#197 WC Routesetter’s Roundtable — The Future of Routesetting, How Hard Are World Cups, and Fixing The Scoring System

Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:00

If you're setting lead, you have to be pretty comfortable climbing on 14B, 14C. If you can't boulder double digits, it becomes pretty challenging on lead to be able to make your way up and have meaningful input on the route. In bouldering, a lot of the times there's somebody who climbs well into the mid double digits, and then you have some people who might climb V9, V10, but for the most part, it's pretty high-level climbers that maybe aren't quite interested in competing or previously competed, and they're they're not really up for it anymore, or they're just not quite at that level. Speaking for myself, like if I were to compete in a World Cup, I would take last for sure, but I would at least clip a couple bolts. So got that going for myself.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Welcome to the Test Piece Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com/slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Full house today, stacked with some of the top IFSC sitters in the world. Um actually, is it World Cup or what do you guys, is it WC or is it still IFSC? What can I say here?

SPEAKER_04 1:49

Oh, it's world world climbing. And uh I think now they're they're all referred to as a World Series event. So, you know, they go by like World Series bouldering, lead, speed.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

I think that, yeah, when the name's too long, you just have an acronym. I feel like IFSC just somehow rolls off the tongue for me. It's getting kind of I'm kind of struggling with the whole world climbing, but that was the voice of Mike Bacchino, and we've got Ryan Sewell. And uh provide some athlete context, we've also got Carlo Traversi on here as uh as a guest host for the first time. Welcome, Carlo, and meet Josh Horsley from Test Piece, of course. Boys, thanks for joining me this morning. I am psyched for this one. Uh I did want to start off by sharing how this chat came to be. Carlo and I did a good temps episode where our crew talked about competition and scoring. Uh got a little bit of flack for it on the internet. Such as this message from uh Mike saying, if you ever want an IFSC setter on the pod to learn some actual information, rather than Carlo ranting, let me know. So here we are.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Mike uh I thought Mike called me an idiot.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

I thought that was real.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

I thought that's what happened. Those were Josh's words, and I'm okay. Yeah, that makes it actually.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

I was intuiting, I was intuiting the undercurrent of the message, but Mike is a consummate professional and just kept it. Josh was trying to start drama. Well, and then uh I brought Mike on for the pre-interview with us, and he said that Carlo, you are a little too hard on my climbing accomplishments, and you disparage me, and I'm actually pretty good. So I said, Okay, let's do a podcast. Let's let's bring Mike and Ryan on. So yeah, Mike, I thought it'd be fun to start out by just asking why you thought Carlo was an idiot.

SPEAKER_04 3:34

Again, just for the record, Josh, those were your words and not mine. No, I mean, I you know, I think uh Carlo, I mean, you and I have known each other for quite a while. I've got a ton of respect for your opinion, and I also really appreciate the fact that you're like willing to share it and not worry about you know what just realistically what people are gonna say. I think it's valuable to do that. And yeah, I mean, I just thought it'd be really cool to have you know a different perspective. There's not a lot of podcasts out there where you have a high-level athlete who's done a lot of competing like Carlo, and then also having like the root setting perspective uh mixed in there. So I think the the back and forth and the conversations and questions and just topics could be really interesting. So yeah, just kind of a something that I've always thought would be really fun. So psych that we're getting it able to do it.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

No, and and and I mean, uh, you know, aside from the idiot comments, no, I'm I'm just um honestly, like that's one of my favorite things. I mean, obviously, I like love to talk about my perspective on stuff and my experiences with things, you know, and and there are some things that are are I have limitations on about what I've experienced. And I think particularly on like the high-end competition root setting side of stuff, that's like a a a glaring kind of blank spot for me in terms of understanding what happens behind the scenes. Like I've set for a ton of competitions, but they tend to be on the lower level, like local, regional, sometimes youth divisional side of stuff. Um, but you know, most of the higher level competitions, like nationals and and beyond, like I've tried to compete in as many of them as I can rather than be on the root setting end. Um and that was, you know, a clear career choice from from the get-go. Um but uh I think it's cool to have you guys here to be able to answer a lot of questions and kind of provide a lot of valuable insight into what we're missing and what we might have talked about previously that you guys can offer some more valuable perspective than what we have on it.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Yeah, I was uh I was half joking, but you know, it's always fun to see people who have been in the industry for so long on both sides of it, the route setting and the climbing. And I'm guessing, Carlo, have you ever competed during a competition that either Mike or Ryan has set at? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

I mean a lot, probably, to be honest. Yeah. I mean, honestly, more probably than I even like remember at this point. So it's been a lot of them.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Yeah, how long have you guys all known each other? Yeah, actually, maybe let's start out uh with a little bit of introduction for each of you guys, because while I've known about Ryan and Mike for a long, long time, uh, I don't know if the world always knows about the route setters for all these World Cups. So maybe Mike, you can start us out with a little introduction.

SPEAKER_04 6:16

Yeah, well, I get my name is Mike Bocchino. Uh it's been root setting for a very long time. I think it started like 2001. Um the pathway is not a straight line by any means. Uh I think I started setting for USA climbing events, like uh my first national was in 2012, like a youth national. Just kind of did a lot of events from there, like youth, adult, lead, boulder, up to becoming a national headsetter in 2018. And then I've been the head root setter for a bunch of different nationals, bouldering lead. And then more recently been setting for world climbing events, um, formerly IFSC events, and set five bouldering world cups, and then just this year um went and set a lead world cup in Shamini.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Ryan, can you uh can you help us out introduce yourself? You got it, Josh. Um, so Ryan Sewell. I live in Arbata, Colorado, which is like right in between Boulder and Golden. I've been setting since 2004 or five. Um I was a youth team kid, sort of climbing in 2003, and did all of the youth comp circuit all the way through kind of the early stages for the adult comp circuit. And I was really balancing setting while also trying to compete. And after a period of time when I was going up against guys like Carlo or Daniel Woods and just getting beat down day after day, I decided maybe the route setting path is a little bit better for me. Um, so I did my first national event in 2010. Um, my first international event would have been like 2018 or 2019, and I've set for uh maybe half a dozen or so uh high-level bouldering events, and then about eight or nine lead events. Currently about to go, actually, I leave on Friday to go to Coper, Slovenia to set for the League World Cup there, and then I also have Santiago later this year. So um that's most of my competition climbing background. I also um am the VP of route setting and experience for movement. Um I've been with movement since 2008 or 2009 um for a very, very long time. And so um, yeah, route setting has been my life, it's given me everything, and couldn't be happier about it.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Carlo, I know that you're most famous for your good temps episodes, but can you share a little bit about your uh competition side and competing there?

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Uh yeah, yeah. I guess I don't I don't talk too much about the competition side of stuff, but uh yeah, I started competing, you know, as a youth kid, um, probably starting in like 2002. Um, and I took third at a youth nationals, did a youth worlds in China in like 2005, I think it was. And then on the adult side, um, I was thinking a 12-time member of the U.S. national team. Um, pretty much placed like top six in nationals, top five, top six in nationals for like close to a decade. There was a couple years where I I didn't do so well, but um and competed in probably 20 or 30 different international events, both lead World Cups, um, bouldering World Cups, and I think three or four uh World Championship events where I competed in both bouldering and lead at those events. Also did a bunch of like international events that were not on the like the IFSC calendar, um, like just kind of random, just like one-off events out there. And then I competed a lot in um more of like those pro-level events in the US that were like cash purse comps, like Portland Boulder Rally and you know, like comps that you know the front used to put on and and other gyms around the country, um, which still exists, but maybe a little bit less of them than there was for a little while. But I used to kind of use those as like a way to make money essentially as a pro climber, was to do like five to ten of those per year, and usually I won a bunch of them. Oh yeah. And I also I won two um uh rope climbing national championships, um, which I always forget about. But that was 2009 and 2011. Um I took the first place at um at uh yeah, sport nationals.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

So uh I wish I forgot about those nationals that I won't so long ago.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

And I didn't I didn't really train for them specifically, so they felt kind of like weird when they happened, where you're just like, holy shit, I somehow won. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Well, you made me feel like I should tell everyone that I also used to compete. In fact, I won second place in nationals in 1995 for DCCA. So there you go. Nice um job. And I think I I competed in ABS. That is ancient though. Holy shit. Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

I think I was on top rope still, too. Yeah. That was before I was climbing Josh, so that's um but I also wanted to mention, like, I've I've known Ryan for over 20 years, I think, now. Um, and Mike for sure for probably 15 years as well. And um, I've worked a ton with Ryan. Um, not worked as much with Mike, but you know, obviously you've kept in touch with him over the years with various competitions and and other things going on. Um but uh but yeah, huge amount of respect for for both of you guys and Stoke to be here kind of chat about this stuff.

The Level Of International Competitions and How They've Changed

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Thanks for introducing yourselves, all you guys, uh, and taking that off my shoulders. Ryan, you said that when you were younger, you were competing with Carlo, Daniel Woods, um, and yeah, that whole age group was pretty stacked. And it made me uh wonder about being a high-level setter, setting for people at this level, and what that requires from you as a climber. Like how how strong does a route setter need to be to be able to set for the best in the world?

SPEAKER_01 12:08

I think what I tend to see at world climbing level advanced IFSC or whatever uh you want to call it, is if you're setting lead, you have to be pretty comfortable climbing on 14B, 14C. If you can't boulder double digits, uh it becomes pretty challenging on lead to be able to make your way up and have meaningful input on the route. In bouldering, I think it's quite similar, but the style in bouldering is so different than climbing outside on rock that it feels a little bit harder to point to it and say, you should climb V10 or V14 or whatever the number is. But you have a good variety of people on setting teams. A lot of the times there's somebody who climbs well into the you know mid double digits. Uh, and then you have some people who might climb V9, V10. Um, but for the most part, it it's pretty high-level climbers that maybe aren't quite interested in competing or previously competed and they're they're not really up for it anymore, or they're just not quite at that level. Um, speaking for myself, like if I were to compete in a World Cup, I would take last for sure. Um, but I would at least clip a couple bolts. So got that going for myself.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Did you say that you want to be able to climb double digits on a rope? Is that I I kind of pulled that out of there. Where does that mean that some of these lead finals, or or I don't know if those are the hardest routes, maybe it's in semis, but have potentially double-digit boulders on the rope climbing section?

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah, for sure. Mostly double-digit bouldering.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

In years that I've competed, I think my last rope climbing world championships was in Innsbruck in like 2018, and it felt like the whole route was like borderline like V10 climbing like the whole way. It's like it's not easy. I think people forget that when they see route climbers because everything looks like a little bit more chill as they keep going up, but you are you are trying very hard just to stay on the wall from the get-go, pretty much.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Mike, what do you think about the requirements for route centers as far as just their their ability? And yeah, I guess I'm I'm looking for how big that gap can be and how you understand what you know a V15 or harder is if you're you know, what level do you have to be able to climb at to make sure that the boulder problem hits that mark you guys are looking for?

SPEAKER_04 14:41

I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna just keep this in the context of let's say like international events, because obviously, Josh, the level fluctuates from you know other events to these types of things. But I would I would have to agree with Ryan for the most part there. I think, you know, for specifically on the bouldering side, it is like such a skill-based activity at this point. Like if you look at uh videos or photos of boulders from 2010 and you look at videos of boulders now, like they might not even be like referred to as the same sport. Like you watch an old World Cup footage of like Daniel Woods at the old pyramid wall in Vale, and it's like they're pulling on holds, they're climbing, they're doing hard moves, and now it's like this style has shifted so far that for me it's maybe one boulder in a round or maximum of two, you could look at it and say, like, yeah, that's roughly this hard because it's the power boulder, it's a basic boulder. If you're trying to grade like a run and jump start to a jug that then you swing and lache and take three steps across the slab on volumes and catch another hold, it's like I honestly couldn't even begin to put a climbing level on that. It's for me, it's such a skill-based activity that like if I practice it a little bit, it doesn't feel that bad. And if I go into it without having done any of it, I'm like I feel like a V0 climber, and if I've been practicing it, I feel like it's just an execution thing. But I guess for me, like if people ask me like how strong does a root setter need to be, I would always just tell them as strong as you possibly can, because the stronger you are, the more climbing you're gonna be able to do, the more input you're gonna be able to provide. And for me personally, too, like if I go into an event and I'm not in shape, it's like not that fun. Like going up a lead wall and doing like three moves at a time is just not very fun. You know, like being able to link some sections together, do like boulders in a couple overlapping spots, like it's so much more enjoyable just from you know the days of forerunning and that sort of thing to like be able to do lots of moves.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Mike, do you feel like um like the strength level for the root setters needs to be higher for bouldering um to kind of we help weed out like potential breaks and stuff? Because I know a lot of that coordination style and a lot of that style, like it's it can sometimes be hard to see an opportunity for like a break in a boulder or something that didn't quite go as planned, you know. But the stronger you are, you can kind of weed out those those opportunities. Do you feel like that's the case?

SPEAKER_04 17:19

I think it's super helpful for sure, because uh I mean the athletes are so much better than us. Like it is beyond comprehension for most people to understand how much better than a very strong climber, like 95% of these athletes are. Like I could have my best day in the world and I'm still like not even close.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

How often do you guys think you guys in a bouldering round set moves that don't get done by the forerunners?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

A lot, I would say. I would venture like 50% maybe. Like the moves don't get done at all? A lot of the times, yeah. You build a gauge. That's impressive, actually. But that's where like it's really important to have like a high enough level that you can get close enough to knowing, like, ah, I could do this. But you have to keep in mind too, like, you've been doing manual labor all day. You've been out in the sun in suboptimal conditions, you're fourth day on, you're doing quarto, like you you're just not in this completely fresh environment, and you're not under the competition stress. So you're always going like 80, 90 percent of what you could go. And so a lot of times you'll like try and move and be like, yeah, if I really wanted it, I could do that. It's probably a good level for them.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

That's hard though. I mean, that's that's hard to like to if if it's 50% of the the moves or 50% of the you know, the kind of sections of climbs that aren't a hundred percent like sorted, that's like that make that opens the door for like a lot of variability, I feel like, which is it's more than I thought, actually. So that that's kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Yeah, I mean, I would say as much as. I don't think it's more than 50%, but I I would say it's for sure more than 15 or 20%. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Yeah, no, it I guess it uh it's interesting to me because when we've set kind of pro-level comps at the boulder field in the past, I was like, I'm doing everything. Like I'm going to climb everything to know. And even if it beat the shit out of me like throughout the forwarding process, I mean, there were often times too where I would run through the whole round, like you know, the Friday night before the comp just to like see how everything worked, you know. But but uh I'm like, man, maybe I was like going doing too much. Or maybe you're just that strong.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Uh beat myself up.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

You made a offhand comment about how, especially in bouldering, it looks so different than the 2010 Nationals or something that we would see Daniel Woods just lock off every crimp. And I feel like you guys were kind of part of that new era. Like you guys are the setters who started doing those run and jumps, who started doing those coordination boulders. Can you kind of like take us back to that era and share how that came to be?

SPEAKER_04 20:04

Yeah, I mean, I think Josh, what it came down to in the beginning at least, was and to be honest, I think we're kind of like almost at the end of the circle again, where the athletes were getting so strong at climbing that we were like, well, we have to figure out a way to separate them in a little bit easier fashion, I guess you could say. You know, like the better we do at our jobs, the easier our jobs are. So back then when like coordination, I mean, just think about like volumes. There weren't a ton of volumes on the wall in 2010 through 14-ish. So instantly like putting a volume on a wall and making someone stand on it was like, oh my god, that was this groundbreaking thing that we were like, oh wow, easy separation. It's like a V5 slab now and it's getting separation. And then we went from that into running and you know, across holds, paddling, redirecting, all this stuff that it really just created like we'll refer to it as like risk. Some brute setters like to say that. It's like more like low percentage movement. It's like you have to be really accurate, you have to be in the right position, the timing is really important. And it just makes it harder to do that movement quickly, you know, and in a competition you've got five minutes or four minutes, depending on what round it is. So pushing that level of like can you execute this movement in this small amount of time really gave us uh upper hand for a while. And then what started to happen more recently is all these athletes, which they're all still unbelievably strong, but there's been this such a huge focus on the coordination aspect of uh especially pertaining to bouldering, where you see these three five stage coordination moves with like paddles and jumps around corners. They're so good at that now that you You'll start to see, and there was I don't remember which World Cup it was, but it was I think the Prague World Cup. There was like a very basic boulder, just crimps, volumes, and I mean obviously it was incredibly hard, but that was one of the boulders that didn't get that did not get a top. So I think we're gonna see a little bit of this like start to come back around. But maybe what we'll end up with in the end here would be like just a nice a nicer balance. You know, we went really far into the you know what people call parkour for three to five years, and now it's starting to balance itself out a little bit more. Which, I mean, to me, I think is a really nice spot to be because it allows us to like push the levels on some of the boulders and drop them on some of the boulders to kind of challenge the athletes through each round instead of just are you really good at crimping, are you really good at, you know, running and cordo and that sort of thing? We'll just see kind of a cycle, you know, where the style shifts a little bit, but we kind of retain these core elements as much as possible.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

And is that kind of like a like a conversation that the crew has before each event of like where are things are at in terms of like the field and how climbers are doing on certain types of problems? Like I would assume like before they they had that prog World Cup where you said there was like a straightforward crimp boulder. I'm sure that was intentional to just be like, hey, let's just check back in and see how they do on like something that is generally a little bit more basic and like just strength focused rather than something else. Is that intentional choices you feel like that those crews

How Ryan And Mike Set For WC Events

SPEAKER_00 23:33

make?

SPEAKER_02 23:33

How about we use that to kind of set the the basics and foundations of how an event comes to be? Because I feel like that must be part of how it comes along. So, Ryan, it sounds like you're flying out on Friday to a world climbing or world cup series event? I don't know. Um can you kind of yeah, one of those was right. Can you help us just kind of understand what happens when you get off the plane? What's the lead up to these events that we only get to see a couple of hours live stream? But I know that there's what, like five or seven days going into it? What did those initial meetings look like? How does that come out in the actual product? And how is it tweaked along the way?

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Yeah, so it begins, the actual work begins about a week before the competition uh finals would be. So you'd think maybe five days of setting and two days of competition. And you can back up a little bit further from there. And you know, there's a WhatsApp group and all the setters are kind of messaging one another, but it's usually just about like logistics and that kind of thing. We wait until we're all kind of in the same place before we start talking about what's going to happen for the event. That's guided by the head route setter. So every event has one head route setter who's appointed by World Climbing, and they're responsible for all of the route setting, and everyone else there is tasked with supporting and guiding what needs to happen on the wall. So we would arrive and say, All right, here's the wall, here's the resources. We start hearing from the event organizer. Hey, these are the things that we want to see in terms of holds used or brands used. This is what happened last year, how we want to be different from last year. And then we as a setting team sit down and listen to the headsetter's vision for the event and provide feedback or pose suggestions. And then a plan comes together of these holds go here, this round looks like this or like that. And then we start by setting finals first because it's the last round. So we'll set finals. Sometimes you can do semifinals first, but more often than not, it's finals first because you have the best resources available because everything is still available. So we'll put finals on the wall, then we'll forerun. So for instance, I'm flying to Coper on Friday, which means I land on Saturday and I get in on Saturday night. The rest of the team is a European-based team, and they will start work on Saturday before I get there. So they'll put some basic what we would call skeleton on the wall, and I'll get off the plane, then off the bus, and get there and climb on like probably 14C. Uh fortunately, jet lag is not so bad going to Eastern Europe from Colorado in the evening. And from there, we get the finals route to where we want it to be, which is usually 80 to 95%. And we take it off the wall. We take photos, we mark the wall where all the holds go, we label everything, and then it goes into a bin in the back. Then we do the same thing again for semifinals, and then we do that, take it down. Then we do the same thing for qualities, and we put up quality routes or the quality boulders, and those stay on the wall. Then the competition begins. So that's like all of the back-end setting process leading up to the start of the comp.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Let's dive in more to that initial meeting and Carlo's kind of question around it. Must have been planned that there was a kind of power boulder that hadn't been checked in. And maybe, Mike, you can pick up on this one because to expand on Carlo's question, I'm always curious if you guys are looking at the field, like who's going to be there and say, hey, this climber has been looking very strong, but haven't seen them crimp hard lately? Or is it just, hey, we haven't seen this tested from our athletes, uh, so we want to build this in. Or sorry, to add another thing, is there like a discussion where we have four boulders we want to test, you know, power on this one, coordination on this one, etc.?

SPEAKER_04 27:35

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of conversation that goes into all of those things, Josh. So with like at least the athletes, what's generally talked about is like who is coming at the top of the field. Like there would be some conversation about the bottom very bottom of the field at some point, and that's usually during the qualification setting, because then we're talking about you know, athletes that are unlikely to make semifinals and such. But for let's say finals round and semi-round, we try not to like dive too deep into like, is this athlete coming? You know, because then you're you get these like blinders on and you'll end up you know setting something that's just so focused on one or two people that you kind of lose sight of the overall competition. So what we'll talk about is like what where's the top? You know, and if like two or three of the top athletes aren't there, then the then the level drops slightly and we try to adjust those types of things. And I guess for me it's it's a little easier like having set you know a number of these events before, so like understanding what that top level is. But going into it, yeah, I mean you're still no matter who is there, you're still setting like incredibly hard boulders and roots, and like in Ryan's case, you know, he's gonna get off an airplane, do like probably a pretty shitty warm-up, and then start climbing on a 14 C route like three hours after he wakes up. You know, and so just having I think that experience of like what is that level is super helpful because you're not just always guessing. I mean, root setting inherently is guessing a lot of the time, because we don't know what's gonna happen until the comp's over, just like everybody else. But we're making these like educated guesses on the level and the style and how to balance the rounds for sure, is like you know, you don't want to just have four chordal boulders on the wall, because then you're just gonna know who's the best at that. And they're actually now like with the climbing in the Olympics, purely for the Olympics, there has been a guideline of we want to have a power boulder, a coordination boulder, a technical balancey boulder. And so they're like trying to build this framework to allow us as the root setters to, I think, not have to think quite as much about what we're doing with the style, but then just focus on the movement and the quality of the climbing and that sort of thing. And sometimes like for bouldering, especially, you'll you'll get there and there'll be one setter who's like, Oh my god, I have to set this move, I've been setting this move. It's the sick move, I have a new move that I really want to try to make work. I think for lead it's a little less like that because you have so many more moves. Like usually in finals, we'll try to build this section that's like, wow, look at that, that was sick. But if you boil that down into a boulder, it's like pretty pretty basic still, the the climbing that's on the lead wall, just because there's so much more to do.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Carlo, you you want to dive deeper into that pre-meeting? Uh I mean, it's cool to hear, I mean, a little bit. Uh it's all very semi-familiar to me, you know, kind of that back end of that side of it. I think I'd I'd rather dig a little bit more into like specifically with bouldering, how much of the pre-discussion is based around like separating the field versus like a show element to it? Because sometimes I feel like those can be in conflict. Like, like getting the best show doesn't necessarily give you the best separation of the athletes, but like is that typically your guys' primary goal is to like create a lot of separation throughout the rounds, or is it more to like do interesting things and test people in like different ways, or is it kind of just a balance of the of the two?

SPEAKER_01 31:20

I think it's a it's definitely a balance of the two. And in the pre-meetings, when we start laying out what styles and what holds are going in each of the wall profiles for a finals round, the idea is that we want it to be a compelling show. That we want people to be excited by what they're watching, but we also know that the result is the most exciting thing when you see the drama unfold where this person can win if they flash this boulder and you know they do it, and it's like, okay, now this person has to flash the boulder so that they can win. Those are way more compelling stories to watch than like some new move. But it's both of those things in balance. And so when we start, it's more like the show and the big picture vision of what's happening on the wall. But then once the boulders go up and we start actually climbing on things and looking at the round as a whole, that's where the conversation comes way more focused on separation and on like how hard is this skill and what we're testing compared to that skill on this other boulder over there? And what do we think the top athlete's gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 32:28

When you think back to the most exciting moments, I love that you pointed out it's the result that's the most exciting thing. I think that speaks to what competition really is. It's you know, people against people and those stories and those moments. Um, what is an ideal result, in your opinion, Ryan? Like the those moments that you look back on where the setting seemed to just help facilitate a perfect competition. What did that look like as far as segregation of the field or those final moments?

SPEAKER_01 32:57

So I'll give you a straight answer to this, but I also want to couch it next to a general concept here. And the general concept is that a lot of times, like a good result doesn't necessarily uh mean a compelling and exciting competition, and vice versa. Sometimes you can have a bouldering final that has uh the winner has two tops and four zones, but based on how everything unfolded, it was really exciting. So with that in mind, the goal for a bouldering final would be yeah, the first place person gets four tops, four zones. The second place person gets three tops, four zones. The third place person gets three tops, three zones, and you basically just take one away so that you have really clear and obvious separation from first all the way down to what was sixth, but is now eighth in a bouldering final. But that doesn't mean that that's a recipe for a compelling comp because a lot of times there's something really exciting to watch when maybe the round is hard, but people are making progress and there's a lot of flipping and shifting of where they are on the rank order.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

I've always thought of like the compelling aspect of competition is watching people fail, or people failing but progressing closer to succeeding. Um, and then somebody failing and then progressing and then finally doing is like one of the best, you know. And it and honestly, that's how even in a commercial standpoint, that's how I tend to set is that don't give them everything up front, let them earn it, but you have to give them enough hope and and ability to get to that point and know that they can get to that point to kind of to kind of lead them there in a in a way. So I just wanted to at least frame what what I I feel like compelling climbing is. And usually, you know, if if someone is way stronger than everybody and just flashes it and then everyone else fails, that is compelling to some degree because you're like, wow, they're way better than everybody else. But seeing somebody progress on a problem over the course of four minutes usually is is my favorite thing to watch. You know, seeing them learn and figure things out in real time is is is cool to see.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Another one that I know we've all seen before is you might see somebody in a final get, let's say, one top in four zones, but they fell matching the finish on the other three boulders, and maybe they took fourth place or third place or something like that. It's exciting to watch that. It's a real, like it sucks for that person that didn't make those tops, but it is really exciting to watch somebody get that far along. And even though the score isn't quite like what you feel like it should be, it's definitely a compelling thing to watch.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Oh gosh, you gotta lead in to uh little lead-in. Yeah.

Debating The Scoring System

SPEAKER_02 35:41

So so Mike, when you sent me that kind message about what we were talking about on good temps, one of the things that we had brought up was a discussion around scoring. This is specifically in bouldering. And in bouldering, gosh, I feel like I'm not qualified to list this out, but we'll just say there's zones, which are partway up the wall, and then there's tops, which are you matching the finish. And there's four boulders, summation of those points, less falls. Uh and as I understand right now, zones have 10 points and tops have 25 points. And so we went kind of deep about the implications of that and how we thought that reflected the goals of our sport in general. And that was kind of like a big kind of sticking point for maybe the rest of the world uh got a little upset at some of our our takes. And Carl, you I feel like you need to add something in there before we get it.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Well, and I want to emphasize too, I think this scoring system that's currently in place is new as of this year, right? Like it's been adjusted. I I think it's been slowly trending towards this, but I feel like this is this is the first year with like this, you know, the points basically assigned to it. Not talking about the Olympics, because the Olympics was a bit different in how they did the the the numbers assigned to certain things. Even with lead, they did it differently. Um, but is that true? Is that or am I wrong on that?

SPEAKER_04 37:03

To be a hundred percent honest, I would have to check because I haven't set a bouldering World Cup since 2024.

unknown 37:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 37:09

When we were still putting a zone in the top. I think they started using the 10 and 25 last season.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Okay. I think that's right.

SPEAKER_04 37:16

Like you could you could just pull up some results and it would have either like, you know, the four T Z, whatever, or the numerical score. Um but yeah, I mean it's it's definitely new. Yeah. In the last like year or two.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

The point that we have were making, and me and Will particularly made in Good Temps essentially was that we felt like it was a disservice to the greater objective of climbing to give people too many points for getting midway through a climb, essentially. And that we felt like tops should always matter the most throughout a round of competition. And I I love this topic because I think you can argue a lot of different variations of this. Like I have my perspective on it, like I have and I feel pretty strongly about it, but I'm also open to hearing like why it got shifted and and what might have allowed the competitions to be more successful at by by those types of adjustments. So I'm I'm curious to know more. Because I do you guys feel differently? Do you guys I mean in in the whole perspective of things, like do you feel like tops should still be the most important thing in a bouldering round?

SPEAKER_04 38:30

It depends on it depends on if the results would be better or not for the competition that I was setting. No. Um I mean, I guess a little bit of the backstory too, Carlo. I was very loosely involved when they started putting this system together. Because I was still working at USA Climbing at the time as like the root setting director. And so they brought me into a f a couple of the conversations, and there was a point in time where the zone was going to be worth five points, like in one of the frameworks, because of the reason that you could still attain all five zones and not beat someone with one top. And for me, like I kind of have a pretty good argument for both. And I don't honestly know at this point like which one I think is better. Mostly because the difference between, you know, let's say rock climbing, the point is getting to the top. You know, you're never gonna say, like, oh, I almost did this boulder, I've you know, got past the the 10 point zone and I fell matching the fit, you know, no one cares. It's like, did you get on top of the boulder or not? And I think you said something like that in the which to me, yeah, climbing outside 100%. But when we turn climbing into a sport and we start scoring individual holds and things like that, it just adds this layer of complexity to how we want to judge the athlete on are they incredibly good at this one thing or do we want to reward the more well-rounded climber? And those are, you know, fundamentally the two arguments. You know, do we want to just is tops the most important, or do we want to say like someone who gets all four zones in one try and falls matching every finish hold, are they a more well-rounded climber and therefore like a better athlete in climbing than someone who's incredibly good at something? Which is I would say it's pretty rare that that would happen, that someone would do one boulder and not get a zone on something else. You know, that I think is a lot of what happened in those conversations, which was the assumption was that if you were capable of getting all four zones and zero tops, someone is likely to be able to get a top in a zone and kind of like balancing that out a little bit there, which obviously doesn't happen every time. And I I 100% see your point here, and I I don't disagree with your argument.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Yeah, I guess uh you know, I've thought about it a lot since we had that good temps conversation regarding the scoring, and I think that the way that I best uh can like kind of sum it up is that bouldering as a sport we've like distilled down from like climbing on a rope. They're like fragments of like a larger picture, but at least boulders, like the way that I see them is like you approach a small climb that you can climb without a rope and you can start somewhere and usually hopefully finish on top, like where you're done. And that's the completion of the climb. And I find that if we further distill bouldering down into like uh points for doing segments of boulders, at some point, if that keeps going that direction, you're not bouldering anymore. Like you're literally just scoring moves, essentially. And so like the whole sport of bouldering has gotten distilled into what I believe is almost like a separate sport or a separate practice, which is just doing moves. And the reason I bring it up is because when we talked with like Austin about it on Good Tempts, and I've talked to a lot of younger kids about it, they tend to feel more like whoever does more moves should win, regardless of who did as many tops. And that was uh kind of like it was contrary to a lot of the older climbers, people my age, um, that you know, felt a little bit more staunchly on the side of like, I don't care how far you got, if you didn't do the climb, it's meaningless, you know, where that's kind of how I feel is like I've fallen off the top of a lot of boulder problems and not done them, you know? And like I don't I don't consider that a success in any way. Like, yeah, I think it's a it's a part of the journey, but like it's not successful. And and the same way we don't view like, you know, like, oh, I've climbed segments of biography in France, I don't consider that a success until I've like clipped the chains on it, you know, and like actually red-pointed it, you know. And so I I guess I'm trying to like figure out where if we keep going down this road of like assigning more and more point values to smaller segments of a c of a boulder problem, where that could eventually lead in terms of like how we view the sport, how we view bouldering, how the next generation views those types of things.

SPEAKER_04 43:13

Yeah, for sure. And I mean, to kind of even just piggyback on that, I think the way that the scoring is now, I think it has changed the root setting a little bit. Not a lot, but a little. There has been a lot more, you know, two move boulders, I would say, in the last uh seven years than there were in the previous seven years. You know, if if you had gone to a a national in twenty fifteen and put a two move boulder on the wall, it would have people would have just been like, What what are you doing? Like there's no separation there. You can't get any separation with two moves. But now, you know, when when you have a zone in the top, you can get a lot of separation in two moves. 'Cause it would have been a jump to a pinch and then a jump to a pinch and then you'd have been finished. Yeah, exactly. You know, and like I was Reprimanded once at a youth divisional and I had to change this boulder because I was told by USA Climbing, not even the headsetter. I was the head root setter of this youth divisional, and I got a call from somebody at USA Climbing because the regional coordinator had told one of the folks at USA Climbing that there was a two-move boulder in you know the male youth A finals and they were like not psyched. And this was maybe in 2015 or 2016. I was like, but there's nothing in the rules that say I can't. It's like kind of a cool boulder too. But it just didn't really fit with the scoring system at

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SPEAKER_04 44:38

the time.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who helped make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else, and those episodes are ad-free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay, back to the pod. Yeah, can we go in a little bit more into how these this scoring affects the route saying itself? Like it almost looks like maybe Ryan, I know you're about to go set a lead World Cup or World Series. Um, and I guess it's a little different, but like is there a discussion around like, okay, we have this almost like test or or skill that we want to test in this segment and they get rewarded, and then you know, the subsequent because that's how it really looks like in bouldering. And it almost feels that way from the announcing perspective. It's like, oh, they did that cordo. Okay, but now can they lock off this crimp? It almost feels like separate skills are being tested.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

I'd say it's similar in lead, but not as pronounced. In lead, what you find is we'll we'll have sections, but the overall goal is building the pump and ensuring that we don't have too much uh like style skewed towards one climbing type. So we might have a section that has big moves on good holds, and then you might have like an outro section that's going to be just like technical, face climbing style, like really bad feet, body position oriented, finishing with like a jump at the end. So we do think about it in sections, and that's largely to try and like switch up the pacing and ensure that the athletes don't get too much in like a flow state. Because if you've climbed enough routes outside and you know the route or you know the holds, and you get into this mode where you're just like absolutely flowing up the thing, you're almost unbeatable. You can't lose. But if all of a sudden the style changes drastically and you're like, oh, I was on these pinches and feeling really good and flowy and comfortable, and now I have to you do this thunder cling thing into this jump, like it changes your mental um makeup of how you're perceiving yourself.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

You're trying to kick them out of flow states. You're saying you're trying like when they're cruising along, you're you are throwing a wrench into their joy of flow state. That's interesting. Uh, that's a a twist that I knew that there was these different sections, but I never thought of it from the standpoint of trying to interrupt someone cruising along and give them a uh something that comes out of left field and startles them. That's actually really fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Because if if you think about it, like the best athletes are going to be the ones that are able to re-enter that flow state along with have the skill and the physical capability to do the climb. But there's more to it than just grabbing the holds and not getting comped. There's the whole mental side, especially on lead, because when you're on the wall on lead, you're thinking a lot. When you're on the wall on bouldering, not nearly as much. It's like reacting. Whereas on lead, you're planning, you're coordinating, you're like, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm feeling good, I need to rest here. It's it's a different mindset on the lead route than it is in the bouldering wall.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Particularly for like the international competitions, when I used to train a bit for those back in the day, I used to intentionally climb on like really bad like climbing, like try climbs that were poorly put together or making adjustments to things that were on the wall that felt really uncomfortable and like just shitty, because that's what I would encounter a lot of the time on these roots was something that was designed to make you feel uncomfortable, stretched in a in a weird way, grabbing holds in like a weird position, something that just didn't feel good. Um, and and that was like my first experiences with those roots was like, oh my God, these feel awful. Like they're like not that fun sometimes to climb on because of that, you know? And so by training that, you you start to get used to feeling that way, where it doesn't bother you, you know. You're just like, oh yeah, I just gotta kind of like get my way through it.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

Uh I want to go back to the the scoring and the tops and uh especially in bouldering. And I gotta tell this story, Mike, that I remember about you where I saw you at a uh Bishop flop house. Uh, I think Randy was living there at the time, and you told me that you had stuck the crux move on Spectre one time, and that then you fell off on the slab. And Spectre is, of course, one of the most iconic uh v13s. Well, same bishop, but maybe maybe the world, with a really distinct and interesting crux move. And so I feel like it's a really good example. First, I gotta ask you if you ever went back and did it, um, but it you didn't top, man, and no one gave you any points for that zone either.

SPEAKER_04 49:33

No, I got zero zones on that one, dude. Devastating, dude. I broke a little foothold like two moves into the slab and fell. But yeah, I mean, yeah, like you stand up at the lip and you're like, you're chilling. And I don't know, I never I still haven't done it. I mean, I took me, I don't even know, dude, like five or six trips and like a hundred tries to do that move once. And I don't think I've really tried it that much since then. But yeah, yeah, I mean, I I see where you're going with this, and I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Not as bad as Josh's story on the mandala, but you know it's not relive that. Let's still got the sit.

SPEAKER_04 50:11

I can still do the sit. All right. Yeah, I mean, you know, Josh, like the the idea of like getting to the top of a boulder is doing a boulder. You know, I mean, for me, if if we were going back and just rebuilding the scoring completely, it would be something of a hybrid of like points per hold and some sort of multiplier of a bonus based on how hard the moves are. Because way back in the day, Carla, you might have competed at one or two of them. Like the old PCA comps at the front, like way back in like 2005, 2006, they used to grade a lot of they would point a lot of these boulders by like assigning point values to the moves based on how hard they were. Which to me was always like super intriguing because it it allows you to basically build a boulder in any way you want and then assign point values to the moves, you know. Because if you look at some of these modern boulders, there's this like super easy starting move to get the athlete off the ground so that they can start swinging from a jug, which then generates this insanely challenging like three-step run across paddle into a no hands into a corner, which clearly is significantly harder than the first move.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

Mike, do you remember the the old scoring system too that was like um that weighted things based off of how many people had, I think maybe it was Danielson that came up with it, but there was like a one there was a year or two where if more people did a boulder problem, then the problem was worth less. Which was always confusing because you'd end a comp if you were early on and you'd be ranked pretty high. And then if a bunch of other people kept climbing and then did boulders, basically the rankings were just going like this until the whole comp was over, and then you'd kind of see where everything stood, you know.

SPEAKER_04 51:59

Yeah, I mean, I the only thing that I don't like about that, Carlo, is it amplifies root setter error.

unknown 52:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:06

Like if there is anything that's super reachy or impossible, you know, like it what that does is it affects the scoring just based on root setter error, which is I hate I hated that system personally.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

I hated it. I thought it was really confusing. It was really hard for spectators because no one knew what was going on until like the dust had settled. And it was like not fun to cheer for a comp where like the results were changing that dramatically. You're just like, oh, that person's winning. And they're like, oh, now they're in last place. Like what and they they stopped climbing like 30 minutes ago. Like, what's going on?

SPEAKER_04 52:37

I mean, it was a borderline like calculus problem. Like to c to figure out where you were. I think it actually was like an nth root math equation.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

That's honestly one of the reasons why with the TBF Masters, I tried to create three different scoring systems that were as simple as possible and rewarded topps highest out of everything. And and like I've always appreciated that outlook, but there are issues with that type of scoring system too. I think it's it it's it's there's no perfect way to like score a round of bouldering, in my opinion. And so I guess I I've just been trying to understand like more about what the what the long-term goal is with like these adjustments in the World Climbing Series, you know, um scoring. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 53:22

I can tell you with pretty good certainty that that the one change that they did make, which was going from you know, top and zone to points, that's just like that's a scoring output thing that makes it easier for people to understand, you know. If we're looking at like bringing climbing more into the mainstream and you know, like my mom watches World Cups sometimes, she's like almost 80 years old. And when it was tops and zones, she's like, I don't under she's like, Oh, you set this event. I was like, Yeah, you know, here's the link. And she would watch it and have no clue who was winning because she had no idea what a T and a Z were. You know, but she looks at the score and she's like, oh, 92, cool, that person's, you know, doing pretty good. But the actual like way the scoring interacts with the climbing and the root setting and the way that it affects the the overall result. Yeah, I don't think we're quite there yet with you know, uh, let's say the most perfect scoring system, because I don't think there'll ever be something that's like agreed upon by all parties that this is the best way. You know, somebody's always gonna have some issue with something, I would imagine, unless someone comes up with something that's like completely groundbreaking.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

I mean, I'm guessing you guys are route setters, you guys don't get to always decide all the score. You have to work within the constraints that you're given that you know you show up and this is the way you know the the field is. And so you have to you know set within that. And I'm curious, uh, Ryan, too, to hear you expand on also just what role the route setters play in who wins or doesn't win. Because I think a lot of spectators, or even just people who start to climb and understand that certain routes are easier, harder for them in their style, maybe think that route setters kind of dictate who wins or doesn't win. And I I think that may be you know fallacy or something that you guys would want to say more on.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

Fallacy for sure. I think the the number one thing that we are continuously tasked with and uphold at a really high level is like competitive integrity. So we don't ever want to go out there and say, if we set these moves, this person will win. Um, first of all, even if we did, we don't know if that's actually what's going to happen. So, from the perspective of the setter, we're trying to create a route or a series of boulders that get a good result and test the athletes in a varied way. And so, usually, I mean, there's a bunch of different sayings that go around like with setting teams when the competition starts, but one of them is like something will happen. At the end of this round, something will happen. We have no idea what it is, but something will happen. And unfortunately, we don't get to have a crystal ball that tells us, oh, this is what's going to happen. A lot of times at events, we'll like take a guess right before the round starts, like, all right, how many tops? And it's like, I think three tops on this folder, I think two on that one. Sometimes we're close, a lot of times we're totally off, and something completely different happens. The easiest boulder is actually the hardest one, and the hardest folder is actually the easiest one. But in bouldering, especially, that's where it's nice because you have four different boulders, uh, or five depending on the round. So you have the uh wiggle room to make a couple of minor mistakes here and there in terms of judging the level. Uh with a lead route, it's kind of much more difficult. You make one mistake and one move is too hard, and seven athletes all fall on that same move, that's an awful outcome. Same thing. You make one mistake and a route's too easy, and seven people top it, awful outcome.

SPEAKER_02 56:51

I'm amazed you guys don't have that happen more often. Just want to say you don't even have to come out on that. I'm amazed how how consistent it is where maybe one person tops the finals route. Like, or you know, it's it's it's amazing. Uh I'm curious how much interaction you guys have with the athletes afterwards, and also kind of along that same line, how's it feel when you hear Yanya say something like, I want hard routes? Like, how's that hit? And you know, when you have this outlier, be it someone like I Mori, I remember she was she's on the shorter side, you know, struggled in the Olympics famously on a boulder. You have these outliers like, you know, do you ignore that? You know, do you talk to Yanya afterwards and say, like, Yanya I'll tell you that was hard? You know, like you're just you know really that good.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

She climbed a route one time, I think it was like a semifinal route, and she topped it. And I am pretty sure she said it was 8A plus, uh 13C. And we we just laughed. We're like, it's not even close to 13C. Like it's at least 14b, easy 14b, right? Like, I think what what they all understand now is there's an entire field that we're setting for. And so if somebody like Yanya or Serato or Toby like tops the route and they think it's easy, but nobody else does, that's okay. That's not the end of the world for the actual output of the competition. But in the case of you know, that individual's personal experience, they want to be tested to the ultimate limit of their capability. And when you have a good amount of um distance between the best athletes and the next best athletes, those best athletes don't feel like they're getting tested enough. And in the case of lead, especially with uh you know Yanya is as the key example, we have to either accept, hey, we're gonna make this really hard, and Yanya might not do it. But that also means that the rest of the field might not get halfway. So which one is better versus worse? And those are decisions that we have to make in the moment that dictate how the competition actually feels and looks to everybody else.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

And I think this goes back to some of the scoring stuff that I pulled you away from earlier, Carlo, where it's like, I mean, this is a question for Mike or Ryan or or Carla, just what do you guys think competition should really test? Like, do you think that it is the best climber or it's the best climber on the type of routes you set on that day? Because we were talking about Yanya, and Yanya just went and did bibliography, and she on-sided uh uh uh 9A or 8C, whatever, uh a very hard route. So we're seeing that those skills do transfer over. But you know, do you guys in your heart of hearts feel like climbing competitions should showcase who the best climber is, quote unquote, whatever that means to you, or are they more of a show? Just like what do you guys want it to be, not you know, not necessarily what you think it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Josh, I wanted to add a little bit more to that and and kind of back to the point I was trying to make earlier is do you guys feel like you know, the World Climbing Series, like it's fine to argue the nuances of like formats and and you know, the point systems and things like that. And everyone's always gonna have a different perspective about what's best on that end. But I think that the thing that I would like to see is that we can all get on the same page about what the overall goal is for each of you know, for the events. Like like what are we trying to achieve in terms of the experience for the athletes and the experience for the for the spectators, you know, at the end of the day. But who's the we have? But who's the I think this is why it's really important to ask who the we is because as an athlete, I think an athlete's gonna have a different answer than a route setter, than a uh yeah, and that's my point is that like we we need to understand what the goal is for the athlete's experience and for the spectator's experience overall, you know, and and and uh do you guys feel like you know the World Climbing Series or uh you know USA climbing or any of these organizations have a really clear idea of what they're looking for in that in that regard? Like when they come up with the scoring rules, are they trying to achieve a certain goal with the adjustments to the scoring? Or in each individual event, the the guidelines they give you are those leading to some some like overarching goal that they're they're looking for? Easy question. What's the meaning of climbing?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:32

I you know, Carlo, I I really don't know the answer to that question. Um I mean with simple changes to the scoring, yeah, there's answers to that, like with the you know the points thing and all that. But I think at least at a at a high level in world climbing and has started to happen more with USA climbing. Like I can't really speak to any other federations because I don't have any involvement with them. Just in the last, and Ryan, you might have like a different timeline here. Um just in the last like five to six years, has there been a lot of interaction between the root setters and the athletes and the especially root setters, athletes, and coaches? Maybe a little bit longer here and there, but for a long time, like there was so little interaction between root setters and athletes and coaches, in the sense of like, what do you need as athletes to challenge you more? How can we as the root setters help you and challenge you in different ways to help your development and make you better, help you learn what you need to go back and work on to be a better competitor? You know, so I mean that part of it is so new that it might be a number of years before there's even a consensus on like where do we want to go with the level and the scoring and the the overall goal, you know. And I mean, from personal experience, like I don't think there's quite a firm goal from USA climbing on like what do we want these competitions to do. Right now it's like the competitions select our national team. But how we go about that exactly, last year was the very first year that there was really any directive given to us head root setters as like this is where we want to see the level as close to this as possible. Um that way we're testing the athletes at the highest possible level that we can. And that was the first season that I have ever gotten really any of that. Most of the time it's just what is the head root setter's vision? You know, and like that obviously can differ from a British headsetter to a Czech to a French to a US, you know. I mean, that might be a drastically different event.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:51

I asked the question mainly because I feel like the scoring changes and and the way that we've approached events over the years and and the rules that the federations have kind of set up on a yearly basis and adjusted, a lot of the changes have felt like a bit of a shot in the dark. Not that there isn't some like objective that's trying to be achieved, but that like it's a little bit short-sighted. Like they're trying to fix one thing, and so they make an adjustment to fix that thing, but it's not in accordance with like a bigger set of goals and guidelines that they're trying to adhere to. Like I like trying new things. I think it's great to try out different scoring systems as long as you're all in agreement about what the overall goal of those adjustments are are kind of aiming for. And if you don't have kind of that North Star of like a goal in mind, like you're always just gonna be kind of like, like trying this and trying that. And, you know, like the goalpost changes too much. And that's what it's felt like to me over the years. And I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but I'm just trying to get a little better understanding of like, is there like a set, like, you know, goalposts for like all these adjustments are trying to achieve in the long run? Or is it really just like just kind of trying stuff out and seeing what happens?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

Yeah, I mean, it it Josh, you made a comment a second ago that stuck with me, which is like you were kind of asking the question at the very end. You said, whatever climbing is to you, or some some version of that. And I think that's the hardest part with the goalposts, is it depends on the individual and what their perspective is on what climbing should look like or feel like. And then on top of that, I think it's also not it's not singular in nature because you have a multitude of different folks that are like part of the thing. You have the athletes, you have the setters, you have the officials, you have the broadcasters, you have the spectators, you have your experienced spectators, and your first time I just turned it on, spectators. So you're trying to appease all of those people and grow the sport. And there's like a thousand or more ideas of what it takes to grow the sport and what it takes to get people excited about climbing. And I think all of those different ideas coupled with the multitude of different stakeholders that are like interested in the sport make it feel really disjointed. Because I I don't disagree with you, Carlo. Like a singular goal where you're like, this is what we're trying to accomplish would be great, but I don't necessarily know that the whole thing is that simple. I mean, if we can't even really define like climbing in a nutshell for competitions, it's really hard to set like clear and attainable goals.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:27

It seems like the different federations have kind of aligned themselves with the Olympics because I I think as athletes, we always think that the Olympics are kind of the ultimate when it comes to showcasing uh ability. And so I'd be curious to hear about uh what you guys know, maybe Mike, around that side of things, whether it's like, you know, why there's a business that has to be run from the Olympics and how that influences things. But I'd also I want to hear from you, Carlo. Like you're typically on the athlete side.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

Like, what do you think the goal of a competition is? Well, I mean, you kind of already know a little bit about, I mean, obviously with bouldering, I want tops to still, you know, kind of reign supreme. And that's how I feel about a bouldering round. But I also want the scoring system to be simple. I want it to be easily understandable and digestible from people that maybe aren't really that into climbing. They can, you can pretty quickly give them kind of the elevator pitch of like what the goal is for a competitor in an event, and they can see that play out in that event. I think that those two guidelines, in my opinion, are kind of like how I've always built scoring systems based off of, you know, is like I want a scoring system that's simple and I want a scoring system that values like topping boulders, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:40

But tops reigning supreme doesn't actually get at the deeper reason of what the goal is. Like, is it to find out who the best climber is on that day?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

Like, well, it does because I consider the person that tops the most boulders to be the best climber that day. It's kind of the point, you know. Like I don't think it's whoever did the most moves, you know, in the in the comp or whoever completed the most, you know, sections of something or whatever. Like, I do think that like it it should still be whoever did the most boulders.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:09

The reason why I pick at that is because you created a you know the TBF Masters series where you know, if you say tops matter, well, it could be like, is it one top and we have worked on this problem for two years? Like, you know, we prepared, we trained for it. Um, is it you know a hundred boulders? Is there a time limit? Like, I feel like it kind of gets to you've played around with that in like flashing, power, cordo, like you know, because I guess when I think about my competition life and it was not just in in climbing, I always feel like fundamentally what competition is as an athlete is you against other athletes in that moment. Like it it it has less to do with your ability in the sport in general. It's just like it's you and me right now, you know, like and let's see who comes out on top, which is you know like head to head almost, or just comp in a comparison sense. Just the idea that's always relative to another athlete in that moment. And you know, I I think uh you know it's interesting hearing that perspective from you as an athlete versus someone who's setting the stage to have that competition with on, as well as yeah, I wish we had someone here that was like, look, we hear you guys, uh, but it has to look a certain way and go for a certain amount of time because we have sponsors, we have airtime we need to fill, we have yeah, ticket sales we have to make.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:31

Drawing back to what Ryan was saying, which I think is a great point. Like, yeah, it's varied. What people want out of the sport is varied. Like, there's not some one thing that we're all going to agree upon is like, this is perfect climbing. This is how it should be, this is how it should be scored. And it I think my my point still on it though is like I

How Do Climbing Federations Want Competitions To Look?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:50

want the federations to pick what they want. I want the federations to pick the the best goal that they have for what it could look like, even if I disagree with it. And I want them to like continue to make adjustments in adherence with that goal moving forward, rather than constantly seemingly changing what the objective is of it, you know, like and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, maybe it there is. Like, I I guess I'm just looking from your guys' perspective to know like, do they have like a mission statement of like what a successful competition looks like from you know the spectating competitors perspective, scoring things like that? Or is it still just a little bit feeling like we're not all quite sure what the what the overall like end game is, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:35

Yeah, I mean, speaking from the our Federation side, at least, there's so much going on all the time that I don't think anyone's really had a chance to sit down and have have the time to think about that topic, Carlo. To have enough time to say, like, this is what we want. I mean really broadly, I think their goal is to win medals at world climbing events because that brings more quota, we get more athletes that are uh able to go to these events, we get more money from our Olympic and Paralympic committee to fund those athletes. So I mean the goal is yeah, more medals and winning medals at the Olympics.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:19

That is a goal. Like setting up a federation, setting up competitions that serve the athletes in a way that allows them to be successful in world events, like that can be like one of those boxes to check. Like when you go through an event, you can look at that and be like, do we feel like this event is set up in a way that is going to serve them, you know, for their I mean, I like I think that's that is an important component for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:45

Yeah. And th those conversations are happening. Like those that that vision is already like being put onto headsetters of events. And in terms of like scoring and results and all that kind of stuff, you think about like what makes it for a good competition. And you could add in like, well, for sure, we want to make sure there are no accidents. Like safety is of the utmost priority 100% of the time. That exists alongside optimal like scoring results and all those types of things for world climbing in terms of this is about what we would expect for a lead final route. This is about what we would expect for a bouldering finals round. So those numbers and that kind of end state result, they already exist as a I wouldn't call it quite a North Star. I'd call it more guardrails that you're trying to operate within. But what it doesn't do is it doesn't dictate as often the nuance that gives the competition the identity and the flavor. So the the shift has been for bouldering towards like we need to have these three styles and this one joker or wildcard style all represented so that we can ensure there's there's a fair playing field and it's not too skewed towards this person or this climbing style. But overall, like there's still so much room within that as to what the competition actually looks and feels like.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:06

Is that Joker? Is that the electric category? Is that what it's called? Something like that. Um the sorry, I wasn't trying to make a joke. Isn't it like, isn't there an electric category in the different bouldering? So because I remember I talked to Garrett Gregor after he set at the Paris Olympics. Um he talked about some of the different categories that there were for the boulders, and it always struck me as being a little bit strange where you but but maybe it's along the same vein where it's almost like this is what climbing can be broken down to. Like these are the categories that must be tested. And I feel like that's a really tricky thing to do. Yeah, how do you decide what are the skills that need to be tested as a climber? And that sounded restrictive to me, although Ryan, you said it is so broad, perhaps um it's not restrictive.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:54

I do think it is restrictive. Uh I don't want to make it sound like it's not, because when you start saying you have to have one technical climb, you have to have one power climb, I think most people would say, yeah, you should have those things anyways, but any type of guidance like that is going to be inherently more restrictive than no guidance at all. But it's focused on the idea of creating good variety for the round of boulders. But Mike, I'm sure you have thoughts on this one too.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:22

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I I personally, I guess, kind of like the idea of having a guideline like that. I mean, mostly because in in my experience of like setting the bouldering world cups, that kind of inherently would happen anyways. Like the first morning you show up, you're talking about setting finals, Ted Root Setter cuts a cardboard box open and draws some lines on it with a Sharpie. That's generally the level of like pre-planning. Because for bouldering, it's so easy, you know, you're putting six holds on the wall, we can just move things around, it's not a big deal. But there'd be a short conversation like, oh, who has ideas? You know, and maybe like I have an idea for a jump and Ryan's got an idea for a crazy slab or something. You know, and so those things kind of started to happen anyways. And then with the Olympics, I think they just wanted to make sure that there was like this, you know, kind of to Ryan's point, this like varied fair playing field. And so we started talking about all these terms and they ended up using a lot of pretty w descriptive words for some of it, and then we ended up with this one, electric, which thank God is gone now. It's just turned into like the wild card, the flavor of the country, you know, like for the World Series event in Salt Lake, I'm sure it's gonna be like America power, you know, that's what we were known for for years, was like jump moves, jump moves to pinches. Like none of us could stand on slab, but we could all do jump moves to pinches. Um because like if you know, if you if you look at like define balancy and technical versus define electric, at least balancy and technical fits into like some category of climbing. Electric, you're just like, I don't even know what that means.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:09

Yes, a balancy slab can be electric, uh, a dyno can be electric, uh, you know, like it can apply to almost everything in a weird way.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:17

Yeah, so I mean to me I think it's nice having those three and then kind of a wild card because it allows, you know, even just you show up and you have all these holds. And sometimes it's like ri it's really hard to set what you're trying to set with the holds that you have, depending on the quality and the amount and the variety of the materials that you have. You could be trying to set this really crazy slab and you're like, the holds are just all too good. We don't have we literally don't have holds bad enough. Or you're trying to set a paddle and you just don't have a hold that's working. You know, so I mean I think a lot of the bouldering ends up being so contingent on like the profiles of the wall and the holds, and then even just like the setter styles, you know. I mean, if if you don't have anyone on the crew that's incredibly good at coordination, there's a very low likelihood that your coordination boulder is going to be one of the harder boulders in the round.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:13

Can you briefly touch on how you all are given those volumes, holds, or or even wall angles and how far advanced you know them because uh clearly you know those are the tools that you have at your disposal and and are really heavy constraints on what the output's going to be.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:32

For me, like when I went to France, I didn't see any of the holds until the first morning of root setting. Wow. So you walk in and there's a hundred and fifty, two hundred thousand dollars worth of holds and macros and volumes. And you have to set half of the route with Cheetah, and you have to set half of the route with Blue Neo, and those were the assigned brands for the men for the men's final. And we're like, okay, well, now we figure out where stuff goes on the wall. And I'd say for bouldering it's pretty similar. I mean, like people have watched enough USA climbing based World Cups in the past, they know kind of what our wall looks like. Uh a lot of the times you maybe would see like from the headsetter, they would send out like, hey, here's what the wall looks like maybe a week or two in advance. Um I think for lead the what the wall looks like is a little bit more irrelevant because they're all so similar. You know, it's like almost vert steep head wall, you know, for the most part, like other than like Innsbruck events and even just I guess Coper is a little bit different too.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:37

Ryan, you mentioned that idea of kind of kicking a lead climber out of flow and something that I was wondering along the lines of these holds that are available is how do you trick or kick people out of flow if they already know those holds really well? Like I I, you know, I was such a hold nerd when I was setting and climbing a ton indoors that I felt like I just knew all the holds and knew the spot to grab them at. And I'm curious what you know things you have up your sleeve to kind of make the holds do what you want to do and maybe provide surprises for athletes that probably know quite a few of the holds on the market.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:15

Yeah, a lot of brands will release holds at competitions. So oftentimes there'll be holds that maybe they haven't seen before, or they're like new shapes that are slightly derivative of like an existing line. So you have that one, right? Which is maybe they are actually new shapes that the athletes haven't seen before. Other than that, it's a lot of like simple modification of holds. So, you know, maybe you've seen this volume and you've seen this macro and you've seen this jib, but you've never seen all three of them in this exact orientation. And then on top of that, you can start to kind of play with some disguising methodologies where you have maybe a black jib on a black volume, or you have a blocker that you can't quite see when you're below the hold, but it is actually something that you have to interact with when you're trying to grab the hold. So there's a lot of different methods that you can use to try and you know make the climb feel like it's truly an on-site. But at the end of the day, like these athletes have a lot of resources at their disposal from their national federations, and they're grabbing most of these holds. So you have to try and create sequences and things that are more challenging.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:25

Do you ever do the opposite, or instead of trying to trick us maybe the wrong word, just provide them with a fair on-site puzzle? Do you ever think about trying to lead them down the trail like with tick marks or thumbprints? Like it's like, hey, this you can tell this is a side pole with the right hand because you see where the thumbprint is. Or do you guys do any of that ever where you actually try to leave clues?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:50

Yeah, we talk about that a lot and it's case by case. A lot of times we'll put tick marks on holds because the move is really, really hard if you don't hit the jib just right. And because of that, we don't want to create a bottleneck where 15 climbers all fall in the same move. So we'll opt in and say, hey, let's put a tick here. But let's say it's a jib on a hold that you can grab, but it's really bad and you have to bump to find the jib. Maybe we won't put a tick mark on it that time because that's part of them being able to actually do the move and find the hold. It depends, but yeah, we'll lead them sometimes and then we'll try and make it harder for them other times.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:25

And then with with new moves, particularly in bouldering, like how do you how do you guys dictate whether like the complexity of something new is like too too advanced? Like, is there ever a feeling like maybe this is this is not gonna be discovered, like in a round, you know? Especially in like a finals where it's like this is a brand new move, maybe you've never seen anybody try. And it's pretty rare. Like there aren't that many like totally new moves, but they're they're like every couple of years, I feel like comes something out that's like, you know, enough of a gap between what's been done before that requires like a new way of kind of thinking about how to interact with the wall. Um, and I've always been just like curious about what that looks like on the back end of like, did we push it too far? Is people are people gonna figure this one out? Like, what's what's kind of the thought process on that?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:14

Carlo, do you like to gamble?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:18

I don't actually, I'm not a gambler.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:22

It's honestly, it's a lot like gambling. You you're just you put this thing on the wall, you're like, this is a new move, this is like a maybe it's a combination or like a derivative of a of a move, and yeah, maybe it's really hard, and you think it could be too hard, but you're like, ah, they're really good. I think they can do it, and I think they can figure it out. And then you have to sit there and watch them go through the process. And it's as adrenalizing, if not more, than if you were actually competing yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:51

He's getting the gamblers rush.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:54

Right, Mike? I mean, it's uh it feels a lot more like, all right, let's roll the dice. That's another like setter expression. Like, we're rolling the dice.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:01

Now I know why you guys are still set in these events. You're there for the adrenaline. For that, like sit in the chair and watch and have that adrenaline pumping, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:11

Yeah, unfortunately, Carla, I think most of the time that the adrenaline pump is pumping, it's mostly due to just like that steady cortisol drip that you're having because no one's figured it out, or way too many people are doing the boulder, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:23

No, no, I've I've been there. I've been there on that end. I mean, I've set for you know, for youth divisionals and things like that, and you're, you know, those comps you're still worried about whether or not for me to figure something out. So honestly, more so I feel like sometimes with the kids, because I'm like, I feel really bad for all of them and their parents and like they're the whole day.

unknown 1:23:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:42

Adults, I'm like, you'll you'll be all right.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:45

Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a little easier to like be like, well, yeah, just wasn't your day to like someone who's 24 rather than someone who's 10. Yeah, telling that to a 10-year-old is a little bit harder. I I wouldn't say that to a 10-year-old, no. That's harsh.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:57

On on that line of new moves that you guys uh set and and rolled the dice on. You guys have been doing this for a long time. Yeah. What'd you say, Mike? Did you say you started in 2001? So is that 25 years you've been saying routes? Sorry, that that's yeah, a a c a compliment.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:16

It's okay. I have another question that kind of piggybacks on this. You know, climbing as it grows becomes a bigger and bigger business, hopefully. That's like the goal. And in business, as things get bigger and more money is in there, risk is looked down on. Like they don't want to put on like a million-dollar event where there's a ton of risk at play. And from this conversation, and and honestly, from my understanding of how things work overall, one of the riskiest components of setting an event like this is the root setting side of stuff. Like there's a lot of like not knowing what's going to happen. Do you guys feel like as things grow, hopefully, and get bigger in the future, that the root setting environment will be a little bit more prescriptive rather than like free, free reign creative, you know, and like kind of open to what the headsetter wants? Or do you guys feel like the way that it's set up right now is gonna be able to continue even in a more you know risk-averse environment? Good one. I like that one, Carlo.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:22

You want to take a shot at that first, Mike, or you want me to go? Sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:26

Uh Carlo, I would say that there's always going to be a balance. I mean, I think if we get too prescriptive, we just shift to like TB2 comp. Because that's very low risk. There's no roots, you know, there's no root setting involved at all. There's very little opportunity for human error. Have you seen the numbers on board lords? They're they're doing pretty good. Yeah, I mean I watched that.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:55

I watched it. I thought it was great. Daniel Woods, dude, still killing me.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:59

Uh sorry, sorry to interrupt you then.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:00

You know, but I think the I think the thing that would become the problem there is it would just it would just end up being the same thing every time. And I think that's why the root setting is so important, but it also as the sport does grow, and I mean, if you think about think about it from like this micro scale, as you go from event level to event level, there is more input from the event organizers and the technical officials and all those people that are not the root setters on the root setting. Like from all sorts of different factors. Like I personally was involved in a bouldering world cup where the jury president, who is basically the head judge and kind of the technical official, the safety person, they you know, control all these things. They were looking at all the finals boulders and they canceled one and had us reset a boulder like fifty minutes before finals started because we'd set this thing that was like a handstand, and you they were worried that people were gonna slip and they were gonna like hit their head on this volume, and so there's definitely things like that that happen, but I think there's room for more of that. But at the same time, like I think the the creativity and the difference from event to event is also like what makes climbing really cool. Not that like something like the hundred meter or football or basketball isn't interesting, but the fact that like there's human beings out there that have to like do all of these things and then the athletes get to climb on them, I think it's pretty amazing. You know, there's not a lot of sports out there like that where there's like these people behind the scenes like going down the half pipe and you know, hucking 1270s or whatever just to see if the angle of the snow is right.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:49

Yeah, it's the reason I point it out because it is very rare. I think the only other sport I can think of that is as close to that is like surfing, but that's obviously like a natural force that you're kind of like trying to. plan around essentially. You don't quite know what the conditions are going to line up, but at least that one, it's like that's not really in your control. It's more about just kind of like lining it up as close to you know the natural elements as possible.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:12

But I'd love to hear Ryan's take on that question. But also Ryan, you you know work with movement, which is I think the biggest chain in the world. And so I yeah I kind of wonder on the commercial side too. You know, does the setting change when you are appealing to a broader set? You know, that there's different concerns from that approach too, I would think.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:34

Yeah, I mean to Carlos's question at first, I was going to say basically what Mike closed with, which is this is one of the things that makes our sport unique and it's two sides of the same coin. If we want it to be this very distinct like changing playing field, you don't quite know what you're going to get and you have this drama and excitement of something new every time, then we have to accept the other side of that coin, which is there's human error associated. There's open probability that there could be some sort of you know negative influence or impact based on biases or whatever. So I personally like that that dynamic that we have I'm willing to trade the good for the bad and I would much prefer it to stay in the same vein of open creativity with some guardrails of course than I would to see it be more standardized. I think that's like taking the sport and what makes it unique and pushing it a little bit more in a direction that I don't find is as fun to watch or as compelling. And then Josh with the the route setting side for like gym climbers I think there's a lot more similarities than you would think but the biggest difference other than the level of the climbing is going to be that in the gym overwhelmingly route setters want people to do things. They want them to get up the wall they want them to progress and they want them to like learn and experience that that dopamine hit of like I did that climb. It took me a week and I came back three days in a row and eventually I did it. Like we want that for people in the competition world we want that but basically for one person. We don't care who it is but only one person that gets to the top everybody else is like yeah we don't want you to also do this climb. So there's fundamentally a pretty big philosophical difference between the two.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:26

Oh my gosh you guys we have to come back and do a whole commercial route setting uh roundtable because I had I just realized I have like 500 questions related to the commercial side things. One

The Future Of Competition Routesetting

SPEAKER_02 1:30:38

thing that Carlo you really wanted to touch on before we before we end it is what you guys see as the future of route setting. And what do you think the future holds?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:56

And I'm talking in the competition sense at least for for this conversation you know for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:01

Oh the future of root setting oh man I mean I let's be honest here you know Ryan's got a nickname for me. I think I'm at the age where I'm not going to see the future of root setting Josh but I mean right now I think one of the biggest things that I see that's a challenge is like the athletes are just getting stronger and stronger and stronger every year. And it's getting harder and harder for us at the root setters to keep up and challenge them. I think we're going to see like in let's say bouldering we're gonna see this cyclical thing where the athletes get really good at a certain style and so the root setters shift a little bit and start pushing more of a different style that they're struggling at. And it just kind of goes around and around you know like the root setters are always chasing the athletes and vice versa. I mean I think like holds volumes all that like as that stuff gets crazier you know I mean the size of fiberglass holds and wood volumes like the bigger those things get that just allows the root setters to do weirder and weirder shit. And I think that like the complexity level of boulders is going to go up because it's just gonna have to to compensate for the strength of the athletes and then like in lead you know the the roots overall like they're just harder. The style's a little different the holds are bigger and all that but lead has retained a lot more of the like climbing aspect that is way closer to the outdoor climbing than bouldering has for sure. And I think that level will just continue to rise but maybe the lead is diverting from outdoor climbing a lot slower than bouldering has and a lot more abruptly. Like bouldering went this like 90 degree corner and 10 years ago. You know lead is still like if I'm a good outdoor lead climber I can still do pretty okay at a comp. If I'm a good outdoor boulder I have no chance.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:00

I just wanted to build on what Mike said because I think this cyclical nature thing is spot on and the only way that we'll see a real evolution and shift in the setting and what the sport looks like that isn't cyclical is to change the format. And I think there's a bunch of different formats we've seen out there before like the you know the La Sportiva Legends only thing or Adidas Rockstars or Sequlock. Like there's a lot of different formats that aren't just four boulders four minutes on site who gets the furthest on all four. I think we can go down the path of you know boulders that are being reused from round to round and we're seeing how people can execute instead of just on site and problem solve. And that's just one idea. But when the format starts to change I think what we can do from a setting perspective shifts dramatically and I don't know if that's you know something that anyone is interested in pursuing but I do think there's a lot of opportunity with the format that can help guide the setting.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:04

Carla what do you think about the the future uh both as just an athlete and listening to that?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:10

Yeah I mean I mean obviously I feel like formats are are a like what Ryan was saying like are a great place to play with like what things can look like for the future because yeah there is no defined, you know, like this is how we test people, especially on a bouldering in the bouldering sense. And I've I've seen a lot more people playing with formats especially in like more local competitions which is like really fun to see. But then yeah from like a you know like a root setting standpoint um I I do think like a little bit of uh coming around on that circle of like adding in a little bit more pure power. I'm not sure that pure power in certain ways has increased as much as people think it has. And I know that that's probably going to get pulled and I'm probably gonna get dragged through the streets over it. But it's a good culprit there. And and that's coming from like certain problems that we tried outdoors and certain things that we did outdoors, you know, um back in the day and seeing them still be test pieces, you know, today in terms of like physical difficulty. Obviously the coordination side has increased a lot. I think on the hold side of things, I think I would like to see a resurgence in uh texture variations. Like I'd like to see a bigger variety of texture because that's something that I love about outdoor climbing that I find is is a skill of being able to hold different types of textures. And I'd like to see more companies play with that, which they do. There's like varieties of different dual techs that are out there. You know, there's I mean obviously eGrips did like bubble wrap and Major and and those types of things but I'd like to see a little bit more creativity moving forward with those things, especially when they're applied to like the macro level I think could be really interesting. And yeah I think on the setting like specifically movement side I don't know if this is necessarily like the future of it but I think there's a lot more that people could gain from simple looking climbs that are incredibly complex with body positioning. I think that that's something that most of the setting world doesn't dig into as much as they should right now. I think there's a lot of room for for exploration in that. The caveat is that in the competition standpoint, that oftentimes isn't fun to watch because you just look at it and you're like, why don't they just go grab this hold? And it's like, well, they're trying to sort something out that may not be or might not be visible to a spectator but is incredibly complex from a body position standpoint. And I think that if we can find ways to show that a little bit more, it'd be great. And and I we've talked about this on the podcast I think how we film and how we showcase these competitions and the storylines and how we talk about them could go a long way. I think there's a lot of context that can get brought to competition that's still not there that will help people gain a better appreciation for the athletes understanding their stories understanding what the struggle is that they're going through in these events. And I've brought this up in in GoodTempts as well. But you know I I'm not going to say that's the future but that's my hope for the future in a lot of different ways.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:23

My two cents on someone who I've competed I've I've been around a while you know maybe I haven't set these routes but as a spectator you see these trends and early on sport climbing was a big deal and there was the the French style three points on Sharma comes around does a lot more dynamic moves and you see everything just kind of ratchet up in that kind of circular way you're talking about Mike where it's like okay we learned these new movements and I think they come back but more difficult. So I think you'll see more coordination with smaller holds um you know you may go around to a more powerful sense and you know when that pendulum swings back like it's not like you're gonna lose coordination you didn't lose technical climbing in a case of the the evolution but it gets combined in more and more difficult ways. And then I would encourage you guys to if Mike if you're too old to set at some point it's interesting hearing about the the hold side and the volume side and doing more of that and you know giving everyone tools uh to you know to create new things and and then the the last thing I wanted to ask you guys about related to this is that Ryan you said something about how the the level just is so high uh of the the the ability uh of these guys and girls um and I kind of wanted some insight just on how many of you all there are where Mike when you reached out and you said hey can bring Ryan on as well and named a couple of other names when I hear the names of who is in route saying now at the highest level I feel like it's the names I've been hearing for decades sometimes. And you know it seems like a a a small group of people uh but am I wrong on that? Is there a lot of interest? Is there people to pass the torch to and and how might that affect what uh the future has to offer?

SPEAKER_01 1:39:19

I wouldn't say it's a small group but it's definitely not a big group um you know in terms of international route setters we'll start there because that's been the topic there's what Mike like 60 something like that certified uh at least at level two there might be more um two three and four and then even within USA climbing you you know this better than I would how many USAC certified setters are there?

SPEAKER_04 1:39:46

Oh and it's in just in USA climbing there's over 2500. I mean from level one to level you know there's all this the level system and all that yeah I mean like really high level yeah uh not a small group but not a big group there's definitely people that the torch is slowly being passed you know but it it's that's not like a fast process. Two or three of the guys that were head root setters for USA climbing that you know they were setting World Cups and all this when I was starting root setting for USA climbing basically some of them are still involved in the organization but they don't root set anymore. You know but my journey was like five to eight years before I was even like capable of understanding all the things about the competition and the goals and all that to where I could step into that role. You know and I I think by the time I was a head root setter I'd set like 10 or 15 nationals.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:45

I think that's what's hard with it too Josh is like it's just it takes a long time because there's so much nuance and so much you know variety in the things that can happen. And it's still young. Like route setting is still a young profession. It's still a young sport competition climbing and just in general climbing gyms. So we haven't quite had this like elongation of like career for so many people to have you know the the 55 plus year old route setter so the mic's getting there.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:16

Um he's wearing a shirt that says masters too I like having the shirt says masters it's really good masters of the universe of the universe bro I had to get in one mic mic jab there.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:28

Yeah Ryan's been calling me he's been calling me boomer mic for like 10 years as long as you keep climbing V13 every year it keeps you young a v13 a year keeps the keeps the doctor away is that yep but yeah I think it just is it's young in terms of the elongation of the career like a lot of people that are still doing it have been doing it for a decade or maybe 15 20 years like Mike or like myself and as much as I like to joke with Mike he's not old I'm not old like I still got plenty of years left of doing this and um that creates a little bit of this compression and the growth trajectory but also it just does take time to go through and learn all the things and the truth of it is we're still learning. We still make mistakes all the time that we're like ah would have done that differently should have put that jib back on like shouldn't have put the blocker there. That move was a little bit harder than I thought it would be like those things happen constantly.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:28

Okay you guys I gotta wrap this up because we went long because I and we could have gone ten times as long just in case I never get to have uh you on again Ryan or or Mike I do want to ask you guys my classic question and we'll start with you Mike and that's how you go

How To Go From Good To Great

SPEAKER_02 1:42:45

from good to great.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:46

I think you just keep showing up the more you keep showing up the more you learn have an open mind be willing to like not just hear but actually listen to someone else's perspective and I think that part is like as a climber and a root setter for sure. And actually like taking the time to understand what that perspective is I think that that would be for me. Keep showing up an open mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:10

I really like what Mike said um and that maybe have a couple things that go together here in addition to what Mike said. The first one is you need to have a positive attitude um I think that is somewhat obvious but it goes underserved or underutilized a lot of the time you can keep showing up but if you don't have a good positive attitude it can not go well for your ability to work with a team or with other people. And then I'm a big believer of getting in a little bit over your head and pushing yourself to learn. So I've raised my hand for many different events when I wasn't quite ready and got thrown into the deep end and had to figure it out and I think that definitely helps.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:53

Good ones you guys uh I also wanted to thank Carlo for joining us and having that athlete side of things along with your setting just really appreciated the expertise you brought Carlo because you've been there and competed on the routes these guys set and you know just to go back to what you just said Mike about keeping open mind um you know a little bit half joking inventing some kind of rivalry between you two uh and actually the discussion was just yeah illuminating hearing expert sides and and I got to learn a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:23

No thanks to all you guys thanks for including me as well appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:26

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