs literally every time before I went because but then if as long as you're going back enough you're you're basically waxing your legs too oh good point.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:12

If you just do it enough all right all right that's a good note to end it on um let's leave it at that waxing my legs okay team uh we've got a couple of quick bonus questions if you want to hear that QA and other extra behind the scenes content from this episode and others head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad-free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow, please share this episode with someone who would love it. Okay, see you next week