Good Temps #17 — The Fastest 9b+ Send Ever, The Evolution Of Rocklands, and Is It Okay To Watch A Stranger’s Session?

Allison’s Trip To Rocklands And How The Area Has Evolved

SPEAKER_04 0:00

One of my strengths as a climber is being able to use pressure to my advantage. And that's why I feel like I did better in comps a lot of the time than I should have. But I have used situations outside in the same way where like more people watching adds to the pressure. And I will always try to first find a way to use that pressure to my advantage. When I did the dark side, I mostly climbed on it by myself. And I had great sessions by myself, nothing wrong. But you know, I was in a projecting hole a bit. I'd spent a lot of time there. And the day that I went there, I kind of came around the corner and there was a few people there. And I was like, shit, like I don't really know if I want to go through this process with a bunch of people. And instead I just said, you know what? Like maybe I'm just going to use this to my advantage. Like they were trying thriller. There was like a good general energy amongst the crew there. And I kind of warmed up and just got a feel for it. And I was just like, I'm just going to try to use this positive energy here to my absolute advantage.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Welcome to the Test Piece Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com/slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Thought it was going to be all of us. And when I say all of us, I mean Carlo, Allison. Thought it was going to be Will as well, but he had to miss today's. And Austin, Austin will be here, but he's at school. I tried to get him to skip school to come on, but you guys said, no, Austin, you should stay in school.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

That's a lie. Josh is trying to be cool. He told him don't skip flat.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

I mean, I just gotta say there's there's definitely a high correlation with people who don't go to school and then climb really hard. Like I know a lot of people who dropped out. And me, I have two degrees, and I feel like those directly took away from my potential. I I think they really did.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

I got really strong when I was in college. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

There you go. Well, he's also a digital media major. And I just felt like if you went to your professor and you're like, I'd like to miss class because I'm on of podcasts, I think he should get like extra credit for that. Like he should be able to just walk out and say, sorry guys, you're studying for this. I just I do it. That's that's what I do. If only school worked that way, Josh.

SPEAKER_04 2:55

This is where we'd launch into the issues with the American education system, you know. Austin should stay in school. He's just gonna miss like a little bit. He'll be back. Yeah.

unknown 3:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

We're hoping to have Austin join us somewhere uh midway through. Although gotta say, you know, he's missed them before from oversleeping, calendar management. I feel like those are the things that they really need to teach you in school, is like how to show up on time and just you know, make it happen. So hopefully we'll see Austin. We'll see. That's uh hopefully get him through. But yeah, Allison, you're back. Welcome back from Zaw. How how how'd it go?

SPEAKER_00 3:32

I'm back. Yeah, I mean it was it was good. It was maybe the hottest season there ever, which is a little scary. But uh yeah, like it was like eighty-five some days slash weeks. I think there was like one day where I felt like I was cold, and then the rest of the trip, like some days were better than others, but there was like some solid week-long spans that were in the eighties. Um, and then I saw some of my friends stayed all the way through August, and it was up up to 90 Fahrenheit by the end of August. So uh that was kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

That's crazy bad.

SPEAKER_04 4:09

That's like this. People were still sending though.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, I mean, uh partially I think what's interesting about Brocklands is it's like there are so many boulders that are like jumping between good holds. So I think if you're picking boulders well, like 70s, 80s is like if you wait till there's no sun or it's in the shade or whatever, it's like it's manageable. Like it's simply not ideal, but it's not like it's crazy. And yeah, I mean it's it's it's pretty wild there now. I think I I always feel like it it does it's like not lost on me that it's a weird sensation to be like walking through the boulders in the middle of nowhere in the wilderness in Africa and just like past somebody on the trail that you like see at the gym and they're like, Oh hey Allison, what's up? And you're like, This is like the we like you didn't even know they were coming. Like it's not like it's a planned thing, you're just like running into people that you see.

SPEAKER_04 4:58

Other side of the world in the wilderness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Yeah. Um so it's it's crazy now, like it's super busy, everybody's all everybody there is climbing really hard, taking it really seriously, super like locked in, focused on projects, and and yeah, it's just completely swarmed. So it's interesting for sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

How many times have you been there and how has it changed since you first started going?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah, I mean I a little break the fourth wall here. Carlo was talking about it before we started recording. Uh I was not going when it was still wilderness-y. This is my second trip, and I went four years ago. And it was similar. I mean, it it definitely is more crowded, and I would say feels even more like intense than the last time I was there. Like everybody's there to send something hard and is like locked in on talking about their training and their rest days and how they're planning with the weather window and like the dew point's gonna be heat. Like, and everybody at one time is all talking about trying to be performing at a super high level. Um, so the the like density of that mentality and attitude is is definitely bigger than uh it was even three or four years ago when I was there. But it was super packed and busy when I was there last time too. So that that wasn't that much different than it was the last time I was there.

SPEAKER_04 6:12

Yeah, Carlo, when did you first go? My first year there was 2012, so um a bit later than other people. I mean, obviously, like you're talking about people like Fred Nicole, and then you know, after that, there was well, I think Todd Skinner was like one of the first down there looking for uh rope climbing in the area. Um, and then he told Fred about it, and Fred started going down there with like Baron Sangrel and um kind of a crew of his friends from Europe, and it was a pretty small crew then. Uh Clem, I think Clem Lascott too was one of the early people down there. And back then there was no paved road over the the pass. It was like a dirt road, and there just wasn't much infrastructure and and really anything, and it was just camping and and that was it was very removed. When I went there in 2012, it the pass had been paved, and there was kind of the start of more of the the housing infrastructure on you know the other side of the pass, like where all the farms and stuff are. Um but my first year there, we actually I was there for three months and we lived in uh Cape we lived in Cape Town for the majority of the time, and then we spent probably three weeks to a month of that in Rocklands when either the weather in Cape Town was a little bit worse, but our goal going down there was to develop a lot of the bouldering around Cape Town, and so we lived in Musenberg the whole time and and just developed on Topside the whole time. And then we did a couple trips up to Rocklands to climb kind of in between, which was great because I it was nice to not be. I mean, it wasn't chaotic in Rocklands then. I think most people were still kind of camping. Um some people were staying in houses, but it was it was quiet, but like starting to ramp up. And then I went again a couple years later, I think it was 2015, and it was starting to get a little bit busier. And we stayed in a house in Rocklands for like a little over a month, and it was definitely like started to feel like that adult summer camp, all your friends are there kind of party vibe, like all the time. And it was kind of cool actually, because there was a bunch of international climbers that that I'd met over the years in competitions that I didn't even know were gonna be down there, and I ended up climbing with a bunch of them, and you know, a bunch of friends from America were there, and people you didn't know were gonna be there were there, and it was like a whole mix. And so um, that was my last trip down there, actually, it was 2015. And obviously you leave and you're like, oh, I'll come back next year, and you want to, but things there's just a lot of places to climb and a lot of places to go. And I climbed a lot of the classics that I was really psyched to climb then. There's been a lot more classics put up since I was there that I'd love to go back for, but there's only so much time, especially in those summer months, to be able to get out there. So um it's it's interesting to see the development of that area. I think one of the more interesting components is like the economical development of like that, those farms and how they've transitioned over the years from purely just being farms on the other side of the of the pass, and now they're they're majority like places to stay and restaurants and like you know, bars and like I mean, it's all still like low-key in a way, like it's not the same instrument infrastructure you'd find in like a city or something, but there's a lot out there that has been kind of built around the climbing community going there. And it's it's it's unique. It's cool. I think it's a really cool place in the world. I think it's obviously really amazing climbing, and it's just a fun place to go, even if even if like the climbing doesn't line up perfectly, I still think it's like a pretty incredible place to spend time.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

So gosh, it just made me realize that the one and only time I've been was in 2015, because I remember seeing you there, which is over a decade, man. Uh that's a long time. Uh gotta say, Cape Town may be one of the most beautiful cities in the world. I just thought Cape Town's just stunning. Uh I also was really blown away by just how out there Rocklands was. And I have this really distinct memory of climbing um wherever Shoshaloza is. Uh I can't remember the name of that area. Uh, but sassy walking to the sassys, yeah, and walking back and it was nighttime, and I had never seen the stars that clearly. Like I've been in the wilderness a lot, you know, like I've camped out a ton, but there was no light pollution there, and it was just beautiful. Um, but yeah, lots of lots of development since then, Carlo. But that's what I wanted to ask you, Allison is kind of what were the climbs of the summer? You know, it kind of seems like there's there's new development, there's new climbs that everyone gravitates towards because they're well, because they're probably cool and new classics. Yeah, what were like the standouts? Like, man, it seems like everyone's talking about X.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Oh man, that's like it's pretty hard to know. Like, I feel like there's such like a circuit of like hard classic, especially like 8B type folders there now that it feels like every other person is doing every other day. Um so I feel like there was a lot of that, like a lot of just people having their first trip or second trip or whatever, and going on like an absolute rampage of those, like you know, Sky and Mondala and Air Star and all the all the like classic hard boulders, people just being strong enough that they're able to come down for one season and just do them all. Um, it seems like I especially thought, actually, for a shout out, that Jan Luca Posh went down there. He's like uh he's a competition climber from Austria. And he I think he flashed like seven of those A Bs or something crazy while he was down there.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Was he the one who flashed Airstar? I think I saw a video of him flashing Air Star. Dude, what a one to flash. I uh I think Air Star may be one of the coolest looking boulders in the world. I I I'd never tried it, but that one is the one that kind of like sits there in my head of I want to do that one.

SPEAKER_04 11:48

The Killian Fish Huber FA, it's pretty sick. It's an amazing boulder, like sitting there right in right in uh at roadside or whatever. It's incredible. It's big, it stands out.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

I know Killian is still like involved in Austria climbing, so it's cool that like one of their comp stars was the first flash of air star.

SPEAKER_04 12:05

Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I I did I did want to point out though, um I I like to keep like accomplishments within like a context of like time period, you know, and so it's cool to see like you you see these tick lists come back from like these young kids going there, and and for sure they're super impressive. Like I I even in my best wasn't able to accomplish what most of these guys are able to do. But I think it's worth mentioning that you know, more than 10 years ago, like when Jimmy went through there on his first couple of trips, and then uh Jan Hoyer as well flashed a ton of like 12s and 13s in his first trip. And I think I think there were days where he flashed like multiple V12s and V13s in the same day. And this was more than 10 years ago, because I was there, I think my first trip down there was one of his first trips there in like 2012 or 2013 or something like that. And I mean, it was like he he didn't seem like he could fall there. And so not to take away from people uh what they're doing today, but I think it's worth keeping in context what people were also accomplishing in that zone like 10, 12 years ago, because it kind of helps understand like progression and how things have changed over time. Like I think it's it's impressive that people were doing that that many years ago, and I think it it it shows how strong Jan and Jimmy were back then as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

So Carla, this is why they called us like the Unk podcast is you're like you're talking about like the old school uh old school dude. I looked for that video by Jimmy. He deleted it. Yeah, did he delete it? Uh dude, he deleted it or something.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

I don't know, it's gone.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

It's gone. I okay, that makes me feel better that I'm not just like really bad at searching Google. But when that came out, I will I like remember going to the gym the next day, and it made my buddies just feel like, what the fuck, dude? Like that we had not seen many, like a V12 flash was a big deal. Then a V13 flash was like, wow, uh that doesn't happen. And then it was just tons of V13 flashes. Uh and I mean that's never going to not be impressive, but I I do think it's important to point out that you know being the first to do something is different than being the second, third, or fourth. And this is why FAs are amazing and important is just having that mindset to do something no one else has done is very different. But I guess I mean I guess I'm saying like flashing a boulder that people have already done, but still, props to Jimmy for that amazing video. Please put it back on, though. That was a classic, dude. He probably has no idea where it is.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

I know. Well, I texted him and asked him where it was because I was looking for it before we went to Rocklands, and he was like, I don't know, check my Vimeo. And I was like, I I did, it's not there.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

Like, you don't even have a Vimeo anymore, dude.

unknown 14:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Jimmy's amazing. Oh, dude, that's so good.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

What I think is is interesting and sort of plays on what I was saying before. Like, I think if you were doing what Jimmy and Jan Hoyer were doing 10 years ago, like that would be major breaking news. You're like one of the best climbers in the world. And I think what feels different in Rocklands right now is it's like there's constantly people who have done five or six of the like most iconic hard boulders in Rocklands in two weeks in a trip there, and you've like never heard of them before, and they like don't have any sponsors, and they're not a pro climber, and they're just sort of doing to me. That's what feels really different there is it's like it feels like every other person is climbing A B and flashing B12 and doing all these things that like ten years ago, yeah, like you said, I mean, had already been done by the people who were trailblazing the sport, but uh what feels like it's pushing forward is the quantity of people that are like capable of climbing at that level.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

That's very true. And and there's I mean, there was a bunch of a sense of the finish line, and I think at least an ascent or two of live and large, and and especially like considering the temperatures down there, that's that's pretty impressive to be able to pull those off. I mean, especially like doing live and large, if you're saying the temps didn't really drop that low, is is pretty crazy. I climbed on that thing one day with Jimmy, and I was like, it doesn't feel that crazy as long as the temps are pretty good, and the minute the sun comes out, it's just like baking, and it's like horrible to climb on that thing. So um it's cool, cool to see people are still getting after it and still pulling through even with with bad temps.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

So yeah, for sure. I I and yeah, Antoine's season down there for sure was was absolutely insane.

SPEAKER_04 16:29

Um Yeah, I have one question for you. So the last season that I was there, there was still like a big push in development. Like Dave was there and Jimmy was there, and like, you know, we were finding like new areas like regularly. Like we would just go walk in a different direction and be like, oh my God, there's a whole new area out here, and we would just start like picking away at stuff. Do you feel like there was a big development push there this year, or do you feel like most people were kind of like picking through the stuff that had been done? I mean, I know there's new things that get put up there every year for sure. Like it's kind of hard to not, but it seems to me, at least from from looking from the outside in, that like at least the major development has slowed a bit. But I did hear Nale was down there, so I'm assuming he was probably putting some new things.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

I mean, Nale, I'm pretty sure has like a standing cabin at Traveler's Rest. He's there every year. Um and every year we go down there, there's some they're going to some new zone. Nothing that's like the one boulder that has was getting a lot of to me at least felt like attention this year is called Popular Opinion. Um is like B12 AB or something, and it's super unique for Rockland's like sloper squeezing, and it's just way out in the middle of nowhere, like in a sort of a new zone that doesn't have anything else around it. But I I think what's like what it seems like is hard is like you need to have a zone that's been so developed for these people that are coming down in giant groups of people to have like enough boulders for everybody to try something. Um I think when people come down in a group when you know some somebody in the group's trying a V7 and somebody else is trying to project V13, like to be in a zone where everybody can sort of have something. Um so it seems like that maybe is what prevents a real shift towards like brand new areas. But yeah, I mean I I think I think the classic people you'd expect are are out there constantly hiking to new places, looking for new boulders, um trying to put new things up. I think they just haven't been overly publicized yet because they're yeah, yeah, still sort of in development.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

So dude, Nolly has become like this generation's Tim Doyle, where you kind of like see him, you think you see him, he kind of like disappears around a corner, you're not sure. You're like, and then you hear that put up some new hard thing. You're like, does he really exist?

SPEAKER_04 18:47

Like I've heard people talk about this guy, but does he I haven't talked to Nolly in years now, but uh, did you see him down there? Did you chat with him, Allison?

SPEAKER_00 18:55

I did not talk to him, I saw him in passing a couple times. He like sits like way in a corner in Traveler's Rest. Um, I think we only overlapped on the BD team like one year or something. So I don't even know if he like remembers who I am.

SPEAKER_04 19:08

I'm sure I'm sure he does.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

But I I haven't I was never within, I would say, 30 feet of him to like start a conversation. But I did I did make visual confirmation that he does in fact exist for that traveler's test.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

He's a real person. Elusive. Yeah. Nale, please come on the pod. Please, please, please join us.

SPEAKER_04 19:28

Dude, you're gonna have to go to Africa and find his cabin and bring your microphone and surprise him because that's probably gonna be the only way. I will make a budget for that. That sounds funny.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

I will I will do that.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Um But yeah, I I would I would say there is a good it feels like there is a good amount of development still happening, just maybe a little bit slowly, and the majority of the people that are there are like looking for the climbing gym vibe of having high density boulders that are already put up that they can just all sort of I mean if Nolly is there, it's assuredly I mean he's I think he's climbed everything, so he's he's probably climbing on new things.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Uh last question for you, Allison. Just any standout moments or boulders? I I saw that kind of heartbreaking reel on El Corazone, but uh it doesn't have to be something super hard, but just you know, give me a little vicarious living of some like great one that you did, whether it was hard or not.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Um yeah, there's this new boulder that I posted also called Shy Halud, which got way more sense this season than it has yet. I think Matias put it up in 2024. Um just a super cool like fridge squeezer. But that was cool just because it's pretty span for me. Like I think you probably have to have either a 5'11 or 6 foot span to reach from side to side. And it's just over like a really terrible landing, so it's scary too. Um so that just felt cool to me because that's sort of a style I've been working on, and I haven't always been the most brave, so it was a cool like mental growth moment to find something that you sort of had a not maybe not a no-fall zone, but like an if you fall, you're gonna you have a good chance of maybe getting a little fucked up. So uh that was cool. Um, but yeah, I mean I really did enjoy working on telcore zone like a hard style type project because it's such a pass-fail move slash boulder. Like you're either doing it or you're not. But that sort of even more so than a boulder like Silute has been a thing I've been working on, trying to do bigger, more powerful moves like that. So I think I would be psyched to go back sometime.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Don't wait 11 years, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

And know what to train and be ready to be a little bit more ready for that move and know what's required. And yeah, it wasn't like the sendiest trip I've ever had, but I feel like I learned a lot. Yeah, actually, trendy boulders. There's this boulder in it's like right on the road. And The don't take this as truth because it maybe it was just a rumor, but it makes sense. The land that it's on changed ownership in the last few years. So now climbing is allowed. And there's a super beautiful V ten, 11 high ball called Cornerstone. And then on the other side there's like a few V9, 10, 11 variations

Laura Rogora Sends Bibliographie 5.15c/9b+

SPEAKER_00 22:21

uh called Base Camp. And those were definitely by far, I would say, the boulders of the season. Every time you drive by there, there was people on both sides all over it. There's like no approach to park and walk two minutes to the boulder. Um, but yeah, I think though that whole boulder in that area is like relatively new just because of the land ownership stuff. So that that was definitely the the boulder of the season, I think for sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

I want to go. I want to go back. It is amazing how hard everyone climbs, where if you were to take a trip to, I don't know, like Bishop or Joe's or something. I'm not saying there's not people climbing well into the double digits, of course you'll see that. But it seems like the people who are willing to make that, you know, from our area, like a 30-hour journey. It's usually people who are on the upper end of the spectrum. And it is mind-blowing, it's just wow, everyone's climbing eight Bs. Like uh it does seem to be the land of eight Bs. You could say they're soft, but uh you can't say that until you go there and do them. So uh if that's what you think, go prove me wrong. Um you guys, let's let's talk about uh sport climbing. Laura Rogora did bibliography, and she did it. Bibliography is a 15C, a 9B plus in Seyuz. Uh super famous, just to the left of biography, the world's first 15A. Uh no, to the right. I think it's to the right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

Pretty sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah. Well, I've never been there. Yeah, it's definitely not to the left. It's to the right. Good job, Laura. Uh just incredible. It sounds like she went there to scope it out for a couple of days over a long weekend or something like that. Just, you know, casually saying, do I like this 15C or not? She did, and she just stayed and then did it in just six sessions. And I don't know how true this is, just looking at like kind of the comments. Sounds like maybe the fastest anyone has ever done a 9B plus before in the world. Man, woman, child. Good job. Uh, I I don't know, just that was definitely the biggest news. Of course, Yanya did recently, and we saw that. But to see Laura just come and crush it stood out as and really cemented her as one of the top sport climbers in the world. I mean, we knew this. She comes up a lot on good temps, but this really was a nice little cherry on top to the last couple of seasons. So yeah, uh congrats to her. Anything uh you guys want to say about that?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Yeah, I mean, I I I I just think it's so cool because I think it's so rare that there's like a female athlete in any sport, let alone climbing, that does something that's groundbreaking for anybody. Like there's there's a lot of accomplishments that are still incredible that are the first female ascent of something or the first woman to do XYZ in any sport, but to be able to even have the conversation of like she she was able to send this grade faster than anybody ever has. Like those moments are so rare in sport, and so I think that just is super cool, and I think is a moment that should be really respected from her. I also think it's it's interesting just because she's just done so much hard climbing on a rope outside beyond what she's done in in comps. And I I think it is a testament to how it's just a different, it's just a slightly different game when you have so much experience on a rope outside projecting hard. Like it's it you can be as strong as you want, but if you don't have that experience, it it can be a lot harder. And so I think to me, it looked like it just was a testament to the amount of hours she's logged trying to climb as hard as she can on a rope, um, and it all sort of coming together in this moment that she was able to take advantage of. So I think just all factors surrounding it were really, really incredible.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

Yeah, I think I think Allison says it kind of perfectly there. I obviously I was blown away. I think Allison had a similar experience too, uh, at least when we were chatting in the group chat, was like I originally read it as um biography, and I still was like, damn, that's fast. Like, that's really impressive. And then I quickly saw that it was it was a biblio, and I was like, holy shit, that's crazy. So like it was just kind of funny because even you know, even with uh like a 15A, I was like, that's really impressive to like climb it that quickly, like like super impressive. Um but then to to have it be, you know, obviously the harder, um, the harder one is uh is just crazy. I think it's crazy. I think the full context of that achievement will continue to become like more and more aware of uh uh uh to the community over time. But you know, seeing people like how much time Sean Bailey put into it, how much time Mago's put into it, how much time pretty much every one of the strong climbers that have done it have put into it, you know, Yanya as well put a significant amount of effort into doing that, like a lot of trips. And for Laura, it seemed like it fit her really well, but regardless, like to be able to show up and just get it done in a trip like that, um, a s a not a long trip is it's really hard to do with like maintaining skin, energy, motivation, you know, not falling down that that slope of like of getting yourself into a hole, basically. Um and it's very cool. And and like Alison was saying, it's it's a testament to the work that she's put in as an outdoor sport climber. Like I feel like you don't do those things that quickly without building like a and and you know, maybe someone will prove us wrong someday, but it's uh it's shown the work that she's put in, you know. She's she's climbed a lot of very, very hard roots very fast, especially in the last year or two. And uh yeah, it's cool to see kind of uh the cumulative achievement essentially for all of that.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

I feel like what was funny too was that she uh one other reason why I thought it was biography was because the post was so casual. Like it was like, oh I went here for a trip and I was like checking out Biblio and then I like and then I did it. And you were like, wait, what? Like it just had no like exclamation points, and like people usually do the like mind blown emoji or like whatever all these things. And her her post was just so like I did this route. It's crazy. I couldn't.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

Well, I mean, in you know, it's six tries, she didn't go down like an epic projecting hole. Like that's it's like a six tries, I feel like is like the the line where like you start to go over that and then it starts to feel like something like significant. But I feel like six tries is like still in the threshold of like casual-ish efforts, you know, like probably very obviously very serious efforts, but I've definitely tried things six times like on a casual basis of just being like, let's see if I can just keep trying to get up it, you know. Um and then when it goes beyond that, that's where I like dig in a bit more.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yeah. I mean to me, that's kind of like a that's like my favorite sweet spot of project. Like it like doesn't get deep enough where you're like, it feels like it's becoming a prison, but also it's like you had to work for it. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yeah, I think she said six sessions just to make sure that we're not overstating it, which is unbelievably short. Yeah, tries, but uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:17

Um regardless, that's not a lot of sessions. Like, I mean that it it's kind of it's kind of similar with the roots at least.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

So or likely tries. Like you can't do that many, like in saves, you can't do that many tries in a day.

SPEAKER_04 29:28

Yeah, probably maybe a couple tries per day at the most, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Yeah, Carlo, can you provide some context since I don't even know which side of uh biography it's on, just about like how long the line is, kind of like how steep or not steep this. I mean, I don't think you've tried it, but you must have, you know, seen it or you know that wall.

SPEAKER_04 29:45

Yeah, yeah. I've seen the route. I looked at it, I like wrapped down kind of over it one day um while we were there because I was setting up fixed lines for like shooting photos and videos. I kind of saw it as a project, but it hadn't been looked at or chalked in years, you know, so it was like it was really just kind of like, oh, beautiful piece of rock. I have no idea what this is. But yeah, I mean most of the roots on that section of the wall are like fairly similar, like similar to biography, like you know, 100 to 120 feet in length-ish, you know. Um like a full kind of full 60, 70 meter rope length, you know, to lower to the ground off that. So they're not like crazy, crazy long roots. Um and it starts off, you know, a little bit steeper at the bottom and then it it kind of rounds up and around. Like, I mean, you guys have all seen photos of the wall. It tends to that section is like a bulging piece of the wall. So the higher you get, the more it gets slabbier. And you know, if it's similar to like biography, like the upper sections aren't that hard, but uh but when it gets slabbier, it's kind of slippery. And like it's uh even though it's not super physical climbing, it's like you feel like you could still fall, although you're still not like feeling like you're getting super pumped up there. So the bulk of it tends to be like the start into like the midsection and whatnot. And I think that's similar with bibliography, although I do think the crux may be a little bit higher. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Forgive me if I told this uh or had this little anecdote when Yanya did it, but I was talking to Ethan Pringle who bolted it, and he told me that it didn't need like any cleaning. And he thought that was really cool. Uh typical of Sayuse, yeah. That's uh I mean that's just that shows how good Sayus is. And also that the crux was just nails thin. Maybe he didn't have the best beta because I don't know, yeah. I I don't know if he really sieged it because he put the bolts in, but the the anecdote I remember that stood out to me is that he said that he would rather do the swarm again rather than the crux of that, which I know Ethan really struggled with the the swarm in that particular crux move on there, but still kind of gives an indication that it's thin and hard. Uh yeah. Carlo, is the you know how like a lot of sport crags when the bottom is super steep, that like the rock quality is really bad down there? Is it like that Seus where it's kind of chossy right off the ground, but then it you know cleans up up high?

SPEAKER_04 32:00

There's there's no choss on that. Well, I'm sure there's choss on that cliff somewhere, but there's very little choss, at least on that section of wall. But the character of the rock changes throughout sections of it. So like you see the blue chunks of rock, that's gonna be a different feel and a different type of rock than like you'll move into like kind of the orange streaks, and that that rock tends to be a little bit like sharper but slippery, like almost like uh not crystal y, because it's it's not it's limestone, and there's not really like a crystal component to it, but it tends to be a little bit harder and uh and a little bit less texture to it, or the texture is different, and then slightly like sharper angle changes and stuff. And then the blue rock tends to be a little bit more like slopy kind of pocket. Some of the pockets can have like a little bit of a biter edge to it, but there's like dishes and things. The blue rock like holds humidity a little bit more, and I think I've talked about this on the pod before, but like the blue rock, if it's a humid out, it tends to get damper and and it like almost can get kind of stickier in that way when it's like a slightly damp, the blue rock, but then the orange rock, and it's kind of like white orange, that stuff doesn't really hold the humidity, and so when your hands are wet on that, it sticks really poorly because you need like dry skin to kind of bite into it. So like I found the difficulty of that cliff to be if you transitioned from like the white gold rock into the blue rock, your skin would kind of react differently to it. And I found that I noticed changes in that way. But overall, there's not much choss on that cliff. Like it's there may be sections of the cliff like throughout the whole length of it that you'll find some chossier areas. I didn't experience any of that. Like I was only on like the more traveled sections, and it's very good rock. And even the bottom sections of it, yeah, the character of the rock is a little bit different, but it's not chossy by any means.

Support From Patreon

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who helped make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else, and those episodes are ad-free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay, back to the pod. Bring this back to Laura and just emphasize again what you said, Allison, that it was literally an accomplishment that spanned gender and just congrats to her. I also wanted to call out the kind of uh graph that Will sent in the chat that basically just showed, like, yes, this was an incredible ascent. Bibliography, really, really amazing. But her just general tick list over the last couple of years is one of the best in the world, again, regardless of gender. I I looked it up, she's done 54 9a's and up. 54 9a's up and three 8C plus on sites. And someone was talking to me about this. Like, how many people have multiple 8C plus on sites? I I didn't do the work to find out, but not a lot. And those names that you're gonna I mean, even those names of who's done bibliography, like you were like, Oh, Sean Bailey, Alex Magos. You know, like these are these are the best our sport has ever seen, period. Yeah, again, this is a cherry on top, and then the foundation underneath it, mind blowing. Like just that tick list, yeah, unmatched, unmatched.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Yeah, I mean, I think it to me it feels like it's it was pretty, you know. Obviously, I think when something blows up on Instagram, it feels really out of nowhere. But I also think to me, it feels like if anybody was gonna do something like that on that route specifically, like in my head, she would have been a contender just because she's been doing some pretty mind-blowing things for a long time. And a lot of the things she's been doing for a long time have been uh associated with speed, like doing things quickly or a couple tries or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Uh got Austin Hoyt just jumped on, went to his full class. Uh Austin, oh dude, you have a real microphone, too.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

Yeah, you like that? I'm brought it. I actually turned around and was late to class so I could grab it.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

It kind of sounds weird. You're a little clipping out, um, but uh we were just uh giving Laura Ragora her flowers for absolutely crushing bibliography, and we also were pointing out that she has just done so much uh leading up to that. This was not just a one-off that she's just been crushing nonstop. I also wanted to point out that she's only 25 years old. And and yeah, and Alison, you pointed out like she she's also like winning tons of comps. Like I forgot about that. I I did not put that in my notes. Like, oh yeah, she does that too. Uh I hate to say this, but I can't help but you know, think about the future. Uh, I should just dwell on how amazing what she just did is, but I can't help but think like what's next for her. Like, is she gonna set her sights on Cafe Columbia or something? That just seems like a style that might suit her. It's not that far away from her. Like, you know, now we've seen three women do 15C. You know, I I'm just kind of curious what's going through her mind because although I know how much I love doing another grade, sending something that's probably been on a lifetime tick list. I don't think I'm alone where like you do it and you go, oh wait, what else is possible? Like if I can do that, who knows what I can do next? Uh so I don't know. I I don't want to take away from her current accomplishment, but uh I just am wondering if she's got her eyes out of anything else.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

She does seem pretty psyched on putting up new routes too. She just I think she just FA'd a 9A like you yesterday. Um so I think that could be on her horizons too, trying to do whatever the next hard thing is more local to her or whatever. Like I do think she's got pretty limitless options. Uh I think sort of whatever she decides to do next, it seems like she's just gonna get done.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

So yeah, Austin, what would you think of her sending uh and just yeah, giving you a chance to join us after after school now?

SPEAKER_03 38:05

No, I mean uh I mean I'm not I'm a boulder like through and through, but so seeing anyone do a hard rope climb is extremely impressive. But when I saw that little uh stat or Will sent like a little graph into the group chat we were in, like comparing all the just like the amount of hard rope rope climbs everyone has done, and it that was what was like inc crazy to me.

SPEAKER_04 38:27

I do want to point out that that graph is wrong. It's like it's not right. What was wrong with the graph? No, no, the graph does a great job depicting where she's at compared to the rest of the field, but the numbers on there, like I look through the numbers of some stuff and it's it's not correct.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

Classic Reddit.

SPEAKER_04 38:45

Wait, Reddit wasn't correct, Reddit had something crazy. The graph is not accurate, but that being said, I think the point of the graph is showing that where she's at compared to everyone else. And that part of it is is for sure true, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Her bar was big, their bars were were small.

SPEAKER_04 39:02

That's the only part that we need to know. But the rest of the graph, I was like, some of this stuff is not right. This is not right. And there's definitely stuff missing.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

So uh also thought it was really cool that she just was sticking around and like after she does bibliography 9b plus, just you know, the next day she just does some more another 9A, like flashes like another 8B, does a couple, you know, does like another 8C, just like casual.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

I feel like that is actually extremely impressive because I feel like the second I send something hard, I'm in vacation mode like for the next two months or something.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

But she didn't project because she didn't project.

SPEAKER_04 39:39

She was in vacation mode. Her vacation mode is just better than the rest of us. Shit.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Yeah. I gotta catch up. That was her cooldown. What's that like SNL line? Like um, I'm just like everyone else. I go on vacation too, but when I go on vacation, I do 9B plus or something like that. That cowbell skit. Um, yeah, good job, Laura. Made me think that, yeah, Yanya's send-on biblio still really amazing, and it looks like it's the headline for Real Rock 20, which just got announced. And I feel like it might have taken a little bit of the wind out of the sails on that. Still, still psyched to see it. Um, I hope this like irks Yanya, and she like gets out her like competition side and she's like, Oh, really? Like, you think that one was hard? Like, I'll show you like a really hard climb. Uh, and just that friendly uh urging to push everyone to their best. But

Reel Rock 20

SPEAKER_01 40:33

uh yeah, what'd you guys think of that Real Rock 20 lineup? Uh, did that even hit your radar or is that just me? Because I always love real rock. I always psych to see it.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

I was just gonna say, like, for me, I feel like what Laura did is amazing for its own reasons, but I also just to me, it takes nothing away from what Yanya did. Like that was her first experience, really trying to project something hard. She's not really done any outdoor climbing at all compared to Laura. I mean, she has done some, obviously, but like we were talking about Laura's tick list is one of the most insane of all time. I mean, y'all have talked about that on this podcast too. Like, grades are not singular and not like the only thing. So Yanya's experience on bibliography was completely different from what Laura's is, and it was like almost more of a full circle emotional experience for Yanya because it was her first time trying to try something that she couldn't just do, and which she's never done in her life, because she has talked about in her post that she doesn't like failing, and she doesn't like having to go back to the same boulder over and over again. And so, like, yeah, to me, I I mean, I don't I don't think what Laura does like takes anything away from how incredible it was that Yanya was able to do that, and it's still a hard grade. And so I feel like I personally am super excited to see Yanya's film too. And I I don't think Laura's send has anything to do with that.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

For me, I was just trying to manufacture some kind of controversy there. Gosh, love the beast.

SPEAKER_04 42:00

The point of the Real Rock films is to like highlight stories of these athletes, not just a single send a lot of the time. You know, maybe there's a story that comes out of a single send, but it's really the story component of it that is the most like intriguing. And and I think I think if we're talking about the Real Rock tour, like it's cool that they're prioritizing like these stories of female athletes that are pushing the boundaries, because you know, with Michaela being in there and and Yanya, and um, I think you know, those are great stories that need to be told. And I think it's cool that they're they're you know willing to to tell them, you know, to the to the wider audience. So obviously both great athletes and all of the athletes that are you know in that that tour tend to be you know the upper level of of athletes out there. So um I think always always excited to see what's there.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

So Yeah, I and I was gonna say I would love to see uh real rock next season on Laura, but I do think it would be a completely different story, a completely different vibe, a completely different narrative. Um and I don't think either of them would take anything away from the other in terms of telling a story that people want to listen to.

SPEAKER_04 43:05

Yeah, I think I think just over the years, like uh we have so much good climbing media that's just getting pushed out there for free nowadays, like through YouTube and stuff, that it just doesn't feel like test piece, exactly. Uh it it just there's a lot of media, you know, and and you know, like with mellow kind of coming to prominence uh and and you know the brands just kind of pushing out their own stories, putting more money and and time into like bigger pieces that just get released for free. That I'm you know, it's like Real Rock's great. I think it's cool that they, you know, highlight these athletes, they do the tour, they do all the stuff, and I I do think that they generally tell really good stories and and um do cool things with it. But it it used to feel like it was like the only time we got something, you know, out of the climbing media world. And I feel like nowadays it's like they're awesome, but it it's it's a small piece of the of the full media picture that we are you know are. are given on a on a weekly basis essentially nowadays, which is cool. I love to see that the climbing industry has developed to that point where there's like super interesting films coming out. I wish I had more time to watch them, but um there's there's just a lot of interesting content coming out like regularly.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

So yeah, Austin, I'm I'm curious what the real rock tour like holds for your generation of you know for us like it was a yeah it was a big deal. I watched Dosage two, three, like like 80 times. I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

Those weren't even real rock tour.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Yeah, those weren't even real rock tour. Weren't they on the real rock?

SPEAKER_04 44:35

Weren't they like that was years before the tour, dude. Yeah. But they did the tour. They came to my college. No, no, I know, but that was like not a real rock tour. Like they didn't have real rock tour until like years after those came out.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Oh god, it's embarrassing. I bet I mean they kind of hold the same purpose. Cool. At least I know for a fact between like me, Adam, Noah and the Wheelers, like all of us grew up watching the real rocks. Like we went to the premieres with our parents and stuff, you know, and I think it was kind of like the the top tier climbing media in our in our minds. We were like, oh that's how you make it. You you get into real rock, you know? And I think most of us still feel that way, even if it's not necessarily like the only way to make it quote unquote nowadays. I think it's still it feels like a big deal. If if if you were like asked to be in a real rock, I feel like it would be it'd be an honor to to me and to my friends, I know for sure.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

So yeah, it's important. Well I'm sure someday you'll make it into wheel rock uh which is you know the new top tier unfortunately unfortunately uh yeah wanted to shout out uh Michaela Kirsch for being the first woman in the world to do 515 and v15 uh do you guys know which 515 they're talking about because I know she's done multiple I wasn't sure if it was like that they started the process when she did like was it La Rambla? I can't remember but she's done multiple ones.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

I don't remember specifically I was under the impression it has a lot of climbing in it so it maybe has multiple um yeah I think they covered a lot of things in the film for sure.

SPEAKER_04 46:12

I think they they traveled to a few places.

SPEAKER_03 46:14

I I feel like it was La Rambla though but I wouldn't feel confident in that answer.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

I'm still so impressed with that one the Victima La Perez I can't remember exactly what it's called but it's on that wall where Perfecto Mundo is and I've I think I've told you guys before just that's a wild wall like you that is no joke to get to the top on anything. I don't think there's many climbs there that yeah like you gotta be climbing well into 514 just to get to the top of anything let alone 15A there uh which yeah and then dream time not the good one yeah just psych for her she put up like a really cool 9A in Vermont too like over the water I think if it I mean I don't I haven't seen in person but the photos I've seen look incredible.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

So I'm excited to see that too.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Yeah I hope that's in it for sure.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

Yeah I actually kind of wanted to see that Cafe Columbia uh show up in Real Rock. I was a little disappointed not to see that. I mean I don't know how all those behind the scenes work and who they end up working with but it sounds like he had a good story too. He's I mean he's been crushing for a long time and then he put a lot of work into that and it probably is one of the hardest the world has ever seen but well I'm curious do you think like uh do you think people are because it's kind of the same story as a lot of other stories, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:27

Do you think people are like do I want to see that again? To me it's cool every time but I wonder if to other people like they kind of get bored of it.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

I'll let one of you guys answer I I'm I was just gonna say I wonder if the it'll start to change like where stories like that are a particular genre go. Like I think I I was able to host the Mello show this year that had I mean all it was other than the Alaska film with Sean and Nathaniel it was all groundbreaking essentially that one was incredible though that one was great. I mean don't get me wrong it was amazing but I just mean like if they're making a film that Austin say maybe would have the same story as like this is this groundbreaking thing like maybe that footage ends up being more suited to mellow and real rock is telling other stories. Like I don't know but personally I could see that happening like it's starting to shift that if you know there's so many avenues of climbing now that are you know from mountaineering and alpinism to sport climbing to trag climbing to first ascents to more narrative emotional backstory pieces all these different things like I I could see there being enough audience to have multiple tours that suit multiple interests and things just sort of slot into places that are a little bit more logical I guess.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Good sign for climbing that we've come to a place where you can kind of have that those different avenues that people love and I think Mellotur number two is going to come around. I I don't know if it's public I'll I'll check but yeah I don't think they're stopping that I think they got a good response and yeah they tell a different kind of story and

Seb Bouin's Controversial New FA

SPEAKER_01 49:04

so that is cool. Okay guys last media that just felt like I had to touch on because it was kind of blowing up in our in our group thread was Seb Bon did a FA of some new why are you laughing? I thought I pronounced that really well no I'm laughing at the subject um Seb did an FA of a new 9A which he seems to do like every weekend uh at some crag called Saint a bomb I'm probably mispronouncing that too good job Seb saw a file swinging from his harness didn't get a lot of comments but it definitely stood out uh I just want to preface this by saying Seb one of my favorite climbers in the world I don't know I just the lines he chooses the super long amazing limestone how he climbs them his yelling I just I think he's just one of a kind and amazing I also haven't done a ton of uh route developing so I don't know everything that goes in it but it was surprising to me to see him well like carrying gear like uh a file in general when he's climbing 9A like it's just so easy for him he doesn't even need to like take off you know the tools uh but also was just kind of like wished he had addressed that tool and how he used it or didn't use it or wherever the case may be to to help people understand what goes into route developing and maybe what's appropriate and what's not but yeah did you guys uh Austin were you the one that shared that post in our in our group I feel like you spied the file first.

SPEAKER_03 50:35

I can neither confirm nor deny if it was me.

SPEAKER_04 50:39

Yeah I mean I don't want to spec I don't want to speculate as to what it was like for sure. I mean I saw the the yeah I saw the video or whatever but uh yeah I mean I I think it's no secret that there are tools in the development process that get used. Um I don't know what tool he had on him. I'm not familiar with whatever he had on there. Yeah it looked like it was a tool for development stuff and uh I think the only thing I say is like it depends on the area depends on what the local ethics are it depends on a lot of things about what tools are kind of allowed to be used. I I always say that if you just imagine that someone walks up to a piece of rock and just climbs it and puts some chalk on it, it's almost always not the case. There's usually some amount of preparation that goes into it. And different areas have different ethics about what uh what's allowed to be used. So I don't know where he was at. I don't know what the ethics are. It's hard to say. But yeah I think it is worth people having a little bit more discussions about that and why certain tools are used in certain ways and happy to delve into that in regards to my own local areas and stuff but I think it'd be pretty hard for me to speculate on what we see overseas. So which is vastly different. I mean there's there's areas in in France that are like like bukes and stuff that are entirely drilled pockets on roots and stuff. And I don't think they're still doing things like that. I don't know but those are you know historically the things have been done to that in that nature.

SPEAKER_03 52:04

So I think it's important to know like that developing is incredibly nuanced obviously like Carla was saying that but I think the fact that he posted the video and like like obviously he he knew he was wearing it. He knew what he was doing which to me means that he was doing nothing bad. Like I I think I agree I think people should talk about it more about what developing is and I've always I've actually I've talked with Taylor McNeil about doing like a video showing what developing is but at the same time you're kind of setting yourself up for failure in a way because no one will agree. There's always there's no right answer and there's always a wrong answer.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

Okay two questions and one of these I I really want to aim at you Carlo because something came to mind where I I like that you're pointing out that development is location specific. But uh if you understood the rock and that area you would know that that's like a dangerous thing to leave something like that. You talked about a place like the Bukes or these places that historically have tons of drilling I guess the question there is even if a place has a past and it's okay to do a certain thing, like when do we switch over or is it appropriate to ever switch over and say actually in this day and age and with where we see climate going, it's not okay even if it historically was and not necessarily then like say everyone before us was terrible and they were bad, just like things change. Things evolve I don't know if uh just because it used to be okay that we should say that it will always be okay have that ethic.

SPEAKER_04 53:49

Yeah no absolutely not I don't I don't say that like just because that ethic was historically like okay means that it's continues to be that way. I think all of those and my hope is that all these communities continue to like strive for you know an increasingly strict ethics when it comes to like those types of standards. But there is a point where the ethics could probably get too strict where they just completely eliminate the ability to develop at all. And so there's always like it's a gray area and you're navigating in a gray area. And I think especially when you're early to climbing and haven't experienced enough you're not going to be able to navigate that gray area as as responsibly as someone who's seen more because like I can look at that gray area and know when to ask certain questions. I know when you're stepping into the black and when you're you know a little bit more on the white side of that, you know, and it just gets a little bit easier. I think if you're a younger climber or someone who wants to develop that hasn't done much in the past and hasn't experienced a lot, then your best chance of success in making sure you don't create a situation that's not good for you or the community is to like find somebody who knows a lot more than you that can kind of mentor you on like the local process and you know how to go about those things. Because I think that's the only way that you're going to get those answers. And I think a lot of people have have shied away from any sort of a development like class or like education system around it that's like public because it's so location specific that like something that you would teach somebody for one area may be completely wrong for another area just based off of the local ethics. I mean there's areas that don't allow chalk and any bolts and anything you know and that's a massive difference from areas that like allow significant not manufacturing but like heavy cleaning or gluing you know like if you took that same ethic to like one of our granite cliffs in California like people would be pissed. Like people would not be happy about it. Whereas if like you're on some of like the chaucier limestone walls in America, that's kind of the only way that some of those caves get climbed. They're so chossy that they have to kind of be glued together in order to be safe to climb in essentially and it's like would you rather just have a blank cave next to the road or would you rather kind of like do some heavy cleaning and some gluing and there might be a a slight bit of I guess adjustments to certain holds and whatnot to make them usable is the best way to put it and then you've got a an amazing climb or something that climbs at least really, really well. I hesitate to say amazing because I feel like in my opinion anything that requires that amount of work or cleaning and effort is never can quite hit the amazing you know like tier. But that's just my personal opinion.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

Alison you mentioned that you haven't done a ton of development so you didn't want to you know judge anything too harshly or concretely but what did you think about when you saw the file or whatever tool it was and as someone that also hasn't done a ton of developing or cleaning yeah there's these things I wonder like if you take a file and you kind of comfortize a a pocket that was like literally maybe dangerously sharp or could cut a rope like where do you feel like the line should be drawn as someone who is more focused on the climbing and less on the developing at this point in your career?

SPEAKER_00 57:14

Man I mean I just feel like that's such an impossible question for me to answer. Like I I I think you don't really know like what goes into developing I mean roots especially I know way less about boulders I've been to boulders as other people have been cleaning them and prepping them to get a first ascent so I like have a way better idea of what goes into opening a project for bouldering. I think just all of these questions are like Carlos said just so hard to answer because it it just depends on the area. And yeah I mean I think I said in the first pod I did like just so much of climbing both in terms of actually climbing but also developing both roots and boulders is like just dependent on mentorship. So like developing boulders is something that I'm interested in doing more. And so in me doing that I've been reaching out to people who have been developing boulders in Joes for decades and asking them like what are best practices? Will you come with me? Like how are how am I gonna like learn how to be able to do these things that have been done for my entire climbing career that I've never done before. And yeah I mean I think I think to me it's just important to make sure you're doing your checks and balances and asking the people that you are super confident will know what the best practice ethics are and asking if you don't know. Like I think that on most ethical things around climbing I think people fall back on the like oh well I didn't know. Um and I think that's usually solved by asking the people that do know um and doing your due diligence and making sure that you're asking the right people and getting the most accurate responses to that. Because I I mean I do think Austin said it but I I do think there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that is not talked about and if yeah if that's especially true because it's just not there's not like an easy answer.

SPEAKER_03 59:08

So I think Allison hit the nail on the head I mean you get out there and people tell you when you're doing something wrong and and no one tells you when you're doing something right, you know so the easiest way is just like she said go with someone that knows. So you don't do something wrong. I'm I think I'm sure when I started I'm sure I did stuff wrong but luckily it wasn't too wrong and I connected with people in the Northeast and luckily it all managed to work out and and I learned I still learn from Bryce. I mean I develop boulders pretty often but I probably learn like a new trick or tip every time I go out with Bryce he shows me how to do something new you know and it's useful.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Yeah shout out Bryce Viola just putting up bangers all the time. I th I think for me a a big deal we talk about prepping a root but also a boulder but especially a root is is safety. Like I just if something is dangerous to me like whatever you need to do to to rectify that is important. You know sometimes that means prying off giant blocks sometimes that means gluing to me safety safety. It's funny you know Carlo you've often given me not not crap, but you know I love European limestone climbing and you know uh oftentimes I'm probably climbing on stuff that has been comfortized manufactured and I don't think I necessarily realized it. I just that wasn't like I'm not out there like trying to find out if something is changed. I'm just you know clipping bolts and drinking Aperol spritzes and having fun. And now I'm like wait maybe like all these have been made and and that's why they're so fun for me and maybe my love is of that and then that makes me like wonder you know yeah what that says about my ethics or what I really want out there. So yeah just love good European root setting. Yes dude yes I do I do um but anyways this was not yeah this whole thing was not to like throw Seb under the bus. I think what you said Austin where he put it on his harness so my hunch is is that whatever he was doing he felt confident uh about because he wouldn't have displayed that if he was somehow like trying to sneak around and hide it and he's got a pedigree and a tickless and a development thing that is kind of second to none. But I do like hearing more from people experienced like you guys uh about the behind the scenes and I think it helps other people hear what to do even if one of those big things is just raise your hand and ask a question uh and you know don't just go out there willy-nilly and and learn that the hard way so uh for sure and I I just I guess just to say I think it's important to say that Seb is probably one of the most experienced as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:53

So I would trust him before I trust myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:57

Seb, come on the pod. Okay, you guys that almost sounded like an ethics segment but it it wasn't it was just uh some media that maybe we learned the lesson from got to discuss. Uh

Ethics Segment: Should You Watch Strangers Climb?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

someone asked us about some of our thoughts on watching professionals climb outdoors. How do I phrase this? I I think that it came up on a careless talk episode they pointed me towards um and I didn't get a chance to listen to it but I think it was a discussion around what it's like to be a pro climber and having a massive group of people watching you. And you know the the truth is is that in our sport especially outdoors but I guess actually indoors too anyone's welcome you you know you don't get to do it in in privacy necessarily and uh you know all of you guys are are pro athletes and you just wanted to understand the dynamic of what it's like to climb when there's maybe 10 people watching you on your project and what's the right way to behave as a professional climber in that situation as well as what should spectators do if they find themselves in that position because I don't think we're heading towards this happening less. I I'd say we're gonna head towards this happening more.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:16

For sure I think I mean I go to Bishop every year and I feel like bishop is the place for that to be and to me personally I actually I actually don't have like any problem with people watching and if people want to watch they're more than welcome to I think I appreciate it when if people want to watch they can like chat with me you know and and just like be friendly. That's it really I mean it would feel weird if people were watching and just sitting there silently it would that would feel more weird to me than like being friendly. I mean I feel like making friends is like the fun part of climbing. And I like to interact with people that are just as psyched as me. So for me it's easy. I don't mind you watching and as personally and as long as you're like chatting and not sitting there silently and I I think if you're sitting there silently it feels like you're judging me more so than like I guess watching and like hanging out. And climbing is to me is just one big session. And that's always more fun to hang out. It's like more fun to have a session with your friends, you know not with people you don't know. So as long as I get to know people it's it's fun for me. That was a long answer, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:21

That was perfect. What about you Allison?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

Um yeah I mean I feel like that's an interesting question and I don't I don't necessarily feel like that's singular to like professional climbers necessarily like I feel like I can think of many times where I've been resting on my project and gone and like watched somebody climb something else on the next boulder over to like take a break from sitting in front of whatever I'm trying and interact in the same way. Hang out chat ask what's going on ask how the boulders feel like I feel like sort of as Austin said being friendly. But yeah I feel like it is just part of the sport I I feel like I'm somebody who feels like I maybe perform slightly better when I'm by myself and can just be like in my own little world but that's just like you said like that's just an external factor that you don't always get to have control over. Like sometimes you just go to a boulder and there's other people there. So yeah I mean I think I think for me that's not that doesn't feel like a exist because I'm a professional climber. Like that that sort of is just how it works. Like you know if you're resting and somebody else is climbing you're gonna be watching them because like I'm just what I'm supposed to look the other way and like have put my back to them or something. So I feel like I do the same thing to other people like because we're all in the same space.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

So yeah I I feel like uh do you hear Will saying like it's just common sense uh right now can you hear him yelling at you while driving just like it's just common sense how you behave of course I feel like it's not common sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

I feel like like Austin said the thing that you shouldn't do is just stand there and say nothing and like not interact. Like that that is awkward for sure with people like Walk up and don't say hi. Um and or like it's sometimes awkward when people pretend like they don't know who you are when they are, and then it's been like two hours and they're like, Oh, you you I know who you are, and they like sort of reveal that. Um, I feel like sometimes that's awkward. But yeah, I mean if everybody's friendly and hang out and chatting and just sort of trying to interact and ask about the boulder and ask how their day is going. And yeah, I mean, I I I think that happens to me both as a spectator and as a climber on a fairly regular basis. But if you need more clarification and that sounds like common sense, you just feel free to ask another specific question in the Patreon and I'll answer.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:39

What about you, Carlo? How do you deal with this? I mean, yeah, it's it's similar to what they were saying. You know, it's a shared space. Like as a pro climber, I've never felt more entitled to that space because I'm a pro climber or my project's more important or whatever. It just isn't the case. And so it I think as with any shared space, it comes with shared respect. And you gotta be respectful as a pro climber in that space, and they've got to be respectful as a spectator and observer or just somebody else in that space with you. And I think if everyone just tries to be respectful in those ways, there shouldn't really be any issues. But yeah, if you're in a popular area and your project is in the middle of a popular area like the buttermilks or you know, elsewhere, like comes with the territory. Like that's where it's at. And there's gonna be people and they're probably gonna watch. And there's nothing wrong with that, you know? Um it it just is what it is. So obviously, if someone's doing something disrespectful, like they're coming up and like greasing up your holds or trying to get on it with tennis shoes with like dirt all over it, or like walking all over your pads with dirty feet, like those are disrespectful things, whether you're a pro climber or not. Like doing that to anybody at any area is not respectful. Um, but I think particularly from like the pro-climber perspective, in terms of just observers, like, yeah, I've had that happen a lot. I've had people just literally camp out for hours while I projected something. And sometimes they say hi, sometimes they don't. Sometimes I'm in Europe and they don't speak English and they don't even know how to come up to you and talk about it. And you just kind of like let it be what it is. And if I feel like I don't want that and I'm uncomfortable with it, then I leave, you know? And it's like it's pretty simple. So and yeah, sometimes I do feel like I'd rather just climb on my own and so I'll pack up and you know, wave and and come back later or something, you know. Because that's fine. They they can have that space, whatever they want to do with it too, you know, and I just decide how I want to participate. But you certainly can't like kick people out or you know, make people feel I try not to make other people feel uncomfortable in those shared spaces in any way.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:38

So I'm curious if someone comes up to you and they're like, like, I'm an awkward person, I feel like, especially when I was a psych kid, going up to pro climbers was intimidating, right? So like when when do you feel like an obligation as a professional climber to like to break the ice and as because you're kind of like like you're the one they're watching, right? Like, do you do you feel an obligation to break the ice and make it less awkward, or or do you kind of wait for them? Or like what's the vibe there, you know? I'm curious what you how you guys feel.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

I think sometimes you can like get really caught up in the projecting process and like it can feel really intense, and you can have like a certain intensity about you when you're projecting. Um and I'm aware of that, and I don't think that has again anything to do with being a professional climber. I think that just that's how I am. Uh and so for me it's important to be like saying hi and like being friendly, because if you just like walk up and I'm like super frustrated at a pro like my project, it's probably gonna come off as like pretty aggressive, and like that's not because I feel any certain way about other people being there. It's just like I'm pissed that I can't do my boulder. Um so for me, yeah, I'm like aware of that. And so it's less that I feel like pressure to say hi, and more that I know if I don't, it's gonna be like weird. It's the vibe is gonna get weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:54

Valid. I like how Austin you said you were like an awkward kid, but now you just walk up and you're like, hey, I'm Austin Hoyt. Nice to meet you. Yeah, you want a photo? You know who I am.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:04

Uh I want to add on to that a little bit. Like, there have been moments where I have like one of my strengths as a climber is been able to being able to use pressure to my advantage. And that's why I feel like I did better in comps a lot of the time than I should have. Um, but I have used situations outside in the same way where like more people watching adds to the pressure. And I will always try to find first find a way to use that pressure to my advantage. And sometimes that can be used as like a motivating factor, whereas like maybe I've hit like a dead spot in my projecting process and a bunch of people come up, the energy shifts, they're like, oh, he's trying this. You know, you feel that, and people are like expecting you to do something. And some people kind of like don't like that and they fall apart in those moments. And I've had moments where I'm like, I'm not, I don't want this today. Like, I don't, I don't want that like feeling or energy today. And that's usually when I kind of back off and I don't try anymore. But I know in the past that there were moments where I'm like, I'm gonna use this to my advantage. This is what's happening. I'm gonna call it out in my own head about what exists here in terms of the energy shifts and the expectations that are present. And I'm gonna try to use it to my advantage. And I'm gonna take that energy and like apply it to like trying to level myself up within this session beyond what I probably could have done on my own. And I think it's just good to know what it is at that moment, you know, and and if if you're willing to engage with that shift in energy or not. And and if you don't, then don't try instead of like fighting it, you know. And if it's there and you want to use it to your advantage, I think that there's some opportunity to be able to use that to your advantage for sure. And and I I've felt that. I mean, when I did the dark side, I I mostly climbed on it by myself and I had great sessions by myself, nothing wrong. But you know, I was in a projecting hole a bit. I'd spent a lot of time there. And the day that I went there, I kind of came around the corner and there was a few people there, and I was like, shit, like I don't really know if I want to go through this process with a bunch of people. And and instead I just said, you know what? Like maybe I'm just gonna use this to my advantage. Like there, they were trying thriller. There was like a good general energy amongst the crew there, and I kind of warmed up and just got a feel for it. And I was just like, I'm just gonna try to use this positive energy here to my my absolute advantage. And and I feel like it went a long way. Like it just having some additional energy in that situation that was beyond me, like helped a lot. And so I think that there are times when you can use it in the positive. Uh I think that's such a a pro move to that's for sure an Instagram clip.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:40

Yeah, you know, like look at the environment and then and then you know, have it help you versus hurt you. Uh, but I I want to uh emphasize maybe this is just the kind of common sense side of me, and and I'm more on it from a spectator side than the the pro-climber side. And I think what you're saying first, Carlo, is kind of like this idea, like make sure you don't impugn on the pro-climber's experience. Like, don't touch greasy holds, or don't touch your holds with your greasy baloney hands, which could be said for anyone that's climbing. Don't uh stand in the fall zone. I I I had an experience I was climbing in font with Honold, and of course, he is famous. Um, and we were on this boulder, one of the big five, and people were just watching, and that's fine. And he, you know, they were polite, but they were just so drawn to, I feel like they just would stand underneath him. Like you're like, that that's not fun. Uh, I would say maybe don't take pictures without asking. I don't know. That's a thing from my era. I don't know. That's probably a whole different era where uh athletes I feel like now with everyone that has an iPhone. Yeah, it doesn't exist. Okay, never mind. Strike that. Uh I would say uh probably don't spot unless you're asked to, you know, I I I don't know. I've had like bad spots that like hurt me over the years where people think they're helping you and then they like just you know, jolt you or that's a huge one in my opinion.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:03

I tell everybody that I go climbing with, do not attempt to spot me like ever, unless I tell you explicitly where I want to spot. Like I let me roll down the hill. Like, don't don't even try. Like, because generally, like I and I what I always say is like I'm very aware of my surroundings, especially when I'm like doing a move that's a little bit out of you know, like the the normal static range. And I'm usually really aware of where my body's gonna end up. And if you mess with that at all, like you're you're either gonna hurt yourself or you're gonna hurt me in the process. And it's not your responsibility to like save me, essentially. And the only times that I ask for spots are in really specific situations, and I'm very like clear about it. Like, stand here and I need you to make sure my head doesn't hit this. So like keep your hands right here, but don't try to like grab me, don't try to do anything. Because I have had a lot of situations where people jump in and they try to spot or they move a pad and then they move it like they create a gap, and then I hit the gap, and I'm like, oh man, like please just don't touch anything. So I think the spotting, I think it's a really, really fair point.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:08

So I feel like it also is fine to like like if you haven't been around somebody like Carlo who's super aware of their body in space when they're falling, like it can be a super alarming thing to see like Carlo pitching off the top of a boulder and like hitting the pads and then rolling into the dirt. Yeah. But like I feel like it's fine to ask. Like you can be like, hey, do you want me to move the pads or spot? And then just don't be offended when Carlo says no.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:32

Yeah, when we when we when we talk about the communication side of stuff, for sure, asking, there's nothing wrong with that. And it's better to ask rather than to like, you know, just jump in and do something um without asking first.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:44

So on that note, something that bugs me is if people are watching, this kind of can happen on Grandpa Peabody. If you're sitting there and watching and it's tall, like and you're just a spectator, offer your pads. Like you don't have to necessarily put them down, but it's kind of like let's say you are climbing something tall, you have like two pads, and you have like a bunch of people watching and they're like sitting on their pads. It's like, well, maybe you could offer to you know help save my ankles. And I just feel like that's just kind of a nice the the one thing that I'm kind of curious to get your guys' take on is I have this thing that I do where I'm in a crew, someone pulls on, they're trying something, and I kind of have a ethic of like just not talking for a moment. Just give them their five seconds, ten seconds. It really isn't that long. Uh and I I think that's just general respect for the person and their moment. But it's hard for me to think about a situation like Austin U on the process on Grandpa Peabody, everyone's the sun's going down, everyone's drinking, and and like, you know, what's the expectation there? When you get like 30 people, like I don't know if that's like a realistic expectation on my end.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:53

Well, I've had like two totally different experiences in Bishop, one on the process and one on Lucid. And the one on Lucid was like these people who were on evolution first, and I show up after, and I start like just pulling on, right? And I'm giving ground rips, and every time I pull on, they're all watching, but they're all still talking, and it and you know what? And that's just an instance where I came second, it's not my place, and I just packed up and left. I didn't I was bad for me. I knew I didn't like it, so I just left. But on the process, it's a little bit more of like an ordeal. So I communicated with a bunch of people, I was like, hey, can you be here now? And I got a bunch of pads from people, and and it was like more people were there to support me than not. So it felt like I was like, for lack of a better word, the show. So when I pulled on, even though people were all talking, not watching, whatever, the second I pulled on, even in my video, you can see like everyone gets pretty quiet, and it just really depends on, I think, I mean it just depends on so many things. It's hard to say, but I do agree. Overall, I think it is respectful to uh to to just to be respectful of people, and most people I think would agree with that sentiment, like whatever, but you know, it's it's another one, it's just so hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:07

I think there's a there's like a certain number of people around where that just becomes like an unrealistic expectation. Like I think in general that is a really good rule, and I think most of the people I climb around sort of just naturally do that and know to do that. But when I was projecting uh pagan low in Joe's, like there was a couple times where just all of a sudden there'd be like 35 people standing around the boulder, and you can't that's just like not realistic to expect all 30 people to like stop talking when you're pulling on, and so then I did the same thing as often. Like I was like, I've climbed enough today, like I'm just I'm not gonna be able to focus with all these people talking, and so then I'll come back a different day. Like it's it's not a it's not a big deal, but I do think, yeah, there is a there is a certain quantity of people where you're like you can't have yeah, 30 people all paying attention and knowing to stop talking at the same time. And also that gets really weird sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:57

It does 25 people and they all they do that the PGA tour, they like set up a sign like quiet, please. Um, but yeah, I I hear you. I I agree. I it's like I don't have that expectation in the gym. You know, in the gym, I don't expect the gym to go silent when I pull on to like, you know, that'd be weird. That'd be really weird, bro. Okay, guys, I like this uh this bonus question. If you want to hear that QA and other extra behind-the-scenes content from this episode and others, head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad-free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow, please share this episode with someone who would love it. Okay, see you next week.