Good Temps #14 with Allison Vest — Janja Sends Bibliographie 5.15b, Katie Lamb FA’s V15, and Should Pro Climbers Have To Publicize Their Sends?

The Value Of Mentorship In Climbing

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Jimmy, I think, was just climbing so many new things, so much. There are so many things that he put up that are like really hard that he even forgot to name. Like I was like, What'd you call that thing? And he's like, Oh shit, I don't even know, man. He's like, just call it something, man. I don't care. Like he's like, I just can't think of more names, basically, you know? And I was just like, dude, you gotta like at least call it something. Like, there's V14s that he's put up in Yosemite that he just didn't name. He was just like, oh yeah, I forgot about that one, you know.

SPEAKER_05 0:36

Welcome to the Test Piece podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Good temps, you guys. We got Carlo Traversi, Austin Hoyt, Allison Vest. Yes, that is not Will with long hair. That is our friend of the pod, Alison Vest. Uh, welcome to the crew. How's it going?

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Thanks. Yeah, I'm doing good. Psyched to be here. Honestly, I'm the most bummed about being here because I listen to all of them when I'm driving. So if I'm on it, I'm not gonna be able to listen to it. I'm not gonna listen to myself talk. That's too painful.

SPEAKER_05 1:42

You don't want to just listen to yourself talk. Where that's what we do here. Uh I thought it was the whole point. Uh well, Alison, maybe we should uh tell everyone how this came to be where you were driving and listening and evidently yelling, or maybe I shouldn't say yelling. Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but uh sounded like you had some uh some beef with some of our ethics takes, maybe even specifically a Mr. Will Anglin.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

I did. I had beef with Will Anglin and I texted you about it, and I did not intend to be here, but uh my beef was mostly that he he just was like saying everything was common sense, like he was like at like super technical climbing things, like the density of brush bristles were like common sense to people. That's not yeah, that's not quite common sense, I guess. I I like I'm the biggest Will Anglin fan ever, so like I'm listening because I want to hear a Will Anglin take. And uh I think it was specifically the last one when he was like or maybe two ago when he was just saying like approaching people at a boulder was like common sense. And I was like, no, I want to hear like Will call some people out for you know bad ethics or like what not to do when you come to a boulder. So I think I texted you because I was like, you gotta tell Will to just answer the question.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Yeah, Allison texted. Will got booted off the pod, and Allison's here now.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

And I actually texted Will yesterday. I texted him yesterday and said that I was gonna make it look like it was a hostile takeover. So that's perfect.

SPEAKER_05 3:12

So, what is the appropriate density of brush bristles for each rock type? Because that that is what Will does, is he actually has he probably did the math on that. He said, Well, and Joe's sandstone is a little bit softer. So, you know, I mean, you gotta have someone that takes it all the way, but you're right. Uh, common sense, not always so common. And uh, I mean, that's why we do the ethics segment. Um, I I think I've said this last time where me and Carlo got approached not that long ago about a newer climber saying, that stuff is valuable to me. Like I didn't know it's not common sense. And so, yeah, we can just lay down the law without Will giving us crap now. We can just tell it how it is.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

I think what I texted you, Josh, too, was like, I I feel like we've set up climbing as a sport to be so reliant on mentorship. And I feel like we're at a point where there's so many new climbers coming into the sport all the time. And so, like, it's hard for there to be one-on-one mentorship situations like there used to be back in the day. And so I think a lot of people rely on podcasts like this for a good reason because that's where they're asking their questions and trying to learn about the sport, because it's not it's not like there's a handbook that you can be like, oh, read this thing and it'll tell you all the minutiae that you need to know. So, yeah, I mean, I I want to hear I want to hear the Will Anglin specificities, you know.

SPEAKER_05 4:28

Carlo, who took you under their wing and kind of showed you ethics and stuff when you were young?

SPEAKER_03 4:33

I mean, people that I grew up climbing with at the gym, like older climbers, and I mean that's uh it's something that I always appreciated about growing up in climbing when I did was that I I was like the really young kid, and I was surrounded by people that were much older than me that had been climbing for a lot longer, and they were really good about telling me what the ethics were. Um, and I was generally like a pretty respectful kid when it came to that types of stuff where I was just willing to listen and participate in like a respectful manner. Um and uh and and yeah, that was helpful for me early on, but but honestly, like it's it's for me, it's been traveling and climbing with a lot of other people that have had a lot of experience in it. And I think it only it just takes time in a variety of different areas and meeting a lot of different people that have been involved in the sport for a long time that allow you to kind of uh you know create a really strong, you know, kind of ethical stance around things. Because I mean, as you guys know, some things are in the gray area, or a lot of things can be in the gray area where they're ethically sound in certain places, but then not in other places. And that can be really difficult to navigate. I think if you can just start off by understanding the ethics of your local areas that you're frequenting, that's like a good start. But then also understanding that as you travel and go to other places that that's going to change to some degree. There's some things that are like kind of rooted in the sport that are, you know, don't change too much between areas, but there's definitely like, you know, I mean, there's the areas in New Zealand on the limestone that, you know, they ask you to like wash the wall when you're done, basically, with water. And I mean, that's obviously not an ethic that we have anywhere else, as far as I know. Um that's just an example. Yeah, we do have rain. But um I mean, I think they have rain too, but I think it's more of like uh this deliberate, like leave it, you know, leave it as you came to it type of approach, um, which which I like.

SPEAKER_05 6:34

Sometimes I worry that there's just like an impossible uh ratio now of us doing mentorship and just like things are just going to change and there's no way around it. Like when I started climbing, I kind of had a similar thing, right? Climb with older people and they taught me how to behave. And it was really important to me to behave in that manner because otherwise they might not invite me the next time. And you needed belayers, you needed, I needed someone to drive me to the crag because I was 11. And you know, it's like it was part of being accepted in the community, where now you kind of maybe this sounds mean, but in some ways you have like the blind leading the blind. They just go out and boulder and they don't need anyone to kind of tell them what's appropriate or not. And like do you I don't know. Also, I almost feel like it's like an impossible tidal wave. Although we're doing good, we're doing God's work right here. We're just gonna do that. You think we just give up, you just give up, Joth. Throw candy wrappers on the ground and like uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Carlo, you maybe gotta you maybe gotta write that handbook. Uh maybe it's maybe that's your next mission.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Yeah, I would love to write an ethics handbook or yeah, something that kind of it'd be cool to do something like that for sure. I think we could have you know a lot of people contribute to something like that. I don't feel like it should just be like one person um putting that together. But yeah, I mean if I had time, maybe in a couple years, you know, it it would make sense. I think for the time being, we're just trying to, you know, keep people, at least in my gyms and you know, my community, like as educated as possible. Or and then also just empowering other people to be those mentors when you're not around, you know, and letting people know that they should step in and say something, you know. Like I know people that are kind of like, they've been around a while, but they don't like think that they're like in a place to be able to tell people what to do. And so they kind of just like don't say anything. And so, you know, some of those people in my community, I'm like, hey, you gotta like occasionally step up though, or else this, this, this whole thing's gonna get a little bit crazy if if you don't say something, you know? So so just you know, be respectful about it, but try to like try to mentor people a little bit at least, you know. And some people are more willing than others to do that, but I think some people just don't see themselves as that person until you tell them that they are, and then they they they then all of a sudden they start to see themselves and like, oh yeah, you're right, I I can do that. Like I am in a position where people will listen to me, you know, and and and and be able to have an effect. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:04

Well, climbing's not super confrontational compared to some other sports. Like I think about surfing and surfing, one of the reasons why I didn't fall in love with surfing, I think, is because it was so aggro. It just felt like if I did something wrong, uh literally might get into a fist fight in the water even though I was just ignorant and just begging to have a mentor to show me, show me the waves, not the ropes. Um, and so I I do think climbing is less of a typical place where people want to stop someone and say, Hey, you're doing this wrong. Even if they do it in a nice way, I feel like we all kind of like going off into nature and doing our own thing. And maybe we're just not generally the type of people that put our hand up and say, Hey, stop that. And so I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah, I think partially too, that's like that partially that's just because it's you know how climbing like you can be so much more isolated when you're climbing, and if you're don't like what somebody's doing, you can sort of just leave and go somewhere else. Whereas like in surfing, if somebody's like doing something wrong, that's gonna hurt other people when they're like trying to drop into a wave and somebody's in the way and isn't aware. Um whereas yeah, I think climbing it's easier to just like put your blinders on because in a lot of ways you can just move and it doesn't impact you directly.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

So what was your experience kind of growing up, Alison, with around ethics and like how did you you know how were you taught the right ways to behave?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Yeah, I I mean I had sort of an interesting like I I grew up comp climbing. I started comp climbing when I was 10. And so I competed exclusively until I was like 25 or something. Um and I was just super locked in on competitive climbing and I didn't really climb outside until I was yeah, twenty-four or twenty-five. Um and so I was already an adult, and so I think it like it was different in the sense that I sort of was aware of not knowing anything. Um and I think I got super lucky when I moved to Salt Lake. Um there was a variety of people who were here who were typed on climbing outside and and yeah, were able to like teach I mean it's so it's such a weird thing to like have been climbing for 15 years already at 25 and have just no idea what I'm doing in a lot of different respects when it comes to climbing outside. But I mean similar in a way to to both of your stories about it. I think for me I was just aware of that. Like I don't know anything and I have to like watch what other people are doing and listen to what other people are doing and be like super cognizant of of the fact that although I feel like I'm a strong climber, I don't really there's a lot I don't really know. Um and I think I mean it's taken until I don't know, I just probably last year or the year before where I really feel like I've sort of got a lot of it down now and I feel confident going climbing by myself and um being able to engage with all the local environments and feel like I I sort of have a leg to stand on and and know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_05 11:54

So any big memories from that transition that you're like, oh, that's uh something I didn't realize that's really important in how to behave outdoors?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah, I mean I I for me a lot of it was like safety. Like I was really s I was really nervous when I first started climbing outside, especially doing tall top outs. And I think part of that was like I had already before I moved to Utah, I'd already climbed V thirteen in Squamish because I'd been climbing for my whole life. But I like hadn't climbed V6 really or seven or eight. Like I sort of skipped a bunch of grades.

SPEAKER_05 12:27

Yeah, that's a bunch of grades.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

And so then all of a sudden when you're like you're topping out a boulder and it's like quote unquote only V six, but I haven't done any V sixes, then it like that to me that was like why it started feeling really scary. It's like I'm not I'm not confident in my abilities in like the lower grade levels that it it I was like getting into situations that felt really risky because I didn't have that base. Um and so it took I'd like had to back down a little bit and like make myself climb some of the easier grades, learn how to do things on a rope, um, and and really like figure it out in sort of a weird backwards way. But I I do think the like safety aspect of being able to do big, tall top-outs when the grade is easy um has a lot of different factors to it that I wasn't necessarily prepared for.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

That's a really good point because I I I've actually found um a lot of people like in Yosemite that hadn't really climbed much outside, but they're pretty strong, get themselves into really shitty situations because they didn't check out what the down climb was or didn't know how to deal with the top out, even though the top out is like really easy. But I've seen many people like I'll be walking by and someone's like done the mantle on Midnight Lightning is like standing on one of the little ledges, but hasn't topped out the boulder. And they'll literally be like looking around, like, what do I do? And then they look at me and they're like, What do I do up here? And I'm like, okay, here's here's what you do. And I'm like, but you know, it's it's really easy, but it's also like there's not a lot of holds, and you're kind of trusting your feet, and it's it's a whole different game. And then they even get on top of the boulder and they're like, How do I get off this thing? And I'm like, yo, these are these are the things you kind of gotta like sort out before you get up there. This isn't the gym, you know. Like, you gotta you gotta figure out. I mean, I've had people on mini boulders like where I pull up and they're just standing there and they're like, What do I do? Like it happens like almost every time I'm there nowadays, where I'm just like, somebody looks terrified, and then I'm just like, Are you okay? Like, do you need help? And they're like, How do I get off this thing?

SPEAKER_05 14:24

Yosemite has some terrifying, easy topo outs. Like, easy climbing is notoriously scary, but I was also taught like go to the top of the boulder before you do it. You just like always go chalk things up, look what you know, clean off some leaves. I did have a exciting experience on Shiver Me Timbers, which is a V6 in Yosemite, and then you top out, it's like a V0, but there's zero holds, it's just literally friction smears. And if you went for that ride, uh uh Alison and maybe Austin, I want to ask you guys when you were brought up climbing in the gym, did you do that thing where when you landed, you kind of like rolled onto your back? Do you know what I mean? Like, no.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

I was definitely I think you're supposed to. I definitely I don't think I I think I was bad at falling. That's like the worst way of climb outdoors.

SPEAKER_05 15:16

Whenever I saw that, I was like, oh dude, you're just gonna like mash your head onto some rock. Like you cannot take that same fall into outside. Allison, did you have that transition?

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yeah, I mean, I I think it it's good and bad in some ways. Like, I think I had learned to fall just in a way that I was like aware of my surroundings and how I was falling and um that kind of thing, especially as like comp climbing evolved to be more dynamic and you're like taking bigger whips off fiberglass holes and stuff. Like you sort of have to have your wits about you um when you're falling. Um and so in some ways that helps climbing outside. Like I frequently like will like hit a pad and bounce and you know run off or flip around or whatever. Do do what I can to like stay on my feet, but um but definitely yeah, the the like rolling or like hitting, like I would swing my arms back like I do when I fall in the gym. So I I've had of like a few experiences where I like smoke my forearm on a rock or something because that's not where the pad is. It's less like the initial impact on the pad and more like where my arms go um after I fall. I I still sometimes get into bad habits with that and end up like hitting my hands on rocks or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 16:23

Okay, we were talking about this for a while because I was also waiting for Austin Hoyt to rejoin us. He was off, I don't know what he was doing. Smoke break, just something. He was chilling. Um Austin, uh real quick, uh I I wanted to hear how you were brought up mentorship-wise and learned the good ethics outside because I mean you spend tons of time outside, so you are probably kind of someone that would now mentor people, but uh, how is that transition for you?

SPEAKER_02 16:52

I feel like for me, it was pretty like I don't want to say like sudden, but it was kind of like a thing that just happened overnight because I was a gym kid and then all of a sudden I was an outdoor kid, it felt like, and I don't know if I really had anyone that like uh fully mentored me outside. I had like my coach Charlie who mentored me overall in climbing, but I think for like to bridge the gap, I just kind of went out and started doing my thing. And I think you meet people along the way and they guide you a certain way. And I don't know, I think every single person I met probably led me on the path to get to where I am today. I can't think of a single person that like guided me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:39

You know what this makes me think then is that anyone who ends up being committed to climbing will find those mentors along the way. I think it's just that ramp up period. There's so many people that are out there climbing and doing that ramp up period, and maybe you know, it just takes longer for someone to come along and you know teach them. So maybe it always will work out. It's just that we have so many people that go out there without knowing that the impact is high. Like I just it's the trash that to me is always like the thing that I can tell people don't spend much time outdoors or they're new. And uh, you know, you just don't realize that you know, like your candy bar wrapper fell off of your backpack and slipped under the rock. Just it's just like that impact is, I think, one of the ones that's most visible to me, and also one of the ones that's easiest to solve. Is I kind of have this thing where it's just like I try to pick up my own trash and I also try to pick up one at least one other piece just because I know that somehow I littered, right? Like you just you somehow do. You don't think you do, but you tore off that piece of tape, you know, and you left in the ground.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

So I I've found climbers to be like pretty good with trash overall. The tape thing is the one that I find to be the worst. Like, I don't know how like pretty much every boulder that gets frequented, I show up and I can find tape in the ground. So if there's anything that we can scream to everybody out there, is that like please just ball up your tape and put it in your bag when you're when you rip it off your hand. Like, don't just leave it scattered everywhere. Because that's the biggest find, in my opinion. Like, you just know climbers have been there because there's just tape scattered everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

So this is what Ben would do to me. Ben Wheeler is the worst person I've ever seen with the tape. He always rips it off and then it ends up on the ground. So that's my Ben dis for the day.

SPEAKER_05 19:26

Good, good. Let him know. Okay. Um Austin, you are in Colorado, you're in your van. Wait, no, you're in your truck. Uh were you just competing or you were climbing outdoors? What are you doing in Colorado, man? I can't believe you left your sacred Northeast spot.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

I know, I'm sad. I don't I can't believe it either. But I drove out here in the truck uh to compete in Vail in the GoPro Mountain games for the National Cup because I was feeling pretty compy recently. And it went pretty okay, so I'm not I'm a little bummed because I didn't do as well as I wanted to in the semifinals, but I did pretty okay overall. And then now I'm out in uh Denver chilling with Adam and Noah. We're gonna climb in chaos a bunch, but yeah, I mean, you can't climb in the northeastern now. It's extremely humid and wet every day, so maybe it's not the worst thing I left.

SPEAKER_05 20:18

That's the pilgrimage, the summer pilgrimage. Are you just are you living in your truck right now?

SPEAKER_02 20:22

I'm not living in the truck, no, I'm just I'm staying with Noah and uh uh Noah's house in uh Denver, and I'm just sleeping on the couch and Adam sleeping on the floor.

SPEAKER_05 20:33

Okay, well, that was my attempt to uh ask Carlo about what it was like to spend time in Colorado. And did you live in your car? Because I remember Austin, you had posted something on Instagram like asking for you know Bibby spots near Rocky Mountain National Park, and I was like, I feel like Carlo might might know a little something about that.

SPEAKER_03 20:53

I've definitely lived in my car in Colorado, yeah. My for uh my first full season in chaos was like 2006 or 2007, and I I lived with my brother in my CRV in in Estes Park for three months. Um and yeah, we were completely broke, and we both slept in the back of a CRV with pads and and like I think we had like you know six or seven dozen eggs and some ramen, and that's literally we just were in chaos every day, and it was great. We loved it. I was, you know, I think I was 18 or 19 and my brother was 16. And yeah, I don't know how our my parents let us just do that for three months, but we did it. And then I uh and then I lived in my car another summer a couple years later, where I was saving to go to Switz my first trip to Switzerland, and I moved out of my apartment. And in order to save money, I just lived in my car all summer uh to kind of save up money for the fall to be able to go on like a big trip. But it was kind of nice because when you don't have anywhere to relax, you end up just being out all the time. You're just like, well, I'm either gonna go to the gym and train or I'm gonna go out climbing. Because I have nowhere else to be, basically. Um, and it kind of creates like a cool scenario where you're just kind of pushed to like just always be doing what you, you know, probably should be doing at that age, which is just climbing a lot and, you know, training a lot. So but I was just like, I mean, even that summer is like when I did, I did jade early in that summer. And like, you know, I would I was just like, well, I did jade and then I'd come home or I'd come back to Boulder, but then be like, I have nowhere to go. And so I would go to the gym and then I would just train for like three hours and then like fall asleep in the parking lot and then just repeat over and over again. And I mean I was definitely in the best shape of my life um, you know, during that those times. But but yeah, hopefully I can help Austin with beta, although he seems like he's got it figured out. Sleeping on couches is definitely the way to go. I slept on more couches than than yeah, than I knew how to count at that point. So but yeah, I I I miss it, man.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Yeah. I literally just watched myself get a ticket for being parked on this side of the road for street cleaning.

SPEAKER_05 23:01

Oh no, dude. That's like that's your food budget for like a whole week.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Oh no. It's okay. Adam and Noah got one last time.

SPEAKER_05 23:08

Uh dude. Wow, glamorous life of the pro climbers. Um, so good. Okay, you guys, uh let's let's talk about some of the the biggest news that has hit this month. And real big news for us, breaking news that happened just before we

Janja Sends Bibliographie 5.15c/9b+

SPEAKER_05 23:25

recorded. Yanya did bibliography uh for uh the second woman to do a 9B plus uh after Brooke Send of Excalibur, first woman to do bibliography, which is this gorgeous line just to the left of biography, I think. I guess to the right, but yeah to the right. I meant um climbers. I don't know. Thanks, thanks, Carlo. Uh I I really uh I thought it was like a cool little Instagram clip that's all we've seen so far. She was definitely emotional. She kind of made some comments about it was her first time really projecting and the struggles she went through. Uh, but just good on her. I mean, what a freaking line. Like I first when I saw it, that sounds terrible. I thought it was biography, and I was like, cool. And I was like, oh, it's bibliography. Oh, good job, Yanya. So uh just wanted to shout her out. And I don't know, is anyone you've been to Seyuz, Carlo? Are have you guys been to Sayus or is Carlo the only one? Not me. All right, set us up, Carlo. Take us there. Tell us what a beautiful wall, what that place is like.

SPEAKER_03 24:29

Yeah, I mean, you know, I talk shit about European limestone quite a bit with like chauustiness or just limestone in general about chauciness, but but but Sayuz is like the the the top, like in terms of quality uh I that I've ever seen. It is absolutely perfect. And I honestly am kicking myself that I haven't spent more time there. I was there in like 2014 or 2015 um with John Cardwell, Maddie Hong, um, you know, a couple other people that we climbed with, you know, throughout the course of the time there. We spent like I spent like two, a little over two months there. And yeah, it's it's incredible. It's like some of the best climbing in the world, and it's really hard. It's a it's a difficult style. I'd say the roots tend to be pretty stiff um compared to like a lot of other European sport climbing that I've done, which is generally I find to be softer than Americ American grades. Not overall, but just like um found it to be a little bit easier. Um but I found SayUs to be like proper stiff, hard climbing. And um it's also like really fickle um with weather and conditions because the different types of limestone, like the blue and the gray, have different friction to it. And it the that types of rock absorbs humidity differently. So like you know, you're on the the gray or white stuff, and it like the texture is like a little bit glassier almost on the grayer stuff, and you want it to be like really dry. Um, but then on the the blue stuff, like it's it's like almost like you wanted to have a little bit more humidity or something to it. And so transitioning between the different rock types like while you're on a certain route changes like the conditions and whatnot. And not to get too nuanced, but I found it, I found it to be kind of more specific than than you would expect. And the holds are like all generally pretty small. It's pocketed, but not like nasty pockets, like they tend to be kind of slopey two-finger, three-finger like scoops rather than like like huge monos or you know, really deep kind of in-cut pockets. Um but yeah, just big, beautiful wall, incredible lines. Um, it's like exactly just what you want out of sport climbing and it's amazing. So and I also thought it was funny from the Yanya post that people were talking about how she didn't use an e-bike. Um it just kind of become like a point of contention there because the hike is pretty rugged, but there's a way, there's a path that you can use an e-bike on, and a lot of stronger climbers. I think even like when you know, like Magos had put up the route, he used an e-bike to get up there during the day. But the hike is like a significant component to the day. It's like enough of an approach where like you feel it. Like I would do the hike and I'd have to take like, you know, 30 minutes to an hour at the base of the cliff to kind of chill, calm down, eat some food, maybe take a quick nap before you like start climbing for the day. So we always joked that the the hardest thing to do at Seyus would be to do the hike and immediately tie in and climb like a like a 13D, like an 8B or something like that. Because like all the blood would be in your legs, and to like actually get on and like climb something immediately, it'd just be like impossible, basically.

SPEAKER_05 27:38

So quick little ethics uh question. Then two things. Is it okay to stash when you have a mega hike and you're going to do it the next day? Like, you know, like so many uh I'll just say I won't name names, but I definitely stashed at these big approach to cliffs and put a rope somewhere, you know.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

Pr pretty much everyone that when I was there, everyone stashed at that cliff, like their rope and some draws and stuff. And so I don't know if that ethic's changed since I've been there. I I don't think it has like massively, but it was definitely like a a stashing ethic for sure. Um but then the e-bike kind of takes a whole nother level to all of the dude.

SPEAKER_05 28:17

I will e-bike for sure. I don't care if you knock a grade off if it's a shorter approach and I can e-bike, I am e-bike. I I I remember someone talking about higher grade.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

You didn't even climb you didn't even climb mandala properly, you know. I gotta declare you didn't even fully stand up on top.

SPEAKER_05 28:34

I made the choice. You can watch the video, you guys can all decide what what you think. Um yeah. Uh what did you think of the the news, Alison? I thought it was I'm a I I think you're probably as big a Yang fan as all of us here.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Yeah, I mean, I I you know I was competing still when she burst onto the World Cup circuit. So I've always just been a fan of hers, and we've always gotten along really well, and so it's always been crazy and cool for me to see her just continue to solidify herself as the greatest of all time doing all these different things. But what I I thought was really cool about her sort of announcement of it was that she took the opportunity to talk about how it was hard for her to project and that that mindset is something that like doesn't come naturally to her, which is always just interesting to read about because like for me, I I I sort of love that part of projecting, like banging your head against the wall, getting into a routine of going to the same boulder and having a process and really trying to like focus on the little mini moments of progress. Um, and yeah, I really it's something I love about climbing in general, but also about projecting. Um but I guess it's not surprising to me given her resume and that she loves competing, that um that that was something that was more difficult for her to learn. Yeah, like for me that was what was I didn't that's what I didn't like about competing because you'd like do a boulder and not be able to do it in five minutes and then never see it again. So like moving on was always something that was like yeah, a challenge for me, whereas it's something that she's so good at. So yeah, I I thought, I mean, obviously a insane, amazing accomplishment, but I really appreciated that she took the time to write out um about the struggles of it and and what it took for her to learn how to project and be a little bit more patient. I thought that was really cool.

SPEAKER_05 30:16

I wonder if for her there's a higher opportunity cost to projecting, right? Because she has not performed as well as typical Yanya at the World Cups, and it's probably because her attention was elsewhere. And so for her to take the gas off of competing, which she has success after success after success, and put it towards something else with no surety of success in a different domain. Like it seems like a high opportunity cost. I wonder if that's something that she struggled with on top. Like that would add another layer to the mental game where you're like, you're like, I just fell and I could have just gone and like won another World Cup, you know?

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Yeah, she I mean, she is just such a I mean, she's an absolute machine, but she's definitely her own harshest critic. And she's always sort of searching for that perfection, that level of perfection. And you can you can see that a lot just in who she is and how she carries herself. And I thought that they had a really good showcase of that. They just did like a it's on Red Bull TV. They did a little mini, like a short film about I don't even remember, and maybe World Champs, I think, was what they filmed. Um, but it was like the most I would say it was like the most poignant insight into her more aggressive side. Um when you can really see how frustrated she gets when she uh comes in second or has a couple falls that she shouldn't have had, or um whatever. I mean, it's hard it's hard to find the things that are the little moments of weakness for Yanya. Um and I think the first two competitions were I mean, she she didn't win, but she barely didn't win. Uh like it was a couple falls that she shouldn't have taken, or falling on the last move of the finals route for lead was also you know, she maybe just should have done the move. Um and so I think more than like opportunity, I think it probably just sort of fueled a more like rage-filled trip to say you're to like try to do this route to get a little bit of like she just that sort of is who she is. She really has that champion mentality where she doesn't like to lose and she doesn't like to fail. And so I think it was cool to see her channel that in a different way towards projecting because it is a little bit harder to do that, to like have that rage and then be able to yeah, not let it get the best of you if you're if you take years to do a route like this. So yeah, she really she truly is a champion for sure.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

It's always been the kind of the question mark with Yanya is like, is she capable of like projecting something at that? We know she's physically capable, like she's proven that, but it you know, it's a it's a whole different beast, you know, climbing outside and projecting something outside and like showing up every day, you know, like she talked about and like just trying to achieve something that's well beyond what you think you can do. Um and that's kind of always been the question mark because she's not really done it, you know. And so I I do think it's cool that she in her comments on it, she really just decided to address that kind of head on about what that process was like for her, because that that I think was the biggest question mark, you know. Like I never questioned her capability of climbing something at that level. I don't think anyone did, but the mental aspects of it are probably like what you would question the most, you know, and are some of the the hardest ones to deal with on the projecting side, you know. Yeah, and for for somebody who's new to that, that's really difficult to do. Someone that finds success really easily in a lot of other areas, you know, like to just get stomped on day after day after day. Like some people are really good at that and some people aren't, you know. And I think when you're you you get success pretty quickly elsewhere, you know, you're not gonna be practiced in getting stomped in the face over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Yeah, I'm also just excited that she uh had like a good experience with it. Like it was hard, but it also seems like it was overall a good experience. So that makes me excited to see maybe what she can do in bouldering or uh even harder sport reader, like where she takes it next, because it it does seem like although it was hard, it was a positive thing for her.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

For sure. It's interesting too. I was talking to Noah about this literally yesterday about like taking a mind like mindsets from other sports and bringing it into climbing, like bringing like Mamba mentality or something from Kobe into climbing. Like, how does that relate? And I wonder if for Yanya, like her comp mentality and her outdoor mentality are the same thing, or if they're two polar like opposite things, or does the rage from the comp like like you were saying, Alison? I wonder if the rage from the comp like fuels the trip to the outdoor like project, or I wonder if like, damn, I need a break from this. Let me go like be in nature and I don't know, like uh me and Noah were trying to figure out what the pipeline is there and like what mentality works where. And I think we just realized that like there's no good mentality that works for everything. Every single process on a new project is like a new mentality almost. And I feel like that's pretty cool and inspiring about outdoor climbing.

SPEAKER_05 35:16

Well, something that made me think about was how Carlo, you were talking about these nuances on the rock, like you know, just even like the different colors of rock and how they handle the different temperatures on one specific route. And and comp climbing, it's more about taking what you get that day and just committing and like it is what it is. There's no waiting another day. Uh, where to really do your best on rock, sometimes you have to ebb and flow with conditions and nature. And even if you feel good, that doesn't mean, well, it's like baking in the sun right now. So that's not the time. And to really push your hardest, it's not just about trying your hardest in the moment and saying, I'll take whatever is there. It's about kind of finding that rhythm and being with it throughout time. And and that's a that's a different skill. Uh so yeah, I think Austin, there is differences there.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

Yeah, I think Austin brought up a good point in that like there you can take mental components from different parts of the sport and apply them in different situations. Like I think that there's there's a lot of crossover. And I think that when people dig into just one process, like if you're just a red point climber that just projects, projects, projects for the red point, I think that you kind of rob yourself of like exploring some different mentalities that that would help you in certain situations, like that execution mentality you're not gonna get if you're just on that project, project, project approach. Whereas, like, you know, if you practice on-site climbing, you're gonna get into that kind of more animalistic, like really trying to uh be just intuitive with your your actions rather than overthinking them. And I think that that carries, you know, into other parts of the sport really, really well. Um, and so diving into different aspects of the sport is not just for like skill, well, it's a skill, mental is always a skill, but it's not just for like the physical components. It's also like like rounding out your mental skill set and how you approach and use these different mentalities. Some of my best competition results are actually after like just purely like on-site climbing in like rifle or other areas, where like I had really good physical capability, but then like I would just go and try and get into this like never fall mode of like I'm going to stay on this wall until I'm at the top. And taking that same mentality into competitions was like really effective because you can be like, oh, I didn't do that perfect, and then just kind of like not give up, but like not allow yourself to go into that zone, that fight. And I just found it so much easier to enter that like every this try matters more than anything type of fight mode after like doing a bunch of on-site climbing. So I try to push people to like engage in different ways, you know, with the sport mentally. And I I think it can be really effective, you know. Have your on-site days, have your, you know, your days where you focus on that projecting and like kind of being relentless and problem solving and other things and and and and approaching it differently.

SPEAKER_05 38:20

So well, I wanted to uh finish it off by letting you know, Carla, that I had messaged, this was years ago, but I had messaged with Ethan Pringle, who bolted the route, and he said that it was totally natural and required like basically no cleaning, even just that it was just a butte to begin with. Um, he also guy, I hope I'm not saying this wrong. I'll ask him to make sure it's okay to share this, but he also told me about the crux. Uh, and who knows if new beta is found. He was probably, you know, working on it a long, long time ago. But he made some comment that he thought the crux was so hard that he would have rather it be the swarm uh as the crux than what was on bibliography. And I also know Ethan struggled with the swarm that he really didn't like those first couple intro moves and like you know didn't do it until he or basically the first time he stuck those moves, he did it to the top, but just that he thought the swarm was nails. So whatever's going on bibliography, probably probably a little tricky there.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

So little shout-out to the I saw I saw the I saw his new film Strength to Weight at uh the premiere of it in LA, and it was really incredible. So just a small Ethan shout-out if you get a chance to see that film. It's really good.

SPEAKER_05 39:34

Those are big Ethan shout-outs. Always good to shout out, Ethan. We love Ethan. Yeah. Okay, last thing. Actually, one more thing on Yanya. Uh I thought it was interesting that she picked bibliography. Uh, just like I mean, it's a freaking king lying. I mean, just it's unbelievably gorgeous. I just didn't surprise me when Brooke crushed Excalibur. I shouldn't say it didn't surprise me, uh, but just that it's I don't know, maybe a little more bouldery or the height of a typical comp wall, um, where something like bibliography is long. That's that's a that is an enduro route. And just that uh it makes me wonder what she's gonna choose next, like and what caught her eye about.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

I think that fit Yanya's strengths really well, actually. Really? How can it kind of fit her because she's got incredible endurance and like really good finger strength and just really good at that style of climbing? Like, you know, if she'd picked like something that was like way like more big holed, muscly, like weird betas and stuff like that, maybe I'd be like, oh, that's kind of a weird pick. But I actually find that I found I've always found that even as a boulderer, like the longer routes always suited me better because the the the boulder problems tended to feel easier, you know? And so it was more of just like this endurance and like perfection test rather than you know, like getting this perfect boulder problem right every time. And so um I I actually I was like this that makes total sense to me that she chose that route. It seemed like an absolutely perfect um one for her.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Alison, you seem to agree uh well I just she's like she's just like I said, she's just a perfectionist, and it's like of all the you know nine B pluses to choose, like to pick the mega at Seyus that is just notoriously hard and long and techie, and like I'm just not surprised she just went in for the the most mega um of that grade.

SPEAKER_05 41:21

So Okay, I guess I'm just wrong. Austin, did were you surprised that that's the one she chose? I just think of her as being like unbelievably strong. Like I I I guess it wouldn't have surprised me if she chose like big holds, burly moves. Like, I mean, yes, she is incredible, good lead climber, but damn, is she a good boulder too?

SPEAKER_02 41:41

I feel like it's I agree. That's I don't think it's surprising. Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

I also just think like when she tops a lead route at a comp, like it doesn't look like she's done. Like she usually just like grabs the finish hold and like let's go.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

And her her her like history too has been mostly in lead climbing. When she came onto the scene, she was mostly dominant in the lead climbing end of stuff before bouldering, really. So and I know that transitioned quickly to just being dominant, period, but she was like initially like the lead climber coming in.

SPEAKER_05 42:12

So yeah, I'd heard she was working on La Dura Dura at some point, which I think of as being a boulder, you know, with a probably still decently hard kind of finishing. But so um yeah, I'll be curious to see what she picks next. Uh, it seems like honestly, it seems like she's good at it all. So as long as she's got that projecting mentality and the goat. I do I hate when people say the goat. I liked how Alison, you start out by saying the greatest of all time. No one wants to be a goat. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

I guess they're pretty good at climbing sometimes.

SPEAKER_05 42:43

There you go.

World Cup Season Update

SPEAKER_05 42:45

Okay, well let's touch really quick on the World Cup season because Allison, I mean, you have probably a bigger comp background. Actually, I take it back. You guys all have competed a bunch, but uh I have not been paying as much attention to this World Cup season just because life is busy. I did notice that Sorato has been winning. That's the whole thing. I just Sorato has been winning. Uh I did notice that Yanya has not been winning, and now it's clear why. Uh, but yeah, what have you thought of this uh this season this year?

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Yeah, it's been cool. I I think they're trying out like these different um every World Cup like has its own theme. I'm not sure exactly how they're deciding or like what they're doing, but um, it keeps getting mentioned on the live stream. So like I think the last comp theme was like tech. Um and then some are power and some are quarter, so they're like that's sort of been new, I think, this season where they're trying to have there be an overall theme for individual World Cups, which I think is an interesting approach. I haven't noticed it be like that different necessarily. Like there's still you know, in the tech World Cup there's still power and there's still corno and lots of jumps and stuff, but um that's been interesting to see them try to do that.

SPEAKER_05 43:58

Do they tell the athletes? Ahead of time?

SPEAKER_01 44:01

I don't think so. I that's what I was interested. Like, if they're gonna start telling people, I feel like people are gonna start not going to like if you're a power athlete, you're gonna be like, I'm not going to the tech comp. So that would be interesting, yeah, if they like released it ahead of time. But um, yeah, I mean maybe they I don't I I would probably have looked more into it if I was still trying to show up to these comps.

SPEAKER_05 44:20

But wasn't there some scandal? I just remember there was some like scandal about like the finals boulders getting released early. Yep. Yeah, they got leaked. What happened with that? I totally blanked on that.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Um a Chinese like one of the local national Chinese uh news outlets, I think it was like a news station streamed footage of the finals boulders ahead of time. Um and it was speculated that nobody actually saw them, but just in case and to like make sure that it was fair, the setters had to reset. I mean, I think quite a few of the boulders. So those boulders ended up being a little weird in that final, but it's because they were like last minute trying to change a bunch of stuff and move holes around and make sure it was fair.

SPEAKER_05 45:04

Alright, so nothing crazy malicious or anything, just an accident. Okay, that was not not the most exciting story. Um I could change it if you want.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

I could just make something up.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

I feel like on the World Cup scene too, recently, they've been talking about like new zone rules and like how like there's a bunch of new rulings with the how you would get awarded a zone. It's way every year is different, but this year even the commentators seem to not understand it. You have to like make the move after it or something.

SPEAKER_03 45:35

I hate the zone rules so much. Even in American comps and we just did a divisionals this, you know, this season at the Boulder Field, and like with you know, all of the RCs and the judges and and understanding the rule book, and even the the way it's written in these rule books is not very clear, in my opinion. And I think that overall as a community, we we need to do better on the rules end of stuff, particularly with the zones, because they're so important with the points system. Um but but yeah, it's it's surprising to me that this hasn't come up more often and that this has now become a little bit more of a touching point. But um I just think there just needs to be more clarity from a spectating standpoint, from a competitor standpoint, and just from an overall fairness standpoint, because it does seem like it's judged very differently depend on who the judge is, and it's it's really hard as a competitor to know whether or not you've gotten points, you know, for for a particular hold, which really does change the outcome of events like a lot.

SPEAKER_05 46:37

So does anyone have an example of where like went bad or is confusing?

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Yeah, Miho Nonaka posted about it from this last weekend. She made a big which I was I was really happy that she posted about it, because I think that's how we're gonna get the most changes, Carlos said, of these rules, is if like the top athletes at the top level of sport start talking about it more. Um if anybody's listening to this and hasn't seen Mijo's post, she has she like shares fully videos of things that aren't zone and things that are. Um, and the one example that she gave of her zone is like I mean, in my mind, it's like pretty bad. Like she's I feel like a lot of times the the sketchy ones are on slab when you're like can't really tell if you're waiting the hold or not because you're standing on your feet, and so then it's like sort of up to the judge discretion. But this one that Miho posted, she was like on a steep boulder with her hand on the zone and like went to go move her foot, moved her foot, and then fell, and they like didn't give her the zone, which makes no sense. Um, and so she she did a good job of she like posted about it and tried to say like that the awarding of zones has been inconsistent and like it's not that it's necessarily unfair, but it's that me for me as an athlete, I don't understand the rules. They don't make sense to me. I don't know when I get the zone or not, and so like that that part of it to me is not fair, and then she sort of shares a carousel of of different um zones. But to me, to me, what matters the most is like with these inconsistent zone rules, it's encouraging athletes to do things on the wall that aren't like natural climbing movement. Like there was so much contention with getting zones at team trials in the US this year that my most poignant uh example of it is that uh Melina Costanza on the last boulder at team trials. It was like a sort of a run across jump to a zone, and you sort of had to like foot stomp and land on the zone at the same time. Um and she had about she hadn't gotten it for her whole time period, and then she had about ten seconds left and did the move and stuck zone and she had about seven seconds, and instead of trying to do the last quarter move to like give her a chance at the top, she like stopped and then like wiggled her hips, like did a little dance on the hold, because they had been saying that moving your hips on the zone was important in terms of like getting purchase of it. So she like instead of continuing to climb, which would have been the most, she was like thinking about getting zone and like how to slide her hips around in order to like get purchase on the hold so that they could prove that she got it, which to me, like that just can't be the best way to like showcase the sport or to award points for somebody.

SPEAKER_03 49:09

No, that sucks.

SPEAKER_05 49:11

Okay, is is it that you have to show control? Is that and like it's really unclear what control is like from that thing, the slab.

SPEAKER_03 49:17

From what I've read, at least in like American rules, is that it's not just showing a control of the hold, it's showing that you're able to move off of it essentially. And so you have to like grab it, but then show that you're able to use it. But it's very it's very nondescript. Like everyone's gonna have a different interpretation of exactly what that looks like. And then on a specific problem, that uh from specific problem to specific problem, it's gonna change what it looks like to show movement or upward movement off of a hold. You know, and it's also like on a paddle, it's like you know, you could barely touch a hold, but then show that you're moving to the next hold using it. That also is the other end of the spectrum, which I don't feel like is like necessarily like giving you the zone for that. But I don't know. I mean, as a root setter, like when I've set these types of comps, we always try to like set positions that become really easy to judge later. But it's also difficult to set that way because it limits what you're capable of doing in certain parts of the problem because you're trying to achieve like an easy judging position, essentially. And so you can't have that expectation at the highest end of the sport, you know, that like root setters are just going to consistently set in a way that makes it really easy to judge, you know? But I I I just think I don't know the answer to it. I've thought a lot about it. I don't completely have an answer to it. Um, I think that's just just tops, top zone. It doesn't quite be a good thing.

SPEAKER_05 50:46

Then you don't uh yeah, you don't separate the field out enough there. Yeah. Um interesting.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

Uh but Miho posted about it because she it like affected her making finals at in Prague. That's sort of what that she it wasn't her zone, it was somebody else. Um and I mean it's always within an athlete's right to appeal to try to get higher positions. So like it's nothing against the athlete that like ended up making finals. But it was a similar thing of like they didn't award that athlete zone on the first try, um, and then they appealed to get it on the first try and they got it. But it was sort of a similar attempt to some of these other ones that weren't zone. And so I think that's sort of what she was calling out there.

SPEAKER_05 51:25

Reminds me, I I was competing in nationals and we were in super finals, and I lost to someone because I jumped and hit a hold. Like I just jumped and tapped it, and the other person locked it off and tapped the bottom of the hold. And they said that because the person tapped it under more control that I lost, and I was I'm still it's been 30 years. I'm still angry. I feel like that's how it's super finals.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

Should they just bring superfinals back? Maybe that's the solution.

SPEAKER_05 51:58

Yeah, yeah. I feel like uh they probably just the reason they don't do that is because it's like just takes a long time, and the last thing they wanted to do was have a super super finals for a bunch of uh kids in you know JCCA. Um okay, you guys are gonna keep moving on. Actually, I wanted to shout out one more thing. Annie Sanders, uh double gold, golden lead, and Boulder. That's just incredible. I don't know. Just want to just good job. Uh actually, despite me not watching the World Cup much this year or the World Climbing Series this year, it's been good. It's been close. I've been paying attention to the scores, and like there's just there's a lot of competition. I mean, I know I just said Serato has been winning everything, but everything else is pretty close. Uh and so I'll okay, I'll tune in next time uh and make sure I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

And some big some big firsts too. Oceana Mackenzie won the first able-bodied gold medal for Australia, and then the Indonesian athlete won the first non-speed gold in lead this week as well. So some big like country sick watch.

SPEAKER_03 53:00

I saw Adam Andres said that it was one of the most impressive things he's ever seen in climbing was that that dude's yeah climb on the finals route. And I was like, wow, that I gotta go watch that because I didn't see it, and I was like, I should go watch that. That sounds good. It's pretty ridiculous. Yeah.

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SPEAKER_05 53:16

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Breaking Down The Exodia Video

SPEAKER_05 53:48

Okay. Uh gosh, too many stories uh this month. Exodia video dropped. Allison, you saw our emergency pod, uh, or maybe you were yelling at all of us while driving. Uh sure did. I mean, we don't we don't have anything else to say. We said it all there and uh, you know, but you haven't had your your say about Exodia.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

I mean, I I feel like since the video came out, I just all I can do is echo all the comments on this video, just wanting more about the what makes the boulder hard and what the holds are like and sort of the actual technical breakdown of the boulder, which I feel like if you're gonna Yeah, if you're gonna propose the hardest boulder in the world, like that's sort of what people want to see. So um but I do what somebody commented on it and said like one of the top comments about that that says can we get a whole close-up of the grips or something like that. I think one of the guys involved in the video replies to it and said says like watch this space or something. So it could be coming still. Like I'm not, I don't they maybe aren't done.

SPEAKER_03 54:48

I feel like even the size of the holds for that one aren't gonna matter that much because it's so like like kind of squeezy compression-y, like like they could be really bad holds, but like the way that the angles of the features and stuff are like become pretty usable. So I'm not sure like that is gonna help a lot. I think really it's gonna be seeing other people on it and and seeing what other people's experiences are on it. For me, the the video just confirmed what I thought from seeing the photos was that this feels like a style that is gonna have a lot of methods and adaptation available to it. Like people with different skill sets and different body types and body morphology are gonna approach it differently because it's very feature-specific. Like there's a lot to kind of grab onto and a lot of little tricks and angle changes, and a lot of places that looks like adjustments for the knees and just how you kind of approach it. And I've always found that style generally hasn't shown to like keep the grade it was initially proposed at, because there's so many options that exist for how to slightly adjust the climbing positions and stuff like that for for different body types. I try to phrase that in a way that it's like not talking shit about it. It looks like a very difficult rock climb, and it was cool to see the video, and it's it's it's a really nice piece of rock. It's even actually looks like it climbs better than I expected for sure. But just overall, that that style historically hasn't stood up in the same way that like the flat wall, small hole kind of boulder problems have, you know, kind of stood the test of time a little bit more often.

SPEAKER_02 56:36

So Do you think uh going into this era of board climbing and stuff, it's gonna do a switcheroo, and this style is gonna be like lost to time and be harder, you know, and like Jade is super soft now or something?

SPEAKER_03 56:49

Yeah. I mean I'd say that, but you still got people like Adam Andra out there who can like knee bar like like absolute machines. And I mean, there's there's plenty of climbers that just don't board climb that much that are really good at at the other styles.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

So I was gonna say all I want is is Adam to drop like a sick, high-quality blog of him going to try to. That would be really sick. That's sort of what I want next about that boulder.

SPEAKER_05 57:13

He it he comment didn't he comment with some eyes or something? He's he's he's aware. He's aware. I asked him about it on the podcast. He'll get to it at some point, yeah, I'm sure. Um I uh I should shout out that when I was in font, uh Elias was there and climbed a bunch with, or not a bunch, I think Bryce Viola climbed with him. Bryce was on the island and uh Elias was on uh Sudane cell, and Bryce had just nothing but good things to say about Elias, that he was really nice and really strong. And uh so you know, I I feel like I'm poking at him and not being as nice as I can be. Uh, and I shouldn't shouldn't always do that because he sounds like actually, Elias, come on the pod. Tell us about Exodia. Just tell us. Um and Big Slam, dude. Uh he's been climbing a lot hard boulders. So uh we'll see. Uh the it definitely made that area look beautiful. It made me want to go see. I've never bouldered in Italy and uh now it's on the list.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Um Yeah, I mean I was gonna say there's always gonna be, you know, there's always gonna be skeptics of it, but I think until somebody else actually goes and tries it, like there's just that's that's what's gotta happen next. Like whether you think it's as hard as it is or you know, from afar or not, like you know, somebody else has just got to go prove it.

SPEAKER_05 58:26

Yeah, I know I'd love to, I would love to hear on this podcast, I'd love to hear him break down all the intricacies because the even the title of that video that was a proposed 9A plus, I feel like did imply that we want to hear more about the difficulty and less about the the story that I feel like you know, if you're going to propose that grade, like back it up more. You know, I I think we all wanted to see that. It sounds like maybe that's coming. Okay, real quick, also a shout out to friend of the pod, Noah Wheeler. He has a soft, soft couch that Austin has been sleeping on. Um, and and he also allows Adam Shahar to sleep on the ground, did Burden of Dreams. Uh we all weren't unbelievably surprised. Uh, but he also did the classic Sung Su thing where he dabbed, knew he sent two tries later, and posted the dab video first. And I don't know. I think they're starting to dab on purpose. Talk about clickbait. Yeah. Yeah. Did you talk to Noah about this, Austin? And he did it. Did it for the Instagram? Just more likes.

SPEAKER_02 59:29

Just yeah, he knew what he was doing. He's good at that game. No, he he he didn't dab on purpose, but he knew what he was doing posting it, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_05 59:38

All right. Well, I uh I I released like a little podcast that I had done with him after his first trip. Uh and in my intro, I uh the thing I really wanted to call out and get your guys' take on too, because you guys are all pros, said something that really impressed me is that Noah went and did it, and I think that he had a lot of pressure on him to do it. He had had that big injury. It sounded like he barely had the the time on the trip to do it. You know, he dabbed. And while maybe physically he was capable, just that ability to execute and get it done is something that professional climbers, I mean, it seems like it's what makes them a professional. And so I just wanted to shout him out again for getting it done, even though I'm I'm guessing it wasn't his most joyful scent. It was maybe a little bit more of a relief. I don't know, I didn't talk to him about that, but uh just wanted to shout out the fact that he executed when he needed to, and good on him. Okay, okay, no problem. I mean, yeah, I guess I just wanted to hear like you know, you other pros saying, like, yeah, that is like what a pro does. Good job, Noah. You're a pro. Um, congrats.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:48

Yeah, but I mean, no one's surprised he said, He almost did it when it was wet. So, like, but that's the point, dude. I mean, okay, I do get it. I get it. I get it because when I went to bishop this last year, I I had I was like, Oh, I'm gonna do the process. And then, you know, like putting a lot of pressure on myself. And if I didn't do it, I would have like quote unquote failed or whatever, right? But I feel like at the end of the day, at least in my head, I'm just I can go back still. I'm like, I have the ability to go back. So there's like a lot of pressure, but also there's kind of no pressure, you know? At least that's how I feel.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

I always find it more fun when you like know you can do it, because he'd already had that one trip where the conditions were terrible and he almost already did it anyway. So I feel like it's a double-edged sword because you have the pressure builds, like you know you're going to send for sure. Um but yeah, it's it also like adds a little bit to me, at least a little bit more enjoyment at the same time, because you like you know, you know that you can do it, which is you have like the proof proof of concept already before you've even gone there.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:45

Yeah, I'm like the opposite where if I know I can do something, I'm like, ah, do I really have to like just keep showing up? This boulder I know I can do, and then have to do it, but yeah. Not a pro. Just not a pro.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:59

You heard it here first. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, Josh.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:02

We all know I'm not a pro. That's what I'm up, but the weaknesses in your mentality here. Okay, another new

Katie Lamb FA's 130bpm V15/8C

SPEAKER_05 1:02:10

one. Uh Katie Lamb, new V15 FA in Yosemite. 130 beats per minute, I'm guessing. BPM. Uh, first American woman V15 FA, is that right? I just made that up, but I don't think there's been too many V15 FAs by women.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:26

And I just gotta point out, like, you know, female FAs, you know, new stuff uh development on that side, I think is amazing. And I think that that stuff is like, in my opinion, just something to celebrate, you know, massively. I think it's really cool to see that stuff. And you know, I tried that boulder problem with Katie one day with I tried it with Keenan, Aiden, Sean Rabatu, and a couple other people that were there. So it was a good crew, and like Katie was kind of like stomping all of us on it. Um, so it was it was pretty cool to see. Like it was it was rad.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:02

So yeah, that is a good crew. That is a good crew. So that's a strong crew, yeah. Uh FA's uh Katie's FAs are amazing, even more impressive when it's around that crew that uh is very experienced in FA, specifically in Yosemite. So tell us about that boulder, Carlo.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:21

It's really good. Yeah, it's it's right above the road, you know, on the 120 coming right as you drop into the valley. Um, so I mean, really close to a bunch of other hard boulders um that are there. But uh but yeah, just a nice clean wall. Just like a lot of like kind of flat holds that are very body position dependent. Like I remember it being a lot in the shoulders and then kind of long moves that are like really outside of the normal like lockoff range, um, and just really physical climbing and slippery, like um not like even though the holds are pretty big, like everything felt like a little bit on the slippery end. So uh but yeah, I I thought it was really hard. It was um like the three moves that are like the crux were difficult, like I thought, like really, really difficult. So very uh very kind of anti-Yosemite style, actually. Like it's got holds, but um you know, still has that kind of technical um and like liebacky kind of feel to it, but um the holds just tended to be bigger, but like slopier than than other things that I've climbed on in the valley. But yeah, it's a weird one. It's like a it's like a block that had like sheared off basically, and so what was left on the inside of it um was kind of create these interesting edges and stuff, but super cool, super cool line. Really hard climbing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:40

Only the second V15 in Yosemite is something other than level terrace apart.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:45

Aiden's put up a couple, I think, that were in that range. Yeah, but like none of those obviously have been um confirmed either, so hard to say.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:56

So Alison, have you climbed with Katie much?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

I actually I've I was climbing on Black Lung at the same time as her one time for maybe 30 minutes in Joe's, but uh that's the only time our paths have physically crossed, but you know, interact online, and I'm a huge KD fan. I think she's like obviously super strong, and she's just I feel like so authentically core to climbing and what climbing hard is and she's just really always going for it and pushing herself and yeah, I think she's she's definitely one of the people that I like look up to the most in climbing right now. I think she's really doing it right and doing it in a way that's super authentic, and yeah, even her posting about the FA of that boulder and the process and um how she feels about the projecting and climbing and yeah. I so I yeah, I would not say we're uh friends necessarily, but I am a big fan of Katie. I think she's doing it right for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:52

We all are.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:53

Um Austin did you get to see that boulder when you were out there? No, Carlo pointed it out to us one day. He was like, Oh It's a really cool one that Katie's trying, but we never went up and looked at it. But seeing the the photos of it, it gets us super me super psyched. I know I was talking to Adam about it already and 'cause we were planning to go back ES 70 and we were like, oh, that's gotta be like top of the list. It looks incredible. So that'll be fun to try. It sounds hard.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:18

So I saw that Eric Bissell had the the camera rolling. I was I always love Eric's film, so looking forward to to you know that coming out. Um okay, another

Liv Ogier FA's Yellow Sun 5.14d/9a

SPEAKER_05 1:06:30

FA, this one Colorado, uh another female FA, uh Liv Ogier. I'm not sure how to say her last name, but it's Yellow Sun. It's uh 14D up at the fortress, an extension to Kryptonite. Uh we'll wanted us to make sure a shout out that she also works a full-time job at Tension. Um if you like their apparel drops, Liv is normally the one designing them. So full-time job, full-time crusher. Uh amazing, amazing send. Carlo, you've been out there and done what's now the first anchors, kryptonite. Uh yeah, give us some insight on that extension.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:07

Yeah, I did kryptonite like years ago now. Um, but the we, you know, you get to the anchor and you look up and you're like, wow, there looks like there could be like a lot of really good climbing left on this wall. And you you feel like you're still kind of in the middle of the chunk of some of the best stone when you're up there. And so it was always kind of this long time vision to like extend it. Um and actually uh years ago, John Cardwell and I went out there in the winter and tried to extend it. We hiked like literally post hold for like four hours to the base of the cliff with like all the static and drills and everything necessary. And then I tried to go to the top of the cliff um by going up these ledge systems on the right side in like waist deep snow. And it was like a full day mission. And John was working on another project um like on the wall, like down below. And then I was gonna go try to go up and like wrap in to kind of scope out this extension to kryptonite. And I actually got caught in a mini avalanche on top of the cliff, and I slid like probably a hundred, hundred and fifty feet to the edge of the cliff and caught myself on a like a dead tree in literally like like up to here snow. And I was like, I thought I was gonna die. Like I literally slid the whole way down and um I like anchored myself to the tree because I couldn't get back up the snow slope, pulled out all the static line that I had, wrapped it around the tree, and then wrapped off the cliff. And I just barely had enough static to basically get myself to the base. And then I like remember I like walked over to John and I was like told him the whole story. And then we ended up having to come back the next day to like bring extra rope, Jumar up it, retrieve the rope. And then we even once we got up there, we tried to get across to the top of kryptonite, and there was just so much snow up there that we couldn't get over. And so that was like John and I's journey of like trying to to put up, you know, the the extension to kryptonite. And we eventually just kind of bailed on it and started. We started that's when we did um what ended up being wind up bird. We we bolted that year, and then we bolted another route that year, and we just did it all ground up because we just were like, we're not going back up into the snow. Like this was too much, basically. So that was like my near-death experience at the top of the uh of the fortress trying to trying to bolt that route. So it was cool for me to see the news because it just felt like this long vision that like I never even got even started on, I felt like, or something that we always wanted to do, just never actually started, basically. And uh yeah, Nick Milburn bolted the extension, and then yeah, just cool to see um you know somebody put the time and effort in at a cliff that's really, really difficult to work things at. Like finding balayers sucks. It's a huge hike. It's like a really remote feeling place, and it's like it's not like a fun hang up there a lot of the time. Like you're kind of just out there. Like it's such a polar opposite to rifle where you like just drive in, belay out of the back of your car, hanging out with friends, can kind of just picnic next to the river and just have this relaxing day. And then the fortress is like the other end of the spectrum where it's like a heinous hike. The weather can be like either really, really hot because it like is like a solar oven, or like extremely cold if it's cloudy and it's just it's a difficult place to project and to like first of all climb kryptonite like that many times to be able to push you know it further is is a significant achievement. But then to also just like see it through, like of actually getting something like that done. So so massive respect. I mean, mainly just because I've spent so much time up there and know what that process is like, it's just easy for me to kind of to understand what that must have been like to go through. But but yeah, it's cool to see. I I I love seeing people that like find a goal in a project, especially something that's never been realized before, and like just make it make it something.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:12

Yeah, I heard that the hike is absolutely insane too, or that's really, really long. And it's just as someone who is really busy right now, and before we click record, I was telling you, Carla, about my little project, and it was specifically chosen because it was nearby and it was a short hike, it was really accessible, and it's cool. It's maybe like not the most inspiring thing that I would choose, but logistics matter, and so it's cool seeing uh that Liv was like so psyched that it's like, okay, I have to drive really, you know, I have to work my nine to five, I have to drive really far, I have to hike really far, I have to deal with, you know, maybe not ideal hang and finding blares. It's just, I don't know, that that kind of dedication, it probably also shows how good the line is because it sounds like it's a mega cliff. I've never been out there, but I have been to Rifle because you just park right next to the to the cliff and just uh hop on in. So um, yeah, uh real quick on Wind Up Bird, did did John ever do that extension? I just remember that was like a big effort to do Wind Up Bird, and then there's an extension on that too. So maybe that's a little is that uh a project.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:21

As far as I know, he has not done the extension to it. Yeah. Yeah. We bolted that years ago, and um I tried it quite a bit. I ended up switching my focus to flex just because like John was working Wind Up Bird and I was really motivated by Flex, and so I just started trying flex more than Wind Up Bird. But even on the days that I was trying flex, I would end the day trying what became Wind Up Bird. But I I think that that wind up bird thing is maybe one of the hardest routes. I mean, it it is graded to be one of the hardest routes in America, but I think it's harder than people think it is. What'd he propose on that? 15B, I think he proposed for it. But but like it's like the boulder problem on that thing is savage. And you climb like a 14A to get to the boulder problem, and then it's like a really, really difficult V14 boulder problem, and then you go directly into like a V10, basically. And so just the way that it like sandwiches everything together, I thought was was harder than than one might expect. I mean, John put a lot of effort into it and and it was a style that fit John really well, and everyone else that I've seen on it has you know struggled for the most part. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:32

People probably recognize the name John Cardwell, but maybe don't remember that he was he is an absolute, absolute beast. Maybe not the the loudest pro, but gosh, strong. Um okay, that was that was a lot of uh big media for for the for the month. Um and now

Ethics Segment: Should Pro Climbers Be Required To Have A Public Database Of Their Sends

SPEAKER_05 1:13:53

we've got uh Ethics Corner that was brought to you by Allison Vest and JSTAR and Jonathan Seacrist. Uh Allison, I asked you if there was any specific ethics things you wanted to tackle since you had been yelling at Will. Uh and you said not really, but uh that you had seen this thing that JSTAR had posted. You had kind of gone back and forth with him a little bit, and it was something to the effect of should pro climbers have a mandatory public log of their ascents? And I thought this was a good one. I'll let you uh start it out, Alison.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:32

Yeah, I mean I think I'm more just floundered because it's maybe not it's maybe not ethics specifically. Um, but I did think it was an interesting question, and I would be curious like what feedback he got from it as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:46

I feel maybe I feel like I'm gonna take uh the opposite opinion to Carlo. I think they should. I think it makes sense to have a public log book as a pro because one, your job as a pro, or not your job, but in in my opinion, your job as a pro is to like inspire people. And I think people like uh knowing what you do and how the hard time they do, I think that's one way to inspire people. But two, your job also as a pro is to like sell the product, right? Like that's like being a professional athlete, you have to sell your sponsored product. And I think with the public logbook, you're just like you're you're putting yourself out there and like it it's almost marketing yourself in a way, right? And the more you market yourself, the more you like grow, and then the more you can be a pro. So I think the correlation between like public information as a pro and being a pro is like a really straight path.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:42

I mean, I'm I'm in complete agreement, actually, Austin. We don't we don't differ from this. I I 100% um yeah, 100% think that as a as a pro climber, um, if you're being paid by sponsors that you should absolutely have a public um database of of your outdoor accomplishments. I think it's just there needs to be transparency because I think a lot of people um find ways to like almost use like the hype around certain things to kind of generate like um a following and generate some sort of like uh fame in the climbing world. And I think it it helps bring things down to earth of like what actually people have done and what they're capable of to have like some transparency in regards to that stuff. And that's not to say that I don't like you know, you're not like wow, that person doesn't deserve to be sponsored because their tick list is a little bit worse than this person. Like I just don't see it as like a comparison on that standpoint, but but I do think that like if you're expecting to get paid from the sport and you're expecting, you know, certain things in return, like you're you're you're taking money from the community to some degree to to go out and go climbing. And I think there has to be some sort of an exchange back. And you're right, you're you you need to be utilized as like um some form of inspiration or motivation or other things, but I I think that the transparency component is also really, really important um to that. And and I and I do think that it is a responsibility of of of pro climbers to have uh a public database of those things. So for assuming you were gonna be different. No, no, it's okay. I just I think certain people, you know, had them for years and then like somewhere down the line just kind of didn't update them as much. Like, like uh like Jimmy, for example, like had a really, really strong public 8A database for a really, really long time and then just in more recent years just hasn't really updated it much. I don't see that as as big of a concern, in my opinion, um, because like he's really shown like what he's done. That being said, like sometimes it's really hard to know what he's he's actually completed or not in the Tahoe areas and other places, because it's like you can't go see what the name is and what the grade is or where this new problems are at. So so there's there's a little bit of like uh a give and take there. But like I said, with Jimmy, it's like he you know what he's done, like he's backed it up a lot, and so it's really easy to kind of just be like, hey, if you don't feel like updating it for the future, like that's one thing, you know. But um, but I think especially with newer climbers or people that are really trying to break into the sport or people that are you know have never had a public database, I think that having one is is is better than that for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:24

What's your take, Alison?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:26

I think what I I guess struggle is not the right word, because I think if it's if it becomes like it's super standard practice to like and it's eight A is the platform and you have to log and like that's just how you do it, like I think I totally understand that. And there's like you know, being a professional climber is at the end of the day a job, and so there's parts of all jobs that aren't super fun, and so if like if doing this specific logbook in this specific way becomes standard practice, then like I understand that. But I also just I think for me I just started feeling like it it wasn't as reflective of like the experience that I had on boulders, and so like and this maybe just isn't the same because it's not as data driven, but like to me, like my Instagram and like as I post about things, like is to me is my logbook because then I can talk about the entire experience and it doesn't become so grayed forward. Um, because for me as I've like gone through more experiences climbing, and I think I'm maybe unique because my strengths are like really strong, but my weaknesses are not, and so the amount of uh like satisfaction and pride that I feel when I do a boulder is like pretty irrelevant from the grade a lot of times, and to me, grades don't really make sense, and a lot of these like data-driven platforms just felt so like obsessed with that grade side of things. Um, and so for me it's felt like more authentic to share a logbook, so to say, in like an Instagram form, or like I don't know, I could start a a blog and have it be like my own blog that's like a list of the boulders, but I feel like specifically a lot of the like scorecard comparison this grade versus that grade, like in a lot of those sites, like 8A just felt like it was not reflective of like my experience in bouldering and in climbing new grades and in having to grade things. But yeah, I guess that's not to say I'm like opposed to having a public logbook, um, but I do think a lot of the platforms that um allow for it right now just didn't feel didn't feel like they resonated or were authentic for me. So I I am one of the people that has not updated mine in a long time.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:38

I noticed that I went I went on your eight a and I was like, huh, like I know you've sent some stuff that's not on there.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:44

I I think that's a really good perspective on it, and I think that's a totally fair like way of approaching it for sure. Because I agree. I don't think that the those databases as they stand right now are like really great at you know being reflective. Like, you know, like I've always hated just like the little green check mark that people do with a problem, just be like, check, did it, check, did it. Like that oftentimes is a really bad, like, like it's not just a box to check, you know. This was like a long drawn-out experience that took a lot of time and energy and like life, and you know, it was it was huge, you know, in terms of my like climbing goals and whatnot. But like I hear you on that. The other side of it is that I feel like um that's a lot of like how you personally like deal with those types of things, and not as much about like how the community utilizes that stuff. Like that's your personal interaction with that space and how you view it. And it's not necessarily like how the public is going to see those things. And so having a database where like you can easily like have the date and then just like you don't have to add even comments, but just seeing like the date you did it and then like what the problem was, and then like whether it was an on-site or a flash or whatever it was, if it was a root, you know, um, I think it's just helpful to be able to have that data in like a really easy to digest um format. And yeah, I think people should just assume that it's not reflective of the experience always, you know. Like I've never thought of eight A as like something that was like a great reflection of like what I went through for certain things because it does feel like certain things that you do really quickly hold the same space as something that took you know years and years and years to do. Um, and obviously that's not the case. I think you know, you're you're transparent though. Like you've put your sense on Instagram, and that does act as a as a database to some degree of the things that you've done. I just think that there are some proclimbers that I've talked to that have basically said, I'm super strong. I want to get paid a lot of money to do this, but I don't want to ever have to tell anybody what I'm doing or what I did. And I think that that's not okay. It's not realistic. It's it's yeah, it's not realistic, but it's also not like I just don't think that that's the way that the current exchange works, you know? Like you can't just get paid a bunch of money by a bunch of people and then not have to interact with or share with the community in any way. Like that's not really how this works. You're kind of getting paid to use your skill set to share your experiences, especially at the upper end of the sport.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:21

So I think what's also interesting, like as a female climber too, is that like I think a lot of the upper level, I mean, there are people, like you said, who have stopped logging at this point, but I think a lot of who like if I were to identify, especially in the bouldering space, like some of the best professional female climbers in the world, I feel like most of them don't really log anymore. Like I don't think Katie does, I don't think Michaela does, like there's a bunch of people who just don't do it. And so I also found that to start getting like a little I guess weird is how I would put it, because I think there's already so much bonus. I mean, in just climbing in general, but I feel like for women specifically, for people to be like pitted against one another. Like I know I I think that was like a frustrating dialogue when Brooke did Excalibur was like there was a big highlight on the fact that she and Yanya were like butting heads trying to do it when I think you know that was not how Brooke felt at least for sure in that experience. Like there's just so much that's already set up for people to be like compared head to head. Um, and so I think when you're like the only one that's logging things, then it like I don't know, it just it to me at least it's made things feel really weird, especially when you're like I feel like a lot of my peers, so to speak, don't do it. Especially when it's like one platform.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:38

Yeah. I I guess as a pro climber, I always I've always pretty much logged and and yeah, there's been periods of time where people were logging a lot and not logging much. And I think there was periods of time when I was ranked number one on 8A for like a year or maybe a little less than a year or whatever. But I I always kind of took those rankings with like a grain of salt. Like I don't think that that year was like my best bouldering year, you know. Like I just didn't put a lot of weight in the ranking system there. Some people do, but I felt like it was like not my responsibility to decide what people did or how they perceived that ranking. It was more like, here's the information, like people can have their discussions about what it is and what it isn't, you know, on their own. And it's not my responsibility to like dictate what that looks like. And I guess I've just always assumed that as like a pro is that people are gonna talk, people are gonna say a lot of shit, and frankly, like I just don't care that much about those things, you know. Like I at least I try not to. It it just I don't let it take away from my experience as a climber and like what I'm I'm trying to get from the sport and out of my own progression, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:44

I hope you uh screen screenshotted that number one ranking, Carlo, if you want to.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:50

I don't think I did. No. Like I said, I took it with a grain of salt at that time too, because like Nale wasn't logging that year, and like he probably would have been similar or if not better. And there was like other climbers too that I'm sure would have been, you know, up there that weren't logging. And so it felt like it I think it's always like that ranking is just kind of meaningless. But I know other people that like were number one, and then when they slipped, they took it off of a public database because they didn't want to show that they had like dipped it all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:22

And I was always this kind of logbook only.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:24

Like, yeah. And I was like, I was always just like, no, no matter where it is, like this is this is what it is. This is the eight-a system. This is what it looks like within that system. It's not reflective of like my own progression and my own capabilities and things like that. I just I'm just gonna be along for the ride. Now I'm I'm like, I don't even think I'm ranked on there because I haven't even climbed enough stuff. You know, that's not that's not saying that I don't feel like I'm capable and proficient outside still. It's just it's different now.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:50

Okay, okay. Well, you guys, as you made it very clear, I am not a professional climber. And so my take uh may be a little bit different than your guys, is if I provide the the Joe Average uh view of this question. And uh I would say, yes, of course, you have to keep a list of your sins as a pro climber for a lot of the reasons that Austin uh pointed out and and and Carlo. Um and then I'm gonna go one step further and say, and the video, and actually one step further, and you have to come on my podcast and talk to me about your sins. Um but I hear what you're saying, Allison, about this idea that doesn't encapsulate the experience, and it's like a very muted version of yeah, just like a green check mark. What's funny is it actually reminds me of old school ethics where people would do something and be like, Yeah, I did the rostrum. And you're like, Okay, like, you know, like that they just didn't talk about it. It's kind of like, yeah, I I did this. Like there is no story, there is no like, oh, like my buddy like broke his arm and then somehow we like crawled off and just like made it happen, like there was some epic. It was just like a very like tight lipped kind of version. Of like I went out there, I had an adventure, and now I'm back. And I think that it what it means to be a professional is kind of what I talked about when I shouted out no is send, is that there's an element of he would have a ton of excuses. He's like, dude, I just got my finger injured. Like I did send, but I dad, my trip came to an end. It got too hot. Like all these things that are excuses, but the truth is that when people look at pro climbers right or wrongly, they still are like, Yeah, but did you get it done? Did you get it done though? And this is one of the things like that I get made fun of on here, rightly so, is that I don't know, I don't always get it done. You know, it's like I could do it, but did I do it? I'm not a pro. I actually feel like that is one of the differences, is like just getting it fucking done. And I love hearing the story. I want to hear uh more behind it, uh, but sometimes like being a professional means having the camera in your face while you're trying your hardest moves. I remember being on trips with people I won't name, uh, and it's not always the most fun for them when there's, you know, the videographer wants to leave. Um, can't you just fucking send the project? Like, I came out here, like get it done. Um, and so I'm not saying this is like the most fun part of climbing, but as someone who's an avid consumer of pro climber content, I I think that you owe it to oh it maybe oh is the wrong word. I appreciate it when pro climbers have a list uh on eight day, and even though I know it doesn't tell the whole story, I actually enjoy that kind of insider baseball I call it, where it's like, wow, you did the swarm in June in June or something? Like, geez, that's crazy. Where it is just a check mark, but it's kind of fun to know about all the intricacies behind it, and I feel like that's what real fans are like, but there is still just this requirement to kind of like this is your job. Um, tell us what you did, and a video, and a podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:01

I want to agree with Allison right there. And I want to say that I think that Instagram and like just like making it public information, in my opinion, is counts as a logbook, like we were saying before. Like, yeah, I think you don't necessarily need to log it on 8A because I understand that not everyone likes the whole ranking game thing. Like, that totally makes sense. Outdoor climbing isn't competitive by nature, right? Like, it's not supposed to be, that's the whole point. So I feel like in logging on 8 day, it's like in a way become competitive. And like I know I'm I'm naturally competitive, but I like I'm biased because I like 8-day. I like logging on 8, so it's easy for me to say that uh I think all pro climbers should log for sure. But I think as long as it's public information, as long as you're making your sends, your story, like as long as it's public information to me that is like enough of the quote unquote logbook to count as like getting it out there. You know, I I know on in Kerala's talk they brought that up even. They they mentioned like, is it a pro climber's responsibility to like publicize the sends they do, or like if Aiden FA something, should he have to post it, right? Like and I think yes, but the way you do it doesn't necessarily matter as long as they're doing it.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:14

Agreed, except for we don't talk about other podcasts here.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:17

Yeah, sorry. Cut that out. Cut that out.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:20

Maybe I'll just maybe I'll just put a um is it what I'll put like a Google Sheets link in my Instagram bio and look at my spreadsheet.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:29

I mean, I have it, I'll do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:30

That's actually pretty sick. You should do that. Fred Nicole has like a diary, like a written diary of everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:36

Mine's on my desk right here.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:37

I always love that. I would love to see like a like a publish it. Yeah, like Fred Nicole's like, you know, uh history of climbing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:46

All right, well, look look for my look for my Excel spreadsheet dropping soon.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:50

Hell yeah. Dropping the spreadsheet. There you go.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:53

I want some pushback on my thing where I was saying, like, not only do you need to post it all, but you should have videos and everything. I I mean I'm trying to represent that side of just like a rabid fan, and I understand some of the uh the realities of not wanting to encapsulate entire experiences into just a check mark. But um, yeah, like what do you think about people like me who are just like, oh, what do you mean? Like, and I want videos. I'm serious about that though. I I try to do that on my A Day, is I try to link videos. I try to always video any send I do that would be past my is that is that targeted at me?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:29

Because I'm sitting on like four or five videos.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:34

Yeah, but you you like drop you uh no, but you have Josh public call out of Allison on the pod right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:40

I did not watch it on today, I guess. Release release the content.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:46

I thought that you do have some big video drops coming on, like you have uh what's it called? Like a whole big events where you release videos. That's a whole nother story. That's a whole nother topic of like the Sean Bailey sitting on something for a year. Yeah, yeah. I and I feel like that's a different conversation um than just videoing in general, where I uh yeah, I won't name names, but we had a discussion around someone proposing a significant downgrade um while not having video of them sending it and how that felt, you know, where it's like like there's there's something there. It's like if you're gonna have an opinion on things, it's kind of on you to to back it up.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:28

To me, it kind of like sort of echoes what Carla was saying about Jimmy sort of stopping logging um and that being more fine because he's already you know he has had such an incredible career that he's backing it up in a way. Like I think if you you know shit happens and cameras run out of battery and your phone dies, and like you do things when you don't necessarily have a camera set up, and so like if that's a one-off and you do one boulder and you're like I missed the footage, I don't have like the actual send footage, um obviously like yeah, you can't always get it perfectly right. But I think if you're doing that on like every single ascent um and trying to be a professional climber, that's like a different story. But if you record most things, you have footage of most things, and you release the footage and you back it up in a way, and then you know, you do this one boulder and you don't actually have to send footage because something happened. Yeah, like I think obviously there has to be like a little bit of leeway in it.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:26

Um I always just repeated the boulder and did it for video. That was my always my thing. I was like, yeah, I didn't get it the first time, so I'll do it again for video. Just show that boulder. It was good training. Yeah. Yeah. That's something that I did a lot. Like I I repeat boulders a lot. Like I I would, I mean, some of the harder things that I've done, I would do them like like six times in a day, even you know, like just do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again. Do it once and never go back. I'm like, I want to unsend that. Like Austin was talking about top notch, and it was like I did top notch, and then like two days later I went back up and did it again. And then every time I would go into upper chaos, I would like go do top notch and then go do something else. And then it was just like adding things to the circuit was like a huge part of like my climbing, you know, and and I still do that a lot. Like I in Yosemite, I would go do Dominator every day for years, you know. Like a couple years I was doing Dominator like almost every day. So it was just like a part of my process, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:22

So Austin, what were you gonna say about Adam?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:24

He yet just yesterday he and this will come out in a little bit, so he won't mind, but just yesterday he flashed uh don't get too greedy, and he didn't video it. And then he tried to do it again, dabbed, dropped off, and I was like, I'm not, I'm telling this shit. I'm just he's he's like, You guys saw it, I'm not doing this. And I was like, Yeah, sure, I'm gonna say you didn't flash it.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:44

As long as he's got wit as long as he's got witnesses, yeah as long as he's got witnesses, like it's all good, you know. And that's yeah, but the witness is me, so maybe he doesn't. I think you're his harshest critic, it sounds like, dude. I think yeah, I think I trust you more than anybody, man. You're the one that would be calling him out.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:01

Yeah, I uh although I think it is brutal about that whole uh video thing. And I think you get a pass if you are like Jimmy and have a huge resume. Well, I mean he doesn't get past, he doesn't he doesn't even have anything that he's been claiming, and people are like, oh, we want to see a video. And I actually would point out that I don't know if this has been Jimmy's choice. Uh I don't know him uh well enough to to say this, but it seems like he has kind of stepped back from trying to be in the limelight. And so the whole thing about having a logbook, having a ton of videos, you know. I mean, I think there was a a choice there. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:35

From my knowledge of Jimmy, Jimmy, I think was just climbing so many new things so much that he he like there's so many things that he put up that are like really hard that he even forgot to name. Like, I was like, What'd you call that thing? And he's like, Oh shit, I don't I don't even know, man. He's like, just call it something, man. I don't care. Like, and I'm like, he's like, I just can't think of more names, basically, you know? And I was just like, dude, you gotta like at least call it something. Like, like, yeah, there's V14s that he's put up in Yosemite that he just didn't name. He was just like, Oh yeah, I for I I forgot about that one, you know. But it's like that's how Jimmy operates. It's like weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:10

He's also had like a pretty savage hand situation recently. I don't think it's been like a step back from necessarily anything, but like his hand was like it literally was stuck like this, so he couldn't grab any holds.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:23

And he was still climbing really hard, but then then I'll just link that to my previous point that as a non-pro, as a rabid fan, like yes, I would love to see. I'm I I am not alone in saying like I want to see more Jimmy content because we just love it. Uh and when he posted that thing about does anyone want more board content? It's like, fuck yeah, we want more board content, Jimmy. Yes, more more anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:47

I'm doing a kilter board video with them on uh Thursday. Oh, awesome. Okay. I'm gonna be in a board video. I thought you hated boards, dude. I'm not a big fan of boards. It's gonna be me getting getting completely curb stomped by Jimmy. Jimmy on the kilter.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:05

I'm like, dude.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:07

I'm like, I'm about to get savagely beat down, but I'm trying to come up with some boulder problems that are like very suited to me, which I I've climbed enough with Jimmy, I know how to like at least have a chance, I guess, but he's still gonna destroy me. He's gonna absolutely destroy me.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:22

I know people were so hyped on that board. I was like, if I posted this like iPhone faraway board content, it would get like nobody would care. But everybody just loves, you know, everybody loves Jimmy and Jimmy content.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:33

So yes, more Jimmy content, please. And rare. Yeah. Okay. Uh that's it, you guys. That's that was the the main segment. Let's let's move on to some bonus questions. We went long, you guys. There was a lot of stuff to talk about, but uh, change location four times.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:53

Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:58

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