Board Talk #16 with Matt Fultz — The Benchmarking Process, The Brand New Core Board, and The “Harder” Version Of Hypnotized Minds

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It would be the hardest thing I've ever done by like a good margin. Uh so it's in that realm of difficulty for sure. And it's board style. It's like in the shoulders, it's tension, it's grimpy. I describe it right now like as it's like a hard version of hypnotize minds.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Welcome to the Test Piece Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Always good to have you on, man. But uh getting an actual board lord on board talk is always a great thing. Uh how are you doing, man?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Josh, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Um I'm excited to talk about board climbing.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Happy to be back, dude. Happy to be back. You were here before talking back.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

A little different.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Yeah. Yeah, Matt, I was uh, you know, prepping our outline, doing our stuff, you know, all the cool things that happened in the board world this month. And then I looked on your Instagram and well, a bunch of things happened. You were climbing on a hard uh project, which is what I was gonna talk about. But then you also just posted that you are having twins with your wife Haley. Congrats, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Absolutely, yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, a couple more board climbers come into the world, hopefully. I mean, we've already had that discussion. Like, how much am I gonna push them into climbing? And uh yeah, as of right now, it's like I might kind of push them into climbing.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Yeah, you're saying them because they're twins, man. Two boys. Two boys. Two boys. That's gonna be chaos. Yeah, that'll be awesome, amazing chaos, the best kind of chaos. Uh, I gotta tell you, I have a garage with a board, and I know you do too. It's a sweet, sweet 40-degree moon board. Right next to it is a 10-degree spray wall for the kids. You need to make sure that you build an accessible board for the kids.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

For sure. Yeah. No, I'll probably be coming to you for advice on that, you know, as they kind of develop. It's like when do they go from a like a ramp to like vert climbing? And then, like you said, they're at 10 degrees now, like they're they're climbing on seat already.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

I think that the 10 degree overhang is safer than the vert. Like, you can't, I don't know, like you fall onto the pads, right? Like, I don't know if that's true. It's just like how I envisioned it, and I just felt bad, like something about a vert wall. I don't know. I don't climb vert, man. I'm a board climber.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Well, Vert's lame, yeah. So I agree with that. No, oh, absolutely. That that makes total sense to me because when I climb on slab, I'm usually terrified.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Uh here's one other thing that's interesting about like young kids or yeah, young people, or like really young people climbing, is that jugs don't work as well as you think. It has to be like those kind of finger bucket flakes. Like jugs are like slopers for them because they can't, you know, get in there.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Your hands aren't big enough to get around. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

I also think that they do have climbing shoes, but in the house, they don't use climbing shoes because it's like it's literally like in my garage by the kitchen. So they're like, I'm going climbing, and they like run out. And this is just like in the middle of breakfast, or whenever I'm trying to get them to do real stuff, like get out the door, they're like, Well, I'm gonna go climbing. And I'm like, damn it, I love that, but we gotta go. Um, so they don't wear shoes. And although I can't imagine ever climbing without shoes at a high level, I think there might be something to that whole like Charles Albert, just like the strengthening of the feet, you know?

SPEAKER_00 4:05

They're they're barefoot Charlesing the board out there. Uh oh, for sure. I actually on my home wall, because it's it's my own personal board, I'll climb barefoot pretty often. In fact, uh in the in the summer, I'll I'll try and see how hard I can climb just barefoot. I'll have a whole barefoot session. It's been kind of fun training and uh yeah, like strengthening my toes, but often my my like my big toes start burning, and that's kind of how my sessions end.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Do you think it does give you this better understanding of how to grab even in shoes, like on steep climb, that kind of like feeling? I mean, like literally, if I'm on like a steep climb and I put my toe on some kind of incut, like I think about grabbing it. Like, I don't know what it actually is doing inside my shoe, but that's my mentality.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Sure, yeah, like you're kind of crimping with your big toe. I guess, I guess, in a way that that can work. I'm doing it because it's an extra challenge, like because it's a little bit harder. And so sometimes I like to do those things, like repeating boulders in my uh tennis shoes, or if it's on my home wall, uh repeating them barefoot or something, uh, just because it's an extra challenge, and I get to climb that boulder again, but in a new and uh different way. So uh it's kind of fun to do on the boards.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Yeah, that that's smart. I I like just that little switch up. Sometimes I'll do things like just trying to keep my my foot on for a move that I can't keep my foot on. And then I like the idea of taking it one step further. It's like, can you keep your foot on in tennis shoes? What about with no shoes?

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I uh I I used to climb in my tennis shoes all the time, and I'm trying to I'm trying to get back into that. I don't like the gym that I climb at is kind of like, is it okay to climb in your tennis shoes or not? Or like so um, but I I want to get back into that because it feels like kind of low-level campusing, like it's kind of that in between between climbing and campassing. It's like you're camping but with your feet.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Yeah, I like that. Low level campusing. Oh, yeah, I got yelled at the other day. I tried to warm up in my like just street shoes, and they were like, no, no, no, you come down.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Yeah, I think I'm just gonna keep climbing in my street shoes until I get yelled at, yeah, just like that.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

I do think that this idea of really using your feet must have some kind of good translation to just general ability. Because I I do the whole, I don't know, you know, like barefoot shoes, like zero drop. I don't know, like it's you could call it a fad or something, but I definitely noticed that my feet changed when I would go on walks in these like super minimal shoes. And it uh resonated with me because as a climber, I just feel like when I can get my hands on something, uh, you know, let's say I'm like hiking and it's like sketchy, and I'm like, oh well, I got this bucket here, like as I'm doing some sketchy step across. I know that if I slip, like my hands are strong. I just feel very connected because of that. And I would think that the feet work the same way. Like we, you know, we shove them in these shoes, it's a very narrow point of contact. But the idea of like having your feet be very active and gripping the ground, it must translate to better everything. I mean, I'm still gonna wear my my shoes on the on the wall, but I buy it. Like I believe Charles Halbert probably is more stable walking around in general than I am. I I would I would put money on that.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Yeah, oh, yeah, probably for me too. Yeah, so for your minimal shoes, are those like the toe shoes that uh have like the individual slots for your toes?

SPEAKER_02 7:33

I didn't go that far. I didn't want people to climb.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

I'd love to try climbing in those, actually.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

They have like vibrum and stuff. Oh, dude, we had some pretty viral uh clips of us talking about that that toe sack. What was it called? Like the UB sack for the big toe? Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Yeah, I remember that. It's like a rubber foot uh toe condom. Yes, yes, yeah, yes, the toe condom.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

I I I that was what we were all thinking, but um, I mean that's kind of like the extension of the idea. Just yeah, every little toe could have it, but I don't know. It's like I would like to have more time to experiment on this stuff, but you know, I don't know. I get out there, get to climb. I feel lucky to even have time to climb these days, so I'm just gonna keep shoving them into my little shoes and have fun. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, obviously 90% of the climbing I do is with like my climbing shoes. Uh, but yeah, I just like the idea of like mixing it up and adding a little extra challenges to the boulders and like you know, climbing barefoot or with tennis shoes on is a way to do that.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

Be careful climbing barefoot. I've wanna shout out their name, but just for uh sake of keeping their identity in case they don't want to share it with everyone. I do know someone who recently like popped their, I don't know what you would call it, they they popped a pulley with their big toe, but it wasn't a pulley, it was maybe like a lumbercole. They they really hurt themselves climbing barefoot and uh you know took them out for for a good chunk of time. So you can really get hurt doing it too.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Yeah, yeah, that actually doesn't surprise me. Uh it should come with a warning because yeah, I've had like sore feet afterward just from like you know digging in with my big toe and pulling in. Yeah, like a foot lumbricle. I don't know much about foot anatomy, but I imagine that we have lumbricals and uh they yeah, they get strained for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

I think he was in a boot for like six weeks or so, because then you can't bend it, you know. You like really need to like let it let it do its thing. Um I I was uh when I learned how to surf, I was in uh I was in college and in Santa Cruz and uh I was uh painting the dorms for like a summer job, and then I skipped my job and told them I was sick so I could surf because I really liked it. And I like just spent like five or six days doing it nonstop until I hopped off my surfboard one time, just kind of landed in the in the sand, didn't think anything of it, feet really cold. I was like, ooh, my feet, my toes feel like they're crossed. And I reached down and lift my my foot out of the water, and one of my toes, like I think it was the middle one, like fully dislocated, like underneath the other toes. And I just like remember looking at it, just kind of like putting it, you know, putting it back. Uh so I'm getting lightheaded. You think like not a big deal, right? But dude, it like wrecked me. I couldn't, yeah, like I couldn't work. Like I go into work the next day. I'm supposed to have been sick, and I'm like tan with a broken toe. And uh it really messed me up for like a while. You would think a tiny little toe wouldn't really be that big a deal, but um, yeah, just some kind of moral of the story there. Don't get hurt, never, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Ever. I mean, I've even gotten uh like foot flappers or like a flapper on my big toe before. I don't know if you've ever experienced that, but uh that like yeah, I mean I couldn't put my foot in a climbing shoe. It was like worse than a like a flapper on your finger trying to climb with that.

Matt’s Futuristic Project

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Uh dude, so yes, I did see that amazing story on your Instagram of you uh having kids coming along soon, but I also saw you on your project and you said something about it was like one of the hardest moves. It was a uh video of you doing well, one move. There was some other moves, but you said something like, This is one of the hardest moves I did, and it also looked very board style. I just wanted to hear more about this project you're on.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Oh, cool. Yeah, so uh I wasn't sure I I'm hesitant posting it a little bit, partly because I heard for the first time on this podcast that uh not everyone likes pre-spray or likes seeing Carlo.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Are we talking about Carlo?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Well, I just I'm just saying someone. There are people out there that don't like it. So uh um, but my issue is if I didn't post about boulders I I haven't done yet, then I will really wouldn't post at all because right now that's what I'm psyched on is is projecting above my limit and and trying just like the hardest boulders I can. And where I am at in life right now, where I want to be home, like here in in Idaho, uh supporting Haley and just staying connected with the the local community here. It's so nice to have a project that's also local, um, that I don't have to travel for and stay in an Airbnb and you know potentially be away from my wife for a couple weeks. It's just like really nice to be able to come home every night. So, anyway, all that to say, I'm enjoying po I'm enjoying trying this project and uh I'm enjoying posting about it and I like to share about it. And so that's my opinion on it, and I hope that other people like to see it too.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

But I'm pretty sure Carlo never listens to this podcast anyway. He may show up on the podcast, but well, at least not me on it.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah, he won't listen to this one specifically. He's not interested.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

I can't imagine what Carlo does in his off time is listen to climbing podcasts. That just that would crack me up, but we'll see. Carlo, let us know if you heard this.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Yeah, let us know, dude. Yeah, yeah. Tag me.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Well, uh, I I think that uh however you choose to climb and share your uh climbing is fine, especially unless unless you were somehow like this is the world's first V19 and you need to drink Red Bull. Like uh it was very clearly you you trying to um associate yourself with something crazy in order to to uh sell a product, maybe I feel a little different. Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Um no, just just uh like an update on on yeah, where where I'm at. Like I'm in good shape, I'm trying hard things. Uh this boulder, I think it would definitely, I mean, I don't even think it would be the hardest thing it ever I've ever done by like a good margin. Uh so it's in that realm of difficulty for sure. And it's board style, which is which I like, you know. I I like board style. It's like in the shoulders, it's tension, it's grimpy. I describe it right now like as it's like a hard version of hypnotize minds.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Oh my gosh. Yeah, a hard for I don't even know what that means. I thought hypnotized minds was just hard. I didn't know it's a hard, hard um uh really pretty looking project, too. Like I thought it looked good. Just that color, that red, the yeah, it's very flat, like a more a wavy, but um flat in that kind of I don't know what to say. You know, it's a it looks like a board, like flat in that sense, you know?

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Yeah, yeah. I mean it's beautiful. It it climbs up a 30 foot like red, brown, brownish red streak up uh up this giant feature. There's no other way up to the top. Like I literally haven't been to the top of the climb because you also you have to do like 10 or 15 feet of V0 like Waco climbing to get to the top. And uh I think that's also the way down. So I'm like, I'll just do that when I do it. Like I'll just do it when I do it. But uh yeah, and it's in a gorgeous location. Like it's hard with my iPhone to really capture like where it is uh and and like how it's set in uh within the scenery. But uh yeah, it's like such a cool place to be. I've reached out to some people to come like try with me, but I think it's kind of a tough sell. It's uh you know, kind of in the middle of nowhere. They'd have to come out and then try a boulder that's like really sharp and crimpy in the middle of nowhere with me. Kind of a tough sell.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Austin? Austin, are you listening?

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Dude, I I know Austin's psyched on everything, so uh I would love if he came out and tried it with me. I actually, he was like the first person I DM'd and said, dude, come like if you're free at all, like in the next couple months, come try it. But it seems like he's also super busy. So I can't if I can't even get Austin out here to try. I got no hope.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

If that guy doesn't like a new project, I don't know who does. That's he's just always frothing. Um, something that stood out to me that I found really interesting about the those moves is they're you're doing like this like subtle biking. You know, you had that like toe drag. And it's funny because I've been climbing a long time. Bicycling has been a move forever, but I feel like as time has gone on, it's become more of a thing. And uh I started using it a ton on boards for like tricky finishing moves, like where you, you know, you often only have like one foot and you want to like bike this little tiny hold, but that little toe scum like can make a huge difference. And it's so weird to think that biking is integral on something that's like very flat, you know, just very like smooth. And I mean, I know you're a little under a roof to get that uh uh that you know opposition, but just interesting that that's how the moves go.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Yeah. Well, I've always liked bicycling. Uh it's it's one of my uh favorite, I don't know, techniques because uh it really can allow you to hang on to terrible holds because it's keeping your center of gravity right underneath you, right into the wall, and you're kind of like clamping in with your lower body. Um, and that's something I love too is like lower body engagement. And there's really no better way than like a bike where like both of your feet are really doing something and they're in opposition like that, uh, to keep tension into the wall. I think it's like such a uh cool feeling and uh uh just like one of the coolest techniques. Underrated.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Underrated. I uh I used to climb so much with one foot on, like it's actually kind of like a strength of mine of having just that kind of foot that you pull over on. But now I just see that less and less, both in my climbing and everyone else's climbing, where it's just like, why would I just leave a limb hanging out in space? I mean, sometimes that kind of does help you, you know, sag out, be plum. Uh, but now it's like, why can't I find some place to put more rubber on the wall, get more friction, get more opposition? Like there's almost always an opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It depends on the the move, of course. You know, sometimes like a pogo or a back step is the way to go. Uh, but yeah, I think uh often as much uh like you put it, as much rubber as you can get on the wall. Like uh there you might be leaving some possibilities uh out there if if you're not trying to like scum a bike or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

This this doesn't work too well on boards, but something that I see myself do a lot is like you're doing some big move off of you know a high right foot, we'll say, and I'll like drag my left foot like all along the wall. Like you'll see, I'll see like my like a rubber. I feel like that's like a dynamic bicycle almost. You know what I mean? Like that opposition. I feel like that's kind of not, I don't know if there's a name for that, but I definitely know I didn't, I'm not the only one who does that.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yeah, well, uh, so there's a couple of instances, like one where on a board, when you're dragging your feet because you want to like keep your hips in as close as possible to the wall, like that that lower foot drag is kind of necessary. Oftentimes on a board, when I have a move like that that's really intense, uh, you have to like kind of plan your foot drag around the other holds. It's like I know that if I if I start with my foot like in this area where there aren't holds, it'll and then I dri I have to drag at this trajectory so I don't catch on any of the holds along the way. Sometimes that's a that's a problem with board climbing, but on on my project, I'm trying to keep as much friction as I can against the wall. So I'm actually dragging it to like slow my momentum. Uh otherwise I'll just come straight off the other direction.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Damn, dude. That's some that's some next level. I was actually thinking about this where board competitions, board lords, which we yeah, we should get to that, um, are kind of becoming I guess I I can't imagine that we'll if you fast forward three years that there's gonna be less board competitions. It seems like there's going to be more. Um and I just like I know that there's all these holds in the way, and I was like, I wonder if at board competitions, what they'll do is they'll like take off the other holds. They'll be like, okay, like this is the climb, but but I don't know, but then that would ruin the LEDs, yeah. But but then if I wanted to go and try it, it wouldn't be the same experience. So maybe I'm off in left field. But I just uh that was something that came to mind. Like, what if they just strip all the other holds and keep the holds that were for the the finals boulder, you know?

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Sure. Yeah, well, I mean, I've never seen a board lords less steep than like 45. It some often becomes less of a problem when it's like you know, fifty when it's like 50-55 degrees. I mean, we had a 60 degree climb, uh, where there's not too many, too many like dragging opportunities on the super steep stuff.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

I get stressed out when I'm like heel hooking something, and then you know, like sometimes either because of the toe point or pulling in, you're like touching it, and you're like, am I like cheating? But like then I can't do the move. But is that what makes the move the move? Is by avoiding that? And I get all into my head about that.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, that that is a factor for sure. Uh yeah, just I mean, you sometimes you have to like reposition your heel to make sure you're not on it. And then there's also times you're just like, my my toe touched that hold, and I don't think it was a big deal. I do that all the time.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Well, I I totally agree with you, and then like I have to put my videos out into the world, you have to do that as well. And then people like Carlo will be like, Josh, you didn't do that ball. You sucks, you're terrible. Um, so man.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

You know, you just deal with that.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Uh dude,

Matts Experience On Board Lords 10

SPEAKER_02 21:53

you were on Board Lord's number 10. It was the the first episode of the second season, new facility. Uh the Last board talk I had uh Michael and Quinn on, and we went went pretty deep. Uh, but yeah, you were on there with David Fitzgerald and Daniel Woods. Some people may recognize legends. Uh yeah. Well, how did it go? And I'm also curious if did you listen to the board talk we did about it by chance?

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Yeah, I listened to the board talk. I listened to all your board talks. I uh I'm I'm I'm a big fan. Yeah. I don't know if you knew that, Josh. I'm a big fan, listen to all the good temps, and then uh when you have interesting people on, I listen to that. Austin. Just Austin. Yeah. Actually, uh I need to listen to that one still, but uh but he is very interesting, so I'm looking forward to it. Um but yeah, uh so I I I did get to listen to that, and they had uh great insight. Uh the Daniel Woods glazing, they did enough of that, so we don't have to do that. He's glaze, he's although I could all day, honestly. I could all day. But uh yeah, I mean production was incredible. Like the production value and like the environment that they set up to have us in was just next level. Like um, I didn't really see that coming for uh a board lords or uh you know, just like a board event like that. So that was really special. They did an amazing job. I mean, for that like the athlete experience was like second to none.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

What did you think of the the boulders like themselves? Were they they were long, dude? That well, I guess they have that new 12 by 16, but every time I see them do these breakdowns, I go like, oh, like, oh, that move looks hard. I could imagine doing that. And that's like, okay, that next one, oof, that one looks really tough. And that's like that for about eight moves. I'm just like, that's a a lot of hard climbing that they string to get going.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Yeah, yeah. Well, so um they were uh showcasing their 12 by 16 boards, which are sick, and they should showcase those, but you know, they they added the the two feet to either side, so they're trying to showcase holds on either side. So, of course, it makes the most sense to start on one side to show some of the holds on the bottom uh part of that, and then to end it on the other side to show some holds on the on the top. So makes total sense, but that means you have to traverse uh the 16-foot wall. So the the boulders were a lot of moves, and uh, but they were super sick. And they they kind of like set them in a way where I mean it's hard not to make them feel long, but they felt like normal boulder problems to me.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Yeah, there's some there's can be an endurance component on especially these like even the 12 by 12 boards. Like my board experience started on this tiny little board. I can't remember how big it was. It couldn't have been as even as big as a moon board. And then moon boards, there's a lot of climbs on the moon board that are literally two moves, like like literally, yeah, like one and jump to the top. Uh, and so this is I don't know, we're seeing boards become something that you can do a lot of moves on. Uh, some of the questions I got for you were just understanding what the session was like. Was the vibe like just a normal session? Did you feel it's competitive? So it was there, yeah, just like how did you approach it?

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Yeah. Oh, I mean, it was it was all kind of a surprise because um, you know, we got there. I'd never been in the new facility before. So obviously, I had spent tons of time in their old facility. That was kind of my home gym when I lived in Colorado. But since they opened the the new training center, uh, I I mean I was just blown away. Uh, very inspiring. This, this, this space. Like, if I could just make a space for myself to train in, it would look almost exactly like that. So they know what they're doing. Yeah. They know what they're doing. Yeah. I mean, they're they're on top of it, you know. So uh amazing tour of the facility. I got to climb in it a little bit the day before. Um, but then you know, I think what they tried to prepare me for, but I didn't fully realize until I was there was there was like a hundred people there. I that might be an exaggeration, I didn't count, but it felt like there was like a hundred people there. They had pizza, they had beer, they had a DJ, Chris Cosser, the Olympian Chris Cosser was our DJ. And uh the the thing that like struck me was like the first time I pulled on the wall, I was I was the first person on the wall, and I was kind of going into it like, yeah, we're just sessioning, like you know, a fun session, let's let's figure this boulder out together. Kind of so uh that was my mentality going into it. So I was like, Oh, I'll go first. Um I pulled on the wall and it did a move or two. And but like as soon as I pulled on the wall, I had a hundred people screaming cheering for me, like it's a like it's a world cup, you know, like it's a world cup final. And that like that's like where it instantly clicked, like, oh no, like I'm in a this isn't just a sesh. I should be like trying hard here.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Is that like a fun? So you can imagine there's like two ends of the spectrum. There's like World Cup competitions or the Olympics where like literally it is the defining competition. Uh, and then there's like just total sesh with your buds maybe out in the middle of nowhere, just you know, super low intensity. It doesn't seem like it's like all the way World Cup. It's also not all the way relaxed. Like it's this intermediate area where it's like take it seriously, but like we're not, you know, gonna crown somewhat. Like it's just we're we are having fun, but like let's have a really intense session.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Yeah, yeah. That and um like Michael the day before, a couple times. I mean, to all of us, he said, uh, like, have fun, don't get injured. This isn't a competition. He kept saying this isn't a competition, like you can't win. I said, Yeah, but you can lose. You can't you can't win, but you can lose. Uh and uh so you know that that was kind of like where he was stressing it. Like, we're just here to you know have fun, have fun on the board and like treat it like you're a session and no one's here, we're not filming, whatever. Like, treat it that way. And uh, you know, I tried for about 15 seconds to treat it that way.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

I can't remember if this came out in the podcast, but maybe it was behind the scenes uh talking to Michael and Quinn. They felt, or I felt like, and I think they corroborated this, where it seemed like Daniel took it the most seriously. Like he, I mean, he he brought out an intensity that I'm not saying that he's not always intense in his climbing, but I don't know, he kind of like he's probably the most seasoned competitor out of you guys. Like he's done a lot of competing. I competed with him, uh, and just you can see him lock in, you know. Uh, and it felt like Daniel treated it like a you know, like a World Cup or something. Does that resonate with you?

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Yeah, maybe. Uh I mean he turned on for sure. Uh for sure. But uh I don't know if they mentioned that he went out climbing the day before, like he went out to the aerials. I he was like he was like late for uh for our pre-session um like interviews and stuff, because he was out climbing uh at the aerials, which is like I don't know, bouldering at like 12,000 feet or something. Oh my god. He was just projecting V16 the day before, probably or like the night before, got like probably like got all fatigued and and tired and like bad skid, and then came in the next day. So what's funny is like we thought he wasn't taking it seriously at all. Uh, but then it was like, man, maybe I should have gone out climbing the day before.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Well, did you know that that's like what happened with Hamish on that infamous day where he did he did how soon is now that you know 15 or whatever, where he was late. And like we were all just hanging out. I I I happened to be there and got to uh watch. And we're like, where is Hamish? He's not picking up his phone, like and he was out climbing at in Bocan. He did things done changed. He did things done changed, which I don't know if you know that thing, but it's like really heinous, like thin.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

It's a board boulder though. It's a board boulder. That's a that's a warm-up, huh?

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Dude, now that now that you say that, it is like a warm-up for him, like just just a like really heinous couple of move V12 that's um you know very very board-esque. Uh, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah, he just got his fingers warmed up. Yeah, his fingers, yeah, he woke them up a little bit. I thought that that one was hard, but whatever.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

What did you think about uh the different styles of all you guys and how you climb? Like it's so fun for me to get to see different climbers that all are so great on boards and just how they look when they climb, the beta they choose. Like, I I know that you get to session on boards with you and all the other pros all the time, but yeah, what jumped out at you about their styles or the way they chose to do moves? Like, yeah, anything you remember from that?

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Well, David is like amazing to watch. He is so strong, it's crazy like uh the way he can control the holds, and I'm sure that's been talked about to death, but it is shit like when you just see it in person, you can appreciate it fully. Uh yeah, it's like pretty special to watch how he climbs and uh and inspiring is that I need more hand strength to hang positions that in that way. Um, so yeah, pretty pretty cool to watch him just uh like he's attacking the boulder, but like in such a controlled manner, which sounds like it makes no sense until you kind of watch, until you watch him. That's that's just how he approaches it.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

I I was watching that video of him and Jimmy on the I think it's the full ride kilter board they just run on this one. Uh and as I'm watching him, it actually made me think of Jimmy. Unfortunately, Jimmy was injured, and so he wasn't really climbing in that. But it's this like they do a hard move, and then somehow they just like take a long time to grab the hold. You're like, aren't you just supposed to like grab the hold as fast as possible? But somehow they both have this moment of like attacking the boulder, being aggressive, but then like very gently grabbing the hold just how they want it, and then owning it. And it's just like this weird, yeah. It's I'll you said it best, like aggressive, but somehow like easy and relax at the same time. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Sure, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that's that like balance is where the magic happens for sure. Yeah, and and now that you mention it, it is it is weird that he and Jimmy do have similar styles, I think, of climbing. Um, Jimmy, I think like when he takes his time grabbing holds, it's because I've always thought of him as like being so detail oriented. Um, that's like something that I learned from him uh having the opportunity to climb with him. It's like, oh, I need to be way more detail-oriented than I am. Like he's uh really good about knowing intuitively where every finger needs to be on a hold to give him his best chance. So uh I think that's why you see him being so precise often on moves because he knows, like he knows where that pinky needs to be, and he's gonna make sure that it's there. And then he's strong enough to control the position until he gets to where it needs to be.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Any any other examples that just sounds fascinating, and also makes me think about how he looks when he places feet. I feel like he like really looks at the foothold. Like I just when he's climbing, he really like looks and he does that classic thing of kind of you know settling into the foot. Yeah. Ah, that's interesting you point that out.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Yeah, well, when I I got to climb with Jimmy in uh 2015, uh long time ago now, but uh that was kind of when I was first coming out, like I had just graduated college and I was like, I I want to be a pro climber and I want to figure I want to learn what that is. And so I got to go on a climbing trip with with Jimmy, and it was like when he was on his flashing rampage, he's kind of flashing the world. And I I think I saw him flash like I don't know, three or four V13s when we were on that trip. But that was something that that's where I was like, okay, I need to be way more detail-oriented because on those flash goes, you know, he is like very precise about like where does this foot go on this on this foothold? You know, like even like kind of how how am I twisting into it, you know, and then like do you do you take this hold like this, or do you like, or do you like barely cock your wrist and take it like this? So you know, like those little details all added up to then like 30 seconds of perfection and him executing. And that just left a huge mark on me and like how I wanted to approach climbing from there too, is uh yeah, I was just being like really detail-oriented and you know, make every go count.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

That's a lesson I keep trying to teach myself too, because I'm I like doing the other thing where I like I'm gonna be strong and just try harder. And then a lot of my friends, especially for granite climbing, yeah, they call them like crystal whisperers or where you put your feet. It's like in some ways, when you climb like in Yosemite, like there's no feet, or there's everything's a potential foot, and just choosing like the direction of and I I my buddy Mark Heel was on here, and we were talking about feed and slab climbing. And I asked him some question around would you rather have the bigger foot or the one that's faced the right direction for you? Yeah, and he was like, face the right direction a hundred percent of the time, and um just uh understanding that little like subtlety and and choosing. I that is not my strong point. Um, maybe that's why I like board climb. I feel like, well, actually, maybe that's holding me back in my board climbing too. I kind of like just gripping and ripping, dude, just and then you know, doing just trying harder, but sounds like that's only gonna get me so far.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Sure. Yeah, well, I mean, I think saying 100% of the time is kind of crazy. Like that, that's it, seems like that is a uh issue. Oftentimes, I find is like, do I take like often it's like, well, this this bad foot holds higher and maybe in a better position, but this good foot holds lower, but like a little bit worse, like it puts me in a little bit worse position. You kind of go in back and forth with that. Um, but yeah, that is always a debate you should you should be having with yourself, is like the pros and cons of these two different options. And uh then being aware. So, like while you're reading and while you're trying it, kind of like always taking note after you fall is like, what did I learn from that go? Where does my body positioning end up? And was that higher bad foot actually better than just staying down on the low good foot? Yeah, fascinating. Oh, I love climate.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

I love climate. Yeah, um uh so what did you think of these boulders that got set for board lords? Um, something that I have a buddy who he felt like this, and I don't know I he could be wrong, but he felt like those boulders better fit the box of Daniel and David and not you as much. Um, and I know that in general they do their best to set, and you know, but there's different morphologies, and you know, you're you're a little different size than like David Fitzgerald. Um, did you feel like the boulders uh fit you or didn't fit you? Or yeah, what was your take on them?

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Oh, I felt like they fit me. I I I think they were basically my style for boulders. Yeah. There's like um, I guess the very beginning of the first boulder we did, uh where um like you kind of bump to a crimp and then you're supposed to you were supposed to uh like clamp foot like a hand foot match, like you basically have three limbs on one hold. And uh it was that was like a little bit scrunched to where I felt like I was when I would get in that position, I'd push, I would be pushing away on the small crimp. Um so I had to uh use some different beta, like a double clutch method to get through that section. So cool. Um yeah, and that was a sick, that was a sick move. But uh so like maybe that was a little bit, since I'm a little bit taller than those guys, maybe it was morphologically harder for me. But at the same time, you know, if I if I was if that crimp was like good, like if that crimp was if I felt that crimp was good, I could get in that position and do that move. So, you know, if I was like as strong on that crimp as like Daniel or Dave, I bet that they still would have done it.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

So Matt, your hands are unbelievably strong, but it's tough to also be like if my hand, if my if I felt as good on that crimp as Daniel or Dave, like they may be literally like I don't know if there's anyone in the world that felt as strong on that crimp as Daniel or Dave. That's uh that's like yeah, maybe not. Yeah, yeah. Those guys they have strong hands, dude. I have this urge to just stay in board lords 10 territory, but we would just go down the rabbit hole forever. I gotta talk about some of the other because it was awesome, right? Just it was awesome, wasn't it? It was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

And like, dude, I can't give them enough of a shout out at tension. Like the production was insane and the athlete experience was amazing. They were like, it was so clear where we needed to be and what we needed to be doing, and then just like the vibe in there that they created. It's so different from Board Lords One, you know, that was kind of like a session in the middle of a workday, basically, to an event. Um yeah, just like seeing the evolution of that and uh getting to be a small part of that was really an honor. So um, yeah, like shout out to those guys, and I'm excited to see what they do in the future, and I want to be on it again.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

I mean, yeah, their trajectory is just incredible. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they've it's become kind of the defining content of board media, it feels like. Yeah, like it kind of feels like it's the culture. Um, and uh they they earned it. That it's been a lot of work on on their side, I think. Uh, you know, that it's it's a production, like you're saying. Although it did start kind of yeah, pretty low-key. Um, it's so cool, it's so fun. I felt so blessed to even get to watch one that I'm just excited to see where they go with it. I want more, more board lords, please.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

More, yeah. I mean, I think it's inspiring too. Like, I want to I want to make my own version here in Boise and you know, have like kind of like to display, obviously not on the same scale, but you know, so like kind of just to display like the I think it's a cool way to celebrate people that are training hard and and putting effort into bouldering improvement and kind of display that effort on a board, and yeah, kind of like show show them that like hey, the these local climbers are uh trying hard, they're training hard, and look how cool that is. And look how it pays off, and look how cool it is. It's yeah. Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Potentially some of the most fun times in climbing. Like, if you're gonna talk about my favorite indoor sessions ever, it's it's with a crew like that. Like, oh, I like made up this one. I think it goes like uh you know, like, oh oh, you did the move like that. That was crazy. And then someone like does the move a different way, and you're just it's literally some of the most fun you can have in climbing. And and I I'm guessing you saw, did you see the Japanese version that Toshi put on?

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Yeah, well, I saw I saw uh a several clips from it. I haven't watched the full video yet, but yeah, I mean that looks that's like amazing. Those guys are insane.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

I hope we get to see them on official board lords. I feel like those can be like feeder things. It's like it's like your audition video, your like uh audition video, I should say. Um, it's like, hey, look at what we did over in Boise. Like, could we do that on you know over you guys?

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Yeah, can we do this in Tokyo?

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SPEAKER_02 42:15

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The Core Board

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Okay, okay. Um there is other things that happen in the board world, and one of the things that hit my radar is a new board that is being released called the Core Board. Uh, and this is out of Sheffield from Core. The I I I don't know the name of the hold company, probably Core Climbing. Uh, they've been making holds forever. So this is kind of like their entrance into the market. And I I got to talk to Matt Bird, who is one of the people helping them get out into the market. It was kind of cool. I don't know. Did you get a chance to see the board at all?

SPEAKER_00 43:22

I haven't seen much of it. I just saw like an Instagram uh sort of ad or display of it. And I thought it looked pretty cool. There's a lot of color, which which is nice. I mean, if I if I had a a board, I would make it like a little more monochrome or or like a like attention board or a kilter board. I I that's like more my aesthetic, but you know, that's been done. So it's it'll it's nice to have like a another board with some color on it.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

Yeah, I always I see boards enter the market here and there, and I just because I'm trying to pay attention to what's what's out in the world, I drop them a message and then Matt. Reached out, Matt, Matt Bird, sorry. Uh and I got to hear a little bit about it. And I I thought it was cool. Like, you know, I haven't gotten to Climate. We don't know what happens in the future. It's just somewhat, you know, a new one. But I think the thing that he said that stood out to me the most is that he thought that a lot of the problems that they were setting uh would end up on a 30-degree angle, which I found really interesting. So they kind of made some of the hold shapes. I mean, I know it is adjustable, it'll be great at all angles, but it was a bit of a homage to the area. It's uh Sheffield, and there's grit stone there, there's you know limestone, and just that idea of not necessarily always slammed super far back at like 60. Uh, and I thought that was actually potentially a really big differentiator.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Oh, that's interesting. So, like the holds that they were shaping are more meant to be climbed on at like 30 degrees.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Yeah, I'd be more comfortable. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Again, all angles are fair game. It just they uh like he talked about Sean Coxy is one of the people involved, and he was telling me about some 7C uh V9 that he said was just like bad feet, bad hands, super tension-y. And he made a comment about how a lot of times boards will have holds that are so good that what you end up doing is you get the good hold, and then everything just kind of relaxes, and then you, you know, get to the next move. It can be that like very dynamic, flingy style, where when you have really bad feet, really bad hands, you kind of are on, you know, that uh you know, high tension for the entire uh section of the climb. And as a result, that also allows you to do climbs at a lower angle where I think I can still get that I keep using the word tension, uh, you know, uh on the tension board at really steep angles, uh, because you have to, you have to keep your feet on. But I thought that was interesting that potentially this could have fairly difficult boulders at a lower angle in a way that's not gimmicky.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Yeah, super interesting. I mean, that's like surprising to me because I mean just from like the 10-second clip I saw, I didn't get the impression that it had a lot of like really intense holds. It looked like it had a good variety of holds to me. Uh but although maybe there there's some slopers and and pinches and stuff on there that might be harder to use at like 50 or 60 degrees, of course. But yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Well, that was the other thing he said to me is that it was uh it it's definitely got a homage to Sheffield and that old school just board climbing culture with those bad holds. But then there's uh the slopers and pinches that are kind of more modern. And I just thought it was cool kind of uh making sure that they had their roots in that location. Like uh my my hunch is is that they will get adoption in you know the UK market, like the people who are behind it are that kind of have that history there. Uh and yeah, that's just I'm interested. It's uh it's 12 by 12, it's symmetrical, so you you know it's got that mirroring aspect. And he kind of told me that it was maybe more on the the training side of a board spectrum. If you know you uh I mean all boards can be training. I would say some boards link like are more lean towards fun than training. Um and this is not good or bad, it's just you know how the creators had it in mind. And so I think that symmetrical thing is also that component of like do it on both sides, you know. Like uh so again, uh hard holds, training oriented, uh, and I don't know. I'm just curious. I'm psyched psych for them.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

I'm super curious, yeah. I mean, it sounds great. I'm a board climbing fan, so I'll I'm looking forward to trying it out for sure.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

Yeah, the other thing they had that kind of stood out is uh uh I think it's called Lumo is the company that makes like the panels, and it was like these LED light strips. I I've never seen one of these. I have followed the Instagram, you know. I I don't have a ton of info, but it seemed like rather than lighting the holds themselves, it's like lit on the LED behind it to denote like which hold is. And and I I feel like every lighting system has pros and cons. So I don't know, like maybe that's great. Like I I I can see why they do that because I think it allows for Lumo to support multiple boards rather than just or you or hold sets, like maybe you could even use it for your own home spray wall. I don't really know. I should now I feel like I should reach out to them too. But uh just kind of interesting. Another unique thing that will only time will tell if it is the way it goes or not.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Yeah. Well, I mean, that would be super sick because like I I have both uh I have a TB2 in my garage, but also a spray wall. And uh I'm I'm on the spray wall pretty often, but sometimes it's jarring to go from the TV two, uh, you know, like a few sessions in a row on the TV two, and I'll transfer the pads over to my spray wall and be like, I'll try to go to light something up and like, oh yeah, this one doesn't do that. I'd have to like remember everything. So yeah, I mean that that's kind of the dream is to have the the LED spray wall.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

So again, I have no idea if they actually support that. Just in my head, I was like, well, if you have this strip, like you can put any holds on.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

So well, if they don't, they should. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

Shout out, uh, yeah, that would be a good application. Uh I'm sure that I we can't be, I don't think we're that brilliant that we just came up with that. I'm pretty sure they they already know. Um Okay, the other thing that I saw that's kind of just a little sidebar is do you see that there was like a a lattice post about boards? Um you know, they they call it, they said like something like boardlords or like who is the boardlord or what's the I should have brought the real boardlord or something. The real board lord, and that was all this data. But I don't know, I clicked on it because of course, of course, the algorithm would serve me up something about boardlords. Um but it like it didn't really ring true to me, like some of the data that they showed. And then in the comments, they had they said that like it didn't have TB2 data because the TB2 wasn't commercially available. And uh I so I just kind of like I wanted to bring it up because it got a lot of clicks and likes and it was served up to me. And I love all these guys at Lattice, they this just this is not a a shot at them uh or against them. But I feel like without like the most current data, like boards have changed a lot uh since uh you know since the TB2 became commercially available. And so like kind of feel like people should take that post with a a big grain of salt.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I remember seeing it and thinking it didn't look right. Yeah, uh, but you know, just I I honestly don't know enough about it. Like it could totally be right, but if it was if it is right, like I would it's impressive for tension because then it seems like they're not in the other category when it comes to boards, yeah. It's like they seem like a major player. So uh and and a lot of the content at least I get that the algorithm shows me are TB2 climbs. So it's either you know, like those are like the the climbs that are inspiring and people want to post the most, or it's you know, maybe that's just what Instagram's giving me.

SPEAKER_02 51:32

But yeah, I I do like the idea of having more data about the people who are on the boards and what they prefer and what grade they climb. And you know, I I think this is a topic that always comes up on on this particular podcast around like what is the moon board good for? What is the kilter board good for, or the tension board? And it, you know, like they all have their pros and cons, just like we were talking about the core board and how I thought to me the thing that jumped out was that potentially, and what we don't know, it may really be something that's cool at a lower angle than we typically climb at. Um, and so you know, hearing how people, you know, sort themselves and why they choose different boards is fascinating. I'm just like, if you don't even have TB2 uh or if you don't have the data from when the TB2 became commercially available, I'm just not sure it like it really hits home because the boards in the last three years, you can't look back and and uh learn much, I think.

SPEAKER_00 52:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's changed it's changed a

Ben Moon and Sam Prior Benchmarking Boulders

SPEAKER_00 52:34

lot.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

Okay. Uh the other big video that just actually I shouldn't say the other. Kind of the video that I feel like hit the internet this month, and I I watch views of board climbing things because I want to see what everyone's curious about was a moon board video, and it was how we actually benchmark moon board problems. And boy, was it popular. Like it just like it got so many views in just a day or two. And what I do is I typically see them on YouTube, I like kind of bookmark them, then see if it gets really popular. They got served up to me because of course I want to know about benchmarking on the moon board. It's it's a very popular one. But yeah, did you get a chance to see that one?

SPEAKER_00 53:16

I did see that one, yeah. I thought it was very interesting. Yeah, knowing their the kind of their process on on how they select the benchmark boulders and always fun, of course, to watch Ben Moon and Sam climb. Like he's the man, yes, and Sam, of course. But uh yeah, it just um yeah, whenever I get to see Ben Moon climb, like that's special. Did you know he's like I think he's 60 now, dude? He's the man.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Are we gonna be doing that? 60.

SPEAKER_00 53:47

I sincerely hope so, but uh maybe not at that level. Yeah, I mean I I remember one of my the first climbing videos I ever got to see was one summer uh with Ben Moon on VHS. What's it dozens of times, yeah? Is that analog? Yeah, yeah, exactly. But no, I uh the the video is really cool. Uh I liked some of the discussions they had uh about like why why they didn't think things would be classic or why they would. Like Sam mentioned at one point that he didn't think like one of these climbs was a classic because you can break it, because you can break the beta. Uh uh Ben was like, Well, you didn't break it, you made it hard. You did it differently, but you made it harder. If you break the boulder but make it harder, you didn't actually break it. Yeah, that's a great point. Like, if it's harder, then you didn't break the boulder.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

Well, here's a different, here's like a little uh variation on that comment is if you can do a boulder two different ways or more or three different ways, and it's all the same difficulty, is that better or worse? Like, is that good or bad?

SPEAKER_00 55:07

I mean, uh generally, I think it's better. I mean, if you think about it outside, it it allows more people to do the boulder, you know, if if different morphologies are able to climb it. Uh that's always cool. But there it is one thing though, too. Uh sometimes though, with like outdoor outdoor boulders, a boulder will like the beta get so broken that it gets like so downgraded that no one wants to climb on it anymore. I've seen that happen a few times.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

So I would in general agree that if there's more ways to do something and they're all kind of equally hard and equally cool, that I think that's like a bonus. Like that should make it more likely to be a benchmark or a classic or whatever, you know, whatever you know, tag. But then I also can make the argument that especially on big boards and like historically how boards worked, is there's something really cool about being very pure and basic and just asking the question like, can you grab this crimp and jump to the next crimp? Like there's no, there's no matching, there's no heel hooking, which is kind of like the the old school on some spray walling, especially out of the UK. It's just like the question here is can you grab this crimp and jump to the next one? And so like I could make that other argument that like perhaps what a benchmark is supposed to be is like a very simple and specific demonstration of an ability.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

Sure. Yeah, it's asking less questions, I guess. Kind of less to figure out like you can you do it or can't you? Uh yeah, I mean that that can absolutely be a classic boulder.

SPEAKER_02 56:48

I kind of feel like when it really comes down to it, whether it's a classic or a benchmark or I think Kilter's like verified climb. I I I think they have something similar now, or they're heading in that direction. I kind of just feel like in general, it's like this is pretty cool. Like, like that's just kind of like this this is kind of like interesting, like uh, you know, or this just like flowed well, or it's just, you know, not bad. I feel like is kind of like I think it's almost, yeah, just a this doesn't suck. Like you guys should probably climb it.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

Right. Uh yeah, I mean there there was a moment in that video too where Sam comes down and he goes, I don't think so, too boring. It's like, yeah, like classics also have to be cool, they don't have to just be like dead on for the grade and like indicative of of what like that grade is on this board. Like they also have to be cool, like and interesting and unique, uh or at least they should be. But then like that's all that was also like when Ben disagreed with him and he's like, actually, I like this folder. And you know, if we disagree, then then what do we do? Uh then how do we benchmark? If you think this sucks and I think it's cool, is it a is it a classic or not? And then Ben Moo's like, well, if I think it's a classic, then you know, guess who's right? Basically, my name's on the board. Just look at the board. Oh, the moon board. Pretty sure it's gonna get classic. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Sorry, sorry, Sam. I actually kind of thought you were wrong on on this one. I yeah, I I like was watching it. I was like, okay, no, it's not like super unique or interesting, but it seemed like it flowed pretty well. And I often think when we go outdoors, like we like boulders that are kind of like consistent and flowy, and it wasn't super interesting, but um, I thought that was worthwhile. Like, I feel like it's hard to even on something like the moon board that's so constrained, you know, it's only an eight by twelve to have like four or five moves that are consistent and flowy is is more rare than we'd like to admit.

SPEAKER_00 58:52

Yeah, sure. Yeah, and then like along those same lines of like breaking the boulder, and uh they also kind of went into eliminates, which is like when you break the boulder, but it's harder. And then um they they have uh a little debate about like can the eliminate be a classic when the original is not? Like if it the eliminate actually makes it cooler and better, and even though it's like that higher grade, it is more deserving of the classic or the benchmark. Um, I thought that was interesting, and it's also a very good and fun way, like a good habit, I think, to get into on boards or just in general is eliminate climbing. I think it's a great way to train. It's like an easy way to set something for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 59:38

It also really forces you to think about different beta and understand how your body works. Like, what if you took off like that foothold that's placed so perfectly that helps you do some drop knee? Like, what if that wasn't there? Like, what now? And yeah, of course it'll be harder. Well, actually, not of course it'll be harder. Sometimes you realize, like, oh, I I could heel hook. Yeah, it's almost yeah, like what you say, you say it's like the easiest way to set for yourself. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I think so. You if you if you send a boulder and it's like not that hard for you. We we play that game all the time. When I have people over climbing on my boards with me, uh, you know, we'll set a problem and then you know we'll all do it. And then like, okay, how many holds can we take off? And it it's surprising how often it happens that we end up with a better boulder, you know, from doing that, or just uh something that's like got more interesting movement on it than what I originally set.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

So dude, the that video just had a vibe with David Mason in the back, just like lifting weights. Yeah, he's just deadlifting. It's like just shirtless, just getting jacked back there, like while Ben Moon and Sam Pryor are like, you know, like flashing uh eight A's deciding if they're benchmarks or not. I was just like, this is cool. Like, I just to me, like that was some good peak uh moon boarding right there.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

And good vibes. Yeah, there's uh like like Sam just is just like hanging out usually. He's just he's just laying down on the pad and whatever and just yapping.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

That part where Ben was he's like, no talking when I'm climbing, and then Sam just was like laughing, and he like Sam like couldn't stop laughing. Like he just it was like one of those that just went on super long. And dude, I don't know, like I've never met Ben Moon, but he's got like a seriousness to him, man. Like when he said that, I was like, Oh, yeah, shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

Like, okay, don't talk when Ben's I would have shut up, yeah. Yeah, I would have shut up, but yeah, Sam knows him way better than I do, and really they have that rapport.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:43

Ah man, but yeah, watching Ben climb uh at 60, or or if he's not 60, he was within he's within a year or two of that. And then how competitive he still was. Like he he clearly did want to beat Sam, even though he kind of like gives him his flowers. He's like, Well, you're like an AC climber. But um, and just the way he climbs is still so young and in his hands, like and jumpy and grab. I mean, he has great technique and keeps his feet on. Uh, the only thing I felt like that gave away that he was older than Sam is like when he jumped off, like he always like fell to the ground instead of like landing. I was just like, kind of crumpled into a pile.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:22

His knees are probably he's like, I've I've taken a lot more falls than you guys, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

Honestly, same, dude. I that's how I fall. I I I just climbed so at um uh the Asana gym, my my home gym, uh they have a kilter board, but they have like a really tall kicker. So the kilter bar board feels really tall, even at like 50, it feels tall. So I've been climbing on it at 60, not like to make things harder, but because the falls are way shorter. I'm like, I just need to be nice to my body.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:56

There's nothing about bouldering that's nice to your body. Also, uh wish I could pull off that haircut uh at my age, but even at 60, how many 60-year-olds do you know with a haircut like that, dude? That was I don't know what to call it. Just it's like not a shaved side. I don't know. Very cool. Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:17

I could I could never, but yeah, it's cool. He he's the man. It's it's so sick he can pull that off.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:26

I would I would like to see more of those benchmarking videos. Um, I think that that name was a little more about getting us to click on it than it was like really doing a deep dive into benchmarking. I felt like while I was listening to it, I was like, what I'm hearing is about more why why something wouldn't be a benchmark, not so much why it would be a benchmark. It was like this disqualifying.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

Yeah, what are they looking for? Yeah, like uh sort of the more exact parameters. It'd be nice to see a list of like these are the elements of a benchmark. And you know, there there can be that like X factor. It's like, hey, there's the the this boulder, it on paper, it hits, it hits, but when I climb it, I'm not like feeling it. And maybe those aren't classics.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:14

You know what boulder I always think of as being an example of a benchmark that's like a gimmick versus like a good climb is uh Jerbear Snare.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

Do you know that one on the moon board, yeah, on the 2016? A benchmark but not a good climb. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:31

It's got it's like objectively terrible. Uh I mean, honestly, so yeah, so it's one move up to that knob on that yellow knob, which is sometimes good and sometimes bad. It's good in like the like you can grab, but dude, like that's not like a good hold in that like this is what I like climbing on. Like uh I feel like like how often are you is that like a what are those things called? Sometimes you get them like a knob and grant like Ryolite or something? There's like a name, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

Like a mini cobble. A mini miniature cobble, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:07

But in general, terrible hold.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

Yes. And and that's like the worst hold when you get like a shallow pour.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:13

Oh, dude, you're so right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:14

Yeah. When when it's like a full, when you get have like a good set that's like full on, it's kind of a jug. But when it's a shallow pour, it's a miserable hold. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:22

So if I remember that climb correctly, you like do a move with your right hand up to it, and then you go all the way to the end. You kind of can match it as an undercling, almost pinch it, like just like a little tickle. Um, or you just one arm it. Maybe you could handcuff. But what makes it also even worse of like a climb, in my opinion, is I think it's all on the same uh column. So like there's no like footwork or moving your body around. It's like a very again, it's like asked that question. Can you grab like a doorknob for a toddler um and then do a one arm pull up on it or not? Like it's just like that's the question. Like, I'm like, is this This is a benchmark. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:02

Simple question. Yeah. That's not an easy one to break or eliminate, holds from.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

By the way, the the answer to that question for me was no, I cannot. I cannot go do it. I tried and actually, I actually maybe only tried it once, and it's not even that like I didn't like the problem despite all the shit I'm talking about. It just like I like didn't want to get so I felt like I could get hurt on something like that. It's like very like um tweaky. Yeah, and now I don't even have the 2016. So the the answer to the question for me was no, I cannot answer that question.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:42

I've honestly never tried it. I think uh, you know, when I was on a benchmark journey a few years ago, I pulled it up and looked at it and said, nah, I'll try the next one.

ROQ Gym Permanently Closes

SPEAKER_02 1:06:53

The other thing that hit the the interwebs, the and the Instagram that stood out to me was uh Rock Closed, R-O-Q, Rock Closed. Um, and it's sad because they opened not that long ago. It felt it felt like all really quick. Uh and they were the gym that had a ton of kilter boards. They had some programming in place, or it kind of seemed like they were running classes, like hit classes. Actually, I should probably like have you describe it because I know that you were helping them out. Um, but just kind of sad to see them them go. It was, I think, only after like eight or nine months, and I just I don't know what went on behind the scenes. Uh, I wish they had gotten like 18 months in. I just like I feel like it's not enough time to understand you know, business is hard and sometimes you gotta like tweak things and pivot a little bit. I just wish they had more time to figure it all out because it was interesting, man. Like, I yeah, I was Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

Yeah, it was super interesting, and you know, we learned a lot. So I I had the opportunity to do their programming. So I wrote their workouts and well, what it was was we we had uh 14 kilter boards all in a row, and the idea was for it to be a group fitness class, uh, but with with climbing, kind of as the main modality. And so I got the opportunity to write those workouts remotely for people so that when clients would come in and uh they would be led by a group instructor through a group workout, which included you know on-the-wall intervals on kilter boards of uh varying steepness. So we had uh a few even zero degree kilter boards for uh, you know, if someone was brand new to climbing, uh we set you know V zeros on the zero degree, you know, basically ladders, you know, going halfway up, and they could do their their bouldering intervals on there. Uh and then we, you know, all the way to there's 45 degrees, and then even beyond that, we had adjustable walls that you know could could go to 70 or whatever. Uh and we had the the full ride, like the um the full ride boards and the OG boards. So it was an amazing facility, and we like we made a great product. Uh it just unfortunately didn't catch on. I think we were at like, I can't speak too intelligently about this, I guess, because I I don't know like the finer details. Uh but yeah, as far as I understand it, like the marketing, we just couldn't get to where we thought it would appeal to climbers and group fitness enthusiasts. We may have appealed to neither because it was like climbers thought maybe it wasn't for them. Um, when I I think it would have been excellent for climbers. Uh, but then like group fitness enthusiasts maybe were a little intimidated by the climbing aspect of it. And so instead of like pulling from two potential groups, we kind of pulled from neither. So it was a great product, it was a beautiful space. Uh, I think we just didn't quite hit uh where where we wanted to in that space. So a lot of lessons learned, and uh, I'm hopeful like Michael does something similar in the future and that I get to be a part of it. But uh yeah, it just too bad that it didn't last.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

Yeah, this is where I was just hoping to see them have another year or so because it's very hard to uh uh know what's going to work. There's so many, there's so many gyms. And one of the most common things that happens in gyms is that they are like, oh, we're going to have a gym that's yeah, like maybe hardcore or something. We're gonna set, you know, nothing but these crazy boulders. And then it turns out that that's not a big enough market. And so they adjust and they say, okay, like we're getting a lot of people in this grade range that are interested, but we're not serving them. And so they adjust the setting, adjust the holds. Um, and that's where like what you just said like made sense about the target. Uh, but then that's like the first shot, you know, like you take aim and you see if it goes, and that's like, okay, like maybe we need to shift it more towards climbing or more towards group fitness and non-climbers. Like, I don't know. Uh who knows what the right answer is, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:07

Yeah, yeah. You know, and it's it but it's so cool that like we gave it a shot. Like, I'm so proud of uh Michael Haas for like giving it a shot, like trying it out and doing something new and trying to enter a new space and trying to to like offer a service that has never been offered before, and like to just go out, go all out and do that. Like, I like so much respect for that, and I learned so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:31

I agree. I I I'm always a fan of people who go out there and create and anyone who you know has taken shots at or detract and say, like, oh, I knew that this wasn't gonna work out. It's it's like it's so I I've said this time and time again, it's so easy to tear things down, it's so hard to build them up, and it's always hard to know what works. And I mean, heck, like at some point, climbing gyms were like this. It's like you're gonna like put like plaster on a wall and like shape it into weird things, then put like plastic, you know, and then bolt, yeah, polyethylene. Like that sounds dumb. Like no one is going to like that. Like, and it's gonna hurt your hands. Like, don't do that. We're rock climbers, go outside. And so, yeah, you know, yeah, shout out Michael. Um, and you know, keep swinging and to everyone out there that has their own idea, like try it. You learn a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:25

100%. Yeah, and and and like I said, like I can't speak too intelligently because I don't know like too many details about the inner workings, but yeah, I mean that that is what I know is that we had a good product and uh it just we just didn't hit where we needed to.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:39

Well, uh yeah, I'm sure we uh it's not the last we will see of uh you know new new things hitting the market in the board space too. I still feel like no one has really nailed down kind of what a board gym like like when we say board gym, you know, there's gyms that have literally one board and you just have like access to it. And then there's board gyms that have like five boards, but then there's a lot of other walls, and then there's ones with classes. Like I know of a place where I think like you have to book the board because it's so popular and it's like they pair people together. Just I don't know what's gonna happen, but uh I know that the more things they try, the more they'll find something that really resonates. And as a as a board lover, a board concewer, I encourage all uh experimentation in the space.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. It's something that we've been talking about here in Boise. Like is do we have a market, like we're a relatively smaller climbing market, you know, big bigger than a lot of places, but um, you know, we've got Salt Lake not too far away, and you know, your Reno is not even that far away. Uh we're kind of like somewhere in like a in the this like middle space, and we're definitely in a transitional like time where it's really growing in popularity, but we don't have any mega gyms here. Like we we don't have a bouldering project or momentum up here. Um, so like we're it's like kind of an interesting place that we're in right now, and and I've I've been curious recently. Like, I do I do wonder if we have uh like if a board gym or a training center or something around here would be viable or not. I don't know about uh as much about the market, but I've seen it be successful. I've seen those types of things be successful in other places, and I I'm curious about how it would work in a relatively smaller climbing market.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:35

I like how you're just putting it out there to manifest so that someone comes along and builds basically the tension training in the backyard.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

Yeah, that's what I want. Yeah, please. Yeah, if tension wants to expand and uh make another training center out here in Boise, please.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:52

Or or here in Reno. No, we have some good gyms here too. It's uh yeah, just maybe everywhere. Yeah, just saying. Um like more of that. Uh right. Uh okay, Matt. Um, let's move on to some uh bonus question and answers that are directed at you, man. If you want to hear that QA and other extra behind-the-scenes content from this episode and others, head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad-free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow, please share this episode with someone who would love it. Okay, see you next week.