Good Temps #18 — Climbing In Baseball Stadiums, Ondra On Exodia V18, and The Flatanger Double Clutch

Intro

SPEAKER_03 0:00

In two thousand five, I went to the Beijing Youth World Championships and we had forerunners that would show us how to climb the roots because a bunch of the roots are flash format. And he was the forerunner for all of our roots, and he was 13 years old at the time. And he would just he he would he would just send them all like in front of us. Like he would it would be like, oh, here's here's the route you guys are gonna compete on, and then watch this 13-year-old kid just climb the whole thing. And then we'd get up there and everyone, and you know, like I had like Magnus in my category and like, you know, barely sending it, and 13-year-old Jakob, who was too young to compete in youth worlds at the time, was just sending all of the roots, you know, and I'm like, damn.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Welcome to the Test Piece podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Good temps number 18 with an entirely full house. We've got Carlo, Will, Allison, Austin, me. Uh, good to see you guys. This is our year and a half anniversary. That's how 18 works. Twelve months is a year, six months, half a year. We've been doing this for a year and a half, you guys. Uh happy 18th anniversary. I don't know what that is. We're not gonna do anything special. No, this is special. We're all here. It is, it is. Oh, uh, you know what else was special is Austin, you came on and did a podcast just me and you, bud. Um, so for all you Austin fans that want that younger generation view, uh, we did podcasts. It went viral too. It was very popular, it was more popular on YouTube than the good temps one. So, Austin, you're the star. You're carrying the whole thing. No big deal.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

Nice. My grandpa really liked that pod, so it was great. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Are we older than your grandpa somehow?

SPEAKER_04 2:21

Uh no, not yet.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Well, uh good to see you guys. I know we're coming from all over. Uh

Will’s Trip To Squamish

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Will, you're you're not home. You are you're somewhere else. You're in Airbnb. Where are you?

SPEAKER_05 2:32

I'm in I'm in Allison's home. I'm in Canada.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 2:37

Yeah. Yeah, I'm in Squamish. I I leave tomorrow, actually, though.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

So oh uh, how long have you been there?

SPEAKER_05 2:44

I have been here since the fifth. 24 days. It's pretty good. Sick. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

I thought you were in a van. How come you're how come you're looking clean cut and in Airbnb?

SPEAKER_05 2:57

Well, we got an Airbnb for the talent. I I was in the van. But the rest of the team. We got a big Airbnb, and then uh the the deluxe part about it for me was that I got to park at the Airbnb and uh shower every day, which is the ultimate luxury. So um I'm psyched. And now in the Airbnb recording this.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

So yeah, you're looking looking a little too clean to be staying in that van full time. You look like you even combed your hair for the podcast, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:29

I I don't know, man. I I kind of messed the time up. I've been awake for 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

I don't know if you know this, but Canada does time just like the US. It's it's really they do it just like us. It's not easy.

SPEAKER_05 3:44

Now I now I know that. I thought the clocks were different. It was like a metric clock. They were only 10 hours. I got a little I got a little messed up.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

So I uh I was on a a little dude moon, we call a little boys' trip up to Whistler a week or two ago. I was mountain biking. I was not climbing, I was mountain biking, which is pretty fun, really dangerous, you guys. Just want you to know. Very, very dangerous. On my way back to the airport, I stopped in Squamish for a solid two hours, maybe three hours, but got to to climb a little bit. I went out on what's that road that is like to the farm and uh what what's that like that dirt road? Oh, it's now kind of paved. Do you know what I'm talking about? Big dirt road? What's it called? Just tell me, tell me the road name.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

I don't know the name of it. It's just the Forest Service. I know the road.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Yeah. Awesome. Okay, that makes me feel better. Okay, I was like, everyone's gonna know. There were cars just non-stop for, I don't know, like a mile, like just completely lined, like just car after car after car after car after car. I've never seen anything like it. Uh, and lo and behold, when I went into the forest, there was people in there too. They though those cars had people and they were climbing. Uh, and it just was uh uh something I don't think I'm used to in outdoor climbing. There was a level of crowd there that I don't know if I like I feel like it changes what it means to climb outdoors when there's that many people. It's not what I'm used to. And yeah, I'm just is that has it been that busy for you too, Will?

SPEAKER_05 5:20

I mean, I was talking to some locals when I I first got here. I I don't remember what day I got in, but I was like, dang, it's I'd only been here once before and I didn't really climb. I was injured the whole time. Classic. But uh they were saying, yeah, like it's noticeably the busiest season they've ever had. There are a lot of people, a lot of people in the woods, especially on the weekend. Um, and Allison, I owe you an apology publicly. Because I've been I've been off I've been off doing kind of my own thing for like five years almost. I just haven't been in like a a popular climbing area in a long time. And it was uh it made an impact. Uh also a lot of amazing things. I don't wanna it's not all doom and gloom, but yeah, had had a few experiences uh where it's like, dang, okay, like people definitely are acting in a particular way that I'm not sure that I super agree with. Uh yeah, it's really busy.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Tell me about some of the really, really cool climbs uh that you got to either try or do or just Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_05 6:34

So coolest coolest things uh about the trail. I I got to do like a I just hiked around a bunch and and got to explore. Um found this gor. I mean, found is a strong word. I I don't like when people like act possessive over boulders. It's just a rock that was like by the side of the road, by a river, by stuff people have already done like mil uh plenty of people have walked by and looked at it. Um but I wrapped down it and I cleaned it and like chalked it up and it's started building a landing. And it's like a generational project. I'll never do it. I don't know, maybe Adam could do it. Uh, but it is like on perfect river polished stone, like Brione style. Um, but like in Brione, I feel like when you get the rock like that, it's the boulders are way more just kind of round, and so you end up in a particular style. But this is like a proud like 45 um, but with that like perfect river stone that looks like 8C or 8C plus into this like 8B plus, maybe harder like corner section with like crazy knee bars into like this immaculate, like probably V10-ish top out on this by like kind of over the river. Like you I think you'll land, like you'll be fine. And if you land in the river, like that would be sick. It's so deep. Like you it would actually be kind of fun. And anyway, that got me really excited. Uh, I got to climb the Method, which has always been kind of like a legendary boulder in my mind. I remember watching like a video of Jason Cale doing it uh a long time ago, and yeah, to actually climb on that, I was like, oh my god, like I that might be my favorite boulder at Boulder Problem at like the whole Grand Wall Apron main zone. I feel like it's so it's so good in a style that I at least have not ever really climbed anything that climbs like that that's that good, that's like a rock. You know, like it's super, super unique to have that sort of setup of features, that kind of style at that difficulty. Like it's just a really cool piece of stone, and I just freaking had such a good time climbing on it. Uh yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Even Gumbies can climb those V12s method. Um okay. Speaking of uh Alamondra and next level boulders, I don't know if you guys heard, but uh the world's greatest podcast uh broke the news that Alamandra has in fact tried Exodia, the proposed V18. Came out just a few days ago. I did a podcast with Elias Yagneba. Awesome dude, by the way. Just absolutely awesome dude. Uh really had a good time getting to know him. And man, does that guy love climbing? Just I don't know, for anyone who hasn't listened to the episode or doesn't listen to the episode, the guy is just a climber's climber. Just when he talks about his experience on Exodia or anything in the woods or climbing related, the guy just is out there doing his thing. I mean, he put 200 sessions, over 200 sessions in the one boulder. So you can tell he just loves what he's doing. And the the other thing they said that really got me that I've been thinking about a lot is he just said that his kind of superpower was that he just always believes he can do a boulder. If he finds a boulder, he's like, I can do it. And uh I guess you have to have that belief if you're willing to climb something for over 200 sessions. Uh, but you know, we were all kind of waiting and hoping to see other people get on Exodia. It sounds like Almondra has made some good links. Um, I know that the season there is closing pretty soon. Like it's a high altitude, the the road gets shut or or it gets slippery with ice. So I don't know what the future holds, but uh it was just cool to hear that you know Adam checked it out and had some good links, and you know, maybe we'll hear more about uh Exodia as a whole. And and the other thing that came out is that he pretty much used the same beta. And so did other people that have tried the boulder. And big credit to Elias for figuring out some of the you know the best beta on a boulder that long and that featured and that hard. Um, because you know it you get into your little rut after 200 sessions, it's hard to you know know that you are finding the right way. But I just thought that was pretty big news, you guys, that Alam's out there trying Exodean. You know, uh good luck to him.

SPEAKER_05 11:13

That's so sick. I I know of a few other people who are psyched on it as well, and I really hope like I'm excited to see more of the boulder. Like we saw that Sportiva video, and like some people have gone out and shot it, but I still don't feel like I have like a super good visual representation of like what that boulder looks like, the line, the setting. Um I'm psyched to like just see more of that rock.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

I hope Adam makes like a casual YouTube vlog about it, because that's my favorite style of content that he makes.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

So dude, his his production team is just next level. It's so good. Uh him and I think Jakob Schubert also just putting out some of the best. Just it it's uh it's a new level of production that I don't know, it just makes me feel like climbing school. Like, I mean, real rock back in the day or dosages, like that was pretty cool. But just seeing that professionalism and the quality that's put out, I don't know, it just makes me proud. Proud of it, and then it drives tons of crowds out there to try those boulders too.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Um yeah, his uh Jacobs Mount Doom video was also awesome. I just watched

Jakob Schubert Releases Footage Of Mount Doom V17

SPEAKER_00 12:19

that this week. If people haven't seen that one, I thought it was really it was like a good he had some good storytelling going on uh with all the different things. So I thought that was a really good video too.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Crazy that Yanya broke it. I didn't realize that it got broken and that, you know, I don't know, just cool that also his beta uh at post break was incredible. That knee scum, like he calls it a knee bar, it didn't look like a knee bar, and then I don't know, the way he climbs, yeah, man. Yeah, I really like that video too.

SPEAKER_04 12:48

I feel like Jakob has been making everything look kind of easy.

SPEAKER_05 12:51

He's one of my favorites. I've like gushed about him before, but like yeah, I think he's one of my favorite just general kind of performance climbing athletes. Like that he sort of started or like has been at the top of the game since like the early 20 teens and managed to like learn the new style, compete well in the Olympics, still climb hard, like at a world-class cutting-edge level in sport and bouldering and comp climbing, and he's and departs. And he's in his mid-30s, like as someone who's like kind of falling apart. Like, it's just so impressive to me. Uh like to have been able, like that particular chunk of climbing history to be able to kind of maintain a top level across that is um, I think super impressive and kind of underrated. Like only because he's so strong and everything, like everyone focuses on everything that he's doing because it is sick and it is still cutting edge. But like if you look at his career like all the way across, I think it just is even more impressive. I just think he's a it's cool.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

He's been doing it for a very, very, very long time. He uh actually in 2005, I went to the Beijing Youth World Championships, and we had forerunners that would show us how to climb the roots because a bunch of the roots were flash format, and he was the forerunner for all of our routes at and he was 13 years old at the time, and he would just he he would he would just send them all like in front of us. Like he would be like, Oh, here's here's the route you guys are gonna compete on, and then watch this 13-year-old kid just climb the whole thing. And then we'd get up there and everyone, and you know, like I had like Magnus in my category and like you know, barely sending it, and 13-year-old Jakob, who was too young to compete in youth worlds at the time, was just sending all of the roots, you know, and I'm like, damn. I was like, who is this little kid? And then of course a couple years later, you know, he's like winning, winning, starting to win comps and stuff, and that's you know, that's a long time ago, like over, you know, over 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

So I heard that he's heading to the Ramarill cave in the Verdun Gorge to try DNA uh that 9C that Seb put up, and then I read online uh I I don't know how true this is, but I wouldn't be surprised that they're going to do some live streaming like they did on uh BIG, uh, which is kind of interesting. And boy, was that a wild moment live streaming a 9C Cent with a hold breakage. Like uh what do you guys think of that new style of media?

SPEAKER_04 15:29

I think it makes sense for uh sport climbing, more so than bouldering for sure, like live streaming a one long attempt, especially on some like BIG. I don't know if I would like necessarily enjoy doing it, but someone like Jacob, but it seems like I watched his like movie about it. It seems like he enjoys it, he's good at it, and like other people enjoy it. So I don't think there's like anything inherently or there's there's nothing bad about it. I think it's cool that he's sending the hardest sport climbs live. Like I I thought it was extremely entertaining.

SPEAKER_05 16:01

Yeah, I'm more I'm more worried about crack behavior than live streaming uh sense. Like I I think it's I as long as it's not like encroaching on other people doing their thing, like hell yeah, go for it. It's cool.

SPEAKER_04 16:16

The thing I think is uh is kind of interesting about him saying he's gonna live stream DNA is he uh mentioned on the careless talk pod that he thought that was the hardest one for him, I think. I'm pretty certain he said that. And so it's kind of gonna be cool. Maybe it'll be like a big battle. Kind of surprised to hear that.

SPEAKER_05 16:32

Yeah, I would have thought I I feel like that uh what Bosey is working on silence, which he just posted that video of him like linking through the crux, which is freaking sick. Like that that seems like a daunting crux to like have to wire um and and just straight up learn even the first time. Like it just seems I I mean, maybe depending on different skill sets or whatnot, like it'd actually be really interesting to see Connor climb that.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Uh I think a better skill set would have a much easier time on that. Because even watching those videos um of other people trying that crack section, you can just tell that they're they're even with their footwork in a crack, it's just not up to par with what I've seen much less strong climbers um capable of doing in crack sections. And um, and even with the toe hooking and like, and I do think like I've toe hooked in those uh high angles that um that Will's using, and they work. They're not good, in my opinion, at toe hooking as well as other shoes. Whereas like an Andre comp is gonna be a lot more effective, I think, in those situations. And so, you know, obviously he can't just be throwing on whatever shoes he wants to, but like I I do think that there's a map. I mean, I know I can't toe hook on the big island with another pair of shoes other than the Andre comp nearly as well, you know. And so I I do think that there's some maybe some some things holding back um, you know, on the technical side that that would be helpful. And and a crack section, I mean, there are people that are much, much better at crack climbing that are out there. And I think to find somebody that can pair up all of those things, yeah, is is is not a good thing. Adam's good crack climbing. Adam's I'm not talking about Adam, I'm talking about everyone else that's tried it after. Yeah, Pietro would be cool on that, I think. That'd be awesome. Oh, that'd be good. Oh, yeah, yeah. He'd he'd he'd do really well, I bet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:30

He was here. I got to watch him climb in person, and it was like pretty rad. He's really good. Yeah, he's really good.

Jules Marchaland's 9b+ Dyno FA In Flatanger

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Uh in Flat Yanger, other news, saw Jules Marchon do Marshallon, do King Kang, I think he called it, which was from his comment, sounded like one of the few undone that was previously bolted lines. I I know that there's a ban over there, but it must have been, I wonder who bolted it, but he called it uh 9b plus. Uh, but what's interesting is it's just like a one mover. I mean, I think it's still uh a really long route because everything there is didn't he say it was like 9A or 9A plus into the dyno? So I wouldn't call that a one mover necessarily, but that's just a warm-up, uh the warm-up 9A, dude. And you gotta get your blood moving.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

Maybe I read it wrong, but that it sounded like a 9A or 9A plus into like an 8B dyno, and I'm like, that's not a one mover. Like, yeah, maybe it comes down to doing the one move, but I'm like that's not like a V, you know, 511 into like a V14 dyno, you know, or something like that. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

The reason why I wanted to bring it up actually is because uh you know it's kind of like a a different sort of 9B plus. Like uh, you know, whether or not it's he claims he called it a one mover, and so let's just go on that in the sense of like it was had a very distinct crux move versus that really consistent long sport climbing style that I don't know, I think of when I think of those really hard routes. And he also recently, maybe like a year ago, opened that like 9B that he talked about having like a V12 or V13 kilter board boulder in the middle. And just I thought it was so it's so interesting that he's doing these climbs that I just think I don't know, are a little atypical. Like they are defined by a boulder or a single move uh instead of like a consistent endurancy route. And I mean, obviously he's a great sport climber. He also he was the first guy at Flash V15, if I remember correctly. Could be second person.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

Second or first? I thought Yannick was first, I thought. Yeah, if Foundation's edge.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Oh, that's right. And then he did the the power of now of power of now direct. Direct, direct. Anyways, clearly the guy, and you know, he may have been a board lord also. Yeah, clearly the guy knows how to boulder and do single hard moves, but it's just kind of cool seeing that that type of climbing ability applied to big sport routes that are really hard. And I just hope we see more of it. I thought it was really cool.

SPEAKER_04 20:57

I I'm super into the the boulder style of sport. That's why Rumney is, I mean it's closing, but also that's why it's super intriguing to me because it's just like do 511, do V13, do 511. I'm like, that's that's the kind of sport climbing I want to do.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

A Bill Clinton project waiting for you? Spoken spoken like a true boulderer. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:18

No, I I think it's really I'm super intrigued by these sort of like interesting, almost interdisciplinary type climbers. Like Jules is someone who is just so good at bouldering, but also so good at sport climbing, and like being able to kind of bring those two things together into you know, roots or boulders, like whatever it is that maybe uh weren't a part of what people were conceiving of earlier on. And and similarly, like Carlo, you've talked about like, you know, comp movement on big wall and linking up these like Cracks that have these blank sections on LCAP. And I feel like there's kind of like a bit of a trad resurgence. I think Connor is helping kind of elevate uh that profile, and the strength level is kind of insane these days. Like the bench is so deep with all these climbers, and there's so many cool intersecting skill sets. And I feel like now more than even in the last uh you know 10 years or so, there are these climbers that have these really interesting combination skill sets at an insane level that are you know doing things like Drifter's Escape, which is like kind of an atypical line in a in a way. Um or yeah, these sport climbs that, like, okay, cool, you you do have to be a good sport climber, but you also need to be able to do like one move A B dinos. Uh so like having and someone like Adam with like the the insane like you know, he's kind of good at everything. But like just opening up these new new climbs and new ways of climbing and thinking about like what lines go and how to work with different features, I I just think is super super neat and it's a fun time to to be following high-level climbing.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

I I love it. I love the combination of everything. I did a uh I did like an all points off like double clutch dyno on a third pitch of a wall just this last weekend. And I was just like, this is the coolest shit ever, you know? Like, and also to be like, you know, you're climbing up some easier climbing and then be able to just huck a dyno in the middle of a wall and it feel like pretty chill. Um, I was just like, this is super fun. Like I love that where I'm at as a climber and you know what I've kind of been able to experience has led me to be able to do things like that. And I'm just like, this is rad. So so I I completely agree. That's kind of what I've always pushed for in my own climbing, trying to master so many different disciplines, trying to stay up to speed with the the coordination style in the gym, because I I feel like when you go find a new line outside or go find something on a wall, sometimes you need to have experience those things in order to see like a path through, you know, um, whether it's a double clutch or you know, like I've always imagined like a like a run across a sloping ledge on LCAP where you like, you know, you run and jump off the ledge into a dihedral that normally you wouldn't be able to like climb into or something, you know, or it's like like that's total comp stuff. But that that like I don't know where it is, but I'm sure that that exists somewhere, you know, and it'd be it'd be pretty rad.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

I think that the best climbs in the world always require multiple skills, what whether that means like you know, every kind of discipline or even just like it's fun when you have something that's really powerful followed by something that's super delicate. Like, you know, just anything that requires a lot of you. I think you know, when you stack those different requirements, could be like a head game. I I think that's why scary climbs or taller climbs add something, just because it's one more thing that you have to master in order to get to the top. And I think, yeah, make some special.

Support From Patreon

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who helped make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else. And those episodes are ad-free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay? Back to the pod.

World Cups In Baseball Stadiums

SPEAKER_01 25:39

You guys I totally forgot to say anything about the the comps that are happening. I did want to shout out the last World Cup uh being done in Salt Lake in a baseball stadium. Um Allison uh why isn't a baseball stadium?

SPEAKER_00 25:54

I mean, I think it's cool. I think they're just trying to sort of upgrade uh uh the venue, which is sweet. I mean, I think Salt Lake is now the hub of US comp climbing, and they're really trying to solidify that. So it's cool that I mean it's been fine in previous years in just the normal warehouse or there's like a park sort of downtown that they put like a temporary tent over. Um and it's also it's also previously just been in May. So when it was outside, it was really hot um in previous years too, and all the spectators were like just standing, standing room only in the sun in the park trying to watch this comp. Um pretty gnarly spectating experience. So I'm hyped. I hope the hot dog stands are still open and people can have like a true baseball stadium experience while watching climbing. I think it's pretty sweet that they're pushing for an upgraded viewer experience. Uh and so yeah, I mean I hope it I hope it goes well.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

What is the upgrade beyond just the space? Is is like there any other production upgrades to it other than just the fact that it's in the stadium?

SPEAKER_00 26:59

I have no idea. I I hope so. I actually just uh my my youngest cousin plays NCAA volleyball for Nebraska, and they just played a volleyball game in Wrigley Stadium, so I just went to Chicago to watch, which was crazy. It was like a this whole I mean volleyball, women's volleyball is like the fastest growing sport in the country, so it was like another level. But it was there was some like complications in that obviously baseball is like a giant sport in terms of space, like they take up the entire arena when they're actually playing baseball. So I hope there's a level up in production on that side too, because I I mean I think if everybody's watching from the stands, there's gonna have to be some pretty legit like Megatron whatever video replay action going on as well. Otherwise, I do think it might be hard to watch. I'm not I'm not sure. I I imagine they're only doing one side of seating because I feel like sitting on the back side of the comp wall would be pretty boring. But yeah, I mean I haven't talked to I haven't talked to anybody directly.

SPEAKER_05 28:03

So is it an indoor or an outdoor stadium?

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Outdoor. So I guess there must be some sort of contingency plan for weather, also, I would assume.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

But when is the World Cup happening?

SPEAKER_00 28:13

October 16th, that whatever that weekend is. I'm not sure if that's the exact date, but that that weekend.

SPEAKER_04 28:19

When I was younger, coming up in the like when I was doing youth, my last year was in a gym, but every year before that was in like the convention centers. And I thought the can at least even the convention centers were so much cooler than the gyms, so it's cool to see. I mean, even like you were saying, Carla, what's the like other upsides? I feel like I don't know, this is just like a step in the right direction, at least.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

I had the experience though of like there was a couple nationals that were in convention centers, and then they they only filled like a really small chunk of the space, and it all of a sudden felt terrible, like the vibe was terrible. Because I agree, like if you've got a bigger space, if you fill the space, there's a lot of energy, it like creates a lot. And then we had one, I think, that was maybe in the Salt Palace in Salt Lake, where it was like they literally gave us the entire open hall to like be in, and then it was just like the climbing wall in the corner with like you know, a fair bit of seats and stuff, but it only filled like one-tenth of the total space, and it was just weird. Like it felt almost smaller than than other events, even if the amount of people there was similar, you know. It was it was weird. So I I just I just bring it up because it's like I don't think just having a space necessarily makes for like a better production. So I hope that there's other things that go along with it that like also help it, like lighting and the way that it's filmed and you know good announcing music announcing. I don't know what other other parts of the production that like kind of add to the whole thing. Because it's it's a big thing to put on, you know, and they're not easy to put on. And I think you have to have talented people to produce something at at a high level. And um, I haven't seen that keep up over the years, so I I'm curious to see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Yeah, I mean I I wonder if you just sort of have to start doing it and hopefully slowly people will show up and it'll grow and and places will fill. Because I mean, I have had I went to the World Championships in Paris in 2016, I think, and they did it in a fully a stadium. Like the next booking for that stadium was the Justin Bieber tour right after. Like it was a huge stadium.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Yeah, at Bercy, yeah. I was I was there. Yeah, yeah. And like it was so sick. They packed it. They packed the whole stadium. I think it was like 8,000 people or something like that were in the stadium. It was insane.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

It was really crazy, and it was cool, like all different kinds of levels of like they they held para-world championships at the same time, too. And they had the uh blind categories on like the main head wall for their final, and the crowd has to be quiet while the blind climbers are climbing so they can hear their caller. Like that's part of the MC's like hushing everybody. So 8,000 people were completely silent for this guy's entire climb, all the way up to the head wall. He's like one of the greatest blind climbers in history. And then as soon as he fell, the whole stadium like it was like the craziest comp climbing moment I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

I remember watching that, and it was like one of my favorite things I've ever seen. It was like the the coolest, the coolest thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

So, like, I mean, I guess I don't know that the World Cup this coming month in Salt Lake is gonna be that, but I'd like to think like taking the initiative to start trying to book some of those venues, like hopefully it'll get and build its way towards that. Because I mean, that was one of the most incredible shows in comp climbing I've ever personally been to was that World Championships in Paris. So yeah, I don't I don't know. I hope I hope it goes well.

SPEAKER_03 31:39

That world championships, I'm fairly positive was free spectating, and that's why it um it got so big. And they did a massive marketing push. Like you couldn't walk around the city of Paris during those couple of weeks without seeing a poster about it and just directing people that way. And so they did a fantastic job of just promoting the hell out of it and then making it very, very easy for people to go. And um, and I think that that's an important aspect of it for sure.

SPEAKER_05 32:07

I I lean towards Allison on this. We're like, I'm I really appreciate the effort. And like I don't know that I would expect them to nail it in the way that world championships in Paris. Um, but also like it's been, I feel like such a long time since USA Climbing has done something not like under a bridge or in an old warehouse or in like some climbing gym. Um and so yeah, I appreciate the effort and also like having been on like the other side of trying to like host things in general. Sometimes you want to like get a feel for the space, like do it once. Like you don't almost don't want to like overplay it. And my guess is there's some sort of like larger picture like going on here. It's and hopefully this isn't a one-off, and this is like try number one, let's get into the space, see how it feels, run a comp here next time. Like, okay, cool, that was rad, but now we want 8,000 people in the stadium. Let's blow it up on marketing. Like, I hope this is sort of the the beginning of this trend back towards making more of kind of a spectacle of these high-level comps. Because as a fan, like I would I would be psyched to. I mean, I can't go at this time because I have I have a other work thing going on, but like I would love to go like to a stadium climbing comp in Salt Lake City. Like, I would 100% do that. That would be so sick.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

And that's that's what I was gonna say, Will, is I think in this world of more and more online, more and more stay-at-home and get DoorDash delivered, like live events become more interesting. And I think actually something like a sport like climbing becomes more interesting for us because we go out into the woods or we go to the gym, we go somewhere and have to experience it firsthand. And so I want to see that understanding work itself into the competition scene and make the event awesome. Like, really make it. I want to fly that. Like, I want to go. Actually, I might go. Um, and now on the flip side, like they should also do a better job with live streaming and doing a you know, it's like that in between is where it's bad. Like make being there incredible and then also make the online and the commenting, the video work, the all those little, you know, I wish they had a bare job of like I don't know what it's called, but you know, when there's stuff on the screen like the stats or their name, or grab like I just want more of that too. Like I feel like go lean into both ends of those spectrums and make it awesome. I I think we all want that.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Totally.

Bonus Content

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Okay, uh on to uh little bonus question. Um, this one came from a really, really, really long-term listener. I betcha uh this guy has listened at literally every single test piece pod I've ever done. Uh, Michael, um, he asked, Will strength continue on its path as outweighing technique as the dominant factor behind difficulty? And uh I just don't agree with this question. Um, I'm sorry, Michael. I love you, dude. We've talked a lot about climbing. I just think that's a misunderstanding of what strength is and what technique is, and that to me they are not separate things, and that uh grades reflect one thing, and that's the difficulty of getting up the boulder. And that you shouldn't, I in my opinion, you shouldn't separate strength and technique as much as we commonly do in the Instagram training vernacular of coaching and like I will get you strong. It's like, well, I want to get the boulder. Uh that's that's all I really want to do. So that's my kind of you know, two cents on it. But if anyone else uh wants to chime in, I'd love to hear it.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Can you elaborate on the question? I didn't quite fully understand like what he meant by that.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

I I think uh my my reading into it is that uh he feels like the the climbs that are at the top end of the scale right now um seem to be more based on maybe finger strength or um bicep strength or back strength and have less to do with technique. Although someone chimed in, Carlo, and they said, What about the dark side?

SPEAKER_03 36:10

I gotta say, I I I can't I mean I can't disagree more to be completely honest. I think that I think that the hardest climbs in the world actually are more on the technical side in in most ways than they are on the physical in my ex in my experience. And I've tried a lot of the V17s at least, and there are definitely moves that are more slightly more physical, but I I I would just say there's there's probably more like a higher quantity of higher end physical moves. I just don't think that the physical bar has necessarily been moved that far as opposed to like what people are capable of of the positions that people are capable of operating in um like under intense amounts of stress, and I think that that's more of a technical advancement.

SPEAKER_04 37:03

I agree with Carlo, and the only thing I want to just add, I think you could think about it in kind of a s another way, or you can kind of think about it two ways. You can kind of think about it Carlos' way, which I agree with, but you can also think about it with like what comes first. And I I see the argument for being like, oh, but you need to be strong enough to be able to use the technique, but I think a lot of climbers disprove that a lot of the times. Like, I don't know, Dave Graham, for example, isn't like your strongest climber. No offense, Dave Graham.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

Don't say that. He's like, he's gonna get angry at you.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

It's okay. I can say it because I climb like Dave Graham, so Dave's coming at you, dude. He's one of the best climbers, though.

SPEAKER_03 37:47

Like no, I I mean I've I've always said I've always said the same thing. I mean, in in regards to that. Like, I think Dave is exceptionally good at rock climbing. And you cannot say that he's not strong, but I I would say that his his most important characteristic of his climbing is his technical capabilities for sure. So he's not like the He doesn't overpower climbs, is what I'm trying to say. Where I've seen people that overpower things to get them done, and he's he's on the opposite end where he he he he technically like like it's perfect in a lot of ways. And I think I've always thought of that as a compliment to Dave, and I've expressed that, I think, to him. I've expressed that to him before, though, and and sometimes he's taken it not in that way, which I feel bad about.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

We have viral reel that was like from Noah, like we were joking about like, Daniel, can you just like move a little faster? Dave, maybe you should like do a pull-up. Chris, could you like keep your feet on? It's like and then Dave like responded, like, okay, I guess I'll like go do some training so I can be a good climber finally. And I love Dave.

SPEAKER_03 38:57

Dave's probably like the best technical climber like I've ever seen, like 100%. And and I wish you would take that as more of like a compliment rather than like a you know, like a some sort of a attraction physical ability, which is still very high.

SPEAKER_04 39:11

And the reason I even brought it up is because that's like the climbing style I aspire to be like. Like I watch Dave Graham climb and I go, oh, that's how I want to climb, and that's like that what work is what works for me. So, you know, imitation is flattery or whatever they say.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

I was just gonna say, I think the other side of that is like if you're just watching the videos of the people who are at the upper echelon of the sport, like it looks like they're doing a kilterboard problem, but like I've been at the boulder when people are trying Shaolin, which is probably one of the most like basic looking sequences, those two big like kilterboard style moves one after the other. And to a certain extent they are, but when you're there in person and you're like watching these athletes try those moves, it's so much more technically based than it would look from the send footage. Like everything looks easy when you're somebody is just doing it in an uncut send video, but like they're talking about the angle of their ankle on the foothold and how that's the best way to generate in the most coordinated fashion, and like what side of the hold they have to hit, and in what hand position, and figuring out these things that are super technically advanced. Like, obviously, you have to have a certain level of physical ability to like be in the realm of being able to do the moves, but I think that is like something that is really hard to see from the outside if you're not physically there in person watching people try boulders. Like, even the ones that do seem really simple have so much more complexity than you maybe would first think by just watching it.

SPEAKER_04 40:46

I kind of feel like it almost comes down to more instead of like strength versus technique, it comes down more to like this idea I've been really into recently of understanding climbing versus like feeling climbing. And I think the best climbers are able to do both. Like they can understand what they have to do off the wall, but then they can feel it on the wall. And I don't know exactly how to phrase because I really just was have been into this idea like the last few days. I don't know. And I've been trying to think about it more, but it just feels really important that you have to be able to do both.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

There's a rational side and an intuitive side, and you've got to be able to uh have both at a high level in order to perform really, really well. You've gotta you've gotta be able to take stock of what's in front of you in a rational manner and apply that like everything that you've learned in a rational way, but then when you're climbing, you've also got to like be able to be reactive and intuitive as to what's happening, you know, in in in that situation. And I think the best climbers do that really, really well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Will, as one of the most technical climbers I know who makes training tools to get you really, really strong, and had a podcast I listened to forever ago called uh or Position Over Everything. I want to hear your take on this.

SPEAKER_05 41:59

Yeah, I so as kind of a jumping off point to you know, I've been at a busy crag for like a month, and it's really interesting to listen to people talk about climbing and and do it and just kind of observe. And having that window over the last month uh has just been really uh interesting. Um person, I just am into that kind of thing, but uh I heard this conversation so many times. Um and like to Carlos's point, like I couldn't disagree more like with the whole concept of the question. I think it's an experience thing, and like it not in like a negative way, but just like an ignorance thing, kind of to what Allison was saying. Like, if you're if you're making that, if you're crafting that question in your mind and like that's sort of your concept of climbing as being this thing that is like built out of these two parts, one part being technique and one part being strength, like it's just a misunderstanding of what people are doing. And I understand how like you watch a video of someone doing something like quote unquote basic, like Shaolin or Define Gravity, you're like, oh well, they're doing that because they're really strong. Well, you're not wrong, like they are really strong, and that's helping them do it. But like there's an extremely precise and particular way in which that needs like technically needs to happen in order for that expression of strength to even come into the picture. And it's not two different things, and I think people thinking about climbing in that way and talking about it in that way, I think is actually super detrimental to their ability to progress in the sport. And I think the like common parlance and the way that like things are presented on social media, particularly from like trainers and coaches, like they're They're trying to run a business, like you're being marketed to. And like that simple language makes it easy for them to like communicate. And like, but I think in in like for people who really are interested in in getting better at climbing and studying climbing and like trying to understand it and do it well, like those those two concepts like as like a dichotomy are not productive like at all. It's not even a chicken or the egg. It's like what it like what are you even talking about? Like strength versus technique. Like that's not a thing. And like I I've also had the privilege over this last month of watching some of the absolute physically most freak strong people climb. And like you can have all the strength in the world, but if you don't understand how to apply it to a given task, you can't overpower it. Like you you straight up can't. It's just not it's just not the right way to think about it or the right way to to talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

I I've said this a million times. Climbing's a pushing and a pulling sport, and you've got four points of contact typically, and they're either pushing or they're pulling. And sometimes people think that their hands are only pulling and their feet are only pushing, and that tends to be problematic. Um and the best climbers and the people that understand movement the best, you know, understand that every motion throughout the motion is your hands going or your hands and feet going from pulling to pushing motions and back and forth throughout that motion. And if you're not doing that efficiently, then you're making things much, much harder for yourself. And that's the technique is that you need to know when you're pulling or pushing, or vice versa, with feet and hands, and they're all changing throughout the motion. Like a pull becomes a push at some point, and sometimes a push becomes a pull, depending on you know where you're directing your body and how that motion's going. And and like what Will's saying, like if you're not clued into how to utilize those different forces to your advantage, then you know you could be pulling or pushing in the wrong direction and and not really getting anywhere. So even if you're the strongest person in the world.

SPEAKER_05 46:27

And so much of it is is feel. Like I think that's like a I think a big part of like I don't know, misunderstanding is maybe the wrong word, but like you watch reels and people will be like, oh, I'm gonna teach you how to do whatever. And the way of teaching is like they're describing a thing. And I I don't know about y'all, but like I could read the book, you could talk to me all day about it, give me the infographic, sell me the the course, the like digital pamphlet or whatever. You can have all the rational understanding in the world about technically how that stuff works, but if you can't feel it, you're not gonna do it. You can't be thinking about all these changing force vectors through time as you're doing a single move on a boulder problem. Like you have to be able to intuit a lot of that, feel what that feels like, and then you can sort of attach the rational thought to that internal feeling and then have a conversation about it. But like I used to, and I think even in that old position over everything, like talking about how you kind of have that thinking and feeling brain, and and that thinking brain is not performance, like it's it's the feeling brain, like when you go in, like people talk about flow state or whatever, you're kind of just doing it. Like I think about it almost like a zip folder, like on a computer, where like I have all of this information, but I can't like productively interact with it in real time on a climb, and I sort of package it into a feeling, and I know that like I need to create this feeling on the wall, and that corresponds to me doing all these different things right, and I can focus on an individual feeling in a moment, like while I'm trying to perform, but I can't think all those things, and that's just sort of like in my head, that's sort of how I think about it. I'm not saying that's how you do it, but it's it's worth considering as a climber. Like, how can I take because there is a there's so much information out there now, like more than there's ever been. You have more access to it than you've ever had. But how how are you gonna take that and internalize it and be able to feel it on the wall, like while you're client? Like, that is so like that's it. That's what's important. Uh you can have the technical manual, but like if you can't feel it and you're you're just not gonna be able to do it, I don't think.

SPEAKER_04 49:03

I think you have to turn your understanding to intuition for sure.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Yeah, that that was really, really good. That was really, really good. I'm gonna just repeat back some of the things that jumped out to me that I want to have as a takeaway. Uh yeah, I I think what's interesting is there is that feeling that uh that you're talking about, Austin, and and well, but then I also think you want to understand climbing and use your rational mind to point you in a direction to then try to build your intuition, to you know, understand the physics, to then try to try a new thing and then see how it feels and get that feedback loop. Um, Alison, you said something about how Shaolin is basic, but clearly it's not, because if it really was just strength, then it would just be buying it. You just show up and you flash it, because it's like, oh, like I can do this or I can't. Um it's it's but that's not the the lived experience. Um Carla, you said something that really jumped out at me, uh, this idea that as climbing has progressed, has the physicality really progressed in the climbers? And uh, you know, the the answer is is no. Like, I'm sure we have some freak strong people that you were hanging out with, Will, and they are amazing people, but it's not like all of a sudden people are three grade stronger.

SPEAKER_03 50:15

Um I don't necessarily mean that the phil physicality hasn't improved. Like I do think people are stronger as a whole for sure, but I think it's less like in that binary way that people think of it as, you know, I think people are there's like marrying it with the technique in a better way than they ever have. Um whereas like people can be at the highest level of physical fitness, but then also have that advanced, super advanced technical capability to like utilize it a way that it hasn't been utilized before. Whereas I feel like maybe in the past there were people that were as strong or maybe close to, but they didn't quite have all of the technical components that allowed them to utilize it in the same way.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

So And that brings me back to kind of the point that I I was saying where I just don't think they're separate. I don't think it's right to think of strength and technique as being separate things, and then we invent, or sorry, yeah, I don't know if events the right word, when we start like utilizing knee bars, like you don't it's not like you're strong at knee bars, but there is a physicality behind knee barring and subtle knee barring and connecting that to your fingers in a certain way. And I'll close out with what you said, Carla, when I was said made some comment about Alamandra being quote unquote weak, and you were like, he doesn't have like one weak you know fiber in his body. And it's because like it's wrong to separate, it's like, well, he climbs well, and that is strength, and that is technique, and that's an expression of our body in that moment. So I yeah, again, don't love separating those things.

SPEAKER_03 51:45

That's the beauty of climbing, is that the the interconnectedness of strength and technique and and the fact that it is such a movement-based sport that requires both. I mean, that's that's my favorite part about it. Like, that's why I'm not like a weightlifter, you know, and like, or you know, somebody who's just doing pure strength tests or something like that. Like, and not to knock that, like people are into that. I just I love climbing for its blend of of the two, you know? Weightlifting is really technical. Yeah, still there is still technique.

SPEAKER_05 52:14

I know that, but I guess what I would say, like when it comes to human performance, like in movement, the same thing applies. Like it's there is not this differentiation between strength and technique. Like, there's a shit ton of technique in powerlifting. Like, even if you were to try and make the argument for like, oh well, well, what about bodybuilding? There's a specific technique to lifting for bodybuilding that isn't actually good technique for power lifting. And like, so like even balanced. You're 100% right.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

That that's that's a bad example on my part for sure.

SPEAKER_05 52:49

No, no, it's all good, but I think that's common. Like, people I like want this, like, there's these two chunks, there's strength, like it's just it's just not how things work.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

But to add a plus one to what you I think you were saying, Carlo, I was when I went mountain biking with that crew uh in Whistler a lot of them are climbers, and that's how I know them, but they've kind of not climbed as much, and they really like mountain biking. And um, I really enjoyed it too. I thought it was really cool. But one of the things I love about climbing is how much strength it does require. Like I think it's a movement-based sport, but I like the the application of actual physical force output uh is really is required. Like, of course, you need to have strong fame. No one's saying that here. Uh, and then marry that with just absolute subtlety. Like I was thinking when we were talking about Dave Graham, him like tick marking his shoe. You know, you're just like, you tick mark your freaking shoe. Like, okay, you guys, all this was so good, but we went really long and it was really fun, and we did great having all five of us on. Amazing. Love seeing you guys. Love the good temps rolling in because it's October, Centover, and uh yeah, that was a blast, you guys. That was that was really, really special.

SPEAKER_04 54:06

And I'm sorry, Dave Graham.