#198 Austin Hoyt — Maintaining Progression At Your Limit, The Northeast’s V18, and What Separates The Younger Generation Of Climbers

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Adam, last time he was on the pod, he was like, Oh yeah. That thing on the big bad wolf roof.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

V eighteen Unironically, we both do mean it. Like it is the hardest thing either of us have tried slash seen. That's clearly possible because every single move in sequence has been done by me or Adam. You can basically think of this as like creature style, but crimps, like small crimps in the roof. I honestly don't think that's this year's goal because it's just way too hard. I I genuinely believe it's the hardest thing in the world, so but uh everything is working towards putting serious effort into it. It's pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Welcome to the Test Peace Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Austin Hoy. That's just you and me, bud.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

How's it going? Great. I'm glad to be here. I'm I'm honored to be on the pod. For real, for real.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Dude, you were on the pod for real, for real before good temps even existed. That's how you're on good temps. This is just back to normal, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

True. True. This is day one.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Gotta say, I was looking at our good temps episode count, and next time I think is good tempts number 18. And uh just you know, do a little quick math at one a month. That's a year and a half, dude. A year and a half we've been doing those.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Damn. That's feels way longer than I remember it. You know what I mean? Like I feel like we have not been doing it that long. That's kind of sick.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Well, you know, we just kind of show up and you know have like a moment together all on the crew, and then a month goes by. And it in some ways it feels like a big stretch between them, but in some ways it just feels uh like really normal each time. Just like, oh, we're back together again, you guys. Like, what happened this one? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

No, it does. It kind of feels it does feel like a like a group hangout kind of. It's nice. I feel like sometimes the stretches feel like super long, and sometimes the stretches feel like a week.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Well, what's weird is that you know we have this group chat, and sometimes we'll record and then like crazy news comes out, and you're just like texting about it, and you're super psyched, and then it like you don't get to record for like three weeks, and you're like, oh, I forgot that happened during this cycle. And I I will say that the summer less things happen, and I'm grateful for the good temps of where there's good temps and good sending happens because you know, like I like when some big news happens. Although I don't know what you think, but I think climbing has just been absolutely wild for the past year and a half that we've been doing good temps. Like a lot of stuff is happening. It feels like climbing is is booming. In well, I don't know economically, I don't know about that part, but the actual sending feels like things are happening.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yeah, cult culturally, climbing is booming. No, I I I agree. I mean, I feel like ever since, let's see, I feel like to me it kind of feels like when we started good temps, climbing's been on an upward trajectory since. But no, it has been feeling extremely, extremely busy. I feel like people are just stronger than ever and capable of doing things that were like deemed super hard. Now it's kind of just like I can maybe do in a week.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Yeah, it's uh I mean it makes for good news, and there's always this debate about like are people stronger, or are they just standing on the shoulders of the people that came before them? And I have a big shift somewhere in the middle of good temps, or maybe I was talking, I don't know. I just remember clearly talking to Carlo. I think it was when I saw you maybe do Luc Dreaming in Bishop. It might have been that season. And I just remember seeing all you, your whole Northeast crew, the Salt Lake crew too, and just thinking to myself, like, this is different. Like, yes, you know, every generation builds on the sending before, and they get to, you know, it's like we've talked about, it's much easier to flash something that's been done before than do an FA. But when that season happened, it just seemed like tons of V14, like in a few goes, tons of V15s, tons of V16s, like the tickless, and then tons of V17s were were happening all around the world. I just remember talking to Carlo and just shaking my head, just thinking, no, things are different. People are better, stronger, and climbing has changed. And it was the first time where I felt many notches away from the top end uh or before. I I mean, I'm not near the top end, but when you climb around people who are really good, you like understand it. You're like, oh, okay, like I see how they do that move. Like I can't do it, or I can't do it that quick, or I can't string them together, but it's not magic. And I just remember watching you guys and just thinking, oh shit, that's magic again to me.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

No, I I first of all, I appreciate it. Thank you. I'm I'm honored to be mentioned in that, you know, because I feel like even for me, like I don't know, I had this thing, like I was climbing with Taylor a lot recently, and I kept being like, damn, like Noah and Adam, oh my god, they're they're like crazy. There's I put them on like this crazy high pedestal and I I I know they're the best and everything, and and I consider myself not good at board climbing or anything, which I think board climbing is like the reason everyone is on that upward trajectory. But Tay was just like, dude, you grew up with Noah and Adam. Of course you consider yourself not good at board climbing. So I like I stepped back from it and I looked at it from like a different perspective and I was like, oh yeah, I did grow up with like the two best in the world. I'm actually not that bad, I guess, considered. And I don't know, it's like weird growing up with uh with them two specifically because uh to me, I kind of w I've just like known, you know what I mean? Like I mean I knew that level from a young age because I've uh watched them do crazy shit. So when I see them do crazy shit now, I'm not like I'm not surprised, but I'm impressed, obviously. And just like to be a part of it is is awesome. That's as much as I can be at least.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Do you think that had you not grown up around that crew that you would be, you know, a notch weaker?

SPEAKER_01 6:40

I think for me specifically, I don't know different for everyone, but for me specifically, I think so because like I don't know, I don't have like the natural strength that like Adam or Noah has. Not that they don't work hard either, but like they're like naturally super strong. I think mine more came from like chasing them on the boards and just never like never being as good as I I climbed with Adam mostly, so never being able to do Adam's quote unquote V10s on the spray wall took me like four sessions. He'd do them in like two goes, you know. And I luckily he pushed me in a way that I couldn't be pushed in the gym by anyone else. And I mean I and I'll I'll I'll flip it even, and I think that like bringing Adam outside, you know, and helping him with like beta and stuff. I I used to help him a lot more than I do now with beta, and in my opinion. I feel like I used to be the guy that figures out the beta, and Adam was the guy that can do the beta. Now it's not now it's not like that anymore. Uh but back in the day I feel like it was kind of like that. But anyways, to answer your question, yeah, I would be weaker.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

I'm sure everyone knows already this is Adam Shahar and Noah Wheeler, and you know, you guys all came from the Northeast and now dominate everything. Uh and yeah, I I think that it's interesting when you grow up around someone who is just genetically predisposed to a certain type, too, like that whole board climbing style. You will see people who are great climbers at everything and then not great at board climbing, and it kind of goes the other way sometimes too. So it's not always fair to look at like this microcosm of board climbing. Although we could talk about how it transfers into real rock and it does pretty well. It's not everything. And it made me think of how what I saw in Noah and Adam to a lesser degree, but was paying attention to Noah more, is that Noah is really strong on boards, and it's not that he's like terrible outdoors, but he has such a high ceiling of strength, I don't feel like his technique matched it. But Noah is dedicated and smart and showing up. And, you know, then I want to flip that on you too, where it's like strength sometimes takes a long time to build. And like, you know, just because you come at something from these different angles, like it's not clear. Like, if you look at like Adam Andra, Carlo made fun of me when I said he was like quote unquote weak. He's like, How dare you even say it? He's not because he's not. Like, but yeah, I wouldn't say that if you looked at like 12-year-old Adam Andra, you'd be like, wow, this guy is unbelievably strong. It'll be interesting to see what he does. I'd say he came at more from a mastery of climbing, and then he's built to be an incredible uh physical specimen, also. And it's like not clear like which end of the spectrum you live on, as long as you understand what it takes to get better, you know, what where your weaknesses lie.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

No, that's for sure. I feel like for a long time I was a firm believer that like being technical first and then gaining strength was like the path to go because I think that was the path I was going, and I was like, oh, it has to be right, that's what I'm doing. But the the older and like better, I guess I get, I think I realized that there's no, like you just said, there's no right path as long as you you like know where you want to be, you know the steps to get there. You're you know, you you follow the steps, you don't try to rush it, you just take your time and there's no answers. That's one thing. Like, like I did some clinics recently, and that's like the one thing I was telling everyone. I was like, sure, I'm coaching you and I'm telling you what worked for me, but just because it worked for me doesn't mean it's gonna work for you. Like, you should take what I say, you can try it, but if it doesn't work, just throw it out and figure out something that works for you, you know.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

This podcast started with me doing a lot of episodes with Tim Kang. Do you know Tim? You ever met Tim? Yeah, yeah. I know Tim.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yeah. And you know, Tim was a coach. I he may still do some coaching, but just really giving that behind the scenes of what getting better is actually like and how non-linear it is, and how you basically have to just commit to like searching. You're like, I'm going to get better. And sometimes it's in a place you didn't expect, sometimes it's really obvious, or sometimes you can have a coach come along and just be like, hey, look, like, do you see this glaring hole, which you may not see? Uh, but the idea that it's super simple and you just show up and get better uh is not the truth. And then I would guess,

Progressing When You're Close To Your Limit

SPEAKER_00 11:06

uh, I mean, this is one of the questions I wanted to talk to you about is how that changes as you get even higher and higher in your ability and grades. Because I think when we did our first podcast, you had done lucid dreaming and it was a big deal for you, and you were psyched. And lucid dreaming, very hard boulder, and for a lot of people, that could be a lifetime achievement, a lifetime goal. And I mean, I don't want to say that the other boulders you've done, you've you've done multiple V16s now. I want to hear it from you where you think lucid dreaming uh lies on that spectrum. But my point is that you continue to show up and get better. And I'm kind of curious about that journey of how to get better when you're at that going from V15 to V16 versus you know, V4 to V5. There's probably a million ways to get better, and they probably all do work, but as you reach your kind of potential, I would assume it narrows, but maybe I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

No, that's super interesting. And I've never really thought about it from that perspective before, I feel like like the narrowing and like v4 to five, there's a lot of ways to get there and less as you get better, but you're not I don't think you're wrong at all. Like for me, I think the biggest thing I'm focusing on right now, at least, and and there's like I go through eras of my climbing, I feel like. Like and the era I'm in right now is like I like like okay, so I went to Colorado this last summer, and I at the beginning of the summer, I was like, I'm gonna go do Creature of the Black Lagoon because it reminds me of these two projects in the Northeast I want to do. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna get better at this style I'm not great at, so I can work towards these two projects that I think are harder or just as hard at least. So I went, projected it, and like did it, walked away stronger at this roof burly style, right? So I guess my philosophy now in like trying to bridge the gap is just you don't have to be good at everything. You know, there's there's climbers that uh are hyper specific on one thing, but to me I think the way I'd find like the most joy and progression is picking a super style, like diving into it. Like I did Lucid, did the process, right? And I was like, okay, let's take a little break from this. I don't want to like burn out on this like hyper crimping style. Let's go focus on this almost complete opposite roof burly style. And then I'm on two sides of the spectrum and I can like kind of bridge them closer and closer together over time. And that doesn't really answer the question, I guess, but I think just trying different shit. That's always been my philosophy. If you go back to the first podcast, it's always been try the tross, try the good ones, try everything, climb it all, you know. Climb it all.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Well, something that you said there that I found kind of interesting was I didn't realize that when you set out to do creature uh, you know, uh iconic uh V16 right next to Jade, it's definitely like a cool climb. I didn't realize that you were thinking about in terms of your projects back home, which is just amazing uh for a bunch of reasons. I thought that you, I don't know. Yeah, I was actually kind of curious why you're attracted to it. But what that tells me about getting better is it's this idea of rather than just saying, oh, I want to be better at crimping or whatever the case may be, you're like, I want to do this project, which could be an established line too. You know, it could be like it doesn't have to be an FA. And you're just like, what do I need to do to get there? And I think that's always like a an interesting way to think about climbing, where then you're like drawn to what's required. You're going to morph your body to whatever the requirements that specific climb has, versus like, I want to get better at crimping. It's like, well, what does that mean? Does that mean you can hang more weight on the hangboard? Like, because there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, who doesn't want to hang more weight? But climbing is still about like putting it into action. It's about getting tops, not zones. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Yeah, tops. And sorry to wait, sorry to interject, but I was gonna say, like, I think that was my that was my problem or confusion with like conventional training is like, what was it like you just said, what was I trained? I was training for climbing, which is like not specific enough for me. One thing I was I tell a lot of people that like ask for advice or like and yeah, anyone, I was just like, for me, the best way to do it is like have an overarching goal. Like, I was like, oh, I want to do the process. So my entire year leading up to it was like little things and little ways to get to that end goal, and it like gave me a reason to go and train. And a day I didn't want to train, even at least I had like an end goal. It's not like oh, I'm just indefinitely want to get better at crimping, because I feel like when you try to do too much, you end up doing nothing, and it's kind of like a trap.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

It's also like each climb is so freaking specific. So different. I I have had times where I was just I I don't know, uh this is everyone's had this experience and I haven't had it in a long time. But you know, when you just show up to a problem you've been on like a season before, and then you just absolutely house it, you're just like, Oh, oh, this crimp, I can like one arm this who cares? Like, I can't believe I had trouble with this before. But for me now, like uh when I'm trying harder stuff, it's like I will just get shut down and then one day conditions will be better, I'll find a different body position, and I will do that move easily. I'm just like, if I was 50% stronger, I don't know if it would have changed that part of the climb for me. Like, it wasn't about that. It was conditions where I grab the hold and body position. And you know, it's like you gotta show up and try the climb, or you know, just understand that context is everything. You can't just train your way into walking up to V16 and crushing it. I mean, maybe some people can. I don't know. I shouldn't make that blank estimate.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

I was gonna say, maybe you can because I feel like Noah totally does. He's just like so strong it doesn't even like whatever, right? Because we talk a lot. The difference between me and Noah is like, and I'll I'll I don't think this is throwing Noah under the bus at all. I don't think he would care. But he's like, oh, it's crazy to me that you can try a boulder and not do the moves on it. Like you can like not do a move for two sessions and still go back and do it because Noah's so strong, I don't think he's ever necessarily encountered a move he hasn't done in two sessions. So when he d does that, he's like, oh well, this is way too hard. And honestly, because he hasn't done it, maybe it is. But like to me, and I get this from like the people I climb with, like Bryce, like you said, it's not a hard move, it's just like, oh, this is this is gonna be a trick, is what we always say. And I don't know, sometimes there isn't, but usually there is.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

I've kind of changed my style on this where I I used to live in San Francisco and all the boulders were pretty far away that I wanted to do. Like Bishop is like five, seven hours, which is really hard to make happen in a weekend. You like leave work on Friday, you're stuck in traffic. It was not conducive to projecting for me, you know, because who knews if I'd even go the next weekend because it might have snowed and I couldn't get over the pass. And on top of that, I was with a crew that in general was typically either they had done the boulder or they were going to do that boulder. And so I was like, I better do it right now because who knows if I'll come back. And as a result, I kind of had that same thing where if I could do the moves, I would just do it. Like I remember a trip to Waco where it just felt like it was so black and white. Either I would do the climb or I wouldn't do the climb. I could tell within five minutes and I would just execute. But I think that led me to overemphasize strength and under-emphasize technique, conditions, and body positions because it made climbing seem black and white. Where now I will go through these processes of like, I can't do this move. Oh, wait, I can do this move, and maybe it's not even like that hard. And I just my buddy was argued with me that because I don't project that I'm missing that understanding of unlocking really difficult movement because I'm not paying attention to all the subtleties. And and over the past couple of years I've I've embraced that.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Yeah, no, I I think I think your buddy's right. And I don't know, the subtleties of movement is what makes climbing like to me so amazing. Just all the micro betas and like figuring everything out. It's such a fun game, but sometimes I get trapped in the cycle of, oh, there's a trick, or oh, there's an easier way, and there just isn't. And Noah helped me a lot with this in Colorado. I was trying to find different beta for creature through the middle, like through the crux. And the whole time I'm there, Noah's like, dude, you do not try from the start enough. So I was like, I'll take that to heart and like focus on that. And I mean, I sent the boulder, and you know, I with his philosophy. So it just all comes back to there's no right way. There's I would say there's there's probably wrong ways, if I had to guess, but there's no right way.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

You know, many different countries, and he said it felt like it gave him license to just try a bunch of different things because he said something along those lines. He's like, there's probably like what do you say? There's there's no all right, I'm I can't remember. Basically, just there was no wrong way, but there's many right ways. Yeah. Yeah, please help me there, Sean. Yeah, but just that we don't, it's not like exact science. Uh this is something that's crazy. I I I've talked to a bunch of other parents who now have kids in gymnastics, and and I came out of gymnastics and went into climbing. Is in gymnastics, there is a right way. There's no question about how to progress from you know, like a forward roll to like a front flip. And it's so fascinating to me. I watch my kids get coached by by a coach, and I'm like, oh, I remember that trail. Like I and then you see them and they're so terrible, and then they master that movement, and then they go into the next move, and you see it build, and you're like, oh, and that's how you do a triple front. Like it's very one step at a time. And perhaps at the top end of gymnastics, because I I'm not familiar enough with it, like maybe there is this kind of gray area, and how do you really progress? But technique is figured out in a way, and climbing is just not like that. Like, and everybody is different when they come up to do the same climb. I just find that it's why I think climbing will be forever fascinating and technique also, because it's just not straightforward. There's just there's no right way.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

No, I agree. And it's also why I think climbing can always get harder too. Like, there's gonna be new ideas, and like I don't think we're tapped out of like beta idea. I mean, I see Bryce do things I've never even thought of, you know. So I feel like there's some like unique uh things left to do that could unlock some like formerly impossible projects or something.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Yeah, Bryce Viola. I don't understand uh how he views climbing so differently than everyone else, even on established problems. I uh was I climbing with who was I climbing with on uh like the twin. Cracks it or scanner darkly. It's that like V12 low start.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Classic.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

I can't remember who I was climbing with. Um, but then Bryce rolled up and he's like, Oh, did you try this like toe hook over on this thing? It was just like, dude, this climb is like so established. Like everyone knows how to do it. Like it's you have like a hard foot swap. He's like, What if you took didn't really work for me? I think he did the move like that, or he had, you know, maybe not the best bit, but just the fact that like it worked like that. It wasn't wrong. You could imagine a different scenario where that's how the first ascensionist had done it, and then yeah, the other beta was later discovered. And you know, here's a climb that's been kind of classic for like 15 years. Bryce comes along and has like a different we call this a northeast vision, dude. I gotta give you a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Northeast vision before we leave the topic. His his best northeast vision, in my opinion, was down climbing buttermilker. He got pretty close. It was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

What about that new thing he did on Karma, like bizarre karma? Oh, yeah. I was out there in font with him, and dude.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

That was sick, Loki. That was kind of sick.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Yeah. Um, underrated.

Austin's V18 Project

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Uh okay. Uh I'm trying to think of where we should go. Do we want to go all the way to the northeast and and hear about the now dubbed V18 project by Adam Shahar? He he dug he didn't do the climb, he dubbed it that. And yeah, I can't remember if this was when we did our first pod or I you uh established the Northeast first V15, Big Bad Wolf, which got a lot of views on YouTube, but then you showed another project that kind of started in the same spot and went to the left. I think you said V17 or was it V18? I think V17.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

I said V17 at first, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

And that got more views because big numbers get more clicks on YouTube. Uh and then now Adam uh came along and last time he was on the pod and we were talking about his uh what do you call it? The trap trap project? Is it trap rock project, which he thinks is 17, is like, oh yeah, but that thing on the big bad wolf uh roof, V18. So yeah, uh, how's that going? Is that your big uh goal for this season?

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Well, first I'll say unironically, we both do mean it. Like it is just like the hardest thing either of us have tried slash seen. That's clearly possible because every single move in sequence has been done by me or Adam, or Brice, but by Mir and Adam. And uh I honestly don't think that's this year's goal because it's just way too hard. I I I genuinely believe it's it's the hardest thing in the world, so but uh no, everything is is working towards putting serious effort into it because I'm curious. I'm a little scared of trying something that hard because I always have like this weird thought in the back of my mind like what if I don't finish it ever? Like I open this chapter and I never close it, but I don't know. It's right here at home, it's clearly possible, it's hard. I mean, creature was one step I wanted to take towards that because it's a roof, it's burly. You can basically think of this as like creature style, but crimps, like small crimps in the roof. It's pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

I totally when you said like you're scared of opening that chapter, totally made me think of Nale and Burden of Dreams, dude. That's a good name. That whole name when you got sucked into that Burden of Dreams. Uh yeah, say more about this idea about trying something that you're not sure if you'll ever do. Like, why is that scary? Or or uh yeah, just say more on that.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

I mean, even like besides the climbing aspect of it, it's almost similar to like the fear of unknown or something. Like you don't know what you're stepping into, you don't know what's gonna happen, right? Like I don't know. I I think the fear of trying it, putting potentially years into it, you know, and then being like, uh shit, this is too hard for me. Like one, it'd be like a crazy ego reality check, you know. You would have been defeated, which it's not bad. It's like that's part of it, right? But it's it's it would suck. And especially in the spot I'm in right now, it's like I'm I'm not ready to be defeated yet, you know? I don't want to be defeated yet. I wanna feel like I can do it. And I don't not feel like I can do it, but I don't know, it's so much harder. Like, it's weird because I've tried boulders where I don't do the moves, but I know oh, I'll figure it out and I'll do as boulder. But like this one, I have done the moves and I know how hard they are. And in a way, that maybe fucks with me more and makes it harder because I'm like, ah fuck, I know how hard it's gonna be to do this. I am gonna I could fall on the last move for fucking years, you know? I could be rolling the dice like Nale for years.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Just tons of video footage of you fallen. I feel like there's something really interesting there about the willingness to put yourself into a situation where you think you may not send. And I think that is what it takes to do some of the hardest things in the world because it's such an interesting thing where you have to be willing to have it not be possible because it has to be that hard to be on the line, but then somehow have a belief that it is possible for you. And I think it was important what you said where you say, like, you don't want that ego check quite yet. There's something about like sending beget sending. And I I think it is nice to start off a season with like a couple of you know good hard climbs, not super hard, and even on that day that you want to do your project, it's nice to like have a safety tick.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah, safety send. We're big about those.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

It really matters. I I was talking to Cy Moore about something similar, and I was saying how that some of our best sessions were just on a spray wall where like we fail on the same move like the whole entire session, and then like maybe finally kind of stick it. And that that's a little bit different than people who show up, get a lot of volume in. And his his thing was that basically like the better you get, the longer you can handle not doing a move. You know, like that it it's uh almost a mark of expertise, uh uh that you can sit with that like failure over and over and over and over and over again, and then finally get it. And that's just in like a little microcosm of a of a session. Uh, but you know, you see that in some of the best bowls, like, yeah, how long did Nale bang his head against the wall? A long time. Yeah. A long time.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

A long time. And I mean, luckily I have people, I mean, I don't want to keep like bringing up Bryce or like whatever, but we're good friends. And uh luckily I have people like him in my corner who have gone through similar experiences with like his King Condor line, where it's like he knew it was possible for years, but he didn't know how he was gonna do it or when he was gonna do it, you know. He knew he could do it, and I don't know, bringing this up to him, he's always just he basically just makes fun of me. He's like, dude, just try, you know, and and like it's good to have friends around who who you know who like one can make fun of you and you can chat shit with, but two, like, you know it's coming from a place of like love and like just like belief, you know, it's good. And it's good to have people in your corner like that. And I think that's what's important with these kind of projects, because even if you believe in yourself, I feel like sometimes it means more to hear that other people also believe in you.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Yeah, I would I would flip it on its head also where you are just absolutely blessed to have a next level project that is possible, but right at that limit, right there staring at you in your own backyard. And you know, I think uh I was talking to Adam about that too, where he was like, dude, this is like my style. It's right here. It's like it's right here. And just that doesn't happen always. You know, some people literally search the world for that. I mean, that's kind of what a lot of the best climbers in the world have done, where they they go out and hunt, you know?

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Yeah. Well, they uh they missed uh the East Coast for a while for some reason, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

That trap rock project does look good. Like aesthetically, I just was like, dude.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

One of honestly, one of the coolest boulders I've ever seen. Bryce sent me a photo of it when he found or like quote unquote found it one day. He's like, dude, look at this. And I was like, oh, that looks AI. That looks crazy.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

So you've been also competing

Austin’s Love Of Competitions

SPEAKER_00 30:19

a little bit. Like I I guess they're I don't know, they're not like World Cup competitions. They're not like the kind of like sanctioned ones that we all think of, like USAC or or WC. Uh, how does that fit into your life when you're you seem to me to be someone who's mainly focused on the outdoors, but then you've been winning all these kind of like I guess they're more like are they amateur level, but sometimes that feels stacked.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

They're like I would they're we call them just local comps because I don't know, they're just the things we have around in the city and in the in the northeast in general, we just call them local comps better, like open finals, big cash purposes. Like there's dark horse kind of a big name one, Method Underground is a big name one, but I do sometimes partake in USA climbing. Like I did the Vale Mountain games and I did pretty alright. I played second in qualities behind Adam, but then I kind of just shit the bed in Sammy's. So I was like, oh I don't want like I'm not trying to flex or anything, but what it showed me was like I was still at this level in competing that I was like proud of and happy of, and I can compete in the US at least with some of the people I consider the best. I just need to do it more often and like work on my mindset a bit. But I don't know, I'm a naturally competitive person and outdoor climbing. Yeah, while I do compete with my friends, like Adam and Bryce, and it's fun, it's not the same as actually competing with them or competing with these people who you look up to. And I think the competitions are like an outlet to one, get my competitiveness out, and so I don't have to bring it to the outdoors because it's not always useful. And two, I just I genuinely I I genuinely love them. It's it's really fun. And while it's not like the career option I chose because I didn't see it as viable in the climbing world being a professional competition climber, I I don't think I would ever stop. And I even maybe plan on doing uh the team trials event this year in USA climbing maybe to see if I can fulfill a dream of competing in at least one World Cup at some point. I think that would be rad. And I have goals in the competition sense that that motivate me, but definitely don't motivate me as much as my outdoor goals. So when it comes to pursuing them, they usually like are a tier below, and the outdoor goals usually take the top spot. So I don't get to focus on them as much, but they're there.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

It's funny how the cash purse for those local comps are like bigger than the World Cups. Uh yeah. Tall, tall subtopic. Um, well, something that you are always saying about just climbing everything. Like it makes me think of how you know you just have this desire to climb it all. And and plastic is right there. I I think like chassis limestone, uh, pristine plastic, uh, you know, megagranite uh uh egg boulders. Uh and so I just think that the not just the movement or the setting, but like the people, that that scenario, that uh feeling you get when you step out on the mats, which is addictive. Like I love competing, dude. I love that moment. Um and you know, it's like it's but it's very different from being in the woods uh by yourself, like yelling really loudly and no one can hear you.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

It's funny. I was at a comp recently, like literally a small local event in the city, and I get butterfly, like right before going out, I was like talking to uh the girl Jenna I was going out with, and she was like, Man, this is like cool about it. And I was like, I get nervous before every single one of these, no matter what. I get equally nervous. Even if it's small one, it's a big one, whatever. I get I have to pee, I feel like I'm gonna throw up. I get equally nervous because I'm like, it's the same, you know, it's the same emotions going out there.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

How do you make that enjoyable versus not enjoyable? Like when you reflect on that, I can see you kind of chuckling and smiling. But from my experience, and maybe yours is different, in that moment, I am nervous. I was talking to my wife about this where when you're about to do something scary, and that could be you know, stepping on the mats in front of you know a thousand people, it could be like a highball boulder. I'm always like, what am I doing? Like, I'm not happy right now. I'm like scared, you know, I'm like nervous or whatever. And then when I do it, I really enjoy it. And when we look back on it, we think like, oh, that's like really cool to put yourself in that situation. But it's this weird thing where like actually you actually are nervous and not having fun. Like, or maybe you are, like, because usually I'm like sitting there in ice, I'm just like, fuck, like, why am I here?

SPEAKER_01 34:54

What am I doing? I think you're you're totally I you're you're you're very right. And honestly, if I like to be completely honest, like sometimes I'll walk away from an a comp or an experience and I'll be fucking upset. I'll be bummed. Like at Veil. I like I said, I I qualified really well, place high, and and then going into semis, I was feeling myself. I was like, okay, I can compete. I'm just I'm supposed to be here, you know. I get imposter syndrome now and then, but I was like, I'm supposed to be here. And I shit the bed in semis. It was a weird round. I wasn't ready. It was hot, you know. I was the last to go out, it was hot. And after that, I was I was bummed for like, I don't know, probably a week, two weeks, three weeks, and I was like, I'm not I'm done competing. Like it just fucks with me so mentally sometimes, you know, and that was super hard, and it wasn't fun. It was not fun. It was fun for the extent I was on the mats, but every other part of it wasn't. But now in the the spot I'm in, thinking back on it, I I can understand, like I can learn from it at least, and I can be like, okay, what did I really expect? I went there to climb outside, I went to compete at Vale just because I was there. I didn't train for it. I was just trying to use my like quote unquote natural comp ability, so I can't be that bummed. I still did pretty well, and I don't know. I need a lot of time to think about things, sometimes at least, and it's just that was one of those moments. And like you said, other times, as Carlos said actually in the last attempts, I'm able to use the the pressure to to my advantage, and like especially at at this Method Underground comp. It's like the gym I set at. It's my home crowd. I really like the special energy there, and the pressure allows me to make like really good decisions. Like I can like see bait, I can see every single bait, I can like okay, I can skip from here to here. I don't need to use that hold. Like I don't know, but it it sets me into this like uh OB carry-on coaches me sometimes, and he he told me to just see it all red during competitions, and like sometimes the pressure just like you know, you blink and now it's all red, and you're just like straight line to the top.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Oh, those moments are special. It's but it's not like a guaranteed, like you were saying, it doesn't always happen. I I was uh I was at some concert a few days ago, and they had a bunch of surf films on in the back, and they were like playing music to the surf film, like riffing on that, which was pretty cool. Uh yeah. And I was just reflecting on how like when we watch this media around our sport, whether it's climbing, surfing, skiing, kind of like these like cool sports, and we make it look so like there's this vibe, you know, these playing like chill music to it, like it's all just flowy and awesome. And I was just like thinking about even when I've surfed, actually, I shouldn't uh talk about surfing because I'm not very good at it, but like in climbing, you get nervous and scared, and you know, like maybe you're like talking to yourself, like you're like, oh fuck, like, oh shit, you know, I'm so pumped, and just everything about it can be so intense. And you know, there's a big emotion of relief when you send or whatever, but all the like outside perspective is like you know, so positive and it's so like enjoyable and chill, and like for me at least, like the internal monologue is not like some flowy awesomeness, it's like intense and extreme. Of course, we want to make this stuff look as cool as it is, but sometimes it's flowy and feels really awesome, but that's not all of climbing. And sometimes you're it's kind of wild, it's kind of scary, yeah, kind of extreme.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Yeah, you're so right. That's that's funny. I've never really thought about that. And I don't know if this like necessarily is exactly what we're talking about, but it just made me think like a lot of people correlate climbing to like Zen masters and like their one with themselves and they're like inner peace and stuff. But I feel like personally, and maybe a lot of other people can relate to this, I find myself being pissed at myself. Like, I'm like, what the fuck? You suck right now, you know? Like it's kind of like it's like I feel like a lot of climbers, like negative self-talk, they're like, oh, that's soft, you know, or this or that. Like it's not as peaceful. It's it's this weird, I don't know, it's like this weird middle ground, and I feel like it all just comes back to there's no right way to do anything, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Yeah, yeah. I like that. I like that linking it. And the thing that I think is important for people to understand is there is that like almost like Zen attitude, or like thinking that's what it's like. And I think that while there can be moments of that, like sounds like Hamish just lives in that world, but uh we can't all I think that where that breaks down, where it's important to understand, is that climbing hard is hard. And just because you do a V10 doesn't mean when you climb a V6, like it's always going to be just casual. Like sometimes it is, sometimes it's just in your wheelhouse, you overpower it because you're you've got oodles of strength of spare. But like then when you go and climb V11 and V12, that V10 doesn't become like the V6. It's still hard. And I I just I think it's always important for people to understand like when you get better, it allows you to like dig even deeper. It's like even more miserable in a way.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

I mean, literally, my favorite quote that Bryce has ever said was if it was easy, it wouldn't be hard. And like at face value, it kind of sounds silly and obvious, but I was like projecting Lucid during the time, and I was like, I'm like, I can send it, why can't I send it, right? And he was just like, dude, if it was easy, it would not be hard. I like had to think about it and like I internalized it and it made a lot of sense to me in the moment and it worked for me. And it's it's true, like you said, it's climbing is hard. Is it there was this kid a method that kind of would rage a little bit when he couldn't do a hard boulder? And I was talking to some of the coaches, and I was like, dude, someone has got to tell this kid that climbing is hard, and that's what's cool about it. Like it's not gonna get easier.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

So, how do

Maintaining Motivation

SPEAKER_00 41:05

you deal with it when things get hard and you lose your psych and you have to keep showing up? Like, tell me about motivation over the long term when you're climbing on some of the hardest blocks.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yeah, so I don't know. I feel like motivation is something I've never really struggled with before until recently. Like I went to Colorado, I was psyched on creature, I did creature, I came back home, and all of a sudden I I felt this super like low, not like depression or anything, just unmotivated, you know? And I I hadn't I was like, okay, usually I feel unmotivated or a little bummed, like for a week when I get home from a trip, that's normal. Everyone is like that, I feel like. But I was like, damn, it's been three weeks, I'm still unmotivated, I don't want to train. I I I genuinely I was like, I don't know why I'm unmotivated, I don't know what it is, maybe it's just summer heat, whatever. But I was trying to find a bunch of different ways to relight the flame, you know, and the one thing that seemed to work for me was just I guess switching it up a little bit or like picking something to be hyper focused on. Like for me, I was like, alright, you know, I never invest a lot of time in seriously like board climbing or tension boarding, you know. I'm I'm curious about this like hard style of climbing. I use it to train, but I never use it to just like I don't treat tension boarding like my outdoor projects. I don't project on the board. So I was like, you know what? Let's find a project that I can try whenever, in any conditions, and it's gonna be fun. So I just started projecting on the board. And for me, that was enough to relight my flame and like kind of be like, oh, this is what climbing's about again. And you know, I feel like without uh switching it up a little bit, I would have been stuck looking for that in the same spaces. I always looked for it. And I maybe maybe I would have found it, but maybe it would have taken another three months, you know? That's it was like a weird it was a super weird uh situation for me. And I'm sure I'll encounter moments like it again. I mean, I'm sure everyone encounters moments like it, but yeah, that was what

Support From Patreon

SPEAKER_01 43:12

worked for me.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who helped make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else, and those episodes are ad free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay, back to the pod. I think it's interesting that when you see yourself as being unmotivated, you like still have some like underlying motivation to try to get yourself out of being unmotivated. You're like, oh, like I'm not motivated, and that's an issue. Versus like if you're really unmotivated, you're like, I don't even care. Like, who who cares? But I I gotta ask, what was your TB2 project or or projects?

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Yeah. Uh well wait, before I answer that, I'll say I think that does uh come back to the idea of like having the overarching goal. Like I know my goals for the season, you know, and they are what motivated me to like find my motivation. But anyways, uh yeah, so uh tension board projects. I usually just have the 12 by 8, so I'm stuck trying Noah's boulders at 45, which is good for my training, but bad for my ego. They're all so hard. I feel like every Noah Boulder V10 to V13 is the same grade. So I never really think about grades when I try his boulders or anything. I just think about, oh let me try to do this one that's weird or uncomfortable. Like I'll get better. But recently I've been going back to classes, and up here there's this Mustangs uh bouldering gym that has the uh 12 by 12, mirror 12x12. So I finally get to try some like Sean boulders, which I always assumed would be much more fun and more in my style than Noah Boulders, and for me they definitely are. So I've been trying a lot of his shit. Um so I've been most curious about uh trying to do a board V14 just because I feel like that's one of the highest levels of board climbing in my head or whatever. So I was like, oh, let's see if I can attain that. And I've been trying Sean to invert the system at 60 degrees, which was is super fun and like technical and outdoorsy. And I've also been trying his uh freeing Atlas one, which was like the one he gave 15, and then yeah, you know, bounced around. It seems like it's about 14, it's super cool and unique board style. I they're just like there's they're more fun for me because there's like microbit on them, you know, and like you can get technical, and it's not all grab this mini pinch and jump as far as you can, because I just it's good for me, but I'm just not as good as I could be at it, so I mix it in, but it's fun to try the Shawn boulders, they're really fun.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

I just saw your comment on some new FA, some new board problem that no it did. You like that. Yeah, you were like, that is not V13. I think he got it, was it 12 or 13? It just looked it looked insanely hard.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

V13, yeah. Yeah. Uh dude, it was I was like, I know those holds. That is I swear to god, that's V15 outside.

unknown 46:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Uh it's funny because I do think V14 is now like the board standard where V13 seemed really hard on the TV2, and now people just crush them on the regular. I mean, flash them like in a session, they can they might flash like seven of them. Uh, but v14 is still a touch elusive. And although I just will say the big numbers for clicks on the board talks, v15 still seems a little, I don't know, a little questionable there. Uh, you know, despite Hamish's shout-out on that one. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah, yeah. I mean, Brian seemed to think that that Hamish one was maybe a little a bit off. So I mean, well, you talked to him, so I'm sure you you know, but yeah, I agree. The board grades are all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

I mean, I I think like grades are always this weird thing and every board is different. And so it's not to say that those aren't unbelievably hard boulders, and then styles come into play and everything. Uh but I would say that when I see someone climb a V14 on a board, I still think of that as being like the pinnacle of uh in TB2 world uh of kind of the board climbing. And I say that also because I've only climbed B13 on the board, so I'm like, ah, like damn, you're so close. Yeah, I I don't think so. Um, although, anyways, all right, I don't want to get sucked into that because I saw some I saw like a Brian Squire uh climb on these like dogbone pinches that looked so cool, like at like 60 and he called it 14. I don't it's not classic, so are there any classic 14s? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

I because I think oh shit, you're asking the wrong person, honestly. But I think how soon is now is classic, and then there's a good point. You're asking the wrong question.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

Good point. Yeah, we don't even have Will on here. We can't we can't say it. Yeah, speaking of uh Will and and now good temps, I I went to board talk for for a moment though, but you know, got those a big part of my podcasting life, man. They take up 50% of it. Uh I I'm kind of curious

Climbing’s Generational Divide

SPEAKER_00 48:23

about your experience on good temps, where you know, we act like you're super young, but the truth is you're you know you're like 10 years younger than us. Or wait, are you 25 or are you 23?

SPEAKER_01 48:37

I'm actually I'm 23.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Are you 17? Are you are you okay? I'm actually I can't even be on the radio. Dude, by the way, when I had Beckett on, I had to get his dad to sign the release form, which was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

Man, um God, Beckett's still on a tear. Uh, anyways, okay, you are actually then like a full you know notch or two of a generation different than kind of like me, Carlo, and Will. Uh Allison is you know somewhere in between our ages. But yeah, I kind of wanted to see what you've learned from being on good temps and seeing our takes on things and just how you differ. I mean, it's so great having you on there to you know provide a different perspective. But then you know, I'm sure you kind of heard us say things that like maybe surprised you. You're like, wow, like I I didn't realize you guys would see it that way.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Yeah, no, I well, first, I mean, I'm very appreciative to be on it. I it was cool how it kind of just worked out at some one point. And I was like, when you first were telling me about it, I was like, oh, that's sick. I'm gonna be on a podcast at Carlo Traversi and Will Anglin. That's sick. And then uh and Josh and Josh. Yeah, what about me? Yeah, sorry, sorry. He did the Mandala. I can't yeah, kinda allegedly. But uh no, but I was I was super psyched, and I I I I think I I viewed it as an opportunity to like kind of learn about things that I maybe I didn't know about and and like be the like you said, the quote unquote uh younger generation like voice. Uh not that I want to say I speak for everyone, because I definitely don't. I have my own opinions and everyone else has their own, but no, it's uh it's super cool. I'm I'm honored, but the biggest difference I think I've I've uh I've realized throughout the time generationally is the idea of like spraying culture and like sharing your your sins and your failures and stuff. Because one thing that was super interesting to me was Carlos' perspective on not sharing failure, you know? And I when he explains it, it makes total sense. I totally get it. But for my view, like I get so inspired seeing the best in the world like fail. Because I'm like, ah, that makes sense. I fail too. So I I guess it's just there's like these mini generational gaps, and that's like the biggest one I could think of. I mean, the spraying one too, I guess it's a little different, but I came up spraying, you know, like that was what it was.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Yeah. For me. I was brought up so anti-spray, and it made me kind of like sad. I'm pretty extrovert. I like talking about climbing, and it's just like, you do not talk about beta. You I mean, I do still try to, I don't like I'm I'm not gonna like roll up to some random crew and just see them flailing and missing a foot. Yeah, but like I will say that I if I see someone making an egregious error over and over again, I go, hey, would you like a a tip? Which sounds kind of like No, I think that's good. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

People appreciate usually I I I know you're gonna Yeah, I feel like if it's coming from a place of like somewhere like if you maybe you don't just maybe if you like are talking to them a little bit and it's not just like the first thing you say. I think it's I think it's good. I I personally believe like you can learn something from anyone. I don't think there's any problem in that. But to say something about the I I feel like I I did come up in this middle era where spraying wasn't actually like super in yet. It was kind of just starting to be in. So I was a sprayer on Instagram. I posted a lot. I I was like proud of things I did, and it definitely bit me in the ass a little bit too. Like coming up, I had a reputation for being the annoying kid that sprays a lot, you know? And luckily I managed to like I mean, I don't think I actually climbed out of that reputation. I think now I'm just better, so people maybe care about the shit I'm spraying about more, maybe. You're only allowed to spray if it's badass stuff.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

It's like no one cares about your V4 Austin, but that that rings true.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

It's kind of is true, it's right, it's kind of elitist, but it's kind of true.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

Not that I agree with it. I wonder if so Carlo was, or I guess is a professional climber, but you know, kind of think of his heyday as being uh a while ago where he was you know one of the top climbers. And I think that the media world was different, and what you kind of wanted to project was almost superhuman. It was just I show up to boulders and I do them. And then if you look at like the videos of the era, it's like I struggled on this boulder or this route, and then I did it because I'm the kind of person who does it in the end and all that struggles. We all know that like I still, yeah, we still sense. Yeah. And so I think that there's a projection of being a professional at that era of like, I am amazing. And you know, with the way the world works now and the way we have this kind of personas of always on, I think we reward authenticity more because it's just like I I'm gonna have to post every day. It seems to be what basically pro climbers or or pro athletes or or celebrities do. And it's just this is the reality. Like I'm hurt, you know, like I or I'm I'm trying this thing and uh I failed on it and it was a bummer. Uh or I said, you know, and I think it may be like a difference of just what our media kind of has led us to to behave as like authenticity versus like superhumanness.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

I agree fullheartedly. Like, and and like I said, authenticity to me is what inspires me the most. And it was interesting. Like I think my biggest moment of like confusion when it comes to this was I went to Switzerland like last February to try a rival of the birds. I've recorded it, I have some footage. I've like I played on it. I didn't do well, it was raining a lot and it was mostly wet, but I I played on it. There was no footage of it, and I like posted a poll on uh Instagram or YouTube under my Vs account, and I was like, oh, are people curious to see this? And like an overwhelming amount of people were like, Don't post it, don't ruin the mystique, and blah blah blah. And like like I understand where you're coming from, but to me it was so hard to fathom like the idea that people didn't want to see it, because that gave them more psych than seeing it. And you know, I didn't I didn't end up posting it, and I was I I spoke to Kenny, I like went it was a mad rock trip. I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this. And I spoke to Kenny and I was like, hey, like I actually think the people don't want to see this. Like I guess I like was wrong. And in the end, I think I made the right choice by by not posting that stuff because I think it would have brought me more flack or whatever, but I was like, I was like, damn, I'm confused.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

I don't know if I agree with them or with actually how you interpreted that. Have you ever heard of this idea of stated preference versus revealed preference? You ever heard that term?

SPEAKER_01 55:40

I've I haven't heard of it, but I feel like I can maybe infer a little, but maybe not.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

Yeah, just this idea like people say they want something a certain way, but then the way they act is completely opposite. And so they may say that they don't want to see a rival of the birds footage because there's like this mystique of Sean's like miserable video. Has we ever have we ever seen Aiden do it? I don't know. Um they just teased it. They teased it, yeah. So yeah, it's like they're like, no, we don't want you to ruin the mystique. If you post it, they'd be clicking on it, they'd be looking at it, they'd be critiquing your beta, they'd be yelling at you for ruining the mystique and saying you're weak and everything. And so they they may say that they don't want, but they actually would participate and be very active around is my hunch.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

No, I and I I do think you're 100% right again about that. Like they 100% would participate, would hate, watch, whatever. But I guess to me, I was like, I don't want to be the guy that that is known for ruining the mystique of the like I don't want people to go around being like, I don't know, I'm a firm believer in like not caring what people think about you or whatever, but at the same time, when you're trying to be a professional climber, like you have to care what people think about you. Like it's these two roads that go the opposite way, but you kind of have to walk both of them somehow.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

Yeah, it's really interesting about this idea of being authentic and being yourself, yet still being able to take feedback and adjust. And I mean, I think that you know you can take a cynical view on that and say, like, oh, well, then you're not really being authentic. That's like audience capture is kind of the term. But then I'm also like, dude, if you were with your friends and you like made a bad joke or behaved inappropriately and they were like, hey, dude, like we don't like that, then you would change because you want to be the best version of yourself. You want to be yourself, but you want to be the best version of yourself. And so I I think that's you know, interesting that like you reach out to your audience, you're like, hey, like what should I do here? And I think that is still being authentic. It's just that it's not being pig headed and being like, I'm only gonna behave this way. It's like you gotta read read the room a little bit and behave in a way that makes you the best version of yourself, I think.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

Yeah. No, I I agree. I think that's a good way to put it.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

Well, I do think you represent the younger generation on good temps. We we wanted that, of course, but we also wanted your northeast vision, this this idea of you know getting to see kind of not just have all of our stories be about Yosemite because you know, like I live near Yosemite or something. And then you went to Yosemite and you're all psyched on too, or whatever. Um and then I went, yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, and then you went uh oh, it's Yosemite. That's right. There's a lot of rock there. People like rock climbing there. Uh I was kind of curious about what you view around the younger generation coming up because I just mentioned Beckett uh on accent. We were talking about how he had to sign a release because Beckett Shin did some very hard boulders and he's not even 18, he finally got his license, so watch out, boulders. And there's some clear differences in how you approach climbing and how you climb compared to my generation, where when I saw you do that double clutch on lucid dreaming, and it's just like, oh, that's really interesting, and just that kind of thinking has changed. And so I'm curious, even though the generation that's younger than you is still kind of up and coming, I wouldn't say they've kind of planted their flag. Is there anything you've seen in your gyms or in your sessions where you're like, ooh, that's a new approach or that's different, or maybe you guys view media differently, just anything that stands out to you in in the younger generation?

SPEAKER_01 59:24

Let's see. I mean, I don't know the broader, like whole country, you know. I know the Northeast, younger generation coming up. I know a good amount of them because they show up to most of the local comps and stuff. And to me, what seems to be like maybe the biggest difference now is we kind of touched on it before, but like everyone just climbs V13 on the board. It's like something that's absurdly insane to me, because to me, V13 on the board is uh like super hard. I do not do a V13 on the board most sessions. Maybe sometimes I could do a few in a session, but most of the time I won't do any. You know, so to be able to watch these kids that can just show up and do a V13 every session on the board, I'm like, you guys uh are stronger than me. There's something missing still, like you said, they haven't planted their flag. I feel like in this like board climbing generation, there's still something missing because it seems like people are having a hard time translating it to outdoor climbing. Because in my head at least, if you're climbing that hard on the board, you can climb even harder outside. You have the strength threshold. You know? Like it's there. So I guess this like transitional period is maybe something they're missing because they're like so psyched on the board and so psyched on pushing that. Maybe they're not pushing it outdoors as hard, but they're also just like freaks when it comes to that. So it's hard to hard to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

So when I started climbing, gyms were not a thing, really, and they were definitely looked at as training for outdoors, you know, just this idea that you could come inside and climb and it's in your neighborhood versus you have to drive a ton of hours. Um, it was definitely thought of as like this little thing you could do when you're not climbing outdoors, right? Like it was just, oh, like cool, great, I get to show up. And and and then gyms begat a bunch of volume that didn't exist before because it's hard to go out and climb all the time. And it's also hard to find steep rock to climb on all the time. It's also hard to find that much variety. And I just think we're just on this continual trend of having more and more access to indoors and hard indoors, and it's not that it's like divorced from outdoors, like it's still climbing. And you know, the classic example is you know, like Tamoa winning a bunch of World Cups, then going and flashing V14, and like a crimpy V14, like a very like kind of class, almost born bored. That was graded V16. Oh God, I didn't even remember that. Uh and I just find it interesting that like we're just there's more and more time spent indoors on these uh training tools or maybe not trained who tool, just like an end unto itself. Like, I mean, there's boardlords, there's a competition out there, and and I I think there'll be even more of that. Like my project into the future, I don't think we're gonna see less boardlords or less taking the board seriously. We're gonna see more of it. And so, yeah, I wonder what that means as far as yeah, what does this say? Does this say that they have a high ceiling, that they can take outdoors? Like, is it becoming more niche and we're gonna see people get really, really good only on the boards? I'm not sure because it there's still a relationship between outdoors and indoors.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:45

Well, you earlier said that board climbing was like super close, or not super close. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you basically were just like, oh, board climbing connects to outdoor climbing, right? Like that's the connection for the indoor climbing. And I agreed with that until recently, I feel like now I'm starting to feel like they're like separating further and further somehow because and it's not a bad thing. Like I I I feel like I should preface everything I've said with like I'm extremely inspired by the kids I see that are doing boulders that are incredibly hard for me on the board, like it motivates me. But uh I feel like the board climbing and outdoor climbing are like getting further and further away because people like you said, people are so psyched on it, and maybe it's just gonna be its own like it kind of is its own subculture of climbing already. It just feels like they're getting further away. They were once like the connection, they bridged the gap. Like board climbing bridged the gap, and now it feels like it's kind of expanding.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

Well, it's funny that you say that because I think one of the the classic examples of that is Sean Rhm, and you're you're talking about playing on his hard boulders, and yeah, he's in the middle of nowhere, Midwest, with Na La La Rock climbing. And I find his setting on the boards to be fascinating, really different, like uh inverted world. I I mean it's just very creative. It's someone who's looking at it incredibly different, yeah. And just like his his lens for how he views setting and movement on boards, I think is different. And he is incredible on the boards. And uh then he's been spending some time on rock in in Colorado. I think he did. Did he do Etchela? Did he do the the low start or just Echel A?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

Yeah, he did the low start. He did the low start.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

What's it called? Is it is it like Echel A, is there a better name?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:32

Yeah, Echo Echelo, Echelo.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:34

Oh, Echelo. Okay, that makes sense. Um, which I have tried. I will say it's it's got some board-esque ideas to it, you know, and uh and it's well set. Uh I'll say that. Yeah. And you know, so it's not totally surprising to me that he did that. But that boulder is still hard as fuck. Like it is hard as fuck. And it is outdoor climbing. It's not and so it's funny because you take someone who like reaches this almost pinnacle of movement in a unique way that only boards could do, spends a lot of time there. And still, like when he sets his mind to something outdoors, I I don't think he when I say set his mind, I don't think he like spent 50 sessions to to do that outdoor boulder. I think he probably did, you know, relatively quickly.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

He just exactly. And I think Sean is an anomaly because I actually think he would be much better at outdoor climbing. Not that he's bad at board climbing, but I think he would be much better at outdoor climbing than he is board climbing if he put as much time into outdoor climbing as he did board climbing. Because I think his style just lends itself to the outdoor climbing where like he is so strong and he's clearly so technical. So I I I genuinely believe he's like an anomaly when it comes to that. Because he he he has potential to be incredible at outdoor climbing too.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

That's interesting you say that. I I mean I I assume he has uh potential to be great outdoor climbing. I don't want to throw Sean under the bus at all. Uh but it was interesting when he did sorry, Sean. Sorry. Okay, he did uh was it freeing Atlas and it was really hard for him. And then Daniel came along and did it quite easily, Daniel Woods. Um, and when you think of Daniel, although gosh, Daniel actually has like incredible history on boards, like in cats, like it it's it's not fair to say that he's not a board climber because he has he actually is maybe one of the first superstar climbers who kind of grew up on boards, it was just a different board. Um actually I shouldn't even say that. There has been board climbing forever, anyways. But he kind of did that one easily and in that kind of slow, controlled like when he does that shoulder move, how the hell does he like static ironcross? Like it's like a slow iron cross, like iron cross is one.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:53

It's insane.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

Yeah, and so it's funny because I've seen Sean, I've met Sean in person, and he's also an interesting body type compared to some of the outdoor clients. He's like a barrel, dude. The guy is very muscular, um, very big shoulders. And so, yeah, I don't know. It's like interesting to me that you see him and see his climbing in a style, and you think perhaps like it could really excel outdoors. Where I don't know if I got that read instantly.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

I I and you know, maybe I don't know. I'm not not I feel bad talking about Sean, but I like Sean a lot, and he's a good person kid, and and he's psyched. And I and maybe he wouldn't excel in everything, but like I don't excel in everything. I think he would excel on the boulders like creature or like these roof boulders that are in like Exodia even. I feel like Sean could do extremely well in something like that, you know, if he just puts in the time. And don't even dwell on it, but I just want to like that's kind of the in my mind how I view it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:47

Well, there is something to be said where whatever discipline a person ends up being in when they excel at, it's likely that they would excel in another discipline as well. Right? Like Tomoa. I don't know tomo's past, but he is a comp climber. And I know he climbs all sorts of other things, but that is where he ended up putting all of his time and effort. And whether that was because he loved it or because that was where the money was for him, or it was because he excelled at, it's wouldn't be surprised if Tomo all of a sudden said, you know what, guys, like I'm now going to be like a big wall granite climber and he moved to Yosemite. My hunch is you give him a couple of years, he would be excellent at it too, you know? Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:29

Okay, well, uh, before we totally leave this topic of, you know, kind of like the the younger generation, um, you know, something that is a big divide between your generation and mine is like V17, you know, and uh you know, 15D and stuff like that. Like things changed, and we can point to whatever reason you kind of cheekily talked about boards being the reason. And it may be, but it's just the whole everything. Uh and so what do you think about what's coming? You know, you're around, you grew up with you know, some of these people who are currently pushing some of these limits, and you've got a V18 project. Like when you're doing you know good temps in 10 years, what do you think the news will be then? Are we gonna be seeing 10A's and V19s? Or you know, like, yeah, what's your vision of the future?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:20

I think the news back then will be like Austin Waite receives a million dollars for his good temps appearance, you know what I mean? Like kind of that no. Uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:31

Maybe with a lot of inflation, just massive inflation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:35

By the way, just want to be clear that none of us earn anything from good temps. I just want to be clear on that. That's that you're not getting paid. Sorry, bud. Sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

Um well, okay. Right now, like everyone says, I'm a I'm a believer in the the idea that we don't know what V17 is yet, and we definitely don't know what V18 needs yet. So, like when I say V18 project, it's based on what's happening right now, you know? Like it maybe isn't, maybe it is, but I think in the future we'll we'll see. I think it's all cyclical for one. Because 16 had this weird moment, and now there's a lot of 16s, and some 15s get upgraded. I think we'll kind of have this weird moment with 17 almost in the opposite way, but it's still a weird moment where it's like things that could be 16 are getting put up at 17 and they'll get fixed. And I know a lot of people disagree with this, but I kind of feel like we have a long like maybe not a long way, but we have a way to push still. Like I mean, like we just talked about for the last hour, like people are incredibly strong, like so many people are so strong now. Imagine if uh those same people got incredibly good as well. I mean the ceiling would be super high. We're talking like probably two, three grades harder than what we know now. I don't see why not. You can always stack more hard moves. It's gonna be hard to find it. Yeah, for sure. But I'm sure shit exists. I can't speak on the sport climbing front because I honestly I don't know sport climbing as well as I know bouldering. I don't sport climb often, but I mean in bouldering, I really think that we've seen what we can conceive of as possible right now, but I don't think we've seen what they can conceive as possible in the future, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:17

I do think that when you see someone climb extremely hard on the boards with amazing finger strength and pulling strength and whatever that style is that they've understood with the coordination to do those hard moves. I believe that technique has a physical component, you know, body tension, keeping your foot on, understanding how to move through it. But I think it's reasonable to think that someone with unbelievable finger strength and pulling strength has the capacity to develop unbelievable body tension as well. Like it just seems like, you know, it'd be weird if, say, you could grow like a really big bicep, but you couldn't grow like a really big shoulder, it'd be like, if you have like the predisposition to being strong, my hunch is that you have the ability to also gain that strength that is required for that connection through the body that is sometimes lacking on these bored jump and latch climbs. Um, and so it does seem to me like if we're seeing people showcase this ability in that specific microcosm, that we will microcosm is my word of the day, that we will see it uh expand onto the outside. So I'm I'm with you, although I still am like it's like always hard for me to believe that's gonna happen. Like it's so wild how hard some of these climbs are already, and then to think what like a V20 is going to be. I I just and I know these are like arbitrary, but you know, it's it is true that like a V20 will be harder than a V17. Like it just it will be.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:53

Yeah. I mean, for me, my example is like, I don't know, when we found that trap rock project, the Adams All Psyched on, Bryce and I tried it a bit and it was clearly possible, but we were like, oh, this is fucking hard. Like for me is at least, I was like, this is like hardest move I've ever seen. Like, this is next level. And then Adam, he comes over and it's extremely his style. He's like, he's perfect for the boulder. And obviously he doesn't think it's easy, but he's like, oh, sick. I'm extremely excited to do this boulder. Whereas I was like, oh sick, I'm extremely excited to see someone do this boulder in the future. You know what I mean? So there's projects we find that I'm just like, oh, like, yeah, that's fucking hard, but someone will do it because someone will be meant, not like meant to do it in like uh destiny kind of way, but like they'll be built to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:44

I wonder if having people like you going out there and finding these boulders, uh, which sometimes like the trap rock pro were found before, like it's not fair to say that it was found by by you guys, but I I think in today's world there's probably more cataloging of like, hey, here's a pin, like you have a little note, you know, uh heinous one mover, like really big, but to a jug, and then you start finding all these, and maybe they're kind of like categorized. It probably opens up the ability for people to go out and try them where if it just takes like word of mouth or it has to be discovered again and again and again, it's like this new generation discovered this boulder, still not time. Like, you know, let's wait for the next generation. Uh yeah, I wonder if like there will be more sharing of projects of this level because it's like, hey, this one's not for me, but maybe it's for you, and I have like a catalog of 200 pins, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:44

Yeah, I think like I see a future where like there's apps like Kaya or Gunks app or all like these guidebooking apps where they only list projects, you know. It's like here there's like a map of all the pins in your area with all the projects V15 and up. And I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, honestly. I don't I I don't see an argument for it being a bad thing, but I can understand why someone would say it is. But I totally see that in the future, and I think it would be sick. That's like how you get to the next level, is is is sharing and like showing and people because people don't know like the people that are incredibly like Noah, for example. Noah is so so strong, he's so psyched. But what he's not psyched on is going and hiking for two hours to find something that maybe goes, maybe doesn't, or maybe he'll find nothing. But some people are psyched on that. And and to me, I I I just view it as like, oh, I like that part. And if I'm gonna find a boulder that's perfect for Noah, I might as well share it with Noah. Like, you know, I'll find one that's perfect for me at some point and I'll get to do it. It's the beauty of it. Like, I don't know. Maybe people aren't like that anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:51

I think that is a divide in our generation where there is much more gatekeeping, much more you have to earn your spot to be told about this area or about this boulder. And that's something that I'm not a a big fan of. I'm I just I I just don't like that. Uh, because I always think of this this quote, something like, you're not in traffic, you are the traffic. And I would see so many people complaining about the growth of bouldering or the growth of climbing. This was kind of you know, maybe 10 years ago, and all of a sudden Bishop is crowded. And and as someone who has been climbing for way longer than those people, they think they're like OGs, you know, they're like, I've been climbing for three years, and now the buttermilks are crowded. I'm just like, no, you, it's it's you. Like, yeah, it's you, and that's fine, and I'm okay with that, but don't act like you know, you're somehow different or better than them. And so this idea of like gatekeeping project, it's uh with that said, if you go hike somewhere and you find a project and you want to work on it and you don't tell anyone that's totally fine, but it's not somehow terrible if you decide that you want to open it up to then share it on like an app or something. I think that's totally assuming there's no like access, you know, blah, blah, blah. Like let's not go into all the caveats.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:04

Yeah. No, I I agree. I think just the idea of being more open with sharing the projects is how we like just expand the difficulty spectrum. That's a lot of big words. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:16

Nice, nice big words. What are you? Uh some kind of college student in between classes right now?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:22

Something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:22

Yeah, dude, please tell your professor, your digital media major professor. Do they know that you do a podcast and like make videos for climbing and everything?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:30

One of them knows I make like videos and stuff and like knows about my like climbing, professional climbing or whatever, and the other one doesn't. So I'm part-time, so I only have two classes.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:40

But well, your third class is you get extra extra credit for doing good temps and test pieces. Internship. Yeah, you're supposed to pay me. Or wait, wait. Um Okay, Austin,

How To Go From Good To Great

SPEAKER_00 1:17:52

uh, although we get to do these podcasts all the time on good temps, it's been a minute, and I know last time I asked you how do you go from good to great, but it's been so long that I want to ask you again, Austin, how do you go from good to great?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:06

I think last time, I remember what I said last time. It was the idea of trying it all. And 100%. I I think that's what got me to where I am right now. And I think from where I am right now to try to get to the next step, maybe I need to focus on filling the gaps, you know, like like I was saying originally, I I picked my hyper style and I I was going all in on it, and now I'm like, okay, let's move over to the next one and try to fill this gap. And you know, I think that's the era of my climbing I'm in right now, is is filling the gaps and trying to push myself to this next level of climbing, but also I don't want to say thinking, but mindset where I'm not worried about trying these hard boulders that I might not do. I don't know, I didn't I didn't give a good sound note there, but there's some in there. I because I I I I don't know. I I can't think of a I to me, to me, my main point would still be the same main point. But I think I have these little points that deviate a little bit where it's like now I need to fill the gaps here. Instead of focusing so much on everything, let me focus a little more on one thing right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:20

Can I ask you more about what you said where it's mindset about trying hard boulders? Like you, you know, you went to you've been to Burden really briefly. It sounds like you got to try a rival of the birds really briefly. I remember, God, you poor guy, you got rained out in Switzerland. Although you still manage to climb a lot of cool stuff. Uh yeah, how do you shift your mindset to like be like, okay, V17, like it's a hard boulder, but I'm gonna do it or I'm gonna try it and maybe I'll do it, maybe I won't. I I have a hard time with that where especially because I've been climbing so long, and when I was younger, certain grades held mystique for me. And this sounds ridiculous, but like 512 was a really hard grade in my head. Anything 512, and you know, it's it's not hard for me anymore, but there's something weird about me thinking about like 512 is supposed to be hard. Like in my heart, it feels hard, but now that should just be like a warm-up, or you know, I I need to like shift my mindset. Like, how do you do that for something like V17 where it's the hardest grade in the world?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:22

Yeah, that's a great question. And you know, I don't know if I can answer that fully because I haven't sent V17, right? But I think I have learned what it takes to send V17 at least with my efforts recently. And I think the biggest thing has just been not being scared to try because it is it is scary to try, and there's no way around that besides pushing through it. Like when we went to Burden, it wasn't my trip, it was Adam's idea, and there was like leftover budget, and there I could like tag along and I was like, oh, cool, let's do it. But I didn't think I deserved to be there originally. Like I was like, I don't climb V17, that's crazy the hardest boulder in the at the time, it was the hardest boulder in the world, you know? And I was just like, oh whatever, I don't deserve to be here. And you know, I made moves on it. I I surprised myself, and from that moment on I think I realized like it's cliche, but the only way you can really like fight through that that imposter syndrome, that fear of failure, is like literally by trying. Because if you don't try, you're already failing. So you're not gonna beat it by failing, you're gonna beat it by beating it into submission, you know. I went to arrival, I also quote like failed there, you know. And I I mean failure is a a it's a tough word, but every single time you fail, you are able to take something away from it, and you can like I was like, oh, I didn't do the hard moves, but you know, I I could. I could do the hard moves, I know I could. And it's these little things that build up over time and give you the confidence to like push harder and harder.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:56

What's funny is how many times pros like do fail on boulders, but then you don't see it, you know, like we were talking about, like where you just don't even or they like won't go to a place because they're worried they're going to fail on it. Uh and you know, sometimes we put people on a pedestal, we expect them to like do everything, and that's not always the case. Like, you gotta try, you know, maybe, maybe it's good, maybe it's the one that you can do. But it's funny because also I think this is where you will have friends that you know are actually really good, where they do do all the boulders, and maybe they're not V17, but you're like, oh, like that person, like people don't know about them, but they're the kind of person that goes out and does like any V13, and you're just like, that is also really impressive when there's people who don't fail, and it's maybe on an easier grade, but you're just like, ooh, like it kind of cuts both ways, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:48

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I've I don't got anything to add to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:52

You're just yeah, for sure. Okay, well, let's get into a couple of these bonus questions that we have from got my Discord actually, you know, knows you pretty well. You're even in there. I don't know if you got to see them. Yeah. Uh but I saw a few. If you want to hear that QA and other extra behind the scenes content from this episode and others, head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad-free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow, please share this episode with someone who would love it. Okay, see you next week.