Good Temps #16 — Austin Sends Another V16, Ondra’s ‘No Fall Day,’ and Should You Stack Pads?

Board Lords 10 with Daniel Woods, Matt Fultz, and David Fitzgerald

SPEAKER_01 0:00

People would benefit a lot as climbers to try to on-site roots more. Even if you're not a rope climber, just get into that like fight mentality of like, I am going to figure this out. I'm going to get to the chains no matter what it is. And even if I do everything wrong, I'm just going to keep trying to move up. I think that that fight mentality goes like a really long way. So and now everyone's going to think that I'm saying you should only on-site all the time. I heard saying it does care about it. Yeah, you guys are going to clip that Josh and projecting doesn't help you at all.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Carlo Traversi has never project in his life.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Welcome to the Test Peace podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com/slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Good Tempts is back. We've got Carla Taversi, Austin Hoyt, and we do not have anyone else other than me, Josh Horsley. Allison Bess was supposed to join, but she is still in South Africa, and the Wi-Fi in Africa is as good as that sounds. I think that's just an excuse. I think she's drinking a lot of Pitico, um something like that. Uh Will's taken the week off. He's been busy. Actually, you know, I just watched yesterday evening. I was gonna bring this up if Will was here, but he's not here. I saw Boardlords 10 and I saw you on there, Austin, as a spectator. As a spectator.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Made the cut. Made the cut. Spectator cut.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

You know what?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

If Allison was here, it would even be perfect because she's been on Boardlords before, too. We tried to bring the podcast to Africa, but it, you know, it just didn't quite pan out.

unknown 2:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Maybe we could get sponsored by American Airlines or United or I don't know why I thought of American Airlines first. That's probably like the last airlines I'll take a look at. Oh man. Uh well, we miss you, Will. We miss you, Allison. And uh yeah, that board lords got 100,000 views or something like right away. And I I feel like that's more than those World Cup things get. So yeah, just wanted to point out that a big I haven't I haven't watched it.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Why do you think it got why do you think it was so much more popular than the other Daniel Woods?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

It's always that yeah, it's always dude. It's always that popular.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

I don't know. Daniel looked pretty extra shredded. He looked pretty shredded, I'll just say, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Daniel's always been pretty shredded. I don't know what the yeah, I mean, Daniel's Daniel's beast. He's always kind of been a beast. So this is true. People just they're remembering what kind of a beast Daniel is for sure. I'm curious to watch it just because um Fitzy is like similar in a lot of ways, and it'd be I'm I'm psyched to see kind of them pair up against each other. Um I climbed with Fitzy uh in a a board video for Kilter um, you know, a month or so ago in Davis, and um yeah, we me and Jimmy both just got stomped by Fitzy.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

I think we talked about it on the last the last pod, but Austin, what'd you think about uh Daniel versus Fitzgerald? I felt like I know that they like theoretically are like in their hands, like kind of you know, similar in that style, but I feel like they climb way different, actually. Like Fitzgerald looks all floaty, like he's got this light, almost like Sean Bailey kind of like I don't know, everything just looks so light, where Daniel is so like everything looks both really hard and really easy for Daniel. Like when he does the move, it looks really easy, but as he's starting to get into the position to do the move, it looks really hard. Uh, which I actually thought they were way different uh in the you know in the episode.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

It was it was cool watching them in person because I felt like Daniel was like really tense, you know? He looked tense on the wall, which isn't like I don't know, good or bad, but like you said, David just looked really loose and floaty, and yeah, it's funny. Like I I feel like we got to forerun the boulders a little bit, me, Adam, Noah, and like we were trying them and we were like, oh, these are like maybe maybe these are too hard or this, and like we were like, oh, they're kind of powerful, maybe Matt will do like really well and like be able to beast through all them. And yeah, I think we we just somehow totally were like, we're like, okay, these are like maybe too hard. Let's dial them back, and then we brought them back up and this and that. We were playing around. Turned out Daniel was just like insane. Like, we were all like, holy shit, we like underestimated Daniel so hard. It was crazy. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Who stood out? I mean, was Daniel just kind of the standout amongst everybody?

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Damn, that's pretty sick because seeing how strong Fitzy was, and then like you know, knowing that Daniel's like kind of at or above that is is pretty rad. Because I haven't climbed with Daniel in a long time. And I used to climb with Daniel a lot, like like weekly, and uh, and I I'm aware of what what Daniel can do.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

So he he looks like a a a full-time boardlord now.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Full-time boardlord, nice. Yeah. I would I mean I would love obviously to see Daniel start. I mean, he has translated it to like a lot of outdoor stuff, you know, over the years, so it's certainly not something that he's lacking, but it'd be cool to see what's next for him outdoors for sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Yeah, I mean, he's definitely trying hard right now. Like he's in all the videos and all the boards, he's looking strong, he's eating right, he's got he's on those natty roids.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Yeah, uh it's gotta be good when you when people start saying you're on roids for sure. All right, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

You know you're doing well when people are yeah claiming that you're on steroids. No one's ever claimed that I've been on steroids, so you know I I probably need to step it up in my training. Yeah, I think I trained harder.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Yeah. Uh okay, uh tons of people asked us to comment on that whole thread of is Daniel on steroids or not? And I just not not that interest. I think if you paid attention to Daniel for a long time. It's the raw meat and honey. That's all.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

The only thing I would say about that is it's not, it's not like it's it's not really that cool to to like call somebody out that way on like social. Like, regardless of who you are, um, I think it's a little bit kind of just like, what, what are you doing? You know? It's like it's it's it's a little bit disrespectful in my opinion, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

I agree with that, but I also think that the internet maybe took it the wrong way when that guy commented about it. I don't think he was trying to take Daniel down a notch or even was like super like this guy is definitely on steroids. I think it was more of a compliment. Like we were saying, like, geez, look at this guy.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Um I think he looks like fishing too a little bit. Like, I mean, yeah, you know, that's how it is, like, we never do that.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

We have no there is no clickbaiting, we have never that is not happening on the test feed. We do not sink to that level. We we set a high standard.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

I thought we agreed our clickbait days are over, guys. We're done.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

No, we're tried. We tried. No more clickbait, just truth. Just truth. Okay, okay. Um, on from steroids and clickbait on to Austin, you did another V16, dude. Congrats, man. Creature, creature of the black. Oh, I don't even know what it's called. Something like that. It's V16. Good job.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah, congrats, dude. Stoked for you, man. That's awesome. Thank you. I love

Austin Sends "Creature from the Black Lagoon" V16/8C+

SPEAKER_01 7:52

that time, so that's cool to see you do it.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

No, that thing, it's so good. I was surprised by how much cooler in person it was. I feel like I said this on the last pod, so I'll keep it short, but I was surprised by how much cooler in person it was. And it was one of the OGs, but I feel like it deserves more love.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Yeah, it's a special line. I mean, we we we saw it years ago, you know, before it got done. And it's just like rare to have like full overhang like that with like these like the way the holds are kind of set up under there is is really interesting, and they're all like big like features, you know, but they don't work that well together. So the I think the spacing is cool on them, and like all the grips are really cool, and it's not like painful to try. Super complex. Yeah, it's complex. There's like cool footwork stuff going on, like a lot of weird kind of 3D body positions and things, and yeah, it's just it's cool to climb out of that roof. Like it's so sad and it stays cold in there, which is nice.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

It stays it stays so cold. And it was cool going into the summer. I was like, all right, I'm gonna do creature. That was what I said at the beginning of the summer, and it was kind of cool to like do it, you know. Like that felt do creature. Yeah, it kind of was just like, oh, alright, I did it. All right, next. So yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

I'm psyched. So what's next? What what are you gonna plant your flag in? Uh if it it just manifests, if that's how it works. That's how you do it. Just say what it is.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Well, I listened, I listened to uh to the board talk on my drive back, and I heard Adam finally put out the V18 statement that we've been talking about forever on that gunk roof. So I'll probably plan that. But realistically, there's this thing in Vermont, this other roof that I went to try creature for, basically. Like uh it's like another thuggy, knee bar-y, compression-y, powerful roof thing in Vermont that's probably also like V16. So I'm pretty psyched on that thing just because I have the fitness for it right now, I think. So those two are the the big ones, the big hard ones.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

I think people may not realize that creature is like right next to Jade. Like, what a little awesome spot there. And I have tried, was it two tongue or something? I tried the 12, like the the not so low start of creature. Uh is that what's called? Yeah, and it's cool. Uh yeah, the holds were it's been a long time.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Two ton tongue is like the right, it's a it's a totally independent line that comes out the right side of the roof, and then two-ton skeleton is the one that like two ton skeleton.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Okay, yeah, you can't.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

That's the hand jam one.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Yeah, okay. Well, I just thought it's cool for people who don't know that it's like kind of right there in an iconic spot. Um, and yeah, it's a it's a tall, it's like I feel like the roof is higher up than it looks on video. Like it's a like it's a cool feature. That's what I think. It's not dumpy, it's not like yeah, yeah, dude. It's good. Yeah, it's pretty open in there.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

It's super, yeah. Yeah, you can like stand in there. And I did top it out, which was cool, but I also may have used a block that was to the left, so I don't know. We'll see. But at least I I stood on top of the boulder. I mean you hundred you have to top out.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

It's like a really cool top-out section. I agree too.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

I but my top-out journey was wild. I went like up and then I was like left, and then I went around the arette to the left, and I went up that slab. It was full, it was epic. I was like, I'm standing on.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Wait, did you stand on the boulder next to it though on your way up? Did you touch another boulder?

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Dude, I think I dabbed on the way up. I'm not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

All right. Well, sometimes you get your sentence taken away. You know what happens on this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

I will say, I was on the finish jugs and I said, What do you think? Tristan Chen was in. I said, What do you think, Tristan? Do I top out or do I drop off? And he said, he looked at me and said, Is this your first 16? I said, second. He said, drop off.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Tristan. It doesn't matter what it is, always try to top out. At least that's my opinion, especially if it's easy terrain. Like, that's the I don't know. I mean, even when it's really, really chill, it's just fun to like stand on top of a boulder, especially in Chaos Canyon. Like, that boulder is awesome to stand on top of you, like, overlook the whole canyon. It's super rot up there.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Have you guys done Alma Blanca in Waco?

SPEAKER_01 11:48

No.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Never been. Okay, you know what I'm talking about though? Like that, it's that like little roofy thing. It's got so I'm doing I I did Alma Blanca, and while I'm doing it on the top, there's like a boulder sitting on top of that boulder. And I'm like, can I grab this? Like, is this okay?

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Like uh and if it's sitting on top of the other boulder and not sitting on the ground, I think it's fair game.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

But okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Just checking on I don't have a lot of sense left. I mean, what's the difference between like a little piece of choss that's sitting on the boulder that you're on or like a giant boulder sitting on top of that? It's kind of the same thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Yeah, I had to ask while I was like up there because I didn't think about it before, I was asking my crew. I was like, is this okay? Is this legit? Is this on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go for it. Uh that's funny. Okay. Uh I will give Carlo his flowers, not for ascending, but for opening gyms. Dude, you are just nonstop. You got the stack and Davis open. And when is Chico set to open? Is it also called the stack up in Chico?

Carlo's Newest Gym

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah, we're using the same name for both. Okay. Um, so yeah, the stack is kind of the new name that we're gonna use for for these gyms. Um and uh yeah, Davis opened in early June or like end of May, early June. Um it's good. Yeah, it's been going good. Small gym, um, just kind of building right now. We're still adding a lot of features and things, which is cool. Um, you know, we like open as fast as we can basically and then just kind of keep adding things. Um like we have a section of the gym that's still kind of open that like we haven't put anything in and we're trying to figure out exactly what it what could go in there. Um and I'm kind of leaving it open to like what the community eventually would want for that space, which I think is kind of cool to be able to like leave a space that like then the community can have a say in what what goes on there, whether it's like an expansion of the weight area or more cardio equipment or like additional climbing terrain that's like different from what we already have. So um so we're kind of playing with some ideas around that, and then also working on this gym in Chico that's a full service gym, ground up build. Um it's it's beautiful. Honestly, like and I try not to like you know, obviously it's fun to kind of toot your own horn about things, but like going in there and like being in there now and having boulders up and roots up while we're setting it. I'm like, this is honestly like one of the best climbing gyms I've ever been in, like, period. Um and it's cool to have like a hand in that. I know, I know that's what we're also saying. Like, I don't quite know if Chico is gonna fully realize, at least immediately, like like how cool this is to have, you know. Um basically to have like one of the best climbing gyms in America be in Chico, California, is like pretty insane. Um because it's like we've got a ton of really cool modern holds. I think the wall angles are incredible um and just the whole layout and feel of the building with like natural light and you know, the way it's all kind of set up and laid out just work really well. Um you know, both because I put all of my experience into you know, previous experience into the design, but just the location of it and all these other factors just kind of all kind of came together at the right time and it's it's rad. So I think hopefully people are like interested in like kind of traveling up there to like check it out because it's it's pretty dope.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

What's changed in building a gym uh since uh uh you opened the Boulder Field, both in like kind of like how was your hold by this time? Like what were the angle changes? Like what was just like the whole world available to you and the choices you made doing a build? What was this like eight years, ten years later or something?

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Yeah, like nine years. Boulder field is almost nine years. Yeah. Jeez, that's a long time, dude. Uh so fortunately I did a good job. And the Boulderfield was one of the first gyms to do this where the angles were really, really basic and flat throughout the m the majority of the gym. And my like kind of idea behind that at the time was like we're just at the front end of like volumes and macros. And really, macros were not there were not many macros back then, like very little when we opened that gym. I mean, I looked at our first order and it was like a couple of those flat hold fiberglasses that were in there, and like that was kind of it. And I knew that we were on the front end of that, and I was like, I need a canvas that's gonna allow for unlimited volumes and macros in the future. And I'm glad that we went that route because when you look at the walls in the diagram, you're like, wow, this looks really boring. But nowadays that's how most people are are making gyms. They look pretty boring until you put volumes and macros on the wall, and then that kind of makes them alive. And the great thing about that is how adaptable they are. You know, you can you can put now these like there's volumes that are like eight, ten feet wide now that you can just like throw on. It completely changes the nature of the wall entirely. And so having like big flat panels is is just incredible for that. And so I'm happy that I did that on the design of the Boulderfield. The one thing that I changed was um bringing natural wood back into like the color scheme, which I think like makes the space feel a little bit warmer um and just more like livable. Um, which the Boulderfield at the time there weren't great um natural wood options out there. Um like some companies had natural wood and they did a really good job with it, but then the texturing was not great. Um and now, you know, working with Walltopia, they've kind of refined their process a bit, and I feel pretty happy with like the natural wood that they have and the texture that's kind of on that. And so um we brought the natural wood into both of the new spaces, which I'm really happy about. But but yeah, overall we just took I just tried to take a lot of the same themes that we felt like worked at the Boulder Field in terms of the wall design and spacing and then replicate it, but then adjust the angles so that it feels like a different place, you know, like um just a little bit more adaptability, but also like a different feel overall. So like little arets, like I really like really subtle arets, um, and then subtle dihedrals. Um and then there's a couple harder angles, but then the hard angle changes are really intentional. Um and you're like, okay, we know that this is gonna create this here most of the time. So really looking at every every piece of the of the puzzle there. And I'm really happy with it. I'm psyched.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

What do you think about doing like uh the bolt holes, the T-nuts versus the screw-on argument? Do you think there's a place for a full screw-on gym?

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Uh yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's that's a totally fine concept in theory. I think the problem that you deal with is like uh just how fast you destroy the wood with screws as opposed to bolts. And so like, you know, a lot of holds, like if you can't put a bolt in it, you're definitely gonna put three or four screws. So you're doing like triple the amount of screw holes. And screws, you know, uh with modern plywood, like, you know, like a 19-ply Baltic birch, like really heavy-duty plywood, um, you know, it takes a long time to destroy it with screws. But you know, you want a gym that's gonna last 10, 20 years without having to replace panels. And so and and I've unfortunately been to a lot of gyms where they destroy the walls with screw holes and then it it starts to deteriorate the walls like quite a bit. Like you can almost smear in the chipped up sections of like screw holes and stuff like that. So I don't necessarily see the point in not having T-nuts. Like I think if you had like a really small wall that was just for like comp style stuff and you were planning on just putting a lot of volumes on the wall, then sure, like you don't need to have t-nuts, but why not? I mean, they're really helpful for just preserving the the nature of the wall and for quick, you know, quick adjustments of holds and stuff like that rather than having to screw them in. So I I think it can kind of go either way. I'm not like anti, you know, one way or the other. It's more just kind of like we're always trying to preserve the walls as best as possible because they're expensive and they're a really valuable asset to the business. And um, you know, having T-nuts helps with that for sure.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

So I think on an industrial scale, like you're dealing with with some like a big mega builder, I don't think the additional cost of putting holes into panels and T-nut them is actually that significant. Like when they have yeah, yeah, they're not gonna give you that big a discount. And God, could you imagine like training a new setter or being a new setter and thinking to yourself that every time I try a hold placement, it's going to literally have permanent effects. That would stress me out. I remember we just had started uh jibbing macros when I was like ending my setting time, and it would stress me out because I just wasn't super experienced with doing that. And for us, like thinking about putting holes in like a $200 hold or like $400 hole, I dude, it stressed me out. I was like, that's my salary for a month here.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Uh yeah, we don't we don't gib we don't gib macros um at the Boulder Field or the other gyms, at least at this point, um, just for preservation of it, especially with like the fiberglass and the the VTF stuff. It's uh it it once you've got that hole in there, it's not gonna I mean you can put a wood backer on it, but they like they just keep deteriorating after there's a hole in there. And so the only times that we've ever done it are like if we're setting a comp, which is fairly rare, um, and it really feels like it's the difference between the problem working and not, then that's like the last addition. But I'm always challenging the setters to be like, hey, you're supposed to be the best, and the best know how to like be creative in these circumstances, and that doesn't mean to just take the easy way out of like destroying the hold, you know? And so it's almost more of like a challenge of like how how do you make this work while also preserving like the resources you know in the building.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

So what do you guys think about the balance in aesthetics between macros and small holds? Like I I was at a gym recently that is newish, like within the last couple of years, and all they had were macros. And and macro is like I guess on like a spectrum, but you know, just like these giant holds that maybe only have one usable area. And there was a time where like that looked really cool to me. It would be like a uh aesthetic feature to see a big hold, but then you go in and all you see are big holds, and it looks terrible in my opinion. Like I miss just there's like aesthetics to it, as well as like a climbing thing. where you want to have like tiny feet. You want to have tiny hands and you want to have big giant slopers or macros too.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

I kind of I don't know. I I was set at Bethod and they're really into the aesthetic part of it, right? And I I kinda I do kind of like the big fiberglass aesthetic of like I don't know. I treat my setting like a like painting sometimes, you know, where it's like I like to have a a visual idea in my head and then like make it look pretty and also functional. Like I think that's really cool and I think with the fiberglass I don't want to say it's like an easy way to make it look pretty but in a way it is but you still have to like do it right. And I do think you said that a lot of the time the fiberglass only has like one usable surface but I think that's honestly I kind of disagree with that a lot because even like the dual text ones where you're like oh this is like unholdable or whatever you can set those like gimmicky slide things or like a little like slab walk across or something. I don't know. I think there's creative ways to use the unusable surface for sure.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

I don't want to make it sound like I think all fiberglass has one usable surface. I just don't want to call out the name of like a popular hold company that really did a ton of really big holds that are just big for being big and you're just like that's fair.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

That's super fair.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yeah yeah also plus one on aesthetics and making a climb sell itself I want climbs to be like come climb me.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Like I want them to like jump out at me but uh I still think there's room for small holds mixed in with the big holds we have days where we're where like Nick uh is our headsetter Nick Conklin and he will be like all right today I want the shield which is like our overhung wall to look really big. I want every climb on it to be big and loud. But then we'll go to like the next section and he'll be like all right this one I want like a big climb here and then like two crimp lines here you know and I want to be small like I don't even want people to see them if they walk by kind of thing. So I think there's still space for it like you said I agree. Yeah there's still space for it and you can still make them look pretty for sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yeah I I've always been a fan of balance and and and really using holds like to their most you know like I came from you know really early old school climbing gyms where your bigger feature were really limited. And these were like old school plastic or you know the what do you call it the polyester resin holds that were like the boss hold which nowadays is like kind of tiny compared to a lot of the holds. That was like massive. And if you used it, it was like you better use the shit out of it because that's like the biggest, coolest hold in the gym. And I so I still carry, you know obviously things change over time, but I still carry through a lot of that mentality. And that's something that I kind of profess to our setters a lot is that like don't waste the grip. You know like if you're gonna throw a giant mackerel on the wall, make sure that you're using it for what it's meant to be used for and using it in in at least a few different ways, whether it becomes a foothold later or a bicycle or like you know some way of like like implementing it later in the sequence even if it's not just like multiple matches or presses on on it or something like that. But I think it's a good thing to follow and and sometimes you know you make a choice that is aesthetic you know and not just based around function. But I'm I'm always pushing them to kind of follow you know like make try to make it have both a functional you know an aesthetic um purpose on the wall not just for just littering it with like macro holds you know and I think sometimes it can look messy when there's too many big macros on there. Like you lose the line. And so having balance with like some smaller holds and bigger holds can make certain sections of the boulder pop. And then what you're looking for too is like question marks. Like you don't want to see a line and be like oh yeah the whole thing just that's what it is you know you want to walk up to it and see it and be like oh yeah I see that and they're like whoa what what happens there? Like it gets blank. Like how do I piece this together? And those question marks are really what draw somebody in and so you're trying to create that both in an aesthetic sense and also in like a problem solving sense once you're on the wall. And so I think that balance and whole distribution can play a big role in how you like drag people into that.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Yeah I fully and I won't linger on the setting too long but I have I I fully agree with what you said with like the question marks and everything because in my setting I really like using the word awkward like not in a bad way but I think setting awkward movement or an awkward puzzle is like a good thing. It teaches something s uh somebody something new and one thing me and Nick always get in arguments about is like he's like you can't say awkward here. It's it could be funky it could be this you can't say awkward though I don't want an awkward boulder on the wall and I'm always just like dude it's good I swear but I I totally I like the question mark.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah I find the hardest thing to teach new setters is what is good awkward and what is bad awkward. For sure. And because like sometimes you'll climb something you'll be like this is just bad awkward. It's like my knees are like rubbing together on this this move. You know or like you know like I I just I it just feels really uncomfortable but in like a bad way. And then there's uncomfortable and awkward that is like okay this is this is a box to maneuver through and now that we're through it it like starts to feel more manageable. And I don't know. Like I'm not I haven't quite figured out how to like fully define that and teach that. I think it's like one of the things that I've been struggling with the most in terms of communicating with newer setters is like what that line is. Because sometimes you'll set something and you'll be like this is good awkward. This is like a good like like uncomfortable and like weirdness and then and then they'll set something that's just really bad and uncomfortable and weird and you're just like you're like I don't know how to how to explain the difference between the two to you. You know like it's not easy to do that. It's like it's like awkwardness that doesn't inspire something, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Yeah I just hate when you go to a gym that clearly doesn't have really many experienced setters and then what you see the hard one is is it's like this was like a V7 and then we just took all the feet off and like it's like you have to match like you have to piano match this tiny crimp. It's just like it's it's V10 it's just awesome we switched all the footholds and hand holds uh actually that was a point I was gonna make that I thought was kind of interesting is I was from the old school too Carlo I remember where they'd like put a big macro on and this was like in the times of tape and it's like okay guys this is our macro you have to have three routes go through here like everyone has to use this. This is like the one we got um and I remember uh Max Zolotukin coming in and I mean he's from old school too but I remember him putting a bunch of hand holds on as footholds like I think they were like those technic sloper balls which are not cheap and he put them on like a V1 and it was like blasphemy but like was cool and new and different like using the hand holds for footholds and it was so expensive but it was like kind of like the ushering in of a of a new era where well we had money and it was like I don't know I thought that was kind of cool. I remember that like totally shifted my thinking. Yeah Max has always been good at like you know doing stuff that's a little outside the box for better or worse you know and that's that's how you push things forward you know yeah dude it was it was always interesting where you know having someone push that setting you'd have something be like hey this is like a you know handcuffed pocket and like that one Max that one didn't work sorry buddy good try that's just awesome you know to know yeah you gotta experiment to know for sure. Yeah okay complete left turn you guys Fontainebleau is on fire um hopefully it's out by now when you're hearing this uh and I don't know why that's big giant news other than it's like a beautiful place that I love very

Forest Fires In Fontainebleau

SPEAKER_00 29:43

much and I was just sad to see it be on fire and I just wanted to you know send my condolences to all the beautiful boulders that are stuck there. And I will say that we've seen a lot of fires and climbing areas through the years and I I feel like if it's your first time hearing about something like this it's easy to kind of catastrophize but like forest burn um sometimes rock climbs do get ruined sometimes they don't you know be sensitive to that area maybe don't all go there right now or really soon. But also know that like part of nature you know we've had some bad fires here in the Tahoe area. It really changes the landscape um sometimes it can even like make other boulders new boulders show up that you know were uh had too much vegetation um and still really just sad for that whole community uh but you know just wanted to shed some light on like this does happen this is part of the cycle of nature and life but let's be gentle on that area due to the fire.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

I saw Charles post that the fires shouldn't affect the boulders too much.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

I I don't know how he knows this or anything but I saw him comment that and he's like the grandfather of the forest I feel like now so I think I think I'm sure that they're gonna have some effect for sure but hopefully not too much. But just wanted to point out that I think that I saw that it was human caused um at least the start of the fires and so that's something to like as climbers to be aware of you know people people do start fires you know and and just you know keeping tabs and seeing what other people are doing out there hopefully can prevent those types of things in the future. But yeah I mean honestly I just hope the you know the locals uh have been safe through all of it and I hope the economy does okay in that area and that um the wildlife can return in a good way but honestly it's caterpillars.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Except for those chicken caterpillars.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yeah I mean uh sometimes those things kind of tend to make certain problems like that worse, you know? So um but yeah except for the caterpillars right so I I shouldn't say that they're they're part of the ecosystem I'm sure the caterpillars have some other function but yeah yeah um but yeah they're they're definitely a problem. I don't know have you heard about the caterpillars there Austin? No I have no clue. There's like these these caterpillars that are like toxic that can cause like respiratory distress and like rashes and stuff and they come out in the spring um and because it's been getting warmer and warmer they've been kind of proliferating in the area. And um I forget what the name of them is but they're they're essentially just like a caterpillar that the little um hairs on them are poisonous to like humans. And during certain times of the year the wind will blow and it'll blow a bunch of the hairs of the caterpillars into the air out of these nests and you can like breathe in the hairs and it'll like start giving you like lung problems. Oh my God. And then having babies around like when we were there with my my daughter like you've got to be careful what she touched and like what she grabbed because she touched a caterpillar she get like rash and then if it got in her mouth it can be like it can be fatal because it can like your mouth can like swell up to the point where you can't breathe and stuff. So it's kind of full on. Wait yeah that's fine. I've never had a bad experience with them. I've seen them but I've never had a bad experience with them but I've heard of some some pretty bad experiences.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

So yeah a little bit. Yeah yeah I mean some people have like no issues with them I I haven't had any issues but because I have my kids there's always something kind of on my radar and I think the reason they stand out so much is because font feels like the safest most idyllic forest you've ever been in like my kids I'm like just go run just like you do whatever you do go out there it's fine and it's like oh except for the killer caterpillars that kind of look like you know leave they look friendly and happy and like yeah they look like nice little caterpillars to play with that's how they get you. Yeah exactly come play with me. Well yeah I I don't know I just thought it was uh worth calling a little attention to and yeah wishing everyone over there good luck and it's it's also a good reminder like said Carlo that I don't know one person can wreck it for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

So yeah and I would urge people going back to font like you know in the fall or next spring to like really pay attention to like what the the rules around these fire zones are to make sure that those ecosystems can rebound and um figuring out how they can kind of help support the local communities there um in in the rebound from the fires. I think all that stuff's really important for an area like that.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

So I know here in the Tahoe area when there's a big fire that the trees can be left standing even though they're dead and it can be really risky. Like I've uh there's places that I used to sleep near Yosemite that I no longer would want to sleep uh at you know so I I don't know if that's people have died in Tahoe people have died falling dead trees.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

And you know even I went out to Kirkwood you know a couple weeks ago and I had a couple of trees fall while we were hiking.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

So wow you did yeah I know where you're talking about and it feels sketchy out there. It's kind of like yeah and it happens. I'm not sure uh if that would happen I just don't know how it all works with different trees like we kind of have like these big pine trees that may handle fire differently than uh a forest like Font and blue but something to be aware of that trees can fall over.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Um so just you know heads up uh the funny thing actually when I was in font uh a couple years ago or like a year and a half ago um I had a tree fall literally five feet in front of me on like a major trail in font and it was like not it probably wouldn't have killed me but it definitely would have messed me up. But it was like probably six inches thick and like 20 feet tall. And it just like I'm walking the trail and it just goes like right on the trail in front of me. So I was like what the hell? Like yeah I was like what was that? It was like literally right in front of me. And I was like luckily I was paying attention I could kind of hear it creak and I just saw it out of the corner of my eye and I just stopped and it just was like it's freaky. You never know what's going to come and get you you know we do dangerous sports like climbing all day and then you go walk in the woods and tree just falls on you.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

You get got by the way it's your time.

Support From Patreon

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who helped make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else and those episodes are ad-free. As a patron you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay back to the pod. Okay uh wanted to shout out the kind of current goat of our sport maybe of all time I guess that's what goat stands for Adamantra flashed four eight Bs uh

Adam Ondra Flashes 4 8B's In A Day

SPEAKER_00 36:26

and an 8A no I'm not sad uh I just I was like I was like okay this made the news it's dude no I I hate to say it but I just I no it's not boring at all but just after I talked to Adam and I got to do a podcast with him something that stuck in my head is how he said that while he flashed a bunch of V15s he said he didn't think people appreciated how close his flashing was to his red pointing and that you know just was an element of like really good execution and preparation maybe a dose of luck. And so of course flashing four eight Bs in a day is wild. I just I don't know I I think it's probably not the most amazing thing he's ever done. I think it it does show the state of climbing right now and um I I mean he did pin it on his Instagram. I like couldn't find it for a while on his Instagram feed and they pinned it so I guess that showcases that either he thinks it's valuable or his social media team does but I I don't know I um it's amazing but somehow it just was like yeah good job Adam it's like our monthly reminder that Adam Andra is pretty good at rock climbing. Yeah cool looking boulders too by the way I mean that's the other thing I mean yeah that's the other thing about flashing and when we talk about Laura Rogora just tearing up sport crags like there is just this element of like tons of badass climb. Like how fun is it? I just I guess that's what I always think about is just going and just getting to climb everything quickly and experiencing all those moves like just sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Although I feel like obviously I haven't flashed like super hard boulders. I flash them hard enough boulders right but I feel like when I flash a boulder I almost I don't appreciate it as much as when I get to spend I guess that makes sense but I you know even on like something like a if I flash a 12 and don't flash a 12 the 12 I don't flash I feel like I get to appreciate more which I guess yeah I guess that just makes sense. You spend more time with it.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Every harder boulder that I've flashed I've always been done and been like that's gotta be just soft as shit you know like I'm always like is that v10 maybe if it's like 12 you know or something like is that is that just not that hard like yeah even on like the board climbs if I do have I'm having a good board sesh I have to go look at the angle of the board again.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

I'm like am I sure is this really 45 degrees did I do that at the right angle that's funny.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Maybe maybe it's boulders that aren't as satisfying as flashing. I find onsighting routes very satisfying because you you get to do like a ton I just feel like literally like you get to do a lot of climbing and maybe that's just me like of course I value hard moves and trying my best but there's some element of just literally getting to spend more time physically climbing. And it's why sport climbing is fun in a different way than bouldering or or you know big walls or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Yeah I I I really enjoy on-siding on a rope way more than I enjoy trying to flash boulders. Like I feel like flashing boulders tends to just be like if you get in the zone and everything works then it's just like it's done and it's over. Whereas like on siding on a rope is like this crazy like sometimes it's kind of like almost like a spiritual journey of like getting in your own head but then also being like instinctual and like you you get like very into your thing, you know? And it's like once you get sucked into that zone, you can be in it for like a really long time and like I like love that battle of like being like oh shit like that sequence wasn't right and then like coming back down and then like recovering and like retrying something else or like doing quick adjustments kind of on the fly but then the moves aren't too hard that they're gonna knock you off but you know that they're like zapping your total like bar of power and like endurance and stuff. And it's like there's so many layers to it that you're like trying to pull together that I've I've I mean I love love love on siding on a row. Most of the time because I feel like I'm not doing it perfectly but because the level is like not at the max you can just keep going and it's kind of like oh shit I got to arrest and then you can recover and you're like still on the wall and like yeah there's just like this longer term you know focus and fight that goes behind it. Whereas like a flash like I mean not that I don't appreciate a boulder flash but it it almost feels like so quick and and and just like final that it's like yeah you get stuck in that zone for like a short period of time but I I think I appreciate the more longer term battle. I got to tie in more yeah that sounds fun it's fun it's fun to just get on stuff where you're like I literally have no I have no knowledge of what's ahead of me and I'm just gonna kind of like sort it out on the go. And I think I I mean I think I've mentioned this on the podcast more I think people would benefit a lot as climbers to try to on-site roots more even if you're not a rope climber just dial the grade back a bunch and just get into that like fight mentality of like I am going to figure this out I'm gonna get to the chains no matter what it is. And even if I'm like I do everything wrong I'm just gonna keep trying to move up you know what I mean? And I think that that fight mentality goes like a really long way. So for sure. And now everyone's gonna think that I'm saying you should only on site all the time I heard that yeah you're gonna clip that you guys are gonna clip that Josh and uh and yeah it's only on-siting forever do not project anything projecting doesn't help you at all Carlo Traversi has never projected in his life exactly uh real quick sidebar Carlo what was that I think it was like a 13c or 8A plus that you on-sited in Sayus that you were really amped on that was like a was it face to rat is that what no uh uh Femme Blanc yeah Femme Blanc extra Femme Noir yeah yeah and that was yeah 8A plus or whatever I was on the wall for like an hour and a half I think that that that day I my buddies heading to Sayus and he asked me for my like kind of tick list my like because I always keep like a lifetime tick list and face to rat was this one that I always wanted to do it's like an amazing looking thing. Yeah never tried it but it looks good. Yeah. All right. Femme Blanc yeah the right side I think it's like near the demiloon area like to the right of like um you know where you know biography is and and and those stuff. But yeah just it starts off like gently overhanging and then it kind of almost goes to slab at the top and it's massive and it's like very cool climbing perfect rock. It's just like it's insane. Yeah. But I was like really psyched. It was like kind of those ones where I was like I feel like onsighting today like it'd be fun and I was like what about this one? And I knew nothing about it at all. And I was just like I'm gonna start going. And yeah it was it has like these nice breaks in it where it's like you get a rest but then you do like a long chunk of like kind of resistant small hold climbing that the sequence isn't super obvious but there's a lot of options you know and then you get a rest and so you get these checkpoints. But then like I would find myself like messing up the beta and then down climbing like huge chunks of the route to get to a rest. You know and I was like it was like this up down yo yo thing where I was people must have been looking at me like what is that guy doing up there? But I was like I was just committed to being like I am going to on site this route. Yeah. And it was yeah it was it was I mean I didn't do it. Like I fell at the anchor and I still feel like from that trip that was maybe one of my favorite I did the route second try but that first try experience was one of my favorite experiences that entire trip. So that's sick.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Okay on site flashes first tries Matt Mendes making it back on the podcast for another first try Of uh 8B Plus. Um, Matt, we just like giving you crap, man.

Matt Mendes Climbs Another 8B+ First Try

SPEAKER_00 44:05

I mean, because you're an absolute beast. And I don't know, you wrote first go on this 8B Plus that you did. Sounds like maybe he had done the top also on some other one, but the read I got from it was that he had tried to pull on and failed to pull on maybe like a few years ago and then went back and did it first try. So let's just I don't know if he had it if the top or easy move shares with some other climb because that just that's not a flash. We we all know. And I also want to preface this by saying Matt Mendes just cheekily is like it's a first go. He doesn't give a shit flash is strong and and having a blast. Um uh but in our chat, like I thought it was interesting this idea of if you try to pull on and fail to pull on, does that count as a try and thus invalidate your flash?

SPEAKER_02 44:56

I think as simple as it is, if your feet leave the ground, invalidate. If one foot stays in the ground, your fair game. Nothing else matters. That's my opinion. Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

I mean, it's the same in a comp. Like the attempt doesn't start until your foot leaves the ground. The last foot leaves the ground. Keep it simple. Or last point.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Normally I try to play devil's advocate, but uh I I 100% agree. I thought maybe there was more discussion over it because Will sounded like he thought that maybe it didn't count, but he's not here to defend himself. So we'll just uh here, so we're just gonna roll with his own.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

I will say that boulder, the boulder that Matt did, low-key. I've always wanted to do that boulder.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Are you sure? Because it looks the same as all the other limestone boulders.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

I don't yeah, I don't know what the difference is. You start like I'm not here to dog on you. I'm not here to doggone UK limestone today. To be honest, I'm at a point where I'm not I'm not climbing outside enough right now that pretty much anything looks good. So uh yeah, I I would do it right now. Yeah, for sure. If I nearby, I would jump on it.

unknown 45:54

Wow, wow.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Okay, other sense that I just had to bring up because I thought this was so freaking cool is this new 9A plus FA by I'm gonna say his name wrong. It's Leo Beau. I'm just gonna put it out there. He called it the edge of the world, and it's like the whole flat yanger cave. It's like the whole freaking thing. It's 130 meters, dude. Like 130 meters. When I climb 40 meter climbs, I'm like, dude, I've been on here for like 30 minutes. I'm exhausted. I like I'm thinking about some of my on-sites in like limestone where I get to do no hands rest, and I still can't recover somehow. Like, and so the idea that he could just climb for 130 meters is amazing, sounds super fun. Uh, three rope changes, or no, no. Well, how do you how'd they say it? He was he had three ropes in a rope.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Two two two rope swaps or something, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Well, no, I know it sounds like he had three, so yeah, yeah, that I thought this was really interesting because you're like, yeah, how you make that work. It says that at each knee bar rest, he clipped directly into his last piece of protection and then pulled the rope through all the like just pulled it. And that's just kind of wild, dude. That's like a lot of effort, dude. Can you imagine having to pull the rope too? Like get pumped just from pulling that much rope.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

So sick though.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

I think it's cool that he like, you know, there's a bolting band there right now, and he he found a way to add a new route that you know didn't require it by just putting trad gear in, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Since he put trad gear in, it's it's is it a like I know it's a sport clan, but does he leave that there? Or if someone wants to repeat it, do you like go put the trad gear in and then do it as a sport climb? You know what I mean? Will yeah, Will wanted us to point this out.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Yeah, so he didn't place it on lead, right? He pickpointed it. Yeah, he pickpointed it. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Which I think, I mean, I don't know. I mean, it it obviously someone could improve upon the style by placing the gear on lead, you know? That's like an obvious improvement on that style, but um but yeah, I mean it's still like a new route and new terrain, not having to add bolts. I think that's right.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

So you know pingpointing is basically just sport climbing it, basically, like more or less.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Yeah, I mean, it depends how good those placements are.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Okay. Yeah, I mean, so often I mean, oftentimes though, like trad gear is better than a bolt, you know, in some of these areas that things weren't bolted well or the bolts haven't been inspected properly. I mean, I I trust a lot of times in areas that I I don't know a lot about the bolts, I'd trust trad gear almost more because you can be there and inspect it and see what's going on with it.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

So damn, Austin, is that how you think? Do you trust trad gear? Do you trust your trad placements more than bolts? Because I feel like that's Carlo, not me.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

I put trad gear in on a top rope one time and I still didn't trust it.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

I think my point here would be don't trust bolts as much as you do, probably. Yeah, 100%. That's totally fair. Depending on their location and how recently they've been maintained, like people do need to be a little bit more questioning of the hardware they're using. And you know, it there's nothing wrong with like knowing a bolt has been replaced recently, or it's like one of the ASCA hardware that's been updated, you know, and and those things uh most of the time are like absolutely bomber and totally okay to trust perfectly, or you maybe you placed it and you know how it went in. But I think sometimes people are a little bit too like cavalier with bolts of being like, oh, this isn't going anywhere. And that's not always the case, you know.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

They you you guys ever pull a bolt? Oh, yeah. Have you guys ever pulled a bolt? Yeah, I have too. Yeah, dude, that is that definitely shook me. I did it when I was like 10 years old. Oh, so it like that that actually definitely stuck in my head. Never forget that.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

I've pulled a lot of bolts. I've literally just pulled them out of the wall when I got to them, like put it put a quick draw on it and been like, wait, this one feels loose, and then you're just like, oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Well, that's one thing. It's one thing to like literally pull, because like I've had that happen where you're like, oh, dude, this is not in, but like pulling it like on accident, or you know, like you didn't realize it and then had it blown. Like you took a giant whip and blew. Yes, but it wasn't uh the bolt I was on, it was the first bolt. So and I had hung, I had hanged on that first bolt, and then on the second or third bolt, it the first bolt ripped when I fell.

SPEAKER_03 49:56

Damn.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Yeah, I had I had a similar, I've had a similar similar experience. I've never had a bolt rip while I fell on it, like the one that I'm hanging on. But I have like clipped, I clipped in direct in Yosemite one time to um a bolt and or or I I clipped into it and took, and when I took and the rope pulled tight, the bolt under me pulled out of the wall.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

So it was like I was still fine. I was just sitting there, but I was like, oh shit, that thing just ripped out of the wall on me. Now you're looking at yours like, oh fuck. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but it's like look at mine like fortunately, I was really high above the ground, like, and it was a clean fall. So like even if I'd have taken like a 30, 40 foot whip, I'd have been totally fine. So it was like, yeah, you don't want to take a massive whipper, but I was like not gonna hit anything, luckily.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

This is this is one of these things that like it was so drilled into me, like have two points of protection, like just always have two points of protection. And I don't know if people like if you just are being the gym, you like trust these bolts, like there's a reason. Like, shit does fail, like it does go bad. And if you're out there long enough, you will see it too. And just I don't know. Like, I mean, maybe it's better, but I was in Mallorca, man, it was a many years ago, and I went to some sport crag that probably used to be amazing, but it was out in the middle of nowhere, had to be like an hour and a half hike. I climb up some random 512, and the bolts, every I like I screwed in the nut on every single one. They were wiggly. I grabbed this one jug, a bat came out of there, and I was just like, I was like, dude, I should not be here. Like this, this needs some TLC. I yeah, I need to like I just want down. I just I do I just bailed. I was like, I'm out, like this is not safe. This is wrong.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

If you're anywhere near the ocean and you're dealing with like, you know, wedge anchors or you know, five pieces or anything like that, like I would always be very suspect. I think nowadays it's like it's if it's near anywhere near salt water, like it's gotta be a titanium glue in, or else you gotta be like careful for sure. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

Uh real quick shout out to Hazel Findlay, who did her project, an E10. Uh gosh, I don't know how to pronounce this. It's like Emoheid. Just, you know, I I was just I

Hazel Findlay Sends Her E10 Project

SPEAKER_00 52:07

just did a podcast with her. She was incredible. She was like, hey, I'm working on my project. Oftentimes when I am scheduling something with guests, it's like, uh, like, could we have like a three-day window for when we record this? Because like I've got a project, and there's like weather windows, and I'm totally used to that, and just cool to see it that she came out on the other side, uh, which is cool because E10 is no joke. Um, you know, I I don't know what it would be like 514 Trad, you know, is what she did, which is incredible.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Um yeah, and she's a mom, you know, and like business and like they're they're really active parents, and yeah, I think it's cool that she's been able to keep rolling with you know the hard climbing sends while also being a parent in that way is is rad. So it's not easy to do. Knowing it, knowing the process is not easy.

SPEAKER_00 52:51

So yeah, for fear of alienating uh people who don't know about the sci-life, she posts about like she's still breastfeeding. I know I know from talking to her that she didn't sleep that much because of having a kid that some kids sleep well, some kids don't. And something that a lot of people probably uh don't know about is breastfeeding really changes your whole body's uh like ligaments and tissues, and there's like a a relaxing effective like it's things change when you have a kid. Um uh and so just props to her for still sending at an elite level, right when she's still in the middle of having kids, you know, things will change every day for her and go back hopefully more normal.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. E10, Jesus. Yeah, Hazel's a great climber. Psyched to see her keep yeah, keep plugging away on her projects and stuff. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Okay, uh if Allison was here, we would go deeper into comps and world climbing uh because she has her finger more on the pulse in there, and we clearly do not have our finger on the pulse. Uh uh, but she did point out that there was Pan Am's recently in Salt Lake, and there was no U.S. athlete on the podium for the first time ever. That was uh only in the female uh sport category. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. God, Allison, we need you. But we got Austin. Okay. Hopefully I'm right about that. Austin, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Josh already spreading spreading untruths here, you know. Yeah. Because I think Jesse won for the men, for the the sport.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Oh, okay for Jesse. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. I didn't pay attention to the results super well, but um, but I think Allison made a mention about the the conditions, you know, and and how hot it was and how difficult it was for people to climb in that. And that was something that I kind of wanted to touch on because um I do think like, you know, competitions are based on like a general level of fairness for competitors. And I think that um, you know, with heat being a a real disadvantage um for for climbing, um, especially on plastic, I think can be really, really bad. Um I mean outdoor rock as well, but but in the competition standpoint, I do think the federations and you know the organizers need to do a better job of like uh having venues that they can have a little bit more control over conditions throughout the day. So I mean my my experience was um in uh when I in 2018 I did the world championships in Innsbruck and um it was cold in the mornings and the climbing started at like 8 a.m. and then by like 11 or noon it was like 30, 40 degree Fahrenheit difference. And the wall went into the sun later in the day. And it was like I started climbing because I wasn't ranked super high, I started climbing pretty late. And I was like, I was in a down jacket when I went into ISO, and then when I came out, I was like in shorts, just immediately sweating. And I was like, this is crazy. Like this is like I mean, the difference in my ability to climb was like uh these boulders completely changed, you know. And and I remember uh that year I talked to Adam Andra in ISO and he was complaining about it as well because he hadn't competed in any events that year or mini events, and so he was ranked in the international ranking like not high. And that meant that he uh qualif his qualifying position was much, much later, and he was just like, This is ridiculous. He's like, I don't know how you expect anyone who's qualified later to ever push through into a semis when they're forced to compete in like vastly different conditions from from everybody that goes out you know from from the start. So I do think some work needs to be done in getting those those things. Whether it's just only having comps in the summer inside where they can control the weather a little bit better, or maybe just doing it across multiple days in different segments so that you can you can control conditions a little better. But I think it's something that needs to be paid attention to.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

Did Adam Andrew win though, anyways?

SPEAKER_01 56:41

I think he I I don't remember exactly. Like I I'd be drawing from memory, but I remember it was a tough round for him in the bouldering. Um I think in sport climbing they had a lot of the event indoors, which helped with everything. Because I think he he did well in the sport climbing, but I don't remember I mean he climbed well for sure, but but I think you also underestimate the toll it takes. So like if you have to do a whole round in really, really hot weather, maybe you make it through because you're better than everyone else and you just have that higher level. But what if you lost like way more skin that round than somebody would who or you just had to fight way harder to get through? Um that that's that's a major difference. Maybe, maybe you got through it because you were able to figure it all out, but but that that means that maybe you were kind of sabotage for the later rounds compared to somebody else who who got kind of an easy route throughout through the qualifiers. So um, yeah. I mean, obviously Adam's Adam, you know, and I I think he it wasn't like he didn't make semis or something like that because of it was too warm, but uh but yeah, something like that's heinous out there.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

I mean, even it's not even like just the the conditions for the climate, like at Vale in semifinals, I qualified second right behind Adam, and we were in ISO for so long, and there were what six chairs in ISO for competitors to sit in. And unluckily, I got the one chair that was in the sun, and I asked all the can I just move a foot to the left in the shade? And they were like, no. And I was like, so I just I'm like, I have to sit in the sun. Yeah, like you're telling me I have to sit here while everyone else I'm competing with gets to sit in. So it's like, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I feel like there could definitely be much better.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

Like, I'm fine with bad conditions as long as everyone has to deal with them the same way, or at least relatively the same way. Like, that's fine. That's the same for everybody. Everybody's just sweating it out, and like it is what it is in the sun, you know, that's fine. But but when you've got like some people that are in like shady, cold conditions, and then you know, a little bit later, people are in like full sun and super hot. That's it's just very unfair, in my opinion. It's like completely unfair.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

Yeah. Um, it's funny because we talked about like what the values are of the competition in general, like what was what's the goal of the competition? And I think kind of the thing we didn't talk about that much is that a lot of the goals of competition is for spectators and to kind of I don't know if make money is the the right word. I don't think anyone's it's a show. Yeah, I don't think anyone's getting super rich off of putting on uh climbing competitions, but it's a show for spectators, and uh you know, the idea of having it outside and being able to have more spectators have you know, like that Innsbruck uh wall, or I I'm thinking of like the lead wall, that's like gorgeous, man. Like that, that is awe-inspiring. Um, and so the idea of having to go indoors to make it more fair, which I agree as a competitor, as someone who has competed, and I really would want my fair shake at it. Um I'm not sure that they care in a way, right? Like it's like they're like, yeah, we don't care about you athletes. We want the best show possible. And you know, I could make arguments about why having it be a consistent chance for each competitor leads to a better show, but I don't know if that trumps like the grandeur and the ease of having a big outdoor venue. Um, and maybe they just have to have it be north facing or or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:02

I feel like even just randomizing the running order instead of like making all the the like highest qualified, I don't know, like there's a way where you make it random. So, yeah, you got unlucky this time, but you're probably not gonna get unlucky next. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like even that would make it feel more fair.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

Like a randomization of it is like, damn, I just got the bad, I got bad luck this time. Yeah, exactly. Just like, oh, because I couldn't compete, you know, in some of the earlier events that now like I don't yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

Wasn't there some eight A article about uh about like how you know holds get caked with chalk as time goes on and they noticed that the the later climbers rarely made the next round uh like more statistically than than they shouldn't have? I'm not saying that right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

I'm not sure, but that that sounds legit.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:51

Yeah, yeah. You guys experienced that?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:53

Yeah, yeah. I think there was there was something that showed like right after brushing breaks or something like that, that there was like people did typically did a little bit better, especially on like sport routes or something, but it was probably not much of a study and more like you know, maybe Jens just just kind of like rifling whatever information he had.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

Oh, that's so good. That's such a good throwback. I feel like that doesn't get talked about as much. There was an era that that was a that's a good era. Um Yen's Jens says uh legend. Okay, I feel like I can I hear Garrett Greger in my ear right now. I I did a a podcast with him, he set for the Olympics, and uh something that was interesting that he brought up was just this idea that the best athletes they make it work no matter what. And his example was how like Stephen Curry was is a shorter basketball player, and then he got extremely good at three-point shots. Did they even like change the line? I I don't know, I shouldn't talk about basketball. This is so embarrassing. Yeah, um, but but like I guess like just the the idea is is that like if you're good, like you just figure it out somehow. We can never make it equal. Like we're talking about like hold brushing. I'm not saying that means that we shouldn't like do our best to give athletes all an equal shot, but there's always gonna be something that's off in each, you know, whether it's the route setting, the brushing, the conditions.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

I mean, I'm not saying anyone needs to like make it like perfect and like exactly the same for everybody, but I do think that there needs there can't be such a big variation in like the conditions. It's like honestly, like it it feels almost just like the cards are just stacked too high against you with that big of a condition change, you know? Like seeing in Innsbruck that big of a of a temperature change for like over the course of like a six-hour qualification session, that was like this goes from being like a very manageable event to being like, why did I even come here? You know, this is like pointless, in in my opinion. Um, it was like not easy to to to try to feel like you you could make any headway, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

For sure. And I was like another example from Vale was there was this slab that was in the shade for the morning session, and it was like the easy boulder in the morning. And then in the second session, there was a lot of good climbers in that session, and it I don't know if it got topped. It might have not got topped once, and that was our easy boulder, you know, and like the climbers in that second session are amazing comp climbers for sure, and like, yeah, the best climbers maybe will figure out a way around it and whatever, but I just don't know if that's really true because I I it's I don't want to say that like climbing is is like different than basketball because it it's like all sports are like in one way or another kind of similar, I feel like, and whatever. But in basketball, I feel like you watch all the documentars and they're like, oh, I like push my hardest at every day. I I'm in the gym in the morning, in the afternoon, and at night. And at clim in climbing, I feel like if you did that, you would explode. Like you would die. Like you can't force it with climbing as much as you can force it with something like basketball, at least to me. That's how I view it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

I don't know, maybe I'm not into basketball enough to know better, but well, uh you know, if you're using like the basketball reference with Steph Curry, it's like Steph Curry just got better at other things that like helped him kind of like stand out. And like I feel like in climbing with like conditions, it's like the those are factors that you're not gonna like navigate around in in the same way. Like you can't just be like like, yeah, I mean rubber, rubber deforms easier in the heat. Like you sweat when in I mean, unless you go get the surgery or whatever, like you're gonna sweat in the heat, you know, like from somewhere, you know, like you're gonna be hotter and you're gonna, you know, like your body's gonna warm up, you know, and you're not gonna be able to perform at the same level because you're like undergoing like heat heat stress, you know, and and things like that. So your body's gonna work harder, you know, to do what it's doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

So all right, all right. I agree with you guys. I just want to, you know, argue a different side of it. And you can see my basketball analogy, probably not so good because I called him Stephan Curry, and he's known as Steph Curry as Stephanie Curry. His name's Stephen Curry. It's Stephan. Okay, well, even better example. I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:03

That's crazy. Uh even worse now. You made it worse. I watch a lot of basketball, so so I know I know it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

I I can talk a little bit about it, but I've even seen him play at the at the stadium stuff too, back when I I used to live right by that uh Warrior Stadium. Okay, uh do you guys want to leave it there as our ethics segment? We could touch on one of them if you want. I really like the pad stacking ethics. Austin, do you wanna I I mean I don't I was gonna say, like, can you set it up, but like really it's just like what's

Ethics Segment: Is It Okay To Start With A Pad Stack?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:31

the ethics with pad stacking in relation to bouldering, and just yeah, what's your take?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

I don't know if I have a hot take about this because okay, so the sit start was such a big thing, right? Like saying this is a sit start, your butt is on the ground. But to me, the sit start is inherently morpho. So I personally feel like if you're gonna say a boulder is a sit start, that it's all obviously like personal, but a little bit of pad stacking is. Kind of okay. Because some people a cyst start is a p like is unreachable, you know what I mean? It's just like my arms are gonna be maybe more straight than your arms, and pulling off the ground is gonna be two V grades harder or something like this. So the way I see it is you either have to accept pad stacks or accept that the cis start is stupid and squat starts are the best.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:23

It's not just accepting that. I think the question is like if you if you abide by the rule of like uh start holds rather than like your ass needs to be on the ground, then it doesn't really matter what the stack is. It's like as long as you're starting on those start holds. I mean, there may be situations that, yeah, stacking more pads is gonna make pulling off on those start holds easier. Um and that that can change things for sure. So it's not it's not a hundred percent in that way, but I do think you get closer to coming up with uh a a good rule around pad stacking if you assume that we're we're doing start holds as the I like that way more as your your position um to begin a climb rather than whether it's a stand or a sit-start, essentially. I think I've already talked about the stand and sit-start thing. I'm not a fan of like you know, a stand start being wherever you can pull off the ground from standing and sit start being wherever you can pull off the ground from sitting. I'm not a fan of that. I've said that many, many times. I'm not a fan of the street.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

Started in Fantablue. So you burned down the fours just because you were upset about their rules there.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:31

That's great. I mean, I've we've talked about the history of it either on here or on other podcasts. There's a history of it. I understand the history. Like I get it. You know, I understand why it was that way. With the modern era of like guidebooks and a video and a photo of every single climb, I don't think it's that hard to start to assimilate with the start-hold. You know, if it's a stand start, then you mark the stand start holds. And if it's a sit-start, you mark the sit-start holds. But having your ass on the ground or squatting or whatever, I feel like is just not, in my opinion, that big of an importance. And and once you've assumed that, now you don't have to have an argument necessarily about the pad stacks to some degree, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:12

I feel like also like clams nowadays, I feel like are so obvious. They're like the start holds are usually the start holds, the stand start holds, you're like, oh, you can guess. And maybe that is just like our vision. I mean, vision has just changed throughout time, right? Like we we don't have to be like, oh, sis start on the footholds of this like classic thing where you know what I mean? Now we're we can just see what's possible and we pick the lines that we pick now.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:37

And I know I'll get I know I'll get lit up by the European population for the because you know there's there's a certain historical love of like the sit start and and the stand start, and and I get it. Like I'm not saying I don't get it, and and I'm just saying that this is just my opinion as someone who's traveled and climbed a good amount that that I I'm not a fan of it. Um but I understand it. Like I mean, I understand the perspective of it, I understand where it comes from a historical standpoint. And and yeah, I do think that if you're abiding by the stand start and sit start rules, then the pad stacking becomes more complex. Um and and that's that's it's a it's a much bigger discussion, but I almost feel like I don't really want to get too much into the the nuances of that because I don't see it that way. Like I don't s I don't like the rules of the stand start and sit start um as opposed to the the the start hold rules.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:25

But I'll defend you in the Instagram comments. I appreciate that, dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:30

I I just think it's the wrong thing for people to even worry about or focus on. And if you have friends that are giving you crap about this, like get better friends. Like when I'm with someone and like let's say I'm with like my wife is is short, like I don't tell her like oh actually you have to sit start, honey. Yeah, I'll like I I will like literally like lift her up and put her on like the best start and then be happy for her when she sends. You you know, it's like, and if you're I mean, if you're someone that's like trying to establish the world's first V18, I don't know, then you are really transparent. Like, here's the video, here's how I started. And you know, you can like worry about that, but I I just would say like you kind of know when you're cheating almost, right? And like of obviously cheating is maybe in this scenario something a little more subjective, and you're like, oh, I guess I shouldn't have put three pads, but you you kind of know, like, and sometimes I'll be with my friends who are a little bit taller and we'll have to start and like you know, we don't have too many pads, and like I can barely reach it. I can see it's really hard for me to pull on compared to them. And sometimes I'll fold a pad and I don't feel bad about it, or sometimes I just suck it up because it's like not that big a deal. Um, but all that like it's just on the on these fringe things, it doesn't really matter over time. Like, this isn't gonna make or break you.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:53

Go climbing, go climbing, have fun. If the rules feel like they're not being fun for you, then then don't abide by them and just have fun. But understand too that like, you know, if you're trying to make it a profession or you're trying to like do something bigger with it, that you are gonna be subjected to, you know, a lot more of a critical eye when it comes to those types of decisions. Like, there's plenty of times where I've gone out and just started boulders wherever I felt like I wanted to, but like I'm not taking the send on it necessarily because I don't necessarily know what the rules are for like what most people do with it. But I'm just trying to enjoy myself and enjoy climbing, you know, but not spending all the time getting hung up on those rules, I think is a good way to go. And I mean, we've we've you know, we've talked about this on the podcast, like you know, we're always trying to the the perfect climb is like the no pads, no equipment, naked barefoot ascent. And it's like, yeah, if you want to get better, start taking all of those things away. So you don't have a pad to stack, you don't have, you know, you don't have shoes, you don't have you know, it's like if you want to find ways to improve your ascent, then like keep working your way towards that, I guess. But um but otherwise, like if you're not enjoying it because of that, then do something that allows you to enjoy it and don't worry too much about the rules around it, you know? Especially if you're just a recreational climber, you know, like and you're not trying to make a a a job out of it or profession, like enjoy yourself. Like do what feels good to you and what you can you know feel good about challenging yourself in, you know. Like don't don't worry too much about what everyone else is doing. Unless you're beating me on a day. Exactly. And then stop doing that. We're gonna hold you by a really high high standard.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:32

I think you gotta get better friends that uh encourage you versus try to take you down a notch for some like pad stacking. Like when I hear that shit, sometimes I'm just like, this is who your friends are. I I will say my my one caveat to what you're saying, Carla, about just going having fun is that sometimes people use that to get away from doing a move that's yeah difficult for them. And like you gotta find the fun in being confronted with yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:58

The challenge is a part of it for sure. If you're just gonna dumb everything down to not be challenged at all, then I mean maybe that's okay for some people, but I do think that they're robbing themselves of some aspect of the experience that is beneficial.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:10

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:11

Okay, stack all you want, 10 pads, you do what you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:15

Or squat, just squat. That's what we that's I think that should be the just squat. Just squat.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:20

Just squat. That's a good way to end it. Okay. Um, you guys, let's move on to the bonus questions. Guys, save really missed uh well, loved having you guys here. Austin, you actually were late. Listeners don't know that, but you were somehow late again. Uh but yeah, missed Allison. Uh, wish you were here. Hope you're having fun in in Za. Hope that night of Pitico didn't didn't hit you too hard. What the hell is in Pitaco again? Is that like rubbing alcohol or no, like grain alcohol and passion fruit brandy fruit?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:50

Brandy. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:51

Yeah. Do you think they like actually make it out of passion fruit or you think they just take it?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:55

No, they literally just just take passion fruit and like like take the ju like actually just juice the passion fruits and then mix it with with uh with brandy, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:04

So it's so it's not like fermented passion fruit. No, it's just passion fruit brandy. It's great. Yeah, oh it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:11

But I feel like that's like I I always liked it because like I don't like hard alcohol really, but like it was really diluted. It was like really diluted, and like you know, like you people would be like, want to go do shots. It's like kind of a uh, you know, it's like a fun thing to do with people. And like I always hated it. I was like, no, I don't want to do shots. But the pittico was like really low alcohol for shots. And so you could do like four or five shots of pitico and it like didn't really feel like anything. So you got like all the fun, you got like all the fun of like doing shots with your friends, but it like didn't have the same like negative result or whatever. But not that I'm doing any shots nowadays, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:48

I mean it's sweet, it's like passion fruit. Like it's doing shots is fun. I was in uh I was in Seoul and someone took us out to a nice dinner there, and they got bottles of wine. I don't know if this was like uh you know a thing in Seoul, soju in South Korea. Well, there was soju, those that I got stories about that too. But with the wine, it was like always these little tiny cups of wine. It was like we would take like shots of wine, and it was fun because it just was like a constant cheersing. And uh, but I gotta say, you can get that stuff can sneak up on you, you know. Yeah. Okay, on to our bonus questions. If you want to hear that QA and other extra behind the scenes content from this episode and others, head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow, please share this episode with someone who would love it. Okay, see you next week.