#199 Elias Iagnemma — The World's Hardest Boulder, Proposing A New Grade, and What Comes After Sending V18?

Elias’s Climbing History

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I'm a really mindset person. I think a lot when I climb and uh it's really hard to put my mind in the correct way. When I did a lot of my hard boulder, I did just because I am too stronger to the boulder. Like when I did bourden, after take the top, I'm fresh. I can do maybe bourden to another jump, or I can do some moves because when I do the boulder, I'm too stronger to the boulder. But when I did Exodia, maybe it's the first time in my life my mind has switched off. I don't remember the feeling, I don't remember the body position. Because maybe my mind has stopped to thinking for do they move perfect or for take the holes perfect or for put the perfect position my body in the moment I have climbed, I don't remember anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Welcome to the Test Piece Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Thanks for coming on, man. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Thank you, man. I'm good. I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Elias, um people may recognize your name because you proposed the world's first 9A. Uh and am I right that I'm your first English-speaking podcast that you're coming on?

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Yeah, it's the first one because I not speak English very well, but I improve in this period to do my best for uh for English.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Well, I gotta tell you, I think your English is great. And I gotta tell you also that people over here in America were just dying to hear from you. Just I mean, you made you made waves with Exodia, and I wanted to start off by asking you what it's like to become famous. Uh you seem to be someone who really enjoys bouldering by yourself. You you seem like you've really kind of stayed local. I haven't seen you in the spotlight a bunch, but now you're the man, Elias. You're the man. What's it like to be to be famous all of a sudden?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

For me, I'm not famous. Uh but yeah, maybe for the people after sending Exodia, yeah, maybe yes, but uh I'm the same people, the same person, not change my life. And uh yeah, it's Exodia for me is an important thing I do in my life, but uh my life is not changed. And uh I stay today here for the podcast with you for uh a explain my life, uh my process on Exodia, my process in every time of my life.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah, so it's funny because being famous means still climbing, but then the evening, maybe instead of watching TV or playing games, you come on podcasts to talk about climbing. That's really the only difference, huh?

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yeah. For me, it's really good because it's a good chance for a speak uh in uh in English and for improving English and for uh speak uh with you for uh share my my person to all world and uh who I am to all people.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Well then let's start there because I remember seeing you do Burden of Dreams, and I thought, wow, who is this guy? He's so strong and his beta was so interesting, but it also made me just wonder where did you come from? Like, you know, Alias, what when did you start climbing? Uh, take me to some of your early years because even though you are now at the top of the grade ladder climbing hard, I know that didn't happen overnight.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Yeah, I started to climb when I was 12 years old. And uh I start with some competition because when I start climbing in the middle of Italy, my priority are the competition. Uh but maybe year after year. Uh year after year, I understand are not my um my way, the competition, because I'm a super anxiety person, and uh for me the important way to climbing well are uh staying in totally relax and in totally comfort mood with my body and with my mind, and the competition are not so good in this way for me. And uh maybe I start to climb in the rock maybe when I was 18 years old. Because when I start to climb, I climb just for two years. Uh but after in uh 2009 I stopped to climb because uh when I live in Abruzzo uh there is a big earthquake, and uh the all gyms in Abruzzo stay closed, and I started to play football uh at this moment for two years. And after when I was uh 15 years old, I restart to climb and uh I never stopped. And uh I do a lot of competition in this part of my life, and I did some Italian Cup, I win the Boulder Italian Cup in uh 218, and after I did I did some um climbing world cup boulder, but are not my my place. And uh in in the middle of competition I go to the to rock for climb all beautiful lines in the uh in the country in the Italy country and in the Switzerland because the the Switzerland are not so far from Italy and I don't remember when I stopped to do the competition, but uh my last Italian cup still maybe six years ago, probably. Yeah, and when I stopped to do the competition I just focused on the rock climbing. Uh but in the first period I'm not focused on um the hard hard boulder because my priority is to clean the boulder, uh stay in the contact with the nature. Because for me, the best for climbing is not the great for sure, and it's not the hard boulder, but the the line and the process to line uh come?

SPEAKER_00 7:39

The process for taking the first ascent.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Yeah, for the process to take the first ascent is the best uh set for me. And uh maybe I spent a lot of time, a lot of year for clean old boulder in the middle of Italy. I clean maybe 100 lines from uh four to NA. And uh in the middle of this clean I I do some trip to Switzerland to Rockland because for me are important to look at new area, new cool line, and uh for me the best place in the world uh for the geometry for the beauty of the rock. For the beautiful rock is Rockland because uh the boaters in Rockland are very very very good. And uh I did four trips uh in Rockland in in the years after years, and uh yeah, for me it's the best place in the world for climbing for sure. Maybe it's really really hard to do one super super hard boulder because the condition uh it's not super super cold, but it's super nice place for climbing. And um yeah, I think uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Uh no, you you did

Projecting Exodia V18 For Four Years

SPEAKER_02 9:10

amazing. But anyway, I'm chuckling because you started out doing competitions and based on the process you went through on Exodia and just your style, it sounds like you like to really take your time to be outside, maybe even to be by yourself sometimes. And competitions are the opposite, it couldn't be any more different than that. And I'm curious who took you outside and how you started cleaning lines and doing first ascents, because typically someone kind of takes you under their wing or or mentors you, you know, uh that's a big step to start developing compared to just going outside for your first couple times.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Yes, in the first period uh of my life, I climbed with some friend, and uh yeah, these friends are older than me. But my friend are going just for climbing, and but when I go to climbing with him, I see some boulder. Oh wow, this this one is really cool. And you know the name or you know the line. No, I don't know, maybe it's a project. And when my friend tried the the boulder, I go to clean the new boulder because for me it's important to have uh a different um mind. Yeah, it's really important uh the repeating the boulder, but for me it's uh really important to do something for the community. I think this is the my motivation for doing my best because when I see a new line or see a new boulder, I clean, but I try to send it. But when I clean some boulder, I don't know uh if are possible or are super hard or super easy. Because in the middle of Italy, a lot of lines are full-covered to the most or uh all dirty, and uh it's impossible to do if it's possible or if it's easy because you can see the holes. It's really hard to make a new boulder because you are like an artist in this moment, and this is a fantastic uh game for me because it's really fun. Uh clean, yeah, it's really hard because it's you spent a lot of a lot of time for clean the boulder, you are tired, your skin is really bad after clean uh the moss and the the other thing. But when you see the boulder totally clean or the line totally clean, it's wow, this is wonderful line, or uh sometimes wow, this is a really shit line, and I I don't I don't like it. Maybe sometimes I I don't try the boulder, but when I clean the line and I wow, this line is really cool, and after I try. Sometimes I do really easy, also sometimes I do really fast, but sometimes, oh, this is super hard, and I go back to training for do this line, and I my life is similar like this. Clean the line, okay. The line is super hard. I go to training for do this line, and this is similar to the process on Exodia. When I climb all boulders in Italy, my wife uh when when we go back at home, uh my wife, uh there is a super hard project uh by Christian Corr in uh in Refugio Barbara, and uh I stop uh to the street to look at the boulder. Oh, it's cool. I just see some holes. Okay, I go back at home. Maybe tomorrow I go to try. In the first moment, the line are it's really cool, but maybe it's not the best king line in the world for sure, but are interesting. And uh the next day I go to try some single move. Okay, it's really, really hard. And I start to try, go to my panel to do some training, go to Exodia, and this is the way for all boulder I've done.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

So that's what I hear from always the best of the best is it's the boulder is the pull that then you you get strong for, you try to train for that boulder versus just getting strong to go find something. I I always hear this from the best that it's uh it's a pull from the boulder itself. And so I want to know on Exodia, did you train specific knee barring or specific holds or you know, uh hold types for that specific climb?

SPEAKER_01 13:51

I don't train a lot in specific because I have uh I haven't a replica because I have the the real one near my home. And what's the best training to try the boulder? No, to try just the boulder. And but for the knee bar rest, yes, I do some uh training uh uh uh at home in the rest day. Um I put uh with the with the bar with the with the knee bar, I stay maybe uh three minutes, four minutes, but I do this training just after the run because it's really important in Exodia. Because if you put your uh head upide down when your body pressure is really low, it's not super hard, but when your body pressure is really higher after the first part, it's really hard to restart uh with a correct uh focus. And I do just some run uh behind my home, and after this run, I go to bar and put the knee bar and stay in this position after a run. Yeah, this one is just one of the specific training I do for Exodia, but I haven't do some specific training.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Uh, that's that's cool, that's really interesting. Uh, and for listeners that may hear another voice, Alessandro is here to help provide some interpretation if if needed. Can you say hi, Alessandro? Hi. Can you also tell everyone about your podcast so they can they can hear you too?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Thank you so much. Yes, uh, I am an Italian journalist, and um uh obviously I am a friend of Elias. We met some uh years ago, I think uh more than 10 years ago. Uh yeah, we are quite old, and we did a lot of competitions together up to the um the world cups, and then nowadays we live uh quite close and we try to it's really hard actually to find him to climb uh outdoor together because he is always you know traveling around the world, but when he is at home, we can climb together. And I have a podcast here in Italy which is called uh uh Fede della Linea. Yeah, you can find it on climbing radio, uh Spotify, and as well on YouTube. And uh I'm just here to help, so I'll be quiet.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Well, thank you for for helping and joining us. It's cool that you know you have uh an old friend nearby, but I I didn't realize that you traveled so much, Elias. I I guess when I heard that you had over 200 sessions on Exodia, I thought he doesn't have time to travel. Uh because I know it took you maybe four years, but that's that's most of the time you get outdoors 200 times.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yeah, but Exodia, you can try Exodia just six months for the year, maybe, yeah, because you can try uh from June to November, and uh because uh it's it's more high, higher, and it's in winter it's really cold, you have there is a lot of snow, and it's impossible to climb because the street is really dangerous, because you have a lot of ice on the street, it's really dangerous. And you can restart to try in the end of May, in the start of April, and in this period of my life I stay focused just on Exonia, and but in the winter season uh I I travel in the world for trying the super cool line. And the last two years ago I go in Finland. Uh, last year I go in Photon Bleu, and but now I have finished my process in uh in Exodia and I'm very uh I have a lot of time for trying some cool line or sort of cool boulder or super hard boulder, but maybe I can do another long process uh like Exodia, because it's for me Exodia it's hard to find because do a line like Exodia is really complex because it's a lot of hard moves to just uh imagine to do the movements, uh just uh found the correct beta, found the correct way. It's I have spent a lot of time for do the correct beta and the some details for take the old like this or like this, or uh the pinch like this, the angle for the elbow or for the position to the double helook if you put a lot of fire or a little bit too low, and it's this is maybe have take a lot of time for the process, and uh maybe I'm convinced for try a lot of beautiful lines in the world, but maybe I can do another long, long process like this. Uh I have tried for now just for uh 12th session uh sod. I fall uh very close to the top. Um yeah, maybe I can do some other session, but if I I can do, I can stay a lot of time for do the boulder because yeah, the line is super amazing, super cool, uh, the shape is really incredible. But for now I I love to climb, just not for one big process or big project, but I love to climb, take my time for for fun.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yeah, it seems like when you're doing something that can take that long, a project that takes hundreds of sessions, it seems like it's right on the edge of what is possible. And so it seems maybe lucky sometimes to find something that is doable, but just barely doable. And it makes me wonder if during your sessions you ever thought to yourself, actually, this is impossible. Like I can't do this, you know, because a hundred sessions in, that's a lot of climbing.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah, yeah. In in the first impression of Exodia, uh, the first part for me, it's super, super tricky for found the correct way, the correct beta, because it's a lot of three-dimensional. And the first time I started to try in for maybe for one year, I tried with the the double uh underkling, and with a different beta, you do a big move to um a small hole to match the sloper, and you you go with a small crimp to the left hand. But maybe two years ago, I changed the beta. For it's not super, super uh different. The heart is the same, but maybe for uh for the body and for the body position it are better, and I skip with the the new beta or the same uh beta who I use at the when I send Exodia. And uh last year I am thinking uh it's possible to do other three moves on Exodia because the first time I try Exodia, uh not seat start, not standard, you stay like uh I don't know in English, uh squat.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

Yeah, we call it a squat.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Are not so good because I'm I'm super fun to try the boulder to the low part possible. But the first impression are really, really complex, knee bar, really, really complex position for take. This hole is not so bad, are good, but when you take this all from the ground, uh Your wrist is really, really completely flexed. It's a lot of possible injuries because it's not a comfort position. But when I found the beta, I realized okay, so this is possible to do the seat start. And these three moves have put my process one year longer. Just for do three moves, are not super super hard three moves, maybe are I don't know, for me are AK three moves, but for all Buddhere is hard for putting the link together.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

It sounds like you've figured out the moves at some point, somewhat early on in the process. You you did all the moves maybe a year in, I think I read or I heard. Not of the this new sit start, maybe, but of the um existing uh line. And over the years and the sessions, did you have any big breakthroughs where you know you really changed something, or was it just little incremental, little tiny better beta each session? Basically, what I'm trying to ask is how many sessions did it take using the same beta?

SPEAKER_01 23:15

I spent maybe one year for uh find the correct, correct beta for uh the first the first part and the second part. In the uh the year before, I found the another beta for the first part, but it's not different for the difficulty for the first part, but it's just like some adjustments for the body, for the using the knee bar well. But session after session on Exodia are crazy because some some sessions I do the moves really easy after two years, but some session, maybe I the first the session before I fall to match the pinch to the final part, and the session before I go back fresh, the perfect skin, the perfect uh shoes, uh, the perfect condition, and are impossible to do the final part with the double heel uh it's are crazy. And uh uh when I stay on Exodia, the double heel look it's a really really low percentual, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Percentage.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah, and uh when I when you start from the ground and do the double helook, it's if you are not super super perfect, you fall. If you stay super strong on the finger or you stay super strong on the body, but it's not important, it's depending on just the full position of your body, full position uh to the minimal details for me. And uh yeah. After this one, maybe I go back the week before and I do super strong uh the the second part, I restart to training from the ground because Exodia stay in in ballet, uh super closed, and um the big problem are the condition. The condition are not so good every day of the year, and because some days have a little bit condensed because the the boulder it's it's not a low boulder because you start it low, but it's you you have maybe one meter and a half uh from the ground, and after you exit two four meters, maybe, yeah. And uh, but the big problem is when it's a little bit hot uh and humid, the boulder condensed a lot because uh you have the moisture from underneath, yeah. I see. And uh when it's too too cold, the rock uh it's um super super um slippery rock because I haven't a lot of friction. Because maybe if I think uh uh a lot of time if exodia are uh to like granite are not super super super hard, but with this rock, with this friction, it's really really hard. And this is the way because I have suggested maybe the the first Nene Plus. I think I have tried a lot of boulders in the world, like uh sol and sol, like uh Alphain, and uh I did Burden, I did the Big Slam, the Big Slam, yes, is my first passion, but compared to the other boulder, I have tried. I have tried like spot of time. Like I have tried Nene Grade and to Exodia, I think Exodia is too harder. But it's just a proposal of the grade, and my process is totally different to to do the first action to just for uh try to do a repetition because uh it's it's really really difficult. Yes, for me the grade started when I I'm just focused to the beta and uh to the to the perfect way. When I found this one, I spent a lot of time. I don't remember how many sessions I've done when I found the perfect uh beta, maybe two hertz.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Wow. Uh conditions, it's frustrating when conditions can be one of the most important parts of a boulder, you know, and that can be really frustrating. It sounds like you put years trying that and having multiple different sessions that were different because of conditions. And I was wondering what you did along that way to kind of try new shoes, try different knee pads, try a fan, you know, like how did you, over those years, when you know that this is the right beta, you're dealing with conditions, what little tricks did you try? You know, like brand new shoes, old shoes, like things like that. Wet chalk, dry chalk, you know?

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah, for Exodia, it's really important to have uh perfect shoes for do the double heel because uh the double hill is really, but the left heel is really precise. And when you use a little bit a lot the shoes to the boulder, it's hard to have a good uh feeling to the heel because when uh the shoes are a little bit uh stressed, it's impossible to take the left heel in a good position. And maybe I have used 20 or 20 or 25 pairs of shoes, but just for the left shoes. Because the I have the the right shoes uh new and the left shoes is not destroyed, are destroyed just for Exodia because it's uh perfect for do another hard booter, but for Exodia it's impossible to use because the heel is not the same grip and not the same form to the heel. Um yeah, and this is really hard to find because the first period, okay, the heel are new, okay. Maybe you uh you don't put in a good position uh, but session after session, I I realize maybe it's the shoes, if not stay in the correct way. And uh after I found this one, I use just one pair for do some warm-up and uh one pair to the left shoes for do the to the boulder for the continuity. Uh yeah, this is uh it's really important uh to find this way. And another thing uh really important uh to Exodia are uh the condition depends uh when it's 12 degrees and a little bit humid, because it's the perfect sticky grip to the holes, and because when are uh 80 degrees it's too hot, but when are 80 degrees or uh 7 degrees it's too dry, and uh I realize this on the knee bar rest. When it's sticky, you stay a little bit without super super pression, but when it's too dry, you can stay 10 seconds. Oh nice, it's really comfortable, but after uh 20 seconds the the knee bar are go down really really fast, and I fall maybe 10 times, 12 times when I stay rested, uh my knee bar are slippery super fast. I go, I don't know, uh you fell up. I fell up, yeah. And yeah, and this is it's really important to find this condition for doing exodium.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

So, how did you figure out these little tiny bits of beta? And then how did you keep track of it? So you just you had a very specific temperature range. You said 12 degrees. Yeah, you didn't say 10 to 15, you said 12 degrees, and then when you talked about the shoes, you wanted them to be broken in a little bit, but not too much, not too new, not too old. And how did you figure this out and keep track of it? Like, do you have a journal?

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Yeah, I have found this particular when sometimes in my life, when I try Exodia, I have a really, really good shape for the boulder, but I don't know why I fall to the finer part, I or I fall to the middle part. Sometimes when I'm tired or a little bit not super in shape, I do my best at them. And sometimes I realize it's not just a body process, but it's full process, mind process, body process, condition process, and material process is really, really important. I have tried a lot of chalk, different chalk, and for trying to do my best way to exodia. Uh adapt my skin just for this old because it's if you go with a super dry skin, it's really impossible. If you have a super sweet skin, it's so impossible. The comfort zone are a little bit humid skin, but a super sticky skin. And this way I found session after session, session after session. I focused just only on the tails of the boulder, on only of the tails for adapt every particular way to the boulder for put my body and my mind in the correct uh position, in the correct way for do the boulder in the best uh way.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Can you tell me more about what the mental state was that you needed to be in to have your best attempts and to ultimately send?

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know because I'm a really anxiety person or uh really I think a lot when I climb and uh it's really hard uh to put my mind in the correct way. When I did a lot of my hard boulder, I did just because I am too stronger to the boulder. You you know, uh like uh when I did burden after take the top, I can do I'm fresh, I can do maybe burden to another jump, like the final move, or I can do some moves because when I do the boulder, I'm too stronger to the boulder. When I did some other art boulder, it's the same way. But when I did Exodia, it it this way I've changed a lot because maybe it's the first time in my life my mind has switched off. I don't remember the feeling, I don't remember the body position, because maybe my mind have stopped to thinking for do they move perfect or for take the holes perfect or for put the perfect position my body, and uh my mind stopped to thinking and uh my mind, okay, body, you you can do the boulder. I stopped to put your depression or for put uh the whole year to the process in your body because it's uh it's really hard to stop to everything. And uh when I send Exodia to the final hold, I see my video maybe 10 times to the hash end. And I realize when I send Exodia when I stay up to the boulder, because normally when I do the exit I do like power, but when I do the exit, I I I climb really really well, really, really precise to all moves. But when I see you are the climber. When I when I see that my video are you because I I'm not super super technical climber, super precise climber.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

I prefer to know about that.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

I prefer power climbing, but when I see my video on Exodia, okay, you have climbed really well. But it's the first time my mind have stopped to thinking, and when I go go up to Exodia, I realize I did the boulder, but in the in the moment I have climbed, I don't record nulla. I didn't remember I didn't remember anything.

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SPEAKER_02 36:08

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Lessons Elias Learned From Exodia

SPEAKER_02 36:40

so funny that some of the most fun, important times in our lives are ones where our brain just switches off. Uh and what have you taken from that experience you had on Exodia to your climbing now? Does it change how you approach your hardest boulders?

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Yeah. Yeah. Uh Exodia for me have given me some times to do my best on the boulder. Uh, like uh normally I try the boulder just for sand, for sand, for sand uh in one session. Maybe sometimes now I go to the project, I touch the holes. Maybe today I haven't a good feeling, or maybe today I haven't a good condition. And uh yeah, I try just some moves, but I'm not focused for the sand. And this is really important. Uh uh when you stay training, one super hard boulder for me in this moment. Uh it's a lot of important uh my skin condition because the skin condition is really important for me, it's 50-50 like body. You you can do the strongest climber in the world, but if you have uh shitty skin, it's impossible to do everything. And sometimes if my skin is not super good, I try other boulder, just climbing for fun. But Exodia has teached me to understand me uh deeply.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

I'm curious if you are able to tap into that non-thinking situation anymore. You know, when you go and you're trying other hard boulders, do you feel like you're able to have attempts where you just don't remember or you just flow, your brain turns off. Are you able to access that more now?

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah, it's really hard to replicate this mental. It's really, really hard. Uh because now in June I go in uh Rockland this year for do the finish line. And I do uh because for me, finish line is not super hard, Bulder, uh, because it's super my style. And but for my mind, uh it's it's are really really hard. And uh because I have why is that? Yeah, because I have scary to fall to the top, and I uh because in winter I go to retry solence and spot of time, and I can't injurious now for uh exit to the finish line. And uh I have spent four sessions for the finish line, but just in the first session I solved the moves really easy, and in the second session I did the cracks, and after the cracks, I did the boulder really easy uh in the warm-up with the classic shoes. But when I did the cracks, I jump off because my mind are totally in panic and uh because I'm so scared to fall and for uh injured. But the day when I send uh finish line, I stay just relaxed to my friend come to find me because in one moment I go in another part to the sector for uh put my mind in the correct way and stay relaxed. And uh I have tried to replicate the same sensation to do exodia because when I did exodia, um I remember uh I stay up to the boulder and look the holes, but when I look the holes, I'm not staying focused to climb the boulder, I stay focused just in one point to the boulder and contradict my energy mental to just one point. I it's hard to explain it. And the same way when I stay to training finish line, I sit sit down to the rock and just focus it just in one point, and after maybe 10 minutes, I go back to the boulder and uh I did one attempt and I send the boulder. It's crazy because when I go up, I don't think in nothing. But it's hard to replicate it this way in every day or in every session. But I have tried to do this point, but it's hard uh to do every time when I try to do some new project. I try to do this probably this meditation, um, but it's different day after day. Maybe if you today uh woke up uh in comfort or you stay relaxed, change a lot. If you haven't a lot of problems of your life, if you uh have some discussion with your wife, or you have some problem with uh uh your friend or uh your with your parents, it's hard to replicate it. But sometimes when you stay relaxed and uh your life stay in chill mood, it's too easy for put this mood to richiamare questo modo. It's way easier to find the right way this way.

SPEAKER_02 42:14

So I'm just gonna say it back to you to see if I understand. It seems like the best attempts come when you really focus on the move in front of you, the climbing right there, and you don't think about the later part, the danger at the top, or what will happen if I finally send my project that you're really focused on just right there. So I want you to take me back to that day where you did Exodia and kind of tell me about what it was like walking up there, you know, a place you've been a bunch, and how you were able to change that mindset because something that I struggle with is let's say there's a climb or a move, and I fall and I fall and I fall. I feel like what happens is that's my routine is to fall. And it's hard for me to switch. And so you kind of told me what you did and how it worked, but can you just tell me more about that day and you know how beautiful that area is too? Because you've spent a lot of time there.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yeah, I know. And maybe this is my best quality, probably, because I'm sure I'm not the strongest clan in the world, for sure. But probably my biggest quality is the perseverance, and uh it's hard to explain because when I try a project, my mind thinks okay, you can do it. Every project I have tried, I have done. And the the first time when I've tried Burden, I can do not the first move and not the jump move. I do did just uh two moves. In the middle, but my mind, I'm thinking, okay, one day you you can do it for sure. And this is maybe my different approach in climbing, and maybe this is my best quality. And yeah, sometimes when I try Exodia for a long time, when I go back at home, no, now I stop to try this boulder because it's maybe it's too hard for me, or maybe it's not super congenial to me because I'm a super stronger climber when the boulder is not super super long. Maybe six, seven moves, maybe Exodia is really long, maybe it's not my style, but I think a lot, yeah, Exodia is super my style because I'm super stronger on the helook, I'm super strong on the knee bar, and you have a rest in the middle. And if you haven't a rest, it's really, really, really hard. But you have a rest in the middle and you can do the two sections. In my mind, the exodia are the two sections to connect together for the boulder, are not exodiac, the full line. And when I I go back in Exodia day after day, day after day, because if I can do the moves or the section of Exodia, I can do maybe all every hard boulder in the world. Yeah, there are some specific boulder like uh small holes because uh Exodia haven't uh really really sharp or super super small holes because the holes are pinch, are uh crimp, but it's not super super small because the wall is at 60, 65 degree, and you haven't uh 80 millimeter holes. Uh it's impossible to do with the maybe in the future uh some uh new talents guy can do uh to take this all in the 60 degree, but I don't think it's possible do now. And maybe Exodia have have represented me in all mood because Exodia are my objective of my life, are the objective of my training. Uh and this is it's a really interesting uh thing. When I did Burden, I go back to Exodia, and okay, I did Burden. Now the Exodia part is really easy for me because I did one NA. If the middle part of Exodia for me is 8C, and you have tried a lot. When I go back, I can do the final part. Just for the pinch and the crimping for put the double heel and take this pinch and the other pinch are crazy. And and I don't know why. And I I have found another beta for the pinch to go directly here, but this move it's maybe A B A B plus single moves to take the souls and are impossible to do after uh this whole move for me. And uh because Exodia for me, it's uh if I try some hard boulder in the world, maybe in one session or two sessions I readapt really fast my body, but in Exodia it's readapt your body, it's really really hard to readapt really fast the body. And this is the way why I try a lot this boulder, because every day is different, every moment are different, and uh your body change. Um it's it's hard to explain because Exodia have motivated me a lot for uh for do my best uh for do this boulder and for do some hard boulder like Exodia around the world. And uh for me it's my temple. I don't know, it's my uh panel training, my project, my my routine of the life, no? And when I send Exodia in the in the day before, it's really frustrating a little bit. I'm super happy to have finished my process, but I am come in English, uh empty. But empty. I'm empty for maybe like two weeks. I'm super empty because and maybe probably my process are a little bit longer because one part of Elias loves to send Exodia, but maybe one part of Elias uh not loves to send Exodia for uh stop the process, no? And it's it's hard to explain.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

That makes sense. Uh I I want to point out something you said at the beginning that I found really interesting, where you said that you are able to believe that you will do anything you try, that you just have this belief that you will be able to send. And I think that a lot of people say that, but you really proved it by spending hundreds of sessions. I I think that's really special. I think that is unique to you. Uh, and you know, you're still pretty young, you know. Uh now that you are empty, that also makes room for a new project. You know, how how do you feel about if if I told you that your next five years means you know 400 sessions on a new climb, does that excite you or are you just tired and you say no more, no more?

SPEAKER_01 49:55

No. I not for now I have another project in the low valley uh to Exodium. Um maybe it's really, really hard. Uh I have tried for 10 sessions and the the hard single move I haven't done. Maybe it's just a B A B plus single moves. But for now, yeah, I have a project near home, but for now I I love to send Sudan Sol because it's really cool line, and uh spot of times because are my true objectives to this winter, but um replicated the same process to Exodia. Uh it's I don't know. No, I don't know now. Maybe I found uh the best line in the world, the super hard line in the world, because I'm sure in the world, yeah, I'm still looking to the perfect line. I I imagine my perfect line to like finish line, but super hard there or super, I don't I don't know. And I'm still looking. I I spend a lot of time in the in my rest day near my home because I have a lot of rock in this valley, and I work a lot for finding this the super line. And I hope to find this one, and maybe I will start to do another long process like this, like um the process uh to Exodia. But for now, it's important to me to climb for fun and for try art projects, but not for for years.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

Tell me more about what makes a climb the perfect climb or the the super line. Is it beauty? Is it uh location? Is it the movement? For you, what makes something perfect?

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Everything, everything. Because the perfect line, the location, it's really important. And the moments are too important, like the beautiful to the rock, because sometimes I have found some not super good boulder, but the moves are super fun and super cool. But the mix of all is the best line for sure. And if you see finish line, you have a perfect location, a perfect boulder, a perfect moves, a perfect all, it's all perfect. But I think in the world it's possible to find another perfect line like this. Because for now, for me, the best line in the world is finish line, because I see a lot of line in the world, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

So it sounds like you have been traveling,

Proposing The World's First V18/9A+

SPEAKER_02 52:36

trying some 9A's. Tell me more about deciding to propose 9A plus and just you know what went through your mind and also how the world reacted. You know, like I said, all of a sudden you became famous, and there was some good parts and some probably not so great parts.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

Yeah. Okay. This part it's hard to explain, but I try. Uh for me, Exodia are really important process. And for me, it's the hardest boolder I have tried and I have done to compare it to the other 9A I've done and I have tried. Yeah. But for the Nene Plus, it's not a confirmed degrade, it's just a proposal. And for me, the Nene Plus proposal is when I've sent Exodia in the first time I have thinking not put the grade on Exodia because I don't know if it's real Nene Plus or it's Nene Super Art. I don't know. But in this moment it's really difficult to put a grade. But if I can put two grade to Exodia, maybe Exodia still born with me, but maybe in the same time are dead with me. I don't know. It's um probably uh not a lot in um not a lot of climbers uh are coming without the grade. Yeah, without the grade, maybe not a lot of climbers come to try. And I think it's to harder than Nene, and put Exodia Nane A, it's a super reductive grade for me, for my process and for my experience. I haven't done all Nene in the world, but it's really impossible to have all Nene in the world because when I try Exodia, try Burton, try some other boulder, uh in the middle of this part, I have worked in a gym, and it's hard because I'm a professional climber from this year, and uh it's hard to move a lot because uh three years ago I have spent my half year to work in a gym and my half year to to climb. But for my experience to the boulder I have tried, the nene I've tried, and the nene I have done, maybe exodia is harder, and this is the nene proportional. But I'm not super convinced that if it's nene plus, uh at uh maybe for the other people come to the beta, to the perfect condition, to a different process, maybe Exodia still nene plus, or maybe still nene hard uh or still nene, but for sure it's super super hard.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

I I mean it sounds like you just we're being honest, you know, and and also I do think that putting a 9A plus grade on it does attract more people. Uh I I worry that if you had not graded it, if you had just said, oh, I climbed something hard, that it kind of would have fallen into obscurity and no one would have come to try it. I know from talking to James Pearson that you guys had a bit of a discussion around it because you know he he's done a lot of hard first ascents and went through his own you know ups and downs with it. What did you learn from talking to James about you know what he went through and your decision to grade it?

SPEAKER_01 56:27

Yeah, uh when I speak with James, uh James told me it's a difficult uh uh choice to do because uh at the first moment, uh with an NA ⁇ , it's super super uh important news. But at the same time, if if you have a big downgrade, it's uh super better news for you and for your uh career or for your personality. But I I have think a lot at this, but I have send Exodia for me, not for the people, not for the grade, because when I send Exodia, my life is the same. I I go in uh in the gym to do the resetter, and I can put the Nene Plus for the community or for uh for becoming famous, and because uh I'm I stay in my part of the world. I don't post a lot of in Instagram, I'm not an influencer, I I love climbing just for me. And for me, the grade it's not important. If Exodia stays in Nene Plus, I'm I'm happy. If Exodia still nene harder, I'm happy the same because the grade not change the process have Exodia represented for me.

SPEAKER_02 57:49

Yeah, James said something uh similar where he said he felt like you were in a tough position because you have climbed on these nine A's, and you know, Exodia is harder, and you just have to be honest with how you feel, and you know that it could cause some uproar, but it would be worse to lie. Lying would be the wrong thing to do. So he felt like you were kind of in a tough position, but it is funny how even at the end of the day, you just go climbing, you know, it's all the same, really, and then people can argue about it. But uh, I'm glad that you just tell your own truth and then see what happens. And and you said that perhaps by putting that grade on it, people would be interested. And so I'm wondering if people are interested. Have you been showing people the climb? Are is there climbers coming to to try it as well?

SPEAKER_01 58:46

When I put the Nene Plus on Exodia, I totally honest with me. Because in my life I I have spent a lot of time to push my limits in Boulder and uh but for my personality and uh if I haven't put Nene Plus on Exodia, maybe for one year I have some uh regrets because the important thing if I stay in good mood with Elias, I can do all my best in my life. And this is one big point of my life, and for me, the Nene Plus or Nene, it's not important. Yeah, maybe for uh the climbing community or for the climbing world, it's important the grade, but not for Elias. If Exodia and not still Nene Plus, it's not important. Um, it's hard to explain this to the community, but it's uh because I don't climb just for the grade, or I climb for me and for the beautiful moment to this part give me. I don't know to the natural contact for the just for the one super incredible uh moment of just the simple shoes you can uh have uh during your climbing session, just like the uh smell to the brush, to the rock, to the it's this is the what I think is the best climbing mood. Yeah, it's important to do hard buddha, hard line, but it's not all. The the important it's you if you stay in a good mood with your personality and with your sport, and you can do all your best in this mood. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Well, it sounds to me like that is one of your secrets for being able to climb on something session after session is just enjoying it, just the thing itself, you know, not getting to the top, not you know, making an Instagram post of a new grade, which is fine, it's part of our sport. Getting to the top is part of the sport, but that only keeps you going for so long. You have to just enjoy being there doing your thing. I love that image of the smell of the brush on the holds, especially if it's kind of damp and it rained. That's cool. Uh

Who's Trying Exodia Right Now?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

so it did attract attention though, and I'm wondering if, yeah, have you toured professional climbers out there? There's, you know, are people coming out to try it after you put that grade on there, or even just that they like the line and think it's beautiful?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:54

Yeah, when I climb Exodia in some sessions, some some local Italian guys have tried with me Exodia, and this guy climbed uh until a C boulder, and this guy can do the moves, and Exodia it's really really hard. And uh after send Exodia, some guys have come to try the boulder, uh, like Camille Houdet, my friend uh and Giuliano Cameroni, and uh for Giuliano thinking it's really really hard, and Camille um came uh these days for trying Exodia and and did the moves, and uh he thinking it's really hard. And in the the past days uh have come Adam to try the boulder, and Adam is so strong because Adam has done the two parts separate, and uh he thinks it's really hard. And I have speak a little bit with Adam with the the two part from Exodia, and Adam thinking the first part is A B plus hard, and for me it's just A B. And but for the second part, uh Adam don't think it's A C, maybe it's like AC super aleatory because Adam is longer than me, and when I jump to the pinch, Adam's still with the toe hook to the pinch, and maybe this way maybe it's a little bit easier than 8c. But the first part is harder than A B. But he don't know it's for sure hard A B, and he don't know the full grade if you start from the ground for do the boulder, how it's harder for sure Adam told me it's hard 9A, but he doesn't think it's the next step to the boulder. But this is super important. Uh have this uh I don't know in English.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

It has been nice because he's the greatest of all the time. Yeah, you know, goat. Yeah, we say goat.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

Yeah, yeah, sure is. And for me, just looking at Adam, try my boulder and stay together with him. And for me, it's really, really cool moment. Cool, uh, one of the best moments of the climbing days of my life. I haven't climbed, but just watching Adam to my boulder is super emotional. And uh Adam have the line, it's so beautiful, and yeah, and maybe he came back in the the next days for uh finding the boulder. And yeah, I hope Adam sent the boulder and uh and I don't know if uh confirming the grade or downgrading uh to uh Nene Hart, but uh it's for me not changed, nothing. It's important to Adam have come and like the boulder, and this is super important.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:09

Ah, that's so cool. That's really cool that he came out and is trying it. It sounds like he maybe had a little bit different beta for one section because he's he's pretty darn tall. Uh, between him and some of the those other climbers, did anyone have significantly different beta or did they end up settling on similar beta to how you did it?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

No, every guy is using like Adam, using the same beta like me, but is just because when I jump, I stay with the toe hook, but I'm a little bit smaller and I lose my head the toe, and but Adam stay with the toe. And but the beta is is the same because it's really hard to find uh new new beta or too easy beta for uh to the boulder.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Did Adam have more success or a lot of success on the knee bar rest? Because I always think of that part when he did silence and he was training knee bars. You know, Adam, not only is he one of the best climbers of all time, he may be the best knee bar of all time. How'd he do with that rest?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:19

Yeah, I I have speaking with Adam and uh he think uh the knee bar rides it's hard because uh yeah you remove the tension to the to the hands. It's the same um thinking the same to me because you can put a lot of pressure to the calf for uh put um the near in super compression, and this is really important to not stay a lot and uh because you can get tired the um the legs and uh if you not stay the correct time, uh you maybe your hands are not super fresh, and uh yeah, it's not uh a super comfortable uh knee barrels.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

Yeah, it's I watched the video where you guys talked about the knee bar a lot, and even what you described earlier about depending on the condition, the knee bar sticks differently, and then if it sticks well, maybe it doesn't stick so well for the hands, and just balancing all of that makes it a really complex line. Uh and so it was I was just curious about the rest, it seems so important. And if anyone knows how to do a knee bar rest, I would think it would be Adam. He seems like uh he's

Elias's New Projects

SPEAKER_02 1:07:40

the one. So it sounds like now you're able to be a professional climber. Did I hear that right? That now this year are you working less and able to travel more?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

Yeah, yeah. I'm super motivated for uh my project. And in this period, I started an intensive training, not a super specific training, but super hard training. And maybe I go back in England in the middle of October, and after England I go back in uh in in Fontaineblev.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:16

I'm curious why you want to go and do Sudan Sell and Spots of Time. It seems like you really love developing. You know, what is drawing you to those particular climbs when it sounds like you have you know other hard FAs to do?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:35

Yes, because uh I have spent a lot of time in my life to cleaning the boulder for do my project, and maybe now it's important for me climbing uh other boulder around the world because uh it's not for doing the NA in the world because it's not important, because if it's not a cool line, I can go to try. And spot of time is a small boulder, but the location is super nice because you have uh a lake and you stay alone, and you haven't a lot of people uh with you when you climb, and it's a nice place because you do 25 minutes to work, but the the place is amazing, and the moves on a spot of times are really cool. And when I see the video to I done, okay, this is a cool line. Yeah, it's small, but it's a super cool line, super cool moves, and I love it, and I go back for uh for sand, and the same for Solan Sol. When I go in Fontainebleau, this is curious because when I send Exodium last year, I go to Fontainebleau, and okay, now you go to Fontainebleau for uh chill climbing, for uh easy stuff, for fun moments. But I have seen the video for uh simulancy for Solan Sol, and okay, I go to check just for uh watch the boulder, and this is crazy because when I see the boulder, it's the first time I see the boulder. Wow, this is a king line. This is a really king line because when you see the video, yes, it's a cool line, but it's not the same to the reality. And okay, I try just big island because I can restart to try a long project. And when I send Big Island, okay, I try just some moves to the the low part, and but I have sent big island and I did in a day the the first part the the low part, yeah. Okay, now I can do the boulder, but and I stay one month and a half in Fontainebleau, and I have tried just sold and soul and the boulder uh to the right is convention, and maybe I did the first repetition to the conviction duba. Uh it's like it's A B from Similar.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:05

Oh, is that a low start to the there's like because that Ada?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:11

Oh, that's hard. Yeah, that's really hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:14

Yeah, it's it's but for me because I have did one session to uh Solan Sol and okay, I'm tired. I try this one too low, and I have sent it. And uh and uh Camille uh the the next the day before you send it. This one is uh it's not uh I haven't repetition. Oh wow, I haven't put my the video or the phone, I haven't the video. Maybe when I go back to Solan Sol, maybe I do the video to the Buddha. And uh I have tried another project with Camille and Kilian uh in another sector and stop. And yeah, I go to fun climbing, chill climbing, no, a project. Yeah, it's crazy because uh when uh the line is really cool and it's really perfect, the movie is so beautiful, not depending to send the boulder or not send the time because you stay climbing. If you send uh one 8A for okay or a 7A or uh 9A is the same, is this you you climb, but when I climb, I found uh uh all times to push my body in super hard position or super hard, and it's not the same. Uh it's hard to explain because sometimes I go to climb through easy stuffs, or uh but it's different because it's fun, but it's not fun when you try to push your limits, and uh this is why I have tried Exodia for uh for years, or I have go to Fontainebleau and tried just this project.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:01

Yeah, you you were not supposed to be a competition climber. It sounds to me like what you like, uh yeah, trying hard, being on beautiful king lines, putting in effort time after time, again, not not competitions. Uh sounds like you've really found your your path. It's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:20

Yeah.

How To Go From Good To Great

SPEAKER_02 1:13:21

Okay, uh, I'm gonna ask you the question I ask everyone, and that's how do you go from good to great?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

I think my best quality is the perseverance, and I have spent a lot of time to push my limits. And maybe one part of the talent is important, yeah, but the talent it's not all in the sport climbing or in all sports. Yeah, because if you have talent but you don't put uh intensive training or uh a lot of motivation, the the talent or uh normal uh people change in your mind. If you have a strong mind to push your limits, and if you have a lot a lot of time to because when I stay at home, I I I think a lot of time to to found a new super line, or uh I think a lot of time to the the moment or the project uh for uh do the better way for the next days, or uh uh and maybe some days when I rest, I go in my garage to uh for um per riparare the moto.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:40

To work on the motorbikes.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:42

Yeah, to work on the motorbikes for uh uh don't thinking a lot on the project, but maybe sometimes it's important because you have an objective and it's in the life. I think if you have an objective, it's the correct way, have an objective, you you can put you in a different mood. I don't know, uh like if you haven't an objective if your life but it's not just in climbing, but just in the life of all people. Maybe I have the objective to find a perfect line or a super line, maybe uh Ale have uh another objective if in your life is but it's really important to have an objective because maybe if you have an objective uh it's different to having an objective because you can push uh per if you have if you have a goal, you can find your own path to reach that goal. Yeah, it's it's it's hard in English, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:54

No, it was great. Uh I mean also you told us many, many things over the course of the podcast about what makes you special and how you've achieved what you had, what you've done. And again, one of the things that really stood out to me was that ability to believe or know that you can do a climb from the very start and that it's just a matter of time. I I think that is amazing. Uh thank you. Okay, I'm gonna move us over to these uh bonus questions that were from my patrons specifically for you, and actually you led right into it with part of your answer. If you want to hear that QA and other extra behind-the-scenes content from this episode and others, head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad-free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow, please share this episode with someone who would love it. Okay, see you next week.