#201 Ethan Pringle — The Level Of Difficulty In Pro Climbing, Why Beta Refinement Never Ends, and What Holds Back Most Climbers?

Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Being able to try hard is by far the most important skill in climbing. There's nothing that can substitute it. I think a willingness to try hard and also probably be observed by other people trying hard is the thing that you need to climb anywhere close to your limit. There's not a single pro climber out there who feels embarrassed or self-conscious about. I mean, I guess there are there I well, I shouldn't say that. There's probably a lot of pro climbers who feel embarrassed or self-conscious about being seen trying hard. But I think that you do it anyway and you have that gear because you want it so bad. Like the try hard is the enjoyable part. The difficulty is the enjoyable part. That's why you keep showing up. And I think that like the climbers' biggest limitation by far, just universally, is that they give up too easily.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Welcome to the Test Piece Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com/slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Ethan Pringle, welcome back to the podcast, man. Good to have you.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Josh Horsley, thanks for having me back. My old friend.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Dude, the full name. I love it. Ethan, I think you set a record for the longest someone has gone that has come on twice, and you came on episode number 19. I think I don't even know what episode we're on. I don't know how it works. I'm like, that was like four years ago, is what really matters.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

It's been a while. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

It's been a while. Lots has happened. Uh I think the last time I saw you, I was on my dude moon in Mallorca. Is it really? Because I don't count doing a podcast as seeing you. Like we're not climbing, we're not yelling about things. Podcast feels differently. And I feel like now you're on a bit of a dude moon. A last hurrah. I I'm glad to catch you in California before you head back to South Africa because you have a little one on its way.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah, my wife is, I think technically in the third trimester. Um, she's due January 23rd-ish. I mean, you know, they never arrive exactly when they're scheduled to, but um yeah, yeah. I mean, big, big, uh, big life transitions on the way for me. Um that, you know, I'm equally excited about and terrified by.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

You used the term impending fatherhood. Uh, and I thought that was freaking hilarious. It's not, it's like that weight, that that heaviness coming in, impending, not like uh I got a kid coming soon. It's it's impending. Uh any any reason why you used that specific word?

SPEAKER_01 3:17

I mean, I think it just like so concretely marks a new phase of life that I think is, you know, for someone like me who's enjoyed such a high level of freedom and I guess relative lack of responsibility for most of their life, it um it feels like, yeah, it feels like a um even though I'm, you know, when I imagine what fatherhood will be like with all the the chaos and stress and joy and you know, newness and love, you know, it's also it's it's scary for someone who's enjoyed the the kind of freedom that that I have for for most of my life.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Uh it's the best chapter. Um it's it's it is all those things, and somehow uh the benefit is equally related to how hard it is. Uh Ethan, you do a lot of scary things. You you're definitely a bold climber. Uh is there any side of you that's like the fact it's scary, the fact it's you know nerve-wracking, that like to me that's often a sign that like we're right on the edge of what's special. Like, I don't want it to be boring. I don't want climbing to be comfortable. I don't know if I want life to be comfortable. I kind of think that's like a sign that maybe you're on the right track.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

I like doing scary things. Yeah. I mean, I like doing scary things, not because I want to, you know, find out what the consequences are, but because I think that I've I've alongside enjoying a very high level of freedom and lack of responsibility in my life, I've also enjoyed a very high level of privilege in that I haven't had to be in survival mode for very much of my life, like a lot of people out there are. And I think that's afforded me a level of trust in the universe that not a lot of people have. And I think that I I think that sometimes like pushing my boundaries or playing with the edge, it's it's like a exercise in continuing to choose that the universe has my back and that, you know, I can I can trust in myself and trust in my path and um that things are gonna turn out okay because they have so far. But yeah, I mean, like obvious obviously the prospect of fatherhood is scary, not maybe in the same way that you know highball bouldering is. I'm excited for it, not just because it's scary, but I think that's like, you know, I think I like doing things that scare me because it, you know, it's also just challenging.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

I got good news, it will all work out. Uh, I always like this phrase optimists get rich, pessimists sound smart. And it's this idea where, or at least the way I always interpret is that it's really easy to imagine how things can go wrong. There's, you know, there's a I mean, if you're driving down the road doing 80 miles an hour, it's like we could just crash. Like, I don't know, things could just run out in front of it. Just seems wild that even driving works. There's not as many paths for things to go well as there are for it to go bad. And so it's easy to like imagine how things go wrong. But the reality is, like, I feel like if you are optimistic, think that the universe does have your back, that you're more likely to have it work out. If you dwell, you know, like if you're up there on the highball and all you think about is falling, like, I don't know, hard to do the next move where if you focus, at least the way I've always approached my scarier climbing, is I just really focus on the climbing. Like, then there's not really space to think about the consequences if you really focus on the thing in front of you. And uh parenthood is so um all-engrossing when you're in it. It's you know, if you have a baby crying, you just have to deal with it. Like there's no, there's no checking your phone, you're just in it. And so that can be, it's like you just go through it, you know, because you're there. And so it's gonna work out. I got good news for you. Just like all your climbing highballs do. I don't even think you've ever fallen or taken like a bad fall, dude. Oh, you I remember you breaking your heel on Mandala Sit, but that's not like a high ball. That was just you missing a pad.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah, yeah. I fractured my I had like a hairline fracture in my calcaneus. Um I think it was New Year's Eve 2007 when that happened. And yeah, I mean, it it's like, you know, I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus here, but there were friends of ours who were sitting on crash pads watching me try it, you know. Um, which is like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

I just they just didn't believe you would do it, dude. Uh like they didn't think.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Well, if they didn't believe I would do it, then why were they not putting more crash pads below me? I feel like a lack of faith means like, let's let's give this guy let's let's like let's make sure he's safe when he falls. Yeah. That was like that was I mean, I think that I wasn't like all of the times when I've approached high balls and I could see like there are obvious potential consequences to falling, you know, it's like you often just think of all the like worst case scenarios that happen if you fall, and you know, in all likelihood, none of those are gonna happen. Um, but I think that, you know, contemplating all of these worst-case scenarios makes you approach climbs that have obvious potential consequences with so much more caution and calculation. And I think I've I've almost never fallen and not been prepared or let go or whatever. Like usually when you when you approach something dangerous with an abundant abundance of caution and calculation, then you don't, you know. It's when you rush it and you don't you don't make those calculations, then maybe you at least expect to fall and get hurt or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

What are some ones that you've backed off of?

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Wow, that's a good question. I don't know if I've like given up on that many climbs where there was like potential consequence, but I think what I've done is I've had a session on something and I've thought, I could try this now, but I'm not going to. I don't feel prepared enough. I don't feel like I can try this without feeling so freaked out that I'm not gonna climb, relax, and I'm not gonna climb my best. So I'm gonna do, I'm gonna come back and figure out how to make this safer. And sometimes that means just dialing in the moves more and feeling more prepared to go for it a hundred percent committed. And sometimes that means, okay, I need to figure out how to protect this to make it feel safer, even though it might in reality not be any safer when I try it. But if I think to me it's important that I feel as safe as possible because if I'm feeling unsafe, then I'm gonna be really distracted and I'm not gonna climb well, and then I'm more likely to fall, like you said. You know, I'm gonna be maybe not consciously thinking about the fall, but I'm gonna be like holding that energy in my body, which is just like the last thing you want on something that has some potential consequence.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

You were kind of part of the early vanguard of doing beautiful tall boulders. Uh yeah, I remember didn't you flash evolution direct? That was a big deal to me, because I always thought that was a heck of a climb. Uh, and you've done stuff like the beautiful and the damned. Didn't you do the beautiful and the damned? God, man. God, that's terrifying. My hands sweat as I talked about. Uh, I mean, I could go on, you know, you FA'd Clockwork Orange, which is also like a tall, proud line. And what do you think that the proliferation of pads has done to kind of change highball bouldering? Because I'm kind of curious if like it's changed. Like, are people going bigger? Um, because you would think that with there being dozens of pads instead of like three pads that had to be moved so that you didn't break your uh heel underneath Mendelecit, uh, that we'd see taller, bigger. But yeah, can you just take me through that evolution of what the early years of chasing those big, proud lines were like to kind of what it's like nowadays? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah, I mean, I think that because I sort of was a sport climber first, I guess. Um I sort of looked at highball bouldering kind of like this perfect mix between bouldering and sport climbing, you know. It's like a it's like a more of a prolonged physical challenge where you have to stay engaged for more time and and stay focused. And there's also kind of like a power endurance and efficiency aspect to it. You kind of have to climb efficiently, you can't over-grip, you can't, you know, you can't climb so inefficiently that you get high off the ground and you know, you you feel like you can't climb any higher where you're in like a you know bit of a no-fall zone or whatever. And I think also like back when I started becoming interested in high ball bouldering, I was just a lot less like fragile feeling. So I was able to do a lot of really high, kind of sketchy, you know, things with probably flat landings, like in the in the milks, like almost everything has a flat landing. But I was just so much more bouncy. I mean, when I consider the tiny number of pads I probably had to climb Evolution or This Side of Paradise or even the beautiful and damned, like now I would need at least three times the number of pads to feel even remotely safe on those things. I just feel so much more like frail and brittle now. Um, but I think that it helped a lot that I was a lot younger, more bouncy, and I think just like a little bit less just generally afraid of I think I maybe I just pondered, you know, worst-case scenarios a little bit less. Like now when I'm approaching things that have potential consequences, I just have to do so much more work than I used to to make myself feel safe enough to like give committed tries. Um but I think that, you know, I became interested in highball bouldering because it was like this really, it's like it's almost like a tiny but more pure sport climb, you know, like you have the freedom of, you know, climbing without any gear attached to you, without a rope attached to you, but you still get to kind of stay in that really focused, present zone for like a more prolonged period of time than like shorter boulders provide. And I think that I was always really kind of drawn to that and intrigued by that. And I think just like because I had that sport climbing background, I knew that I could try hard for a prolonged amount of time in a way that allowed me to kind of stay relaxed, you know, because I had been doing that so long on sport climbing on in sport climbs already. You know, I knew that I could like keep trying hard, but in a way that wasn't like a hundred percent engagement, you know. Like I knew that I could do sort of moderately difficult climbing high off the ground without freaking out or without like over gripping.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Bouldering was not super popular when we started climbing. It was definitely kind of a burgeoning discipline and it was really looked at as training for sport climbing. And I feel like somehow I was a little bit incepted by that that like bouldering wasn't that cool. But then when you go to Bishop and you climb highballs and you just go like, oh, really? You don't think bouldering's cool? Like, go do evolution, like see what you are up there, see what kind of guy you are when you pull that lip. Uh and it's I think I always fell in love with the aesthetics of highball bouldering and felt like in some ways it stood out, like the line stood out sometimes even better than at a cliff, where you know, if you walk up to jailhouse, like jailhouse is like a beautiful cliff and it is stunning. But I don't know if like there's that many lines that I pick out as I'm walking up. It kind of just looks like a beautiful jumbled mess. Where I thought that highball bouldering did have this mix of I like the idea of like mini beautiful sport climbs almost.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Totally. Yeah, and I mean it's like you don't even really have to say, oh, they're you can I mean you can take the challenge and the beauties and the aesthetics of highball lines as they are. You don't even really need to like compare them to any other discipline. But I think that, yeah, I mean, exactly what you said, sport crags can feel like a jumbled mess, and it can also feel like I mean, depending on the sport crag, you know, there are some crags that where you're like, wow, that's such a standout line, even if there's variations or whatever, like the the routes really follow well-defined, obvious features. But I think, you know, in a place like the Milks or other bouldering areas, just the purity of the lines and the beauty of the lines is like pretty undeniable. You know, you you see a climb and any climber would be like, wow, that's so inspiring. You know, and I think that if you don't feel like, oh, I'm too intimidated or afraid to do that, then it just opens up a whole world of like possibility.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Although I would say if you're a little intimidated, a little afraid, that's maybe maybe a good sign. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Yeah, I think a little bit of fear is good because then it it just forces you to make you know more honest

The Evolution Of Bouldering and Today's Level Of Difficulty

SPEAKER_01 16:44

calculations.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Well, bouldering has evolved a lot, and now people are bouldering. I mean, of course, aesthetics are always gonna be part of everything we do in life. Uh, but boy, are people bouldering hard. I think when we started, I don't think dream time had been, I don't think there was an 8C of V-15. I'm sure there was V14. The fact I don't even know is because it just wasn't part of the discussion. It almost didn't matter. I mean, Fred Nicole was just off doing Fred Nicole things. And now we see V17, even proposed V18. What do you think of just the new difficulty level that climbing has gone on and reached over these past, I don't know, man, 30 years?

SPEAKER_01 17:29

It's insane how high the level is now. You know, I think that like maybe 15, well, probably more like 20 years ago, I could watch the best climbers in the world climb the hardest stuff in the world, and I could think like, there's not a move in the world that I can't do, you know? And now, especially with all the board videos and stuff, um, but certainly the comps, and then, you know, like you said, out out outdoor bouldering. I mean, the level is just so high. Like, I'm constantly seeing people do moves, maybe not so much on rock, but certainly on the boards and stuff, that I'm like, I will never do that move, you know. And there are thousands of people who can do who can climb like that, you know. It's just like the level is insanely high, and it's just like getting pushed higher and higher every year. It's impressive. I mean, it's just like, you know, in terms of like pure strength metrics, I I mean, I I don't even feel like I'm in in the top 1,000 or even 5,000 percentile or people number of people that are like, you know, can can board climb harder than anyone. It's it's just like, I mean, you know, you you climb on a board fairly regularly and you see the videos of what people are doing, and and even just like what people are doing on rock, you know, I think that it's almost like what people are doing on rock has to catch up to what people are doing on the boards in these controlled environments. You know, the rock can only provide so much difficulty, and uh of course there's always more things out there to find, and you know, that you hear of a lot of projects, and um, but it's like it didn't take Noah Wheeler that long to send Burden of Dreams. Like, you know, it didn't take Nikolai Uznick that long to almost send it's just like when you think about what how quickly people are doing just the hardest climbs in the world, you're like the sky's the limit. I mean, we're not even close to like tapping into what you know, the potential that people have.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Yeah. Why do you think it is like that? So I when I trace my history back and I almost want to say our history because we started at a similar time. Yeah, we were probably part of the first kids who really got exposed to gyms. Like, you know, we had access to gyms and volume, uh not volumes, but like a high volume of climbing, of hard climbing people, setting things, just getting to climb a lot. And I'm sure people looked at you back then and were just like, dude, this Ethan kid, just like, how is he so strong? Like, how does he just do this? In fact, I remember as you were just marching your way through everything, when you did biography, didn't you like even propose a downgrade to biography? I don't know how you feel about that, you know, 20 years later. But I just wonder if that's also part of you just being like, I don't know, guys, like it the stuff isn't that hard. And you know, you definitely marked like a new generation as well. But I'm curious why it's continuing to go like that. Like, what can we point towards that has allowed everyone to just push that level up and up and up?

SPEAKER_01 20:43

I think the biggest contributing factor to what raises the level is simply people's perception of what's possible. I think that like maybe there are people who come along and raise the level by a substantial margin, but I think the limit is being pushed a little bit more all the time. And um I think that people get into climbing now, these young people, men and women, and just everyone who's pushing the limit now. And their understanding of what's possible is just so much greater than ours. You know, it's like back when we started climbing, like you said, like V15 didn't exist. I mean, maybe V maybe there were V14s and 15s, but you know, they were put up by these old school characters who probably sandbagged and you know, who even knows what the first V14 and 15 was. But I mean, you know, back then, just the upper limit of what we thought was possible was so much lower, and now people are getting into climbing, and I think all they have to do to unlock more of their potential is to understand, you know, maybe not even the limit, but just like what's possible, the possibility. Of climbing performance. And yeah, I mean, I think it's just like genetics, spike, access to facilities, some combination of those things, and you put the right person in the right place, and boom, you have these young phenoms cropping up everywhere. And I think that they're they're also just like pushing each other, you know? They're like, oh, I saw, like, everyone sees what the level is, and everyone wants to know how close they can get to that level. And I think that, especially in bouldering, you know, with like you said, bouldering was a little was quite a bit more fringe when we started climbing. Sport climbing was the thing that was more in vogue. And now it's definitely bouldering, and it, and you know, you see all these highly specialized athletes who, you know, they probably take their their strength and their skills to other disciplines sometimes, but they're mostly just, you know, they're board climbing, they're climbing boulders on rock, and that's pretty much all they're doing. And, you know, they're they're so hungry for to just see what their abilities are, you know, and I don't even think it's necessarily like a competitive thing, but it's just like they see other people pushing the limits and they're like, like, I wonder if I can do that, you know. And I think that you and I probably had the same feeling when we were getting into comps, you know, 30 years ago of, oh, I see what the level here is, and I wonder if I could do that, you know, or maybe we like I probably even thought, like, oh, I I I might be able to do that. Maybe not like at this age, but at some like at some stage in my life, like I could probably be, you know, one of the best or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Yeah, this this whole ability to just go out and repeat stuff that has already been done that you know, if you want to climb a 9A, uh, you know, 14D back then, like it was just there was few and far between. And so like that was the established level that you get to measure yourself on. You get to like go through each grade, go through each climb. I and now, even on the boards, it's kind of nice because it kind of is brought to your gym. It's like, here you go. Like, this is what's established. But then it seems to me like the best of the best, and the people who stand out as some of the most important climbers in our history repeat, repeat, repeat, find that level. It seems like almost wherever it is, and then they push it past. And did you have a moment where you started thinking, like, I need to go develop, I'm done. You know, I've I've kind of made my mark repeating other climbs, and now I need to like see what I'm really capable of, you know, the next notch.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

I think most of my motivation for development just comes from this huge curiosity I have for discovery and for like just looking up at a boulder or at a wall and just like needing to know if this beautiful face or this line goes, you know, and then you do all this work to try to satiate that curiosity. You know, I think it all it all comes from like inspiration and curiosity. I I feel like when Sharma invited me to go try Jumbo Love in 2007, um, I think basic like the same year, just the same almost the same season, or maybe it was right before I went to France and did biography, but he, you know, he he called me up and he was staying with Chris Linder in Vegas, who was living there at the time, and he said, Hey, we're climbing up at the third tier of Clark Mountain, and I'm trying this futuristic project. Come try it with us. Like, it's the sickest line I've ever seen or touched or tried. And, you know, when you when Sharma calls you to go try the sickest undone project in the world, like, and you have the time, you definitely say yes. And, you know, so I went there and I was maybe in the best sport climbing shape or close to the best sport climbing shape I've ever been in, aside from a few peaks and valleys here. But but I went there and I did all the moves right away, and I thought, wow, this is like a next level project that I could imagine myself doing. So I went, I went back there the next fall, and I I think that it, you know, it wasn't like a line that I found, but it was something that was sort of it was a possibility that was presented to me as like a next level project that hadn't been done yet. And so I really wanted, you know, there was a there was like a brief season in my life where I wanted to do the first ascent of Jumbo Love. And I went there that fall after sending biography, and I did really well in it. And then that, you know, winter was the winter where I fractured my heel. And uh and then the next, you know, the next fall Chris did it. I think, you know, it was it was funny because I think Chris was like, oh shit, Ethan's pretty close. I better go satch this thing up, and then he did, you know. Um and then it took me, I don't know, eight more years or seven more years or something to to finish it. But um, but yeah, I think, and then like bolting bibliography was definitely like in that interest where I don't think it was like, oh, I've climbed out the c the crag, let me see what else I can do. It was kind of just like, wow, I look up at this wall and I just see like an ocean of possibility. And you know, you feel that just that undeniable. I think it's like there are so few people, I think, that well, maybe there's more people than I think that can relate to this, but I think I've felt so few types of motivation in my climbing career that match the desire for curiosity to know if something goes, you know? And it's just like I I I think almost the most inspired I feel is to wrap down a new climb, whether it's a boulder or a route or a deep water solar or whatever, just to know if it goes, you know, because I think that like that carrot that's always in front of you of can I do this is like it's it's kind of like the most exciting feeling in climbing. And then of course you sometimes you have to do all this work to bring something to life. And then that moment where you put your shoes on and you tie into the rope or you you know strap your chalk bag around your waist and you're like, wow, I get to do this thing, I get to try this thing that I've been, you know, so curious about for so long, or maybe even not that long, but just like you know, you get to you get to taste that carrot finally, and maybe you just gobble it down first try, or maybe you take one bite and you're like, wow, this carrot is for the next generation, you know, like with bibliography, I bolted it, I wrapped down it, I was like, wow, it really seems like there's enough holds on this wall to make this possible, and but it seems really hard, and then I got on it, and sure enough, I was like, wow, the the crux of this route is insane. And I I actually remember guessing this is gonna be 15D. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

I remember you saying something about the crux to me that you would have rather done the swarm, which is like a very crimpy, thin 13 slash 14 in the milks, um, that you would rather have had the swarm than the bibliography crux. Do I remember that right?

SPEAKER_01 29:25

I probably did say that. I mean, I think for me the swarm is probably an easier boulder than the bib crux. Wow. Yeah. I don't know. I don't I don't think that it would be for everyone, but for me, the bib crux kind of embodies everything that I'm bad at in bouldering. It is like a really hard shoulder move and really small in-cut crimps, and it's like, yeah, I think that I my shoulders compared to other pro climbers are probably not as strong, and I'm definitely not as strong on really small in-cut crimps. So I think it's like basically everything I'm bad at. Oh, and really bad feet also. Yeah. I haven't I haven't spent that much time trying the Bib Crux. Last time I was there in 2023, I tried it a little bit, and it felt just about as impossible as it did the first time I tried it when I bolted it in 2011. But um, but yeah, it's I mean, to talk about Sayuse for a second, um, I mean, like, dude, Yanya, Laura Rigora. Jeez. So sick. I mean, the level, like to talk about the level, it's you know, I I feel so um I feel so glad that you know I was like overcome with curiosity about this line in 2011 when I was hanging out in Seyus for months and you know, mostly not sending the things that I was trying, um, which is part of the reason why I bolted bib, um, was just because like I was like, oh I I've maybe I have an opportunity to create something here, even if I can't climb the established routes that I'm trying. But it's so cool that you know, this climb that was kind of just like a random, you know, side quest for me in 2011 and Sayee's turned into this like iconic test piece that you know the current generation is like proving themselves on.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Dude, you gave probably some of those people some of the best days of their life. Uh you know, Magos with that was it called like rock punk, you know, that video on it. Such a good video. Clearly, probably have blasts on it. Yanya, I assume Laura had a great time on it, but she just kind of like posted like a check mark. She's like, Oh, just kind of showed up.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Did that was no big deal for Laura Rigora.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Dude, her, we've talked about this on Good Tempts. Her tick list when she goes to places, insane. It's like, well, the the crazy part is that not that long ago, that tick list of her week-long trip would have been the tick list of a lifetime tick list of a professional climber. You know, have been like, wow, you did all of those in your life. Those are some of the best, most iconic climbs. And it's just like, that's her weekend. And I, I yeah, I just it's hard for me to imagine how much volume of hard, amazing climbing she's done.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

It's really astounding. I mean, when you read her Instagram posts, you're like, what? Like this, you know, 20 years ago, you would be like, this is fake news. Like, no one, no human can possibly do this. And that's just like every other week for her, she's going out and oh, I did another 15A second try and a 14D second try, and I flashed all of these like five 14 minuses in a long weekend, you know. It didn't take any rest days. It's like, it's it's insane. I mean, like you said, it's you know, her her tick list is it's totally unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

I'm always just jealous of it because I'm just not just the difficulty, but just the quality of the climbs, and she just gets to do so much awesome climbing. Like it's just these lines, because a lot of them are like in the high eight range or low nines that I recognize from 10, 15 years ago that were like videos I saw that I just was drooling over. Like, say Kosi fan 2D, I'm probably saying that wrong. Like that to me just looks like the coolest line ever. I think it's 8C plus, and she just gets to flash it and then go on to the next one. And I'm just like jealous of she gets to climb more moves of high quality climbing than I don't know, I'm not sure who does more. So, yeah, the level, the women's level has really uh arisen in that time period, maybe maybe more than anyone's. Um uh I want to ask you about it. Could be you in front of Jumbo Love, it could be you in front of a new hard project, an undone thing. And something that I always struggle with when I'm pushing my limits, whether it's highball bouldering, sport climbing, is like I sit under it, especially these like long, imposing sport climbs. But it could be, you know, tall, scary boulders. And I just have a hard time like almost like believing in myself as I set off. And I was just thinking about like you at Jumbo Love, you're like out in the freaking middle of nowhere. I don't know how long that pitch is, it's like 50 meters or something. How long is Jumbo Love?

SPEAKER_01 34:17

It's seven, basically 70 meters.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

70. Okay, Jesus, that's a lot. Just like what goes through your mind? How do you like you've tackled the you know uncertainty time and time again? It's like it's kind of your MO, you know, it's what do you do as a professional climber? Like, what do you tell yourself? How do you like set off confidently on a 70-meter 15B?

SPEAKER_01 34:41

I mean, I think that the reality is a lot of the time you just you you aren't confident. You feel insecure, you feel scared, you feel like a lot of imposter syndrome. I mean, on Jumbo Love, I felt it big time because I just had so many years to build it up as this thing that I wasn't strong enough to do and I wasn't capable of doing, and maybe I didn't have the follow-through or whatever. Like it's just it became just such a edifice of doubt for me that you just have to put aside your disbelief and clock in, basically. And you know, I think with enough years of that practice, it kind of becomes like second nature. Once you're on the wall, you're not consciously thinking about the imposter syndrome and the doubt as much as you are about the climbing. But I think it still did weigh me down a bit, you know. I think there were probably days where I got through the low crux on Jumbo Love and into the upper half of the climb, and I probably let go because of some mental block. And I do remember having psychological breakthroughs where I would, you know, I remember the first time I stuck the red point crux of that climb from the ground. It's not like I was way less tired when I got to the rest, like that hand jam rest in the middle of the climb. I think I just had a slightly different attitude of like, huh, something has changed, and I feel like there's more of a possibility for me to stick this move right now. That was the only, you know, I I had gotten there enough times and I had proven to myself I I had enough proof that I was capable, at least of sticking the red point crux from the ground, and then I did it, you know, and it was just, I think it was nothing more than the story. And I think that, you know, the only way sometimes the only way to change the story from doubt to possibility or from possibility to confidence is just by putting in the work. I don't think there's really a shortcut. But I think that once you've been doing it for enough years, you fall into execution mode and your body just takes over. Your body just knows what to do. I mean, I'm I'm constantly surprised by how afraid I can feel before I get on the wall, either afraid of failure or afraid of the potential consequences of a fall off some climb. And then once I'm in the moment, I'm just executing and I'm trying as hard as I can. You know, I think that I've I've just had so many years of practice doing that that it just becomes second nature. Like, and it's not like a conscious transition that I make. It's just like, oh, I'm on the wall, I'm trying hard, I'm a hundred percent committed.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Uh, you totally just answered the question that I had for you, but also I I was talking to our buddy Mark Heel about things that he would want to ask you. And your execution has just always been amazing. When you know you can do something. I remember being with you in Waco and you were working on the machinist, which is like kind of like a V13. Then you kind of like did the moves. You probably like fell and got frustrated like on your first day, and you thought you were probably done your first day, and then you made some comment like, uh, ain't nothing left to it but to do it. And then either you like did it the next try, or it was just like this switch. It was like, okay, like I'm just going to execute. And it sounds like you said there's no shortcut, there's putting in the work of executing it a time and time again over your whole career. But how do we think about that to give advice to like younger people coming up, or you know, if you were coaching someone, like, how do you start that ball rolling? Like, you know, because maybe it started when you were young, but like if you were working with someone who is young and wanted to make sure that when they're capable of something, they actually do it. How do you how do you get that ball going?

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Um well, I think first of all, the the work isn't really in the execution. I think the work is in showing up even though you're afraid and even though you feel doubtful, and even though you feel insecure is like, I think that, you know, people need to give themselves a lot of credit, especially young climbers who are really hungry for success and achievement. You know, showing up when you're afraid and when you feel doubt is that's a win already. Showing up, booting up, chalking up, tying in whatever, and getting on the wall and trying hard, even though you feel like there is some risk to trying hard, like there's some big potential hit to your ego or whatever, or to your, you know, physical safety, that's a huge win already. You showed up, you you put your matter against the wall. That's really all you can do. And I think if you want it bad enough, you will see it through. And if you don't see it through, then you know, there are just other things in your life that required more attention, or you didn't you just didn't want it bad enough. I think that I got so lucky because, you know, when I kind of began my journey of of trying hard on climbs and projecting and just like pushing myself, I had that pure unadulterated motivation of a young person, of, of a, you know, of an adolescent, of a teenager, whatever, that like it's just when you grow up, you have more reasons to doubt yourself. And I think that's, you know, that's something that I deal with a lot more now is facing this doubt and putting the uncertainty aside. And I feel like the weight of the uncertainty is a lot heavier than it was when I was when I was young. But I think, you know, there's so much more pressure. I feel like for me it was easy because there were fewer when I was really young, I had fewer reference points that told me I wasn't good enough. And I think it's so hard now because young people have so many reference points that are just so insanely high. You know, it's like the level, even with children, is so high. And people know that, you know, these kids, they're on social media, they know how high the level is, and I think that it's really easy to use those reference points as a way to put yourself down and like compare yourself to whatever it is your goals are before you even get there, you know. And I think for me, it's like we grew up in a time before social media, you know, before there were so many reference points out there telling us we were lesser. And so it was just easy to show up to climbs with, you know, less doubt and less imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

It's brutal seeing a headline where it's like, I'm like making this up, but if I'm if I'm far off, I'd be surprised. It's like new uh 15A uh youngest ascent is like 13 or something. You know, you're just and so if you are starting to climb and you're like, wow, this 11A really hard. I'm screwing my head off to get an 11A, like in this kind, you know, this other kid who's like my age is doing literally world-class stuff.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Well, I was just I was thinking about being 12 and hearing that the kid that the other 11 or 12-year-old David Marquez from Colorado, who was like our main competition on the youth circuit for years, had climbed the beast, 13A and rifle when he was before he was even 12.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

I think that's my story, by the way. Yeah, go on. Sorry, go on. But that was literally what I was thinking of when we were talking about.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

I mean, we were we were in the same region, we were the exact basically the exact same age, we heard the same stuff. And I think, you know, for us though, the difference was we weren't that far away from where David was. You know, David was David had sent 13A uh outside, and he was, you know, he wasn't actually the youngest person because history forgot that, you know, Chris Linder climbed 13A when he was nine years old. But anyway, whatever. Like we thought we thought David Marquez was the youngest person ever to climb 13A, or at least in the States, and but we were like, we were climbing 13A in the gym already. Like we knew that we weren't that far away from the top level of our age group. But now kids, like you said, it's like, dude, if you're not climbing 14 plus, like if you're if you're a young teenager and you're not climbing 14 plus, you know what the gap is between your performance and the and the top level, you know? And I just think that like it's really inspiring. I think you you started, you might have started on like the national circuit like one year before I did. So I think maybe but I think it's like when you and I got to regionals and nationals, maybe my very first regionals was like, whoa, there are kids here that are way, way stronger than me, you know, way, way better. But I think once I got to my first nationals, I was like, okay, there are some older teenagers who are doing moves on this bouldering wall that I can't really do. You know, Johnny Goikucchia was like campusing on like single pad monas or whatever, like warming up for nationals. And I was like, holy crap, that's insane. But I think that once we got on the wall, I could see that, oh, the gap between me and the best performers ever. That this entire youth nationals is not that big. And I think that, you know, kids nowadays, you know, they're doing their local comps. Maybe there's a couple kids that are really strong and they're at their gym, and then they get to regionals or divisionals or whatever, and they're like, holy shit, like the level is already just insane.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Yeah, my memory is of David Marquez beating me in nationals by one hold. And to be honest, I had skated through regionals and stuff, and everything seemed easy. And I was like, oh, here's someone who's good. And then that summer I went to rifle, had heard he had done the beast, and I had done 12D before. And I was like, oh, here's a 13A, he can do it, I can do it. And I couldn't do it. Broke my heart. Um, yeah, couldn't do it. Uh and I was like 12.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Was that the summer of 1998 or 1997?

SPEAKER_00 44:49

I think I think it was 96 or 97, dude. I think it was 97, maybe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Because I think he had climbed it maybe the year before I did in 97. And then I went to my first youth nationals at Rockin' and Jammin' in Denver. And I I think I I topped our finals route and Dave fell on this on the last move or whatever. So I just I barely won. Um and I think I think that it was like there was pro it was probably a little easier for me because he was just the favorite, you know, like he was the one that everyone expected to win. And so it was like he felt more pressure to to perform. But I remember like my dad drove my brother, my half brother and I to rifle straight after Nationals, and I was we just went straight to the wasteland, straight to the beast. I did it in two days, but it was like, I was like, whoa, this is crazy. Like I had to come up with all this crazy beta, you know. We were tiny back then, and you know, whether we had the span to do it the normal way or not, we were like, oh, this beta, we have to do this crazy rose move beta. You remember that?

SPEAKER_00 45:57

You probably shit. Yeah, that dude, uh, you just took me back. Uh God, I love I love climbing when you're a little kid, especially outdoors and making up all these new betas to in the most convoluted, you would like hand foot match to do just crazy high steps, grab nothing holes just to make it work. And I don't think I really understood at the time that if I could keep that type of openness to movement and then enacting it as well, it's like, oh, you're gonna climb really hard because that is what top-level movement is. It's just look, you're you're you're four foot four, um, you know, like you, you can't, you're not very strong compared to what you'll be when you're an adult. And boy, is climbing when you have a really small, underdeveloped body really good for understanding movement, understanding what is possible. And then when you take it to the adult stage, I feel like that's one of the secrets for kid crushers who then go on to climb really, really hard.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah, I mean, it forces, I think starting when you're tiny, it really forces you to be more creative. And it also just forces you to do enormous moves, you know. It forces you to jump, it forces you to dyno, it forces you to use every inch of your height and your vertical reach, you know. And I feel like I I see a lot of really tall people who learn to climb in adulthood, and they're just getting their feet so much higher than they need to, and you know, they just don't they don't even know how long their body is. Or maybe it just takes it takes longer for them to understand like their physical dimensions. But yeah, I mean, I feel, you know, I feel so I'm sure you do too. Just feel so lucky that you learned to climb at such an early age, and it just like it informed your movement repertoire so much.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Uh I remember trying to do warp factor at 11 or 12, which was also a 13A, and that last move to the potato, I would just get there and I couldn't, I could like physically, theoretically make the span, but you know, then I went back 20 years later, I was like, what was such a big deal? Actually, still a really hard route, surprisingly hard. Yeah, yeah. I I want to go back to what we were saying at the beginning about showing up, not having confidence, but still going for it. And you know, I think the really key thing that you said there was not just showing up without confidence, but then going at it or trying your hardest in the face of uncertainty. Like, and I think that is what kids have in spades. And then we went on about how like maybe less uh now when they maybe can feel embarrassed because they're comparing themselves to someone who's climbed 15A when they were, you know, 12 years old or whatever. Uh and I just like that's the thing that I have always wanted to grab onto, but then sometimes I lose it as I get older and I compare myself to like my previous self. And like just that freeness to just really try as hard as you can, whatever the grade, whatever the risk, whoever's watching, whoever you actually feel inside, whether you're certain or uncertain. And like I feel like that is an important component to really get into that execution, like you were talking about.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Yeah, I mean, that might be the the good to great aspect too. I know that you that you wanted to save that one for for later on or whatever, but um No, no, it it's it's the podcast is about you, not about the question. I I I think I I relate really strongly to what you said about not just comparing yourself to other people. I mean, like the story in my head is you know, like I said earlier, especially in just in the discipline of bouldering, board climbing, like my strength is not even close to the top end, you know, like what uh what I see some of our friends, Austin, you know, the Wheelers, um, Adam, people in that category, what I see them doing on the boards, I'm like, that's that's just another level that I don't possess. I mean, I'm not saying that I can't climb some of those climbs if I put in the work, but right now I'm not putting in the work and I I don't have that sort of level. So I think it's it's I relate strongly to the phenomenon of you know using other people's successes and abilities and strength as like a negative ref reference point against myself. But I also, you know, use my past successes and strength and ability as a negative reference point against myself. But I think that like it doesn't stop me from dreaming, it doesn't stop me from imagining myself climbing these super limit climbs. And when I show up to the climbs, I'm not really consciously telling myself that that story of negativity and doubt and imposter syndrome or whatever. I'm just like, I'm just so curious, you know? It's like that curiosity piece takes over again, and I'm in front of the climb, I'm inspired, I'm like, wow, this is so beautiful and so hard. I just want to try it, you know, and and even if I suck for a while, I'm usually, I mean, I think sometimes with bouldering I'm not having that much fun, but a lot of the time I still am having fun. And um, and it's fun to feel like you have to try really hard, physically, emotionally, psychologically, whatever, to bridge that gap between the sort of reality of where you are and the inspiration or the fantasy of where you could be if you

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SPEAKER_01 51:43

put in the work.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who help make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else. And those episodes are ad-free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay, back to the pod. To be honest, I think most of the fun for me in climbing, other than hanging out with my friends and traveling to really cool places, is the trying hard. Like when it really comes down to it, I love just really digging deep. And I think that's why limit stuff is so fun, is because it requires literally everything, but then it has to be something that draws it out of you. And that's where like that idea of dreaming or being excited, and sometimes I'll talk myself out of going to climbs because I think they're gonna be too hard, and then I'll go there and I get that kind of curiosity, that kind of like pull and all that other negativity. Just I just don't think it's like, why would I think about that? I'm just in front of a cool boulder, and I like you know, having that draw that then brings it out of me, you know. Um, I

What It Means To Be A Professional Climber and Finding Inspiration In Your Climbing

SPEAKER_00 53:02

want to touch on that idea of board climbing being at a wild level and seeing people do incredible things that is in this kind of specific domain, indoors, on boards. And if I remember correctly, we would have a hard time even getting you to session on boards like me and Max and Mark would be on like our little plexi, and you'd be like, Oh, I'm not gonna board climb with you guys. Screw board climbing. Uh and what I was talking to Mark about is how there's very few people in the world now that spend as much time just climbing outdoors as someone like you as a professional climber. Although, actually, maybe even nowadays, professional climbers maybe are on the boards a lot. Um, what do you think about just that era or what it means to be a professional climber as far as just time spent outdoors, which maybe is not as common as it used to be?

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Yeah, I mean, you you you actually asked about some version of this question in the first question that we touched on in this uh in this interview an hour ago now. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot about just my place as a professional climber and and what that means. And I think, you know, like I've already established, I'm not even close to the top level in terms of strength and and bouldering ability and stuff, but do any more.

SPEAKER_00 54:31

You should say any more. Sorry, anymore. Anymore. Well, like But it's not because you're not still crushing, it's just damn are there's some strong kids out there.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

Even 20 years ago, you know, I I was still having like I was already having a lot of success in climbing, but I would go to comps and I would see the kind of finger strength and power and sort of lock-off strength that people like Daniel and Paul had, and I would compare myself to that. And I would be like, yeah, no, like the level is is a lot higher than you know, um than what I have. And I've I've kind of always felt like that in terms of just like that really straightforward board style climbing. But um, but I think even though I'm not close to being the best boulderer in the world, do I think that that means that I shouldn't have a professional climbing career? No. I mean, I think that like I'm doing something different than what other people are. I mean, I think that you, you know, you said at the beginning of this conversation, basically, like you're still relevant, even though you've been in the game for a long time, even though you're not, you know, climbing V17 or whatever. Um, I think a lot of a lot of it is like the privilege of time that I have and how much freedom that that grants me to explore all these different disciplines, you know, develop first ascents, go to a lot of different places and and climb on these really unique challenges. Like I'm not, you know, board training for one or two or three months at a time and then going on like a two-week trip to some faraway land to project one V17. I'm like, I'm I'm following my motivation from one project to another, and you know, I'm I'm aware of the fact that that's not going to last forever, but that's just what motivates me. And I think that like, I don't know, I I mean I don't feel like I need to climb V-17 to, I guess to be relevant, but also just to inspire people and to share my experience, which is multifaceted. You know, I'm like, I'm I'm a pro climber who is really lucky in that I get to travel a lot, or at least I have gotten to travel a lot in my life, and to try a lot of different types of climbs and to share those experiences with people, but I'm also someone who is relatable and approachable and someone who just genuinely loves connecting with people. And I think that as long as you inspire people, then and you, you know, I don't know. I I feel like being a pro climber is it's as much about sending hard climbs as it is about exploiting a niche, as sad as that sounds, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 57:20

Exploiting. You'll have to say exploiting. You can just say finding it.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

Or just like, you know, just um okay, we can use some other word than exploiting, let's say working in or uh whatever. I mean, it's like, you know, I'm doing something different than other people, and I'm also I'm sharing my experiences what on and off the rock in a way that I think people find relatable and and you know, maybe even sometimes make people feel less alone. And I mean, I think that's to me that feels just as important, if not more important, than sending the next project or pursuing the next goal or whatever. Um I mean, I think that like my life's work is what like the you know, the things that I want to be known for at this point in my career are so much less about climbing X, Y, and Z and so much more about sharing my personal experience and sharing my heart with people. And I mean, I think that, you know, the climbing is is one point at which people can connect with me and relate to me and and feel inspired by what I'm doing. Um, but I think that, you know, sharing my humanity is is just as much um a part of my my career as as climbing is.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

Being able to be authentic consistently and online. I mean, you've always killed the Instagram game, and I think it's because you're just doing it as yourself. Uh and I I'm curious how that has come through in your climbing as well, where like you seem to be congruent in your who you share yourself on Instagram or or podcasts. And then you know you do follow your inspiration in climbing. And I kind of want to understand better where that came from, how you've expressed yourself physically that is congruent with who you are emotionally and openly on Instagram as well. You know, so I'm sorry, I'm I'm making you talk about the climbing, even though you just told me that you're like, it's more, it's about more than just the climbing. But I'm curious how that because I think that the thread there is important, that like it it's congruent between those things versus just like if it's somehow doesn't make sense, people can smell that and they're like, that's not you out there. You're just doing that because of the grade or because of this picture or wherever the case may be.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Um yeah, I mean, I think I think choosing climbing challenges that that scare me a little bit, either because there's some element of um risk or because there's some element of potential failure. Um I mean, I think that I want to I want to I want to choose projects that aren't a guarantee and that I feel like put me in a position of vulnerability because that's what challenges me the most. You know, we both love deep water soloing, and I've always wanted to, you know, for instance, go to the New River Gorge to try a bunch of these sport routes that, you know, have water landings in the spring and summer, and I got to do that for a month this spring, and it was just I had so many peak experiences there, like so many of these, like, these experiences that as climbers we just like chase. And I I actually had so many of them in the span of like three or four weeks that I felt fucking exhausted by the end of it, you know, just being in that in that hyper alert state so many times for so many days, I felt like, yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe maybe my whole life is some sort of variation of that hyper alert state, and that's something to I mean, that's something that is gonna change very soon with the I mean I know you're in a hyper alert state of different hyper alert state of different sorts, but you're thinking you're caring for another human being, and so it feels like you're putting your energy into something else. But yeah, I mean I I feel like I've I've always been so lucky that I have been inspired by such a variety of climbing challenges. I just I I just I look at a rock and I don't think, oh, this isn't my style, or I'm too afraid to try this because I might get shut down, or this feels like an intimidating project because it's in this discipline that I don't have any experience in. I just I look up at a at a line that I feel inspired and intimidated by and I just want to try it so bad, you know, and I think that like that has made me sort of an unspecialized athlete. Like I'm I'm a bit of a jack of all trades, I guess, and maybe a master of none, but um, but I think that it's just what keeps climbing fresh for me. If if all I ever did was boulder, I would have been burnt out so long ago, you know. And I don't I don't really know how the climbing is tied to like matters of the heart and the things that feel most important for me to share with with the general public. Um but I don't know, there's probably some connection there. I mean, I think that film Strength to Wait did try to do that that thread justice.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

I mean my thing is just that if you're just telling the truth with yourself out there humanity-wise, but then if you're just telling the truth with your climbing, like that's the whole point. But I I think it's harder than it sounds to even know what you're inspired by. Like in in some ways, like I think that I don't know, you get you can get influenced by seeing a bunch of videos and seeing a bunch of stuff, hearing people talk about it, but it doesn't always happen that you have that spark and then you're willing to chase it. And yeah, I'm kind of curious what were some of the the pictures or books or things that you saw when you were a kid that kind of you still remember to this day that kind of lit a fire for you to go and go around the the world. Because I mean, you grew up in the city, man, you know, like but then you've done all sorts of, I mean, like expedition level things as well as bouldering, all the the that whole spectrum. And yeah, what was it that kind of lit that fire when you were really young that you have just followed authentically your whole life?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

I mean, I think like growing up in the era of climbing in rock and ice, and I don't know, it's it's actually it's a it's a trip to think about how much more it takes for me to look at a piece of climbing media, whether it's a picture or a video, and feel inspired by it. I mean, when we were when we were starting out climbing, we'd open, we'd we'd see the cover of rock and ice, and yeah, you know, sometimes the photos were a little like cheesy looking or staged or whatever, and then they wouldn't feel as inspiring, but then we'd flip open the magazine and we'd read about who was doing what, and maybe there'd be like a maybe there'd be like a crappy photo of, you know, whatever, Eric Scully in the tanks or you know, Francois Legrand in France, and sometimes the photos were good, but often they were crappy, but you would just read these stories about who was doing what, and you were like, wow, you know, the level. And I'm sure that's how kids today feel, but I feel like we're just inundated with so much media. It's just so easy to be like, oh, another V14 send, another like I don't even it's like I don't even care to watch all the videos that come across my my feed now. And it's actually kind of sad. Like I feel like my motivation for climbing, I mean it's it's it's not a bad thing, but it's just so much more intrinsic. It's like I have to go out and see something. And of course, there are climbs out there in the world that that I've never laid eyes on that I would love to go and see and go and try, and you know, these mythical boulders or routes or whatever, but I don't necessarily want to go try them. I mean, I every once in a while I see a video of something that I'm like, damn, I want to try that. That looks freaking sick. Like, of course, there are you know, I have a list in my head of things that I'd love to go try, but there's just so many, you know, I just know that I'm not gonna get to them all. But when we were 12, I think that there wasn't this like, oh, I'm not gonna get to them all idea. And it was like, we could do anything we want, you know. I mean, I at least, you know, I I feel privileged and lucky enough to have thought that, at least for some of my career.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

There's so much uh media and it's so loud that uh I struggle to consume it all. Like it's almost like it's too much. Of a fire hose. I'm yeah, I kind of do miss the idea that I could wrap my head around everything that was available for me. And then I would just read those magazines over and over again. But yeah, it's so ridiculous because if you were to tell 12-year-old Ethan or Josh that there was too much climbing media, you'd be like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm sick of this. I've read this magazine 30 times because it's been 30 days since the last issue came out. Uh, but I would argue that there must still be some kind of quiet whisper when people watch things or listen to things or read things or see a picture that like they can probably find their inspiration. And for for me, it's like it's the beginning of like a really fun story. So two of my favorite climbs in life were evolution, and I had walked by, I didn't know what it was. Um, someone told me about it. I finally got Wi-Fi at you know black sheep or something. And no, it wasn't black, it was like a loony bean, I think black sheep. And I watched that video of it, you know, being done by Jason. I was just like, damn, I want to do that. And it was like a journey for me. The other one was a picture. I told you I was going to Mallorca. This was like 2009 or 10, and you sent me a picture of you on La Ostia, and it took me a few times to even go find it and then to try it, and then another trip to do it. And it was just, if I hadn't have had that kernel to start me down that path, um, and I was somehow just utterly captivated by that picture of you on there. And you know, like I think that like if you listen, there there's somehow some kind of media or some kind of picture that can spark that inspiration. I feel like that's important if you want to be a professional too. It's like, what gets you going? Like what actually gets you out of bed, makes you train, makes you fly across the world, extend your trip, come back again next year. You know, uh I feel like there's something important there.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:59

What gets me out of bed, what gets me to the rocks several hours earlier than it seems like anyone in South Lake Tahoe wants to get there, um, is is just this idea of curiosity about what I'm capable of. You know, I think that like I still it's it's funny, it's like when I think when I really think about what am I gonna do tomorrow, I'm probably gonna go rope solo equanimity in the morning. Why? Well, because I these you know, this younger generation, and some of my contemporaries, of course, like Jimmy and stuff, they're the heroes that I look up to now, and they're all climbing this beautiful aesthetic line that is so inspiring to me. And I have the same curiosity now than I had when I was, you know, 13, 14, 15 when we were starting a sport climb, which is can I do that? You know, like can can like my heroes all did that. Can I do that? And and you go and you find out, and and sometimes the answer is, you know, today is not the day, this week, this month isn't, you know, it's just not the time right now. Come back later when the planets are more aligned or when you feel stronger or whatever. And sometimes it's oh wow, I can do this right now. Like maybe I'm not gonna do it right now, but I think that that idea of, oh, I can do this, is the idea that we're always chasing is just like taking a bite of the carrot and imagining eating the whole thing, and then you're like, wow. Like that's I think that's the most important or like the most exciting phase in the process of projecting is that moment you realize that you're capable of doing something. It's not actually oftentimes it's not actually the send. It's that moment where you're like, oh, the switch just flipped and I know I can do this now, you know. I think the time, the time between that moment and when you are clipping the chains or standing on top or whatever is can, depending on how long it lasts, can be like, you know, the most torturous part of your life or your career or whatever. If it lasts for, you know, an hour or a week or a year or a decade. Um I think it can be like that's I think that's really where you find out what type of climber you are, is in that that period of time between, oh, I can do this and I've done it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:17

I gotta tell you, that's actually probably the gap that has made it clear that I was never cut out to be a professional is that I get that little dopamine where I'm like, oh, I can do this. And I'm like, ah, do I really want to like do this? Like, yeah, it's gonna be like a lot of work. Um something that I always found interesting when you do go to these climbs that you've seen videos or pictures of and you want to test yourself against how often moves felt easy for me that looked hard, and easy parts that I found hard, and just being able to like acknowledge that uh you know you shouldn't buy too much into what experience other people you see are having and just kind of go and kind of have uh a little bit of a blank slate. And

Why You Should Never Stop Refining Beta

SPEAKER_00 1:11:02

that made me think of this like YouTube short or Instagram I saw of you, and it was something about you saying like there's always better beta. And I just wanted to touch on that again because I don't even remember what the video said, but I just thought that was like such an interesting idea. And I wanted to like unpack it a little bit and also understand like when do you stop searching for better beta? Like, how do you know when to like not refine something more? How do you know when something needs more refinement, even if it's not the crux, but to like set you up to be more fresh for the crux? Or what did you mean by there's always better beta?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:41

To answer your question of when are you done refining beta? I'm never done refining beta. I'm always sending things because I'm making a ninth inning beta change. Always, you know? Like um, I think that there are some things that are close enough to my limit where, okay, I've learned a lot of tricks. Like I've I've tried monkey wedding, which feels very anti-style for me in Rocklands for like two and a half seasons now. And I discovered new beta in my third season. I mean, I still haven't done it, but I'm I'm still figuring out more efficient ways to to climb it. And of course, you know, people who's who have have the margin don't need to do that. But I think if you're trying something that's truly close to your limit, which I think a lot of really, really high-end climbers aren't necessarily trying. I mean, if if you see the speed at which the top performers in our sport are sending the hardest climbs that we have, you can understand that they aren't climbing at their limit. I mean, even Jakob sending DNA in 30 days, like, dude, that's not his limit. You know? Talk to me when you've tried something for a hundred days. Like, talk to me when you've gone through like the Martin Keller process. I mean, you know, I think it's like um I I think that like I think Dave is is someone who is like very, very proficient in in like the mastery of of beta and movement and stuff. Dave Graham, we're talking about Dave Graham. He he calls he calls the the best beta the master beta, which I think is kind of a funny and um but very very appropriate term. Um but I think if you haven't yet found the master beta, which I guess you can't really know that you have or not, but until you have spent seasons on a project trying to make it more efficient and find tricks and stuff, then you haven't found something that's close to your limit. But I think that like people give up on the practice of going back and looking for new beta way too quickly. Way too quickly. Like I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that I see climbers making is they come into a climbing challenge with the assumption that they either have the physical strength to do it or they don't have the physical strength to do it. And it's really this like mistakenly binary way of thinking, and I think it really informs people's climbing practice to to their detriment, you know. It's like people they look up at a climb and they they judge their strength against it before they even try it, you know? Um, which is something that you don't really see pro climbers doing very often.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:34

But I'm so guilty of doing that. I all all of my like even hardest sends I've often done in like 15 minutes or something. Like it was like either I could do it or I couldn't do it. Waco is like that, uh, where it felt so binary, I just knew I could do something, I would just do it. Um, but the only hints that I've gotten where there's a lot more for me to go is that sometimes I'll not be able to do a move, and then I don't even change my beta in the sense of my feet and hands, and it will just feel miles easier. And I'm just like, wow, like I don't really know what's going on here. Like there's so many levels that I have not peeled back. And yeah, it's just something that I don't know, I feel like I want this endpoint, like this idea of when do you stop refining it? It's like, well, you know, like if I don't feel like it holds me back from the crux, or nothing is worse than falling on supposedly easy moves at the end of something because you you had rehearsed it and done it the powerful way because you're like, oh, I'll just do it. Like, I mean, you just do it. Like, this holds not bad. And then you're like, oh no, I'm completely wrecked right now. I can't just do it. And uh, it's a lesson I feel like I I keep I keep learning.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:50

Same. I mean, I've I've I've always been, I think I've always been a uh maybe not always, but especially in bouldering and really hard sport routes, I've always been someone who's relied pretty heavily on like finding really efficient ways to to to move and really like beta that works really good for my body. Um I think that that's like one of my greatest skills in climbing. And um, I mean, it's still even even having having that be such a big part of my my repertoire in climbing, I'm still this is still a lesson I'm relearning. I mean, when I went and tried El Bon Combat with Felipe, you know, we were beating our heads against that climb for five or six weeks, and the crux was the part of the route that felt like it was the most unpleasant and didn't fit with my body. And then, you know, I would, I would, every couple days, I would fall there again from the ground and be like, oh God, like, is there really no better beta here? And I would spend five or ten minutes tinkering with different feet, different grip positions, different, slightly different hand sequences, not finding anything. It wasn't until I had already been trying trying to climb for a month that I found beta that even after stopping there numerous times to try different things, like I really had to spend time there. And then I tried something that seemed a little bit less intuitive with a slightly smaller foot, but it fit my body so much better. And it, you know, the unpleasantness of that crux disappeared. It it felt like a move that was actually fun for me, that was more consistent, that I enjoyed more, and that fit my body better. But sometimes it just takes like a lot of patience, you know? And I feel like the best outdoor boulderers who are really good at sticking with projects for a really long time, they are so good at exercising that bit of patience where they can really sit with a sequence. I mean, I know some people don't really need to, and it becomes more about like conditions and just time, you know, time on the wall and conditions and and luck. But I think that there are people I'm thinking of like, you know, Aiden Roberts, like he's, you know, just a lot of people out there, Dave, other people who who are like good at sticking with boulder projects for a really long time, like they know the importance and the value of that having that patience and being able to go back again and again and look for look for more efficient ways to do stuff. But I mean, yeah, we're we're so in the weeds now.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:19

I feel like perfect. Um something I think is really strange about our sport is that when gosh, we'll see if maybe I'll edit this out. Um, like when I was talking to Mark Heel about you, he said something about how like how great you are at refining beta and then executing, and then kind of like the quiet part is like even though Ethan isn't as strong as some of these guys, he gets it done. And honestly, sorry, Mark, you're you're kind of similar where Mark was not historically unbelievably strong, but damn, is he a good climber? But what we often say is like somehow we put the strength on a pedestal when we talk about people, it's almost like, shouldn't we be lionizing or showcasing people like Dave Graham more where it's like, dude, this guy's climbing IQ and ability to get every ounce of whatever physical ability he has in that moment is off the charts. Like, isn't that climbing? Like, isn't that what we should put on the pedestal? Versus like, wow, like those fingers are so strong, they don't even have to wait for good conditions, whoever, you know, we're pointing to at that time.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:28

Yeah, I mean, I think that like there are um elements of of both archetypes that are impressive, you know. I think I think the real ones know that Dave is Dave is like a true wizard. And I think like, you know, also you see videos of Noah and Colin and these like board crushers, you know, tons of tons of women, Shauna. I mean, you see, I see videos of stuff Yanya's doing on the wall, and I'm just like, I'll never do that, you know. And I think that there's, you know, there are elements of of both strategies that are impressive. I think what I'm curious about is when these people who are insanely strong and who are sending the hardest boulders in the world, when they buckle down and they have to use more wizardry and more tricks and more sort of like time, time in front of the wall and that patience element to to I mean, you know, you see Aiden, he's he's he's a standout example of someone who is at that level and is also putting in the time on these insanely hard projects. But I think a lot of people, you know, they're just like, oh, I just like I just want to be stronger so I can go to burden and send it in half the time or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:40

I think the hard part is that in some ways strength gives you this ego almost like you have the right to send. Like you're like, I'm strong, and it's it's hard when you get shut down to like put your desire to try harder aside. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:57

I see people I see people who are like of that sort of mutant caliber going to things that they know that they should have the physical ability to send, and for whatever whatever reason they're not sending and they're like getting super frustrated. I mean, I think that like whenever there's a mismatch between expectations and reality, then frustration is you know is probably bound to to develop. But I think, you know, for someone like me, my default is always that it's gonna be hard and that I'm gonna have to put in work, and so my expectation is n is sometimes though, I I I show up to climbs with a preconceived notion. Like I thought, I mean, you know, I got to I went to equanimity yesterday, which is kind of like a power tech problem with really shitty feet. And I got there and I looked at the bottom of the wall where you kind of start up that ramp, and I was like, oh my god, these feet are non-existent. These feet are so much worse than I even thought they were, and the holds are a bit further apart, and I was like, okay. I thought this V15 might only be V12, but it's looking pretty V15 now. And then I got on the wall, and sure enough, I was like, Whoo! It's hard. It was like we didn't have very much time before the sun came, but I mean I still show up to things with some preconceived notion that I might that it might suit me really well, or that I might get lucky, or that I might, you know, but then it's like sometimes, you know, the conditions are way worse than you thought, or maybe you don't even realize that the conditions are affecting you, or whatever. I mean, to how hear Alex Magus from 10 years ago put it, there are no bad conditions, only only weakness, which I'm like, I wonder if he's I wonder if he's rethought, uh re-examined that that's I'd like to hear, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:38

I'm curious about that too. Just dripping in blood and tape in the sun doing like lucid dreaming. You're like, Alan, maybe he's onto something actually.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:46

Yeah, Alex, comment, comment below. What do you think? Are there are there are there bad conditions or not?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:53

I I mean, I think this all ties back to what I think you were saying earlier about just showing up and trying really hard and being curious and having fun. Like all that stuff just gets in the way for me time and time again. And I just, yeah, almost missed the the 10-year-old or 11-year-old me of just like, I don't know, man, I didn't care how hard. I was willing to scream my head off on a warm-up of five nine because it was like a blank section. I had no preconceived notions. I was just balls to the wall as hard as I could, recklessly, always. And still think that's like a really important. I think I think that's a necessary component for how you go from good to great. That's my how you go from good to crazy. You have to be just going for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:35

Being able to try hard is by far the most important skill in climbing. There's nothing that can substitute it. I think a willingness to try hard and also probably be observed by other people trying hard is the thing that you need to climb anywhere close to your limit. I mean, I think there's not a single pro climber out there who feels embarrassed or self-conscious about. I mean, I guess there are there I well, I shouldn't say that. There's probably a lot of pro climbers who feel embarrassed or self-conscious about being seen trying hard in a crowd or whatever. Um, but I think that you do it anyway, you know, and you and you you have that gear because you want it so bad. Like you enjoy the tryhard is is the enjoyable part. The difficulty is the enjoyable part. That's why you keep showing up. And I think that like the climber's biggest limitation by far, just universally, is that they give up too easily.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:32

Look, I got a little good to grade out of you. Uh so you are flying back to South Africa in a few days for your impending fatherhood.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:42

I actually I extended my trip here. I extended my departure by a week. Did I tell you I might do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:47

No, but dude, like I think every single trip I've ever been on with you, you have extended it's like the pro you guys should just not buy tickets back until like the day of because it's always an extension. It's always a little more time.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:02

I feel very lucky and privileged that I'm in a position to be able to do that like ever, let alone like you know, every other trip I go on. So I mean, huge shout out to my wife, Katie. She is like, yeah. I mean, I think that she she knows that there's a lot of reasons why um why it I guess should be okay for me to leave my my six-month pregnant wife at home for one more week. I mean, it sounds bad. It does, it sounds doesn't sound great.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:31

I was in Mallorca for for weeks, uh just drinking too much. It's a dude moon. You gotta a dude moon is something we enjoyed.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:38

Was just pregnant when you were in Mallorca?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:40

Oh, dude, she was like eight months pregnant or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:42

Okay, well that makes me feel better. I mean, Charlie, Charlie Schreiber arrived home like two or one day or something before his uh his baby was born.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:53

I should not be the bar that you uh hold yourself to where I was in Mallorca drinking with you, watching you on Espontus. Maybe you weren't drinking. I was definitely drinking. And my wife was like eight months pregnant, and somehow we convinced all of our friends or all of our wives who we all had babies on the way, that we had to do one last hurrah, as you uh, you know, named that recent deep bar saw you did, to do what we called a dude moon. So somehow we needed to like go climbing in Europe. I don't know how that worked out, but that I'm putting that out into the ether there.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:28

You guys should all do dude moons and have one last maybe not when your wife is eight months pregnant, maybe more like you know, maybe she was seven months pregnant.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:36

It was bad. It was it was inappropriate.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:39

Bad or good. I mean it it all worked out in the end. But I'm I'm I'm getting back, you know, three months, three months before before we're due. So I think I we have a we have a good margin.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:48

So uh when you head back, you have a house that you guys are setting up as a bouldering retreat in South Africa. You're also coaching. It can those go hand in hand if I came and visited, if someone came and stayed at the house you guys are setting up, will you also coach them?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:06

I'm super open to an arrangement like that. Yeah. Yeah. So we we actually Katie and I don't live full-time in Rocklands. We live in a town south of Cape Town called Musenberg, which coincidentally, or maybe not coincidentally, is where a lot of the local bouldering is. Like we can the the mountainside above our suburb, above our beach town, is um is like where Topside is. And Topside is kind of like the bouldering area that um that encompasses a ton of different like sub areas. But some of them we can walk to without getting in the car, which is which is insanely awesome. I mean, I can walk to Murta in 50 minutes from our apartment, and I can walk to that Nick Allen V15 or probably V V16 whiplash in almost the same amount of time. So I mean I can walk. to life lifelist boulder projects without getting in the car, which feels like truly special and and privileged. And I'm super grateful for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:10

Damn, dude. Yeah, no wonder you're an optimist. Just got good living. Wait, is you say by the beach, that when I hear musin, I can't remember what you said. That's that's not where that beach cookout big bry thing is. You know what I'm talking about? That awesome thing that is done when you're in South Africa?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:30

That's at Lambert's Bay, which is clear Rocklands. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:35

It's uh that's like that was called like Musin what there was some musin in the name of going to I think it's it's pronounced something like Moistboss Getum.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:43

Ooh look at you. Moistboss. But anyway, uh it's that's yeah the the place where the all you can eat fish fry is close to Rocklands and we're like we're three hours from Rocklands. Oh rough dude three hours.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:57

Three and a half hours or Dika dude geez.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:00

But yeah our um Katie's sister Sophie she's the one with the property in Rocklands and we yeah we get to we get to live there during Rockland season at least for some portion of the time and uh yeah I mean it's it's it's insanely idyllic. It's I think it's the best property in Rocklands. I mean it's right below the sport crag um like at the foot of this really steep mountainside and it's like at the edge of this beautiful valley where like a lot of the sort of Rocklands proper um properties are where a lot of people stay and it's just it's insanely beautiful. Every day you go outside and you're just like I can't believe that I get to even be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:44

But people can come and visit. And are you coaching? I know you're coaching now are you is it just in person or are you also doing like online coaching as well?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:53

I haven't really started coaching in earnest by the time I'll try to launch our website by the time this podcast airs how how long does it usually take what's your lag time a good couple of weeks maybe maybe a a week and a half I don't know okay well that's my goal then is to have Ethan Pringle coaching have the updated version of Ethan Pringle coaching that offers remote coaching services launched by the time this this podcast comes up. You better get it done before that that kid comes along man you got Oh yeah well if that if we don't get it done before three months from now then you know we got no excuses. But uh but yeah no I'm I'm I'm really psyched on doing some remote coaching. I mean I'll I'll be mostly in Cape Town for the next year so um I think doing in-person coaching is only a service that I can provide for people there. But we're hoping to host at least one retreat next year at Nama where um where our our little farm stay is and I think coaching is obviously gonna be a part of a retr a bouldering retreat that that we host but also you know just like local knowledge like where to go on what days and what areas kind of provide the best user experience for for whatever our group is um whatever abilities our group has and whatever kind of motivation they have and um yeah I mean it's like it's a beautiful property we're gonna have great local food um there's a wood fired hot tub you know there's like movie nights it's it's gonna be awesome. So yeah I hope I hope people sign up. I hope enough people sign up that we can host the retreat because I think it's like you know it's for me it's just like a way to share this place that's so special to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:45

I think people underestimate how nice it is to have I guess like a guide where it's like hey uh the weather is like this so let's head here and we should get here at this time because that stuff is in the shade and just knowing where to go when I mean in some ways you can't have a bad time in a place as with as many ubiquitous boulders as Rocklands, but you can have a better time. And you know uh why not you know have someone helping so just open the guide and being like this one um which I don't know still can't go too wrong there.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:17

Yeah I mean I think that it is like unless you get injured um which a lot of people who go there do uh because it's such a kind of hardcore area in terms of like the sort of strain on your connective tissue that it can it can like demand. I mean I think unless you get injured it's like it is pretty hard to have a bad time. I think some people show up with a lot of expectations because they see people just on these insane cendathons and then they show up and they're like oh I want to do this and this and they have this long tick list and maybe they don't accomplish quite as much of it as they they hope they would but um I think in general people have you know they come to Rocklands and they feel the magic of the place they get to climb these super special boulder problems and just experience the beauty and the community and stuff and and you know it you can have that whether or not you have a local guide but I think you it's more of a guarantee that you'll have like you know uh you'll make the most of your time at least with with the local guide.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:16

Gosh the thing that I always remember about Rocklands which is such a like funny minor part of it is I was out at Shosha Loza and had like a day where we did Shosha Loza. We did uh what's that unbelievably perfect splash of red pinotage Springbok like dude those are just all amazing climbs but then when we walked out it was nighttime and I just can't forget the stars. Like it was just it felt like a blanket of it felt like the sky was right right there and I just had never been in a place with no light pollution. Like you know even out here in Tahoe or you set you like you think you're out there but you're not there are tons of lights ruining that beautiful night sky and just I don't know go there if you're listening go there. It's fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:02

Yeah I I something I found out this year about the southern sky is that it's pointed towards the center of the Milky Way rather than away from it the the sky in the northern hemisphere like the sky that we see like obviously there's parts of the northern hemisphere where you're like holy shit the night sky is so pretty but in the southern hemisphere there's just a lot more like stars and galaxies and like heavenly bodies to look at and there's less light pollution so I think the stargazing in Rocklands is like it's it's top notch. Yeah and you know you're you're if you wait if you wait out there long enough you're bound to see some shooting stars which is also really rad.

What Holds Back Intermediate and Advanced Climbers

SPEAKER_01 1:34:38

Dude one thing I probably should have asked you uh but forgot to is what is like the one thing you see in you know intermediate or advanced climbers just time and time again you're just like damn guys like uh you should you should correct this like if you know put your coaching hat on and what's just the most common mistakes you see in someone who's like relatively experienced not a beginner but you know well I'll put a great on but you know intermediate advanced I mean I think I think two of the most common sort of behavioral patterns that I see um man there's just so many I mean where do I begin that's the best right there where do I begin I mean I think it's like okay for so for sport climbers I think that for like sort of intermediate to advanced sport climbers I just see a lot of people held back by fear and I think rather than making your climbing practice about sending a certain grade or or progressing in difficulty you need to focus on addressing the fear because if you don't do that you are just never going to climb even close to your limit ever. If you're if you're distracted by fear or you're like saying take every time you get pumped and uncomfortable and like a little bit scared I mean you're just you're holding yourself back so much. I think that's for sport climbers. I think universally climbers are all more capable than they think they are. I think what separates pro climbers from the rest of us is pros are just much more familiar with their abilities. But pro climbers still surprise themselves by sending stuff that they think that they won't on the day or whatever. Adamandra very familiar with his abilities like intermediate to advanced climbers just less familiar with their abilities. It's not like they are less able than Adamandra I mean some most of us probably aren't but um or are less able but I I think that the biggest difference between super expert climbers and everyone else is that they aren't held back but as much by the story about how good they are or how strong they are or how brave they are. I think that a lot of climbers, you know I I do I do quite I've done quite a few of these like pushing your limits on lead clinics for people. And the biggest thing that I see is just how limiting people's stories about themselves are you know oh I'm this is the grade of climber that I am I flashed this kind of grade once on top rope and this kind of grade once on lead and they're just so entrenched in the story. And the only way that you can change the story is by putting in the work but the work doesn't necessarily mean getting stronger. The work doesn't necessarily that could be part of the work but it doesn't matter how strong you are if you're distracted by fear or maybe sometimes in bouldering if you're distracted by expectation or by performance anxiety or whatever, you're just not tapping in, you're not even close to tapping into your true potential. So I think that like it's easy to just tell people stop saying take. Just stop it. Remove that word from your vocabulary go a muerte every time you get on the wall but I think that you know there need to there probably should be some intermediate steps. But I think that if people who are like really sort of held back by fear and distracted by fear and and you know not really pushing it, if they keep making their climbing practice about achieving a harder grade or sending this route or something, they're not paying attention to the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:01

That was so good too that was incredible. Damn that was good. Uh okay I'm gonna end it for the normal podcast there and transition us to those if you want to hear that QA and other extra behind the scenes content from this episode and others head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad-free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow, please share this episode with someone who would love it. Okay, see you next week