Board Talk #17 with Matthew Mendes — The World’s Strongest Fingers, The Death Of Spray Walls, and Climbing V11 In Under A Year

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Like a fourteen on a board is way harder than doing a V fourteen outside. The upper end of board grading is like, in my opinion at least, so much harder than like the equivalent grades outside. I don't think I've done a V fourteen on a board. I don't think there's really a comparison there. I think, you know, because outdoors V14 isn't the pinnacle of the sport. We've still got a few more grades after that, you know? So people aren't like shy to be realistic about it. But then on a board, people are like, they're brutal. They're brutal. They're just like, no, no, I could do it, so it's not 14.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Welcome to the Test Piece podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com/slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Matt Mendes.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Welcome to Board Talk, dude. How's it going, man? Thank you for having me. I'm I'm great. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

I'm good. I saw your lattice video that went freaking viral because it was awesome. And I was just like, man, there is a lot of boards on there. I've been wanting to talk to Matt for a while. I feel like this is a good time. This is the sign. So we're doing a board talk, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

I think so. Yeah. Yeah, the there were quite a few boards, weren't there?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

I mean, was there anything other than boards? Like I remember there was some hangboards.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Um yeah, a little bit of that. There's a campus board in there.

unknown 2:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Hangboard, campus board, board boards. And I've never bouldered on limestone, but it looks like uh it looks like the board climbing equivalent of outdoor bouldering somehow. Like it kind of like it's like a session, a thing that doesn't top out. There's a lot of like different lines. Is that is that a dick thing to say, or is that a reasonable thing to say?

SPEAKER_00 2:23

No, I mean it's yeah, it's not too far off. I wouldn't I wouldn't think so. In some ways it does have that similarity. But this the style, I think it's a bit more like outdoor climbing than sometimes people give it credit for, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

When you say people give it credit for, do you mean all of us on good temps making fun of you and limestone bouldering all the time, except for Austin Hoyt, who somehow supports limestone bouldering even though he's never done it?

SPEAKER_00 2:53

No, no, not in that sense. Uh I mean more stylistically. Like uh I feel like people see the limestone and they're like, oh, it's just board climbing effectively, like style-wise. But I mean, they'll there are other differences. Like just when the grade gets a lot harder, I do realize that you know, something as simple as jumping and cutting loose all the time, it's just something that you just don't do a lot, and it just gets overlooked so much. I feel like people are like, uh, it's basically the same thing, but then yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Dude, that's something that almost bums me out uh about like I'm usually pretty good on boards, and you go outside and it definitely works to jump and cut and grab things on some climbs, but kind of doesn't really work at all. Like it's it's it's like a tool that you can bust out, especially on something that's maybe below your level to like bypass some like techie section that you struggle with. But let's face it, you're not climbing V15 or or HC by like just jumping and cutting on every hold. That like never happens.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

No, yeah, it's it's very much just like the occasional move you might like have to jump, but it's not often the easiest way.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

So it does kind of look like board style in the sense that it looks almost like the the walls are typically like I don't want to say 2D because they seem to all have like a wave shape there. Um, but like is it like super is it techier than I realized like what what is it when you started climbing out there that you felt like was new skills that you had to bring based on your kind of you had excelled at boards for a long time and then I'm guessing you didn't just go out and instantly smash V15.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Yeah, I mean it's again, it's not the most technical rock type, just inherently. It's it is basic, but it's you know, with what I was saying about quite often you have to keep your feet on. The rock is really slick and quite frictionless, uh like even before it polishes, it's like really slick. So it can be surprisingly difficult to like adjust to that, I think. And if you don't get the hang of that, then it's it can be a bit problematic.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Matt, I feel like we just went straight into you doing a bunch of hard climbing outside. I should I I think everyone listening has seen that lattice video of you because yeah, you did a video of you training with or how do I say maybe not training with lattice? They did like a highlight video of you with some amazing clickbait title, like the the strongest fingers we've ever tested, which is uh just I mean it made me click, so who am I to say? Yeah, uh if it works, it works. Yeah, and you're kind of famous, infamous, I don't know. One of those for being uh relatively new to climbing. It sounds like you've done about five years. Am I right there?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yeah, yeah. It's I think almost five years on the dot now.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Sounds like a long time, but it's not that long to be climbing now HC outside. And the stat that really blew my mind was that you climbed 8A or V11 in 11 months on a board. And I think it was a moon board, or at least that's was the the clip they were playing when they uh said that. And climbing V11 on a board is definitely hard. And not many people, I don't think many people have done that in their first year of climbing. Uh and so, you know, uh yeah, just psyched to have you on here because I've been watching your just your quick progression and trajectory. Uh, and we've been making fun of you on good temps for a few things. Uh, and I'm just glad to actually get to talk to you versus talk at you and some Instagram posts that you made that we somehow gave you crap on. Hopefully, you didn't mind us uh taking the piss out of you.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah, no, it's all good. It's all good. I don't mind that at all. Um I'm very happy to go

Matt's Rapid Progression

SPEAKER_00 6:53

on.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

So take us to when you started climbing. Uh, how old were you? How did you get started? And you know, how did you just get so good so fast? I think that's what we all want to know.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Okay. Uh yeah, I mean, I was 15 when I started. It was like end of 2021 around about. I don't know. I I think I just got into it in quite like a generic way. It was just a friend of mine that I knew who climbed. He was like, come along, it'll be fun. And then yeah, as it happens with everybody else who's addicted to the sport, you just get hooked immediately.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

What sport were you doing before you came into it? Or and and and did you do any other sports at a high level in general?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Not like a ridiculously high level, um, but I've like tried various different things. I think the sports that I was doing closest to when I started climbing would have been probably cricket and tennis and maybe field hockey as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

I feel like those are not like I came out of gymnastics and gymnastics works. Like, I I'm just gonna say gymnasts are strong, they understand movement. It definitely is not some kind of free pass to climbing really well, but it's a great base. And it's interesting to hear that some of your sports sounded more lower body dominant. Um, where when I look at your progress on board specifically, like, I mean, yes, feet are super important in climbing and on boards, but if I were to pick one attribute that doesn't need as much uh, you know, it's like your lower body on 60 degree stand, you know, spray walls. Like I let's just face it.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the reality of it, isn't it? Um I mean, I I did also do gymnastics for a while when I was a lot younger, and it's it was mentioned in like I don't know if it was mentioned in the lattice video, but it was mentioned in some YouTube video that I've been in. And I think a lot of people were in the comments being like, oh well, obviously it translated perfectly. I stopped gymnastics when I was like 10. I I mean I was quite good at it, but it was a fair gap between stopping gymnastics and starting climbing.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Well, not to like not to uh over-emphasize, I think I stopped when I was around 10, and yeah, I now have kids and I have forced them to do gymnastics. And what's crazy is that you actually can do a lot by the time you're 10. Like, so I guess what I want to ask is like at what level like were you doing giants? Were you doing double backs? Were you doing you know, like what kind of level did you reach in gymnastics? Even at 10, like you can get pretty far.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Yeah, I I was competing. Like it was probably the sport, like if I had carried on doing gymnastics, it probably would have been the sport that I was best at. Like I I was fairly good at it. Yeah, I think though the main like translation, I guess, that I probably had from gymnastics to climbing would have been that like inherent body awareness that you just pick up through just hours and hours of like coordination-based stuff. I think that was probably the best takeaway for me, not necessarily any like strength-based stuff.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

I was talking to Ollie Tor, this was a while ago, and I think he had he had a little one on the way. And I don't know how how we got on this topic, but it was like this actually, no, this totally makes sense. He had a little one on the way, and he's a fantastic coach. I was basically asking him, like, what should kids, we'll say kids, uh participate in to give them like a well-rounded athletic base so that if they end up specializing, that they'll have kind of covered different bases. And I thought to myself, oh, like, you know, soccer or a football, you know, like this idea of really light on your feet. Like when I see, I see them run and dribble and then stop on a dime and just like just the amazing lower body awareness. And then I was thinking like gymnastics really gives you, especially as a male gymnastic, like a lot of upper body strength. And he totally thought about it differently, where he didn't separate the body into like a lower body or an upper body. Well he talked about, I could be butchering this, but we'll say, talked about being on something that moves, like a skateboard or skiing, maybe a bike, something like that. Um, moving something. So uh it was like, you know, throwing a baseball or, you know, like something like that. Like, yeah, or hitting something, like you are moving an object. And then when it came to gymnastics or climbing, moving yourself around a fixed object. And I was like, oh, like that's the one I did and I'm the best at. Uh, and those other things I I never really developed to the same level. And so I thought it was it's interesting to like think about what it means to be a a well-rounded athlete. It's not necessarily like upper body, lower body, or anything. It's I I thought it was a cool take by Ollie.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Yeah, it's yeah, it's just so different, isn't it? Those two, yeah, it's just a different style of movement. Going from something like gymnastics to football. There's not a whole lot of uh translation there, just the movement's so different.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Well, you found your way to climbing, and it seems like that may be the the thing that you are best suited for. Sounds like you made your way onto boards in the first four or five months. What was that intro like? And how did your fingers hold up to you know the extremes that board climbing presents compared to commercial setting usually?

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Yeah, I think I didn't jump into the deep end kind of with board climbing. I like I feel like there was a lot more of a gradual. What's the what's the best word for this? I guess in a sense, progressive overload, yeah. Ramp up.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

That's not progressive overload, very, very professional, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Um because I the center that I climbed at, the headsetter was like really good at setting super physical, basic, and like burly boulders. And I think because obviously you start on the the regular sets. So I think uh going with that and just following the regular sets and working up through them, that almost built a bit of a resistance, I guess, in my body and my fingers to that style of climbing. So that when I got onto a board, I was already somewhat adapted to the stimulus in a way.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

I hear you, but there's definitely two components to finger strength. There's muscular strength and the forearms and finger flexors, and then there's the like ligamentous tissue, you know, the tendons, the pulleys, and something that I often see in climbers is that they'll get psyched, they'll uh they'll finally like figure out how to like really crimp. Like I it takes a while to like really understand how to crimp or grab something really hard. You often see finger injuries in people around two years because they've they figured out how to really try hard and they've gained strength, but their tendons haven't caught up. Uh, so I'm just surprised. Well, actually, I should ask, have you ever had a finger injury?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Uh nothing really bad. I mean, like around this time last year, I had a bit of like pain in the middle finger knuckles, but that went away after like a month. So I don't know. I've never had anything worse than that, really. Never let it happen. Don't uh don't you ever hurt your fingers. I'll try not to. I'm usually quite careful.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

So well, it's wild to hear that too, because like I was saying, you ramped up to doing uh 8A on the boards within 11 months. I know from watching that lattice video that you know you're climbing five, six days a week, and it seems like primarily on boards. Um, so is it fair to say that your general climbing regimen is pretty finger intensive? Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Like what you were asking earlier about like how I built up from climbing on regular sets to uh getting on boards. Also, the first board that I climbed on was a like 23 degree spray wall. And I don't know, from what I remember, none of the holds got really bad on that board. Like it was a lot of like either macro sloper style things or maybe going down to like a flat 20mm edge type of crimp. So I think that did a lot to like slowly introduce my fingers into that style and like build some form of robustness. I don't understand fully how I've like managed to like escape injuries and stuff, but maybe that had something to do with it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

I mean, you know, there's a genetic component to all this stuff, and uh, you know, but with that said, you have to be careful, like you don't want to just assume you're indestructible, and also genetics typically just allow a higher workload and intensity than necessarily grant you uh instant strength. Like typically we we see like the best athletes are able to subject themselves to more and more load over time and don't get injured, and that's kind of like a hallmark for someone who is is gifted. Um and Matt, yeah, you seem kind of gifted, man. So uh tell me tell me more about as you fell in love with boards, and it seemed like you really had a section of your climbing that was really focused on it before you went outdoors, and I am surprised to hear that that love began on a 23-degree spray wall. Somehow that just sounds miserable to me, to be honest, but uh that's your start.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Yeah, it's uh I don't know. I think something about it is just so like just fun. I don't know. I think that was what it was for me. I just found it really fun, you know, scrolling through the app and just oh, there's a new boulder I haven't tried. Let's give it a go, why not? And then you add your own bits and pieces, like there'll be like a little community around the board. I found that especially for that spray wall uh that I started on. There was like a little community at that center of people just uploading stuff onto the app, which is fun, quite addictive. I think that was what got me hooked.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

And was your next step uh another kind of spray wall in in a gym, or did you start getting on this kind of like moon board or you know, standardized kind of LED boards next?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

No, so yeah, the set that same center had a uh 2017 uh moon board. So yeah, I just ended up at some point getting on that, and same again. I was like, whoa, this is this is really fun. Like you scroll through the app, and instead of like 300 problems, you've got tens of thousands.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Did you get sucked into the benchmarking like gamification side of things?

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Oh yeah, for sure. It was always like, oh, I'm like about to finish the six C's, like got one left or something, and then it would be some ridiculous six C that you're like, how how is this that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Is that how you approached it? Did you go like I don't know, you know, like six C and then six C plus. Like, did you is that how you went about like trying to do everything of a certain grade before moving on?

SPEAKER_00 19:22

I think at the start it um was like I would try a few. So you know, you get on the board, you like, okay, I'll try it. It's your first time board climbing, you're like, I'm gonna go to the easy stuff, I'll start at the bottom and just see what I can do. So I remember at the beginning I like would do a few problems of one grade, so like I think on that board it was 6A plus, maybe was the easiest. And then I would be like, Oh, maybe I should try something a bit harder. And I just kept doing that until I felt like I hit a bit of a wall, and then yeah, just worked my way back a bit.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

So was uh 2017 kind of like your first love? Like, how long did you spend on that thing?

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Uh I uh well I'm trying to remember. I don't because they changed it to a 2019 at some point. I think it was maybe like a year of climbing on that board before they changed it. But yeah, I uh I've not actually climbed on it since then, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

The 2017 is kind of like the yeah, like the forgotten one. I I've climbed not like once or twice. It seemed okay, but I've only gone deep on 2019, 2016, and now to some extent 2024. I feel bad for that 2017 set. Like some people like it, but I don't know. I I'm my personal favorite, 2019 still for the for the moon boards.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

So good. Fully agree. So I heard you say something around once you went outdoors, when you started going outdoors consistently, you really caught the bug. But I want to go to before that when it sounded like you were just fully obsessed with board climbing as an end unto itself, basically.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah. Um I think when I started climbing, it was like, and even for the first like couple of years, it was very much that was the end, you know, just climbing in the center, whatever there is there, you know, whether it be the set blocks or the boards, like that was climbing. That was the whole thing for me. I like didn't even think about the idea of you know going outdoors or anything like that. It was just I think it was partly just being a young person who was in school in London. Like I didn't have a car, couldn't drive, like didn't know anybody who could take me places. Everything's kind of far away. It didn't even it wasn't a consideration really at the time.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

So where did people think about that around you, or was that even talked about? Like I'm I'm just kinda Curious if people, I guess the reason why I want to ask about that is that I started climbing. I was really young. I was probably one of the first generation to start in a gym versus starting outside. And I remember like thinking that I just loved indoor climbing. And everyone around me made it sound like indoor climbing sucked, and it was just like the thing they had to do because they couldn't go outdoors all the time. And I was like, didn't want to, I didn't want to admit that I really loved this form of climbing, which at the time this was pre-boards, was just, you know, being in a gym, and I was just a young guy.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Yeah. I think for me it was to do with comps. It was like always the question of, oh, do you want to get into comps or like this and that? And then at some point, once I had said no, I don't want to do comps enough times, uh, yeah, people started asking about outdoor climbing and then yeah, caught my eye a bit.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

So uh yeah, tell me what it was like when you first went outdoors and how well did your skills transfer over? Uh, what was that transition like? And what did you have to kind of learn to take that success you had on boards and apply it to outdoors?

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Yeah, I mean, so the first time I went outdoors was um on the the Peak District limestone, actually. I think it was probably three years ago now. Yeah, I remember thinking, wow, this is hard. That was that was my first thought. What made it hard? It felt like like as I was saying earlier about the like friction on the peak limestone being like quite fickle. I think I just like didn't trust it at all. I was constantly thinking that either my hands or my feet were just gonna fire off and could not commit to anything. Like I it was always a situation of like, oh, I feel like I can do this, but I feel like my hands just gonna like fire off, or just couldn't get past that.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Something I notice about one of the biggest differences between indoors and outdoors, and this may be a lot in American setting too, is typically in the gym our holds are very in-cut and it gives you this like very secure, like when you're strong, you feel like very connected, um, and you can overpower things, and you go outdoors, and if it's a flat crimp and the and the friction isn't good, you have to completely change kind of your trajectory and how you do a move versus just being like, I'm gonna own this hold and just I'll do whatever I want with it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Yeah, I think it's probably fairly similar situation here in the UK. Yeah, I mean with the limestone, you do get quite a lot of really in-cut holds. It's learning that friction though. I just really remember, you know, I would feel the hold and I'd be like, this is really in-cut. I know that if this was a hold on the wall in the gym, I'd be like, yep, I've got this, you know, feel really solid on it. But something about the slick nature of the rock was just it gave me a slightly uneasy feeling. And if, like you were saying, about like feeling like you can just own the holder, just something about the friction took that away a bit.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Sometimes when I've been indoors for too long and I haven't gotten my outdoor head back on, I will literally think of a hold that I'm struggling with on my outdoor problem as an indoor hold. I'll be like, oh, this is like that technic. And I love that hold. So like just treat it like that, which is you know, probably blasphemy for people listening. But I'm just telling you a little a little trick that worked for me. So um, yeah, so yeah, tell me more about like you struggled, but um how did that progression go outside? And and I also want to know where you were at with your indoor board climbing when you were making this transition, so I can understand like what success you had already had in your climbing indoors and and how you know how far you you know, when you say hard when you went outdoors, was that hard because it was still like 8A plus, or was it like uh you know 7B or something, or or or yeah, or 6B?

SPEAKER_00 26:07

I mean, yeah, so like when I I was at a point when I went outdoors for the first time, I was at a point where I'd already done like 8A plus on a board. I was at a pretty good level strength-wise. I think my first boulder that I did was just a 7A plus, which I I think I remember uh flashing it, which was pretty cool. I was like, oh, that is cool. That is cool, good job. And then the the next thing that I wanted to try was this 7C plus called Ben's Roof. Uh it's fairly famous for people who are around this area. It's just a fairly long limestone roof problem. And I just as soon as I got pumped, I was just falling apart. Like I could not hold it together at all. My feet would go all over the place, it was just a mess. But yeah, anyway, my progression from there with outdoor climbing, like I think I went that time, and then the next time I went was probably a year after that, and I ended up doing my first 8A boulder and a couple of like other 7C, 7C plus things.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Wait, wait, wait, hold on. You went outside for your first time, flashed a 7A Plus, which is a good first, like that's that's a damn good first boulder. Didn't do a 7C plus, but that's okay, man. Those are hard. And then you didn't go for another year.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

And you climbed and you climbed an 8A that day a year later? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Like, yeah, yeah, of course. Of course I would climb a 8A. Well, um that's yeah, that uh that to me, not of course, uh that's really surprising. Um, okay, you took a year, now you're getting older. Uh what clicked for you outside and was it like a driver's license? Uh that's uh yeah, yeah. What what is it that like made you then kind of show up consistently outside?

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Yeah, so that that year, then I still wasn't able to drive. So me and some friends took a train all the way up to Sheffield, and then we stayed in the middle of the Peak District, uh, just in some like little Airbnb that we booked, and we were walking from this Airbnb to all the crags because we just yeah, didn't have a car or anything. So we were walking like 40 minutes to each of the crags, which for these crags, they're like roadside, most of them. So I don't know, to anybody that we ran into at the crag, we must have seemed a bit nuts walking 40 minutes there, but yeah, it was good.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Is that the trip that really got you psyched? Because I know those those first times just being with your buddies, staying somewhere, having like those full days out are just some of the most fun things ever. Uh is is that what is that what did it?

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Oh yeah. Yeah, it was it was just so fun. Again, though, like no driver's license yet, so it was another year before I so yeah, and a year later, I were I think then I got my driver's license, and then the day after passing my test, I drove to the Peak District uh to go climbing. It was the first thing I did right after passing, and I was like so psyched. I was like, oh, I can actually go climbing as whenever I want now. Right after that, it's kind of shot off a bit. Just being able to actually get on the rock consistently makes a massive difference.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

So you even mentioned this in the lattice video that typically your finger strength is not something that holds you back, and you know, your shoulders and and back uh strength seem to be quite excellent as well. So tell me about going out there, and as you're getting better and better and getting more time on the rock, you know, you have the finger strength, you have the shoulder strength. Like I know that rock climbing is totally different than board climbing. I know why I struggle to uh apply those strengths to rock, but I'm just kind of curious about your journey and what had to get better for you to start feeling like you could probably use that finger and back strength at full advantage versus just overpowering it or feeling like you couldn't. Yeah, like what was stopping you?

SPEAKER_00 30:30

I think it was honestly just my footwork. Like quite simply, footwork and then the body positioning that you just have to use outdoors is it's just different. Like I feel like you have to be so much closer to the wall generally to just make the holds work, especially when the grade gets a lot higher. And when you're on a board, I feel like you know you can have your hips way out from the wall and it will still run, it'll still be alright. So yeah, that was that was probably the main thing, just footwork and body positioning. But it was something that like I think improved pretty quickly with just having time on the rock. I think that was what I needed was just to be able to actually practice it. It's almost as if somebody, say, went to a normal gym, worked out their their back muscles, and they were say fingerboarding, but never climbed, and then were expecting to climb really well in an indoor center, even though they've never done it. It's like you would say they're ridiculous. I feel like it's almost a comparable.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

I agree. Uh and when I get stuck, like during COVID, I was just all on a 2019 moon board, and then I just remember going outside and just feeling jumpy and weird, like my hips were really far away from the wall, like you're talking about. I'm curious about there, there's an element of just showing up and doing it that really works, like literally just time on rock. Uh, but did you have any kind of mental tricks or drills that you would do where you would say, like, okay, like I'm all about putting my weight on my feet for this move? Like, yeah, where did your focus go when you were having troubles on these climbs? Were you really focused on like cues internally? Like, stay close to the wall, put weight on your feet. Or did you revert back to just like, oh, I'm just gonna like crimp harder? Because I often just do that. I often just go like, oh, I'm just gonna try even hard. I'm gonna grab it even harder, which is not really the answer most of the time.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Yeah, I think uh something that probably made a big difference was um I, you know, very quickly realized my ability to keep my feet on was a bit of a problem. I I kind of had to work on that. So I like just you know, I would intentionally climb boulders on the board, say, if I cut here, I've got to go from the beginning again. You know, that counts as falling off. And it just it's so simple, but it like it works. Just doing that on a variety of different types of problems, you you do learn how to like drill through your feet properly. Like it sounds simple, but it it works.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

I talked about this big breakthrough of mic climbing. I was in college and I was really strong. I was actually back to doing some gymnastics at the time. I was really uh upper body dominant, and I was climbing with these guys, Jeremy Meigs and Joel Rusher. You can look at an old podcast I did with them. Just remember them saying, like, Josh, just try to keep your feet on. And it sounded like really dumb, but I don't want to say it's that simple, but that's the first step, is like trying to keep it on. And so I I don't know, it makes sense to me that like that drill of like climb the boulder while keeping your feet on. And I think one of the subtleties there is that in board climbing, you often do dynamic moves, and keeping the foot on through a dynamic move is a whole skill unto itself of putting pressure while moving versus just I don't know, you know, waiting a foot on like a slab. Like that's definitely a different thing than what you're kind of talking about.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Yeah, for sure. It's yeah, it's such an important skill. And it's just I think that's probably a lot of the issue that people who like board climb a lot and then try and go outside run into. And it's just you've just got to put the time in and like train it like you do anything else. You know, you're fingerboarding, that's for your fingers, there you go. Do the same thing for your foot tension.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

So when you went outside and you you know had some issues with technique, how did you like mentally deal with probably having to kind of take a step back in your climbing ability compared to your buddies out there? Like, I'm guessing that you know you're crushing on the boards with your friends, you're really showcasing your strengths, you go outside and all of a sudden maybe you're not as good comparably to them as before. Like, how did you handle with kind of doing a new discipline and committing to kind of not being as good for a little while?

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Yeah, I don't know. I think I was I think I took it pretty well. I was like, I think I knew, you know, that this was quite a different thing because it felt really different, you know, when I was, you know, out there climbing outside, it felt different to what I was used to. So I think I knew that I was missing something and I had a lot of space to learn this new experience, I guess. So yeah, I I wasn't too bothered really. I was like quite happy to just keep going at it and try and improve.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

And how many days a week do you feel like, or maybe that's the wrong way of putting, what percent of your climbing over the year now seems to

Matt's Training Approach

SPEAKER_01 35:54

be outdoors versus indoors?

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Well, I think that depends like season to season. Like during the winter, all of the limestone is soaking wet. So most of the stuff that I want to like work on in project, it just you can't do it. Um so during the winter I think I'm inside a lot, probably five days a week uh training on boards. And then well, last winter I like didn't get on the gritstone at all, but um this winter I'm hoping to maybe like one day a week have a nice stay out. Not really for the purpose of projecting or anything like that. I think I just want to go out and just have some nice fun days.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Uh, when I climb outside, it makes my board climbing better. How has outdoor climbing changed your board climbing?

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Yeah, I I don't know if I necessarily noticed myself like improving on the board because of the outdoor climbing. But I think you know, if I would have a problem that was like, oh, I've been trying to keep my foot on for this or something like that, I would find that that improved, that aspect of it improved at least. Especially because like coming back to board climbing now after this whole summer of just climbing on limestone like five times a week or something. That aspect definitely improved.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

I saw in the video, actually, you just said it, that you'll spend like five or six days a week climbing. Uh, and sounds like depending on the season, that could be indoors. You showed your kind of warm-up, and then even I won't say just your warm-up, but even your normal session seemed to be a lot of repeating boulders that you have already done, and that really surprised me. Uh, can you tell me why you spend so much time repeating boulders?

SPEAKER_00 37:41

I think I'm like at a point where because I have so much access to climbing outside now, I'm really just prioritizing that. And I think sometimes knowing a boulder really well on a board, or like knowing many boulders really well, you can really get the reps in and just get so much time on the wall that it's like, you know, the training gains are like it feels like it's better that way. You just get so much more time on the wall.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Yeah, the reason why I'm surprised about that is that I always think of climbing as being such a multi-dimensional sport and each move is so different. And then moves can even change depending on the conditions, right? You know, like a move can feel so differently require you to put more weight on your feet or take a hold a little different, just depending on conditions. So when I think about quote unquote training, which maybe just shows how bad I am at training because I get bored doing the same thing, I often think about just like I want new moves that are similarly challenging, like physically and on my fingers and body, but like a plethora of movement styles, um, with the idea that I somehow am, I don't even know how it's like I'm building up like a movement repertoire with strength and technique and ability that then I can apply to whatever situation I encounter, whether outdoors or indoors. So that's why I that's why I'm surprised to to hear you like do the same thing, and that's like a training kind of thinking.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

No, I mean, yeah, for sure. I I agree, like you do need a massive variety of movement, but uh I think also something that I guess the video kind of like missed a bit, because it was you know it's kind of hard to explain, is like just how many different boulders I can sometimes go through and repeat. Like on that 50-degree board, when I scroll through the app and look at stuff that I've done, you know, it might be like a hundred different boulders that I'm scrolling through to decide what to try. And then there's also the massive spray wall just behind the like the variety of movement on that board is massive. So I I think even in repeating a lot of boulders, I still do get a lot of the variety that I need.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

So they just showed you doing perky pinky, or wait, or was it pinky perky? I don't know. Uh perky pinky probably uh actually it was both of them, actually. Magos really blew it naming it. That was that was terrible. Uh that makes it really complex. So I guess they just showed you doing that one to emphasize it because it's famous. Where does that mean that like uh like how many boulders of that ish grade will you do on a trick like a normal training session of of climbs you've already done? Yeah?

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Um yeah, I think if I'm having a session on that board, I'll probably do something like five eight B's, maybe maybe on a good day five to ten, something like that. And then a few eight A's and eight A pluses, like just something in that range.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

And so this is the like super famous what's what's is does the board have a name, or is it just in the school room? Like, is there a name for that board? Uh yeah, we all just call it the 50. The 50. The 50.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

I think it's actually 52 degrees, but sandbagging on there.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Um is there like a bunch of projects on that board that haven't been done?

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Uh not ones that haven't been done, but there are ones that haven't been repeated, like any of Aidan Roberts folders. Like that none of them have been repeated.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

So do you spend any time working on projects or are you typically just repeating claims you've done on there?

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Uh I think yes, I I do spend time on projects, but it's it's quite often projects that I've set for myself rather than stuff set by

Support From Patreon

SPEAKER_00 41:46

other people.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who help make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else, and those episodes are ad-free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay, back to the pod. So in the video, it was just you and Ollie, which is awesome. Ollie's awesome. But like, do you have like a mega crew there? I would assume that like climbing on the 50 must collect some of the most psyched, strongest people in, I mean, I would say in the world, uh, likely. Like, what's that scene like?

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Oh yeah, for sure. Uh, I think it it's very seasonal. During the summer, it was quite like empty and uh is probably the best way to put it. Um you would like go in and at most see two other people. But evenings during the winter, you'll have like five people or more sitting underneath the board, and it's just like a whole crew going on, and yeah, like you're saying, yeah, lots of strong and psyched people.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Yeah, who who's your typical climbing buddies uh on a good session?

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Oh, I train with so many different people. It's uh yeah, I d I think there's like so many people that I think we'll be here all day and just start naming.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

You're like I you're like, I don't want to leave someone out. Okay, I won't make you uh I won't make you do it. Um on on your repeat of oh man, I don't know if it's Pinky Perky or Perky Pinky. What's the one where the the foot fell off? Like oh that was pinky perky. Why did a foot fall off on Perky Pinky? Like, is the board like do they just let feet fall off?

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Like I that blew my mind. So I think so that foothold basically never gets used. I like I I never see anyone use it. It's I don't think it's actually on a screw. I think it was literally just sitting on a nail. Um and it was just Shoved into a screw hole so it would spin. And like I think, yeah, in the video, I say, like, oh, that's the first time I've kicked that one out. Like it spins every time I use it, but uh yeah, I just happen to have never actually like flicked it out of the wall. I can't believe no one just screws it on to make it stop spinning. That's wild. Yeah, yeah. Just adds to the charm, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Yeah, the charm. I like that. That's that's the way I look at it. Um, what did you guys think when uh Noah Wheeler came into town and had a session there? Because I remember I think I did a board talk with him right after that, and he had a freaking blast. Uh, it just sounded like really, really fun. Like, I feel like I of course I had heard about the 50, but the fact I didn't even know its name showed I didn't really know much about it. Uh and it had this like iconic idea in my head about it, but then it really like was cool to see Noah go out there and kind of put it back on my radar. I was like, damn, that's a lot of hard boulders. Um, were you around when Noah visited?

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Yeah, yeah. I was, yeah. I actually was the one who climbed into the school that day.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Uh wait, did I miss you on that video? Did I just am I misremembering I didn't see you climbing with them? Yeah, maybe you're misremembering because yeah. Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

All right. Sorry. Yeah, I must be in the video. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

There was too many strong people. You were just one of the strong, amazing guys on there. Yeah, well, tell me what that was like from your perspective.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Yeah, it was really cool. Um, yeah, he's a beast. I don't think anybody needs to hear me say that, but yeah, he's I think it was it was quite funny to watch because I feel like in some ways it just I'm just not used to seeing somebody new try those boulders. So it was like it was cool to have have him in there and be like, oh give this a go, give that a go. You know, it it's not something that happens very often. I think that was the best bit, just being able to like show somebody around and like share it, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

Can we get some kind of like UK versus US board lords? Like I either we you guys need to come out to Colorado and do something over at Tension, and then maybe they need to fly and do something at at the school room and just on the 50 or something. I feel like the internet would just it would explode if that happened. We'd be very, very, very exciting. Uh yeah, well, speaking of Noah, that title of the Lattice video is like the strongest fingers we've ever tested. Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about because Noah also probably very strong fingers. Um, what'd that mean? Like the strongest fingers that you've ever tested. Like, what do they what did Lattice do when they tested your fingers that they then you know said this is stronger than I don't know. Name name your pro that they've tested.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Yeah, so we did three different tests. This was I think this testing was three years ago when I um initially That's a long time ago. Yeah, well, wait, hold on, sorry, sorry, I totally interrupted.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

I really want to hear this. Are they making that claim based on the testing you did three years ago, or did they retest you recently?

SPEAKER_00 47:17

No, I haven't been retested since then. I I was supposed to be retested like this time last year, but as I was saying earlier, uh I had like some stuff going on with my middle fingers, so it just didn't end up happening. So that testing that they talk about was three years ago, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Oh my gosh, dude. Okay, tell me what uh the testing was. And forgive me if this was all public and I just missed like the Instagram or whatever. Um, or yeah, just like what did they test you on, and how significant was your level over and above again, pick your amazing pro climber uh the UK, like Will Bosey or someone.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

Yeah, it was yeah, you didn't miss anything, it was it was never posted online or anything. It was there was no video that came from it. Um yeah, so we did uh three different types of tests. So there was the rate of force development, which is just purely like I don't remember what percentage of your max force they're testing for. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was something like the amount of time it takes for you to go from producing zero force to like I think it was maybe 80% of your max uh force on a 20 mil edge. There was also the I'm pretty sure critical force is what they call it. Uh it's that's like an endurance-based test. So you get the 20 mil edge, you do seven seconds pulling as hard as you can, three seconds off, seven seconds on, three seconds off for like I think it's something like two minutes. Miserable. Yeah, it's it's horrible. Honestly, like most painful climbing related thing that I've had to do. But yeah, that's supposed to like effectively give a an amount of force that you could effectively produce for a very long sustained time. Um and then the test that they always referred to uh was just a pure like it would pull down on the edge for five seconds and they uh would mark on the graph the highest force that they recorded and would like plot it in based off of uh my body weight. So it would come out as a percentage. Do you remember what that percentage was? I think it was maybe just over 140% body weight. I think.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Um one arm on a to I would have had that percentage tattooed on me or something, dude. Just everyone knew on my back. So when I took off my shirt and climbed, people could know who it was. Just old 148. Um yeah, that's uh that's interesting. Uh I just can't believe it was three years ago. Um, what's it like from your perspective where you know you have like Tom Tom Randall saying something like, This guy clearly can climb 9A? Um, and then three years ago you do this test, and they probably were like, dude, Matt, your fingers are really, really strong. Uh like what do you feel like where everyone's like, oh dude, you can do anything. Um, but then that's not the same thing as doing it. You know, like just because you have that potential, like, do you feel like pressure from that? Or what's it like having everyone say to you, like, oh dude, you can climb 9A? It's like, okay, we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Yeah, I think, yeah, it is kind of a bit of uh an okay will see type of situation, but in a w in a way, that's kind of a goal of mine, you know. I I just want to improve as much as possible. So if I'm at HC now, like I'm hoping that I can improve a bit more and we'll see where where it goes. Yeah, it just takes the time to like actually go for it and really put put my head down and project something, you know. But yeah, I d I don't really think I feel too much of the like pressure of other people talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Do you want to be a professional climber? I I should point out that you are in school studying theoretical physics, is that correct? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm a university student. Yeah. So are you studying physics to somehow help your climbing? Is that was that the goal? No, that that would be cool if it helped at all, but I don't think it was. I don't know. Understanding like basic movement and how things work. And I I think it's fine. We were just talking the podcast I did with Good Tempts. We were talking about this idea of like strength and technique and intuiting movement versus like rationally understanding it and like being able to bounce back and forth. And sometimes like we're talking about a volume, and it's like it feels better to stand on a volume or a foot that's like further away from the wall because it basically makes the wall less steep. Yeah, but like knowing why you want to stand there or choosing, like, oh, maybe the foot in the wall is really good, and the foot away, you know, further away from the wall is really bad. And then understanding, like, well, what do I need out of this move? Like, I think that there is something good about understanding the forces and why technique works the way it does, and being able to make reasonable guesses is actually useful. I think that's it's part of climbing. It's like intuitive, but also be able to understand why something works.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Yeah, for sure. I think though there are a lot of people, especially at the top end of the sport, who that intuition goes beyond actually understanding why it works. They just know it does um through experience. And I think to an extent that's more important. It's yeah, it's always easier when you have that intuition rather than having to like sit down and actually really think about it. If you've got the intuition, it comes to you straight away, and you don't have to spend that time thinking about it. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

I 100% agree. I uh I started climbing as a little kid, and I kind of took a break in my teenage years, and when I got back into climbing, I just only had intuition. Like I didn't understand why things worked or didn't work. And I actually really enjoyed that side of climbing of just feeling and like not even knowing why and letting myself be surprised. Uh, but then there is a side of it where if I can't communicate why something works, I feel like I understand it even more so when I break it down, like, oh, that like heel hook worked because of this, versus just it felt good. And maybe it's just the kind of nerdy climbing side to me where maybe it's just better to just always develop more and more intuition. But I like to understand it too. Like I just enjoy, I enjoy the physics behind it, man.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

I mean, when you under actually understand it, I feel like I guess in a way it you feel like you've unlocked something in a sense. Whereas the intuition, it's sometimes just feels like blind faith.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

One of the tricks there is that while it's good to make educated guesses based on understanding physics, I guess. I I think where people go wrong and don't appreciate what a session is like on really hard moves, is the the best climbers seem to have just like a willingness to try all sorts of things. Just things that look crazy, but then try it in a way that like they assume it works in the sense that they don't like you don't put a foot all crazy and then just half ass it. It's like you have to like commit to whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Yeah, yeah. Isn't that interesting? I love that part. Yeah, I mean, there's no point in like trying something if you're not gonna actually give it your own, is it? Yeah. Yeah. What info are you getting then?

SPEAKER_01 55:00

Yeah, you get nothing. Okay. Uh Matt, your your video was just, it was it was the big news uh this month. That's why I'm glad I got to uh have you come on and tell me about it. Uh because yeah, dude, last I looked, it was like 150,000 views. That's yeah, you're famous, Matt. You are you now walk around in your theoretical physics class and just people recognize you? Just like, oh no, no.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

That's that guy with the strong feeling. Unfortunately not. Well, maybe fortunately not. I'd think that'd be quite quite weird to go into union. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

Unless it was your professor and they just actually know, then they'd then they'd call on you and ask you dumbass questions like I asked about like should you have more rubber on the volume or not? God. Um

Mejdi and Sam Richard Do 20 8B's In A Day

SPEAKER_01 55:45

well, one of the other biggest uh things I saw out there on the internet this month was I saw Medji and Sam do 28 B's in a day. 28 B's in a day. Um, I think they were new for them too. That was kind of like the gist I got. Uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

You'll know I was thinking, like, I'm not so sure. It kind of because like what I was thinking watching that is um because there were some that Medji did and he would be like, Oh, I'm glad I got that on my first go kind of thing. And I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

Dude, this goes back to like our first goer was a flash.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

Maybe he was uh yeah, yeah, okay, interesting. I think they I I have a feeling he he had done at least a lot of them before, which doesn't really take away from how impressive it is, but well, that's why I asked you that almost like foreshadowing question about how many climbs of that grid you might do in a session, even if they're you know repeats.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

Uh, because 28 bees is a lot. And by the way, I I I was watching it and I like went to session. I tried one of the climbs that really looked like my style. It was called something like Goldfish.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

God, what was it? Oh, I I've actually tried that one. Yeah. The one on the TV too.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

Yeah, yeah. At 50. And I watched it and I was like, oh, like that looks good. And I tried it, I was like, dude, this is it's hard. Like, it is freaking hard. And uh Mech D is not super long, and I definitely have reached on him. I thought, oh, like he looks spanned out. Like, I like those holds. Like, maybe I'll have a good time on it. It was hard, dude. It was so hard. I was really impressed. Um, good job. Uh Mechy is just one of one of 20. And they did nine, nine on the TB2, 11 on the kilter. It took them all day. Um, and I thought it was funny that they said it was a like a rest week for them. It was like they're like, yeah, uh, but then the other thing that surprised me is that they're they're both French competitive athletes, and they made a comment like boards aren't that popular in France. Uh, which, yeah, it was right at the beginning. He was like, Yeah, you know, like we don't climb on boards that much in in France. I was like, well, you just fit like a whole year's session into one day. Yeah, what did you think of that video? What jumped out at you as being uh impressive or exciting?

SPEAKER_00 58:13

I I just think their ability to like go at it so much throughout, you know, starting from what was it? Like it was 12 hours, they were like it was 11am to 11 p.m. That's that's crazy. Like I don't know about you, but if I say have a session, like a proper length session, and stop and then try and warm up again later in the day, it just it always feels off. Like something doesn't feel quite right. Um, yeah, I I thought that was probably the most impressive part about it to me.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

When I'm having a big session and I'm feeling good, I feel like I feel just great the whole time. I'm like not tired. I always want to have another go. Sometimes I just call it because I'm just like, I don't know. Typically, it's like my friends are done. Um, or I just can't, even though I'm trying really hard, I just feel like I'm lacking that little extra oomph. And then I stop and I just feel wrecked. Like just wrecked. The idea that I could go back later that day, it just seems insane to me. And then do 11 8Bs on the kilter board. That's a lot. It's crazy. Did you see that Sam just posted a new 14 slash 15 on the TB2? He like just posted either this morning or yesterday. Oh no. Yeah, he just posted like a new climb. He called it a slasher and said something like, you know, people probably think this is V14, but like outdoors, it would definitely be V15. Um, and something that made me think about is like it's so interesting how on the boards, like Sam didn't do all 20, but he did, I don't know, like 14 or something. Yeah, he did plenty of. Yeah. And it's like those are V13 or 8B or whatever. And there's like no way they could have done that with V14, let alone V15. Like, I I don't think it would have been like the equivalent would have been like three of them or something, or two, like doing like two or three V14s in a day. Like I see all these hard volume updates all the time, but they kind of stop at 8B. Like, you know what I mean? Like, no one's doing 20 V14s in a day. Like, why do you think it's like the the fall-off is like extreme there?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

Well, I think part of it is to like have that session to do that many, right? These 8Bs are like, you know, they're obviously trying really hard, but they're still quite within their capabilities. So it gives them sort of a certain amount of margin where if they're feeling a bit tired, they can still make it work. Whereas I think when you step the grade up from there, especially on a board where people are very, very reserved with their grading, you know, for it to be a 14, it's gotta be like pretty nuts. Just doing one of them alone is gonna be attempts upon attempts, and it's gonna take you loads of time.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:11

Yeah, anytime I see V14 get posted on a board on Instagram, it seems like a big deal. Where somehow V13, I mean, it's like people are like, well, I flashed like five of the yeah, I can't remember. Andra did, you know, a ton of them uh the first time he was on TV too. And it's just funny how like something about going from 13 to 14, like, what is that great? Like, what is going on there? And that was actually some of the some of the patrons wanted to hear your your thoughts on grading at that level on boards. And I thought it was in would be interesting to hear your thoughts too, because you're now in those grades outdoors, and so it's like you came from doing those grades indoors on boards consistently, and now you're doing them outdoors, and just what's

The Upper End Of Board Grades

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

your thought about the upper end of board grading and how it relates to that similar grading outdoors?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

The upper end of board grading is like, in my opinion, at least, so much harder than like the I guess equivalent grades outside. So, like a 14 on a board is way harder than doing a V14 outside. Like it's like I don't know, I don't think I've done a V14 on a board. I don't think there's really a comparison there. I think people are way more, you know, because outdoors V14 isn't the pinnacle of the sport. It's like we've still got a few more grades after that, you know. So people aren't like shy to be realistic about it. But then on a board, people are like they're brutal. They're brutal. They're just like they're like, no, no, I could do it, so it's not 14. Right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:54

I like that how if it's doable, like literally, like that seems to be like, oh, it goes, so it it can't be that hard. That's like basically like what the it's like that's the checkpoint is oh it goes. Well, we'll just call it a 14. Is there any 14s on the 50? Or 8b pluses, I should say?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

I think that's one, but it's not like when you look at the app, it's not um on there as 14 anymore because some random person logged it and gave it 7-0. So uh yeah, it was one of uh Aiden's ones. I think he had put it up as 14, but

UK Vs. American Board Culture

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:34

Do you have any insight on what you think might be the differences between like the UK style on boards compared to the American style? And I don't think you've climbed out here on our spray walls, so I don't want to make that comparison, but you've clearly climbed on the tension board, you know, and and there's the kilture board as well. I feel like, you know, whether we realize it or not, like if we make a board here in America, of course we're gonna have somehow some kind of bias or style built into it, because how could we not? That's you know, just us. Um and yeah, what stylistic differences do you see, if any, between the UK, either their spray walls or their standardized boards, and the American ones?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

Well, it's hard to hard to say really. Um, because I think you know, anyone that's climbed on a moon board and a tension board can very easily say there's quite a big difference between the two. You know? Um very stylistically different. But yeah, then in terms of like spray walls in the UK and how they compare to maybe the likes of the tension board, there's so much variety. Like sometimes you'll go to a centre and the spray wall will be loads of crimps and only a few macros, and then other times it will be very clearly a competition climber oriented like spray wall with loads of macros and so it's I think there's quite a lot of variety. The only time that I've seen like something that I just from what I've heard doesn't seem to be anywhere else is like the London style of spray walls, where they like I don't think you get it so much, but from what I've heard it used to happen a lot. There's there's a few that still are around here and there. But you would basically they have you know your normal spray wall at like 40 degrees, and instead of setting the spray wall like you normally would and just putting holds all over the place kind of thing, they set like actual problems up the the wall, and then the density of actual set problems makes the spray wall, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:46

Yeah, I heard that on the careless talk with Michael Rosado, where they basically stole board talk. Thanks, you guys. Uh and I heard them talk about doing that style, and it's it's interesting. Um Uh yeah, I I don't know if I've ever, yeah, that is not the way I've seen spray walls set here. Um, but it it makes me feel like it would be easier to make up problems because something that uh you know, if you're on a spray wall, it just has like tons of holds and they're all crazy and different, sometimes it's hard to like remember a climb or it's hard for me to set a climb. And typically the way I set on spray walls is I see some kind of theme that I want to pull out. Like I see, look at that yellow pinch and that other yellow pinch from the same set. Like, can I go between them? And I feel like if you set a spray wall by putting up problems until it was filled in, you'd probably see these kind of patterns emerge that you could kind of riff on that you'd be like, oh, like use those yellow holds only that are of that same pore. And you can kind of like I don't know, I I guess that's how I set on spray walls, because there's something hard to me about just picking holds that are like really different and disparate. I like pulling out some pattern, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:08

Yeah. No, I think those boards are just they're just so they might be some of the most fun style of board that I've ever climbed on. Um, it's just the experience of like coming up to the board and being like, okay, let's just see which ones of the set boulders I can do. You know, and you just it's kind of the same as like going around a center and you know, just trying to tick off the new set or something like that. But it's all board style and it gets reset every now and then, the same as your normal set. But then once you're done with it, you've still got a spray wall left over. It's I think it's really good.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:48

So there's always these little micro communities that arise around a board. Like you were talking about your first experience on like a 23-degree spray wall, and that there was like problems to do on there that you could, you know, browse and and choose. Uh I feel like especially in America now, like the standardized LED boards have really taken just the majority of people's effort and feelings towards boards. But is it like that in the UK? Like, I guess what would be more sought after? Doing pinky perky, which is an 8B, or Black Beauty, which is an 8B, and you know, that's on the 2016 moon board. You know, that's kind of like well, that's it, that's a really iconic climb, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:34

I think it would be quite split, honestly. I think you wouldn't struggle to find people who would say perky pinky for sure. I think you could probably probably find a lot of people who would rather do that. Yeah, I think me personally as well. Before I had done Perky Pinky, I probably would have said that. I don't know. I think the history of the 50 just has so much draw to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:58

Yeah, it makes me sad to think that I I would say probably Perky Pinky because of that history, but I just feel like as I project into the future, like I mean, Black Beauty has a similar, I mean it's on the 2016. It was Daniel Woods, it was training for lucid dreaming. Like, it's got a story and a history, and like I just it makes me a little sad to think that you know we're going to lose some of those like iconic mini communities around. Maybe, maybe not, maybe they'll always be there. But like something like Perky Pinky has literally worldwide appeal, and and videos like you know, that one where Noah went and like really dove into it, and then the lattice one where you guys are like showing the hold, you know, and knocking feet off, uh you know, like builds that story more. Um, and I don't want to lose that. Like, I feel like there's something really cool about that, but I also like the idea that I mean Black Beauty is iconic in its own right, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:58

Oh yeah. Also really, really hard. I can't do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:03

Really? Are you more of a crimper or are you a pincher?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

Probably crimp. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I just always found the the first part like I guess once you've like got into this undercut, actually putting the foot up and pulling into it. I just yeah, no, never even come close.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:25

You know what's hilarious about that climb is that like there's people who will do it and then they'll do it without putting their thumb in the bolt hole on the you know, on that undercling, and then there's people who will do it without like matching it to, you know, like you can do it. I just love the idea that people are like making eliminance in the most subtlest of ways. Yeah, like yeah, the idea of like not using the bolt. I don't know, I just like you gotta be obsessed to be like, I did Black Beauty, I want to do it again, and now again, like each time like ticking off like the most minor variances of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:01

Yeah, it's it's quite fun having those little challenges though. They they can be weirdly like good for getting psyched. I don't know. Something to go for.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:12

I feel like you do it because your buddies still working on it and you don't know you like want to be climbing with them. You know what I mean? Like you want to be like with them, but you've already done it, so you like do something to up it a notch, so you're still hanging out, uh having fun. Or just to want to up them, either way. Yes, yes. That's actually, let's face it, nothing more fun. Yeah. Okay, Matt, I have some I have some good uh bonus questions for you. If you want to hear that QA and other extra behind the scenes content from this episode and others, head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad-free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow, please share this episode with someone who would love it. Okay, see you next week.