Good Temps #15 — Noah Wheeler’s Rampage, Janja’s 50th Gold Medal, and Why Sending Is The Most Important Part Of Climbing

Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:00

If I said dog paw medicine to you, what does that mean? Dog paw medicine. Yeah, yeah. What the hell is dog? What does it mean when I say dog paw medicine? What does that conjure up for you, Austin?

SPEAKER_03 0:09

It conjures up uh I don't know. I I tried it once. It it it I don't know. I can't I I I'm the worst person you can ask, probably.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

Welcome to the Test Peace Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com/slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Good temps. We're back. We got Carlo Traversi, Will Anglin. We do not have Austin Hoyt here. He ghosted us. I don't know what he's doing. He's on some climbing trip, being young. We bring him in here because of that young vibe, but this is a little too much of the young pro climber vibe. Doesn't even show up.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

Oh goodness. He was up, he was up late based on his based on his gram. So out in the park. Yeah. Dude's so classic.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Because I tried to tried to text him, tried to call him, but that's not how you find out what young people are up to. You look on their Instagram. Good, good, good job, man. Figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

It'll late night in chaos. Yeah. We've all been there. It wasn't like a late night out party. So we got to give it to a mayor.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Hell yeah. Dude, do you guys ever see these guys when they go out for yeah, like night sessions and they'll like shotgun red bullet like one in the morning or two in the morning? And I just don't know anything about that. I understand it. I just how do you go to sleep after that? Like I couldn't, I couldn't go to sleep after.

SPEAKER_04 2:08

You're so fucking tired. It doesn't matter. There's not enough caffeine in the world at that point. Uh but those are such good times, dude.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

I was on the Chaos Night session for a couple years and it was amazing. Like I loved it. I I don't know how many sends I had at like, you know, midnight up there, like with no one else in the canyon, or at least.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Yeah, you said that, dude. Did you go up by yourself? That place would terrify me in the middle of the night. I I would feel out there.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

I texted Austin last night when I saw his post because he was talking about like having a stick to like fend off things or whatever as he's hiking out of there. And I I I wanted to bring up a story. Like one time I was in Upper Upper and it was like midnight, and my phone died, headlamp died, everything died, no full moon, and I got out of there without any light. And it was like an absolute spiritual vision quest of like getting my way out. And I got lost a couple times. And you know, this is a hike I've done hundreds and hundreds of times. So it was like, you know, it's like I know every footstep, but I got lost in the transition from middle chaos to lower chaos in the trees, and I like missed the trail. And then once you start questioning once you start questioning your direction, it all goes to shit. Like you're just all of a sudden you realize you don't have any idea where you're at and you don't know what's going on. And I had like a half hour where I was just kind of wandering around like in the trees of lower chaos, trying to find some sort of landmark. And I finally found my way back to the trail, but I was just like imagining running into like all sorts of animals out there. Dude, I actually looking back on it, it was like really, it was really like a good experience. It was like one of those like really wild out there experiences, you know, and like I I look back on it fondly, but in the moment I was fucking terrified. Like I was like, literally, there was like moments where I was like, I was like in like a panic, you know, because I was like, Maybe that's what is happening to Austin right now.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Maybe he's lost in the woods and we're just giving up the shit.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

It's 11, it's 11 a.m., man. He can't find his way out of here now, dude. He's starving.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Oh god, just deep. Um man, I I just can't imagine being up there at night. I have heard of climbers who take guns up there, dude. They're like, like, have you heard that?

SPEAKER_01 4:21

People like in Colorado. I've heard that. There is no need for any of that. I don't find chaos to be particularly dangerous at night. Like the worst you could run into, in my opinion, is like a moose or something like that. Um mountain lions are typically not up in those areas. Yeah. But the moose, like I've run into a couple moose, like I almost actually ran into the back of one one time. It was like five feet away from me. And I like I thought it was a black bear at first, and I was like, oh shit, black bear, which usually aren't that big of a deal. Like, you know, black bears usually not they're pretty mellow. And then when it turned around and I noticed it was a moose, it freaked me out even more. Um, but luckily it was like pretty chill and like didn't seem to bother. But but yeah, like I don't know, I haven't been ever that worried coming out of there. You know, it's like I'm more just like worried about getting lost and not actually being able to get to the car than like an animal or something like that. So but I I I spent like 80 or 90 days up in chaos one season, like literally every day of the season into like October. And uh, and I was pretty much exclusively going up at like 5 or 6 p.m. and then climbing until midnight. And so I was I was leaving by myself every day, you know, at night. And so you just get used to it, you know, it becomes kind of like a normal part of the process, which is which is chill.

SPEAKER_04 5:38

Yeah, you get to be feeling at home in those places, and it's it's true, and it's cool. That's I think one of my favorite parts about I mean climbing in general, like most of my favorite places have some element of that where like it it takes effort, but you you get to a point where you just you feel at home. It's just a place you go, like you belong there and it doesn't really matter. And that's just a cool feeling.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Yeah, and you get like this intimate, you you like feel like you know every little like like little like footstep and crevice and like little landmarks you start to notice that aren't like the big ones. And it's like I know every little like snow patch and I could watch it kind of like decrease throughout it, you know, time and then every little boulder and every little footstep and every little little meadow and all the little things, you know, you start to know all of it. And I mean honestly, like chaos is like one of my favorite places on earth because of that, you know, the time spent there and like like the intimate knowledge of it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Here's a little tip from someone who grew up in the country is when you're out there and it's deep, if you're by yourself, yeah, you don't see necessarily a lot of animals, you're tromping around. If you just sit there and you're quiet for five minutes, just don't move, like the whole everything comes alive. Like it's there's so many things around you that you can't see because you're loud or you're scaring them or they know you're there. If you just sit still and don't move, like then you see what's around you in a good way, not like in a scary moose black bear way.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Okay, well, uh I will stop making fun of Austin because he's lost in the woods. Hopefully, he brought his gun. Um, and I will say that, yeah, it's only the three of us. Uh Will, you're back. We had Alison Vest on last time, who was amazing. Uh, we loved having you on, Allison. Every all the listeners love having her on too. And so hoping to see her back again soon. Probably should have invited her a day because Austin did not show. Uh and also didn't mention last time, Allison. She's been on one. She's been sending freaking hard. I feel like she leveled up, which you know, it's a big deal when you kind of level up at that level she's already at. And, you know, we forgot to give her her flowers during the pod, so now she's not here, and we can say nice things about her behind her back.

SPEAKER_04 7:50

Yes, never to their face.

SPEAKER_05 7:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

Uh but uh she's yeah, definitely on one. I think it's especially cool because I feel like from having conversations with her, she's after big boulders, like boulders of big spans. She's just kind of exploring that. She's got long arms, and it's not typically, I think, what she's normally like after looking for for boulder problems, but she's just kind of been looking for like she was out trying vanilla sky, which is still like about as far apart as uh two little crimps get. So I think it's especially cool that she's excelling and kind of pushing herself outside of uh what she would probably consider her typical style.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Gosh, did you see her send uh Fis Eye in Red Rocks? Have you guys looked at that? That looks beautiful, like those that kind of like spire, like the tourettes, just it I guess that's like a widespread boulder too. It just looked so good. That definitely went straight onto my tick list. I I don't know if you guys have seen it, but good job on that, Allison. That uh looks like a beauty. Have you been to that, Carlo?

SPEAKER_04 8:55

Have you been to that one? I haven't seen it in person.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

No, that got put up, I think, after my last trips to to Vegas. I haven't been down there in quite a few years. Nice. Um, yeah. It does, it looks really, really nice. It's like a beautiful piece of rock. Um I'd say the style doesn't like the little like shuffle squeezers, like for me, don't like I mean they're cool and they're beautiful, and I would probably try it, you know, if if someone else was psyched to get out there. I don't think it's something that I would like specifically like, you know, go towards on my own. But um, but yeah, I mean it's just a style thing. It's obviously a big, beautiful piece of rock, you know. I'm not gonna like talk shit about it. It's just like I think there's other things in other things in Vegas that I I probably would prioritize before that, right now, at least.

SPEAKER_04 9:38

So what do you look for? What's your shit? What are you into when you're trying to pick a boulder?

SPEAKER_01 9:45

I like things that don't look like they're going to work and then work with a specific kind of like interesting body position. So like features that are maybe opposing, but like offset opposing, so that they create like really weird, kind of interesting like like positions to have to get into and like navigate through. Like, I like like footwork tension in that way, like and body tension in that way. And and that's like more like where I'm at right now. Like, I don't that's not hasn't always been where you know, like obviously Yosemite. Yeah, yeah, that really does sound like Yosemite. Yeah, like big, beautiful lines and like tall, like standout, you know, just lines where you're like, oh yeah, that just makes sense as something to climb. Um, that's that's obviously paramount, and that's something that's been consistent throughout my climbing. But I feel like nowadays I'm just looking for like really interesting feature sets that like you know that they work, but you don't quite know how they're gonna work together. You know, like if I see a double arette, I'm like, oh yeah, I just squeeze the arette. And it may be really hard to squeeze the aretes, but you know, like I understand the features, you know. But I think now when I go out, I see like like oh, I see a big feature, and then maybe there's another feature over here, and like I think they can work together, or I could think I can find a way to make them work together, but I don't really quite know how. And I think I'm finding that that is uh helping me kind of explore that you know, creativity with with movement. So and that's how it's set nowadays, too. Like in the gym, like I'll typically pick feature sets that almost kind of line up in a weird way, and then you have to figure out ways to kind of work with them, you know. So it's funny how like the things that we look for outside tend to be like what we end up setting in the in the gym.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

So yeah. Yeah, how about you? I honestly really, really similar. I like things that you look at and you're like, this has to work, right? Like there's this and there's that. Like I don't get it. And maybe there's like a section that looks blank or or not necessarily blank, but like none of this adds up, but there's too much here for me to not be able to find a way through. And then yeah, that sort of exploratory type of of climbing, of just trying to I like when I do moves that I haven't done before, and that gets harder and harder the longer I climb. And so I end up kind of gravitating towards weirder and weirder things to get myself into a like a place that I've not been before because that's fun for me. That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

I I feel I feel very similarly.

The Tension Training Center

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Well, now you have the TTC to set these wild moves on. Last time you were on, I alluded to you being busy and working on a bunch of stuff. I thought you were gonna talk about the tension training center, and you did a little bit, but you talked more about the the cool new 16 by 12 TB2 expansion. But uh, I wanted to hear more about the TTC. What are you guys doing there? I know there was an article in CBJ, but I can't read Will. I don't read. Um anymore.

SPEAKER_04 12:54

I wanted to hear it from you.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

I saw the Instagram, like literally, it was like an Instagram post, and it was like the title was something like the TTC is doing cool stuff. I was like, that sounds cool. I'll just ask Will. Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_04 13:07

Uh yeah, I mean, it's it's been sick. It's honestly been kind of a dream come true. I mean, fundamentally, it the whole thing is just an experiment. You know, it's not a climbing gym, it's more of a studio uh than anything else. I like for uh filming all the different media projects that we're working on, you know, a place for visiting athletes to train and and then also kind of uh a bit more of like a community-oriented uh spot that some people might hear that and be like, well, then how come I can't get a day pass, or how come I can't come? And it's like, well, dude, first of all, chill out, like give me a minute. Like it like it things take time, and I think I I just in general, I'm a cautious person in this kind of way, and I I build things slowly, uh, and like we'll see. We'll see what it turns into. But um it's been it's been super, super fun. Um, we've got a great crew in there. Um to the point about like doing moves I haven't done. Like, I we hired a uh head route setter who's like got a super different style of setting than I'm really used to. And you know, that was largely on purpose because I want to climb cool new shit that uh I I'm not usually exposed to. So that's been really fun. Who's the setter?

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:38

Ruth. Ruth Yang.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:41

She used to she she was formerly one of the Stone Summit headsetters and then got her to move out here for this. Um she's setting the World Cup in Salt Lake. She's done a bunch of yeah, she's her schedule this year has been insane. Uh that's awesome. But yeah, a lot of a lot of cool events.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

Um so if it's not a commercial style gym, when you guys think about setting, like how do you decide when to turn over a setting, or like what are you saying? Because I know that you guys have boards, spray wall, but then you have like a comp bay. Do you only set for these different events that you do or camps? Or yeah, like what do you direct her to do? I don't.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

It's her, she's the boss. Um, I mean, in general, it's about a four-week turnover, but it's super flexible. Um, if people want things to stay up, they can stay up. If we want to turn something over early, we can turn it over early. The events always kind of throw a wrench into that anyway. So I don't know how necessary it is to get super regimented about it, because then three weeks later we're like, oh, we gotta strip the whole wall. We're doing wall stars, or we're doing a clinic or a camp or whatever. You know, we have like a rough structure to it, but in general, like it's it's pretty try and keep it pretty adaptable.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

So do you guys have like really, really, really hard boulders there because you know that your community is often you have a lot of professional climbers coming through? Uh, do you guys grade things? Like, I'm just curious now that you have like it wide open. I'm guessing you're not like, okay, we need to hit like four V zeros because we've got birthday party. You know, it's like this, it's a little more free-flowing, but you have like some really hard stuff, or is that the wrong way to think of thinking about it?

SPEAKER_04 16:31

I mean, it's mostly challenging stuff, but it depends. I mean, so much of this stuff is like style dependent. Um, and a lot of I think what we're trying to do is introduce more different styles to more people. And so if someone's never really had to engage with like a comp style no-hand slab, like a relatively easy version of that might be super challenging to them. Um, and so depending on the style, the level shifts, and depending on who we're kind of expecting to come through, the style can shift. But in general, yeah, it's all it's all pretty hard. I mean, it's especially because we have, I mean, we have the spray wall, we have the boards, like it's not like you can't warm up. So we have like a couple of things that are on the easier side, but for the most part, everything that's on the wall in the comp bays is there for a reason and is challenging at a at a level that you know makes sense for the people who are going to be climbing on it. But we uh we're not grading anything. You can just look at it. If you can't tell how hard it is from looking at it, I don't know, man. What is that?

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Uh that's like some statement around like if you go to a restaurant and they don't have any prices, like you can't afford it. Like, if if you have to ask how hard it is, maybe you don't belong in there. Is that what you're trying to say? I didn't say that.

SPEAKER_04 18:06

No, I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but like it it's not the first climbing gym you're gonna go to. Like, no way. Wow, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Do I just love that idea? I feel like great grades are kind of pointless in that type of space. Like you're looking to get better at something, you know, and if there's opportunities to get better, then it doesn't matter what the grade is for them, you know.

SPEAKER_04 18:27

Yeah, either you can do it or you can't. I mean, that's like the I and and might be a good segue into the the the comp scoring. Like, I think something that is cool about climbing, and I certainly think like at least the way that I like to engage with it, and I've maybe said something about this at some point in the past, but like the the only grading system that matters to me is haven't tried it, tried it and have it done it, or I've done it. So, like in the end, the only thing that really matters to me, or I think should really matter to anyone if you're trying to get better, it's like, well, how hard is it? It's like, I don't know, try it. Then you try it. Can you do it? You're like, nope, okay, well, then there's probably something to learn here. Like you could get stronger, or you could get better by continuing to try this thing and figure out what that is, and then you do it, and it's like, sick, you did it. Like, next thing.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

I got I got actually a question for you on that. That I I I hear what you're saying, but I had the interesting experience just a few days ago where I was on a commercial set and they did a thing where they kind of a cool hybrid where they put the color of the boulder in the sense that each color represents a grade range, and then a couple weeks later they'll actually put a grade on it. And I think it's supposed to incentivize people like, hey, like this may be something that is appropriate for you, but who knows what what grade?

SPEAKER_01 19:45

I mean, that's essentially what we do at the boulder field.

SPEAKER_04 19:47

So I think I think it works. I think it works for some people. Like different gyms do it different ways. Some people do full circuit grading where like there's a range and they never really nail down an individual grade, or sometimes they do a range and then they come back and do a grade as a way to try and encourage people to get on things they otherwise wouldn't.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

I don't want to get into the grade and circuit debate, which is a whole interesting debate. But here was my my experience that I wanted to share to see what you think about where it comes to grading things. And so I'm on something and it's got some tag that says it's like like a five to a seven or something, or maybe it was like a little bit harder than that. And I'm on it and I can't figure out how to do it. And I do figure out like this way, but I'm like, that's like a double digit way. Like I must be missing something. And so my point is like sometimes when you're looking at something and it has a grade and you find a way through it, and you're like, dude, that was like V11 or something. This was supposed to be like V7. It's like a warning flag to me that like I'm missing something. And so my my point there is just to say, like, I still had something to learn. I was able to, or actually, I didn't end up doing it that way, but like I figured out a way through, but I didn't feel satisfied because I was like, I feel like I'm missing something here because I'm not dumbing it down to the level that it was nominally supposed to be at. Maybe it wasn't exactly in that grade range, but wasn't going to be four grades outside of it. Totally. And so that that's my little bit of pushback in my experience.

SPEAKER_04 21:14

I mean, I think there's totally utility to that for sure. But I would also say I think like as soon as you're climbing with other people, I think the that sort of just happens. Um but if you're solo, yeah, and you don't really have anything else to go off of, and yeah, you did it. But if there's some sort of indication of like, oh, well, there is an easier way, then that can prompt you to continue to like explore options. At the same time, like I I think, at least the way that I engage with gym climbing, like I I very rarely just like do a boulder problem and move on. Like I'll do it and then I'll try it without another hold, or I'll add a hold from another climb. Or like when I walk into a gym, like it's actually this just happened to me. I went to movement and I like, I don't think I climbed an actual boulder problem that they see. That there were just a bunch of holds on the wall for me to play on. And I just did whatever I wanted to do and made up a bunch of cool shit that was fun and then tried to do it different ways. And I hear what you're saying. And I think it's yeah,

How Much Should World Cups Prioritize Sends Over Zones?

SPEAKER_04 22:13

that's legit.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Okay, well, I love that as a segue into some World Cup scoring discussion that actually Allison Vest told us we should tackle. And it was this issue around scoring where the zones have become so valuable that you can end up in a scenario where a competitor does a lot of zones, they get a lot of zones and they beat someone who got more tops but didn't get more total points. And it just prompted this internal discussion on our thread about is that okay? Like, how do we feel about tops not being extremely valuable in comparison to zones? And yeah, I don't know. I don't want to save my uh two cents yet, so maybe I'll hand it off to you, Carlo, who's probably done more World Cups or competition climbing than than all of us combined.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

I mean, uh, USA climbing has experimented with different scoring systems. IFSC has changed the zone tops scoring system over the years that shifts like the weights in different directions, whether it's for tops or for attempts to top, you know, zones, attempts to zone. They've shifted around like how they use those and you know, how they prioritize them over the years. And it's kind of been like a 15 or 20 year cycle of that. So I I feel like I've seen it go a lot of different directions. Um, and I feel very confident in saying that prioritizing zones over tops, in my opinion, is the wrong way to do it. I think that the way that they've weighted the system, and it sounds like they've pushed it now this year to giving a higher priority to bonus holds, zone holds over um over tops. And I didn't know that. I haven't stayed up to date exactly on like the the adjustments to the scoring over the years. And and yeah, I'm not I'm not on board with that. I mean nobody gets points in climbing for you know doing half the route or half the boulder problem or you know, getting midway through something, you know, like we don't we don't celebrate that as a climbing achievement, really. Um I mean, yeah, it's it's great to celebrate uh improvement on stuff, but but yeah, I mean the send, the top has always been the priority. And if you got four boulders and you do well on all of them, but don't get to the top of all of them, it's kind of meaningless, in my opinion. Like as opposed to somebody who does terrible on three of them and tops one of them, they're still the winner that day, in my opinion. They they finished one of the climbs, you know, and and I think that that's always been the the goal. So I know that competition climbing is different from outdoor climbing, but I think that we we start to lose the the focus and we start to kind of lose the plot, you know, in in terms of how they correlate together. When we start to veer from that, I think that's one of the more essential components of climbing is the the top and the send and the finishing of something is what counts the most. And you start to take that away even in the competition standpoint. I think you start to you start to veer too far from what makes climbing climbing and what makes our sport, you know, the challenge what it is, you know. So I hope that they make adjustments to that, you know, like we've flamed out on IFSC already a few times in this podcast, and you know, uh they have made some adjustments to things. I hope that the the competitors see it for what it is and start to, you know, uh uh Allison did a great job in our group text of pointing out certain athletes that should have, with previous scorings, gone higher. You know, uh they should have they should have made finals because of their scores in semis, but because of the way they've weighted things with the new scoring system, they didn't, you know, even crack the top ten. And and yeah, I think that that's unfortunate. I hope those athletes speak out. I hope those athletes, you know, say, hey, I don't think that this new system is is valuing what we should be valuing, essentially.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Yeah, Carlo, you single-handedly put a million dollars into athletes' pounds. Uh and and and just to to put the the negrity details out there, uh, I believe it's 10 points per zone and 25 points per top, and each try reduces your score by 0.1. So yeah, Will, what did you think of uh this kind of struggle between zones and what they're worth and how to score that versus tops?

SPEAKER_04 26:52

I'm super aligned with Carlo. I was really disappointed when we moved away from like the tops attempts to top before you start uh looking at zone. Yeah, I just it's to me, it's what makes climbing climbing. And again, like I I to mirror Carlo's point, like I I get that indoor like competition climbing, and there's a lot of things that are different about that uh than rock climbing, but I think it needs to stay rooted in climbing or stop calling it climbing, because it's starting to like it if you if you lose that anchor point, then it's just a Ninja Warrior game show with colorful plastic on the wall and people swinging around, which is fine and maybe makes good TV, and maybe that's a sport like American Ninja Warrior did numbers, you know? But I would like to see climbing stay climbing. Um, and I think there's plenty of evolution and cool shit that can happen and and keep it climbing. And I think one of the core things about climbing is getting to the top, like it's all about getting to the top. And I think it's cool for success to be that binary, like you either do it or you don't. Um, and there's really no in-between. On the other hand, like I understand the argument for why they originally made that change. Like it to, I think, especially someone who maybe doesn't have as much climbing experience in general, you know, watching a comp where someone does one top and then like can't even start the other boulders in the round. And then you watch somebody else like drop the top on every other boulder in the round, you're like, wait, how come how come that person is beating that other person? They did way more moves like to to somebody, they might be like, oh, well, that's clearly the better climber. But I think that's just a it's a misunderstanding of the sport, I think.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

I think that's even more of an argument in favor of sticking with the tops being more important because you've got somebody new coming into the sport that now sees uh an outsized value in and just doing moves and not actually getting to the top of something. And I think it's good for them to see that like it doesn't matter that this person didn't get very far on the other climbs. They topped one of them, and this other person, even though they fell off like matching the finish on the others, they didn't finish any of them. And and you know, in climbing, that's still the most important thing. So I think that it it's almost like re-emphasizing the the most important aspect of climbing. And and I I think I mean, I'd love to talk more about this. Like, what do you guys think was the intention of IFSC to to adjust the scoring in this way, to give bonuses that I mean, like I I know what you mentioned, Will. Do you think there's anything else? Because that that would be my first question for them. And my first question for anybody who adjusts a scoring system or makes a scoring system is what is the point? Like, what are you trying to prioritize? What are you trying to gain from this adjustment? Like from a viewership standpoint, from a fairness standpoint, from an excitement standpoint, like what are you trying to create within the confines of this system that this new scoring can can now kind of like create a result that that meets what you're looking for, you know? And and I mean that's how I've always approached, like I've built a number of scoring systems now, and you know, we all I've always gone into it with like almost like a mission statement of like, what are we trying to achieve with the scoring? Like, what is the end result that we are looking for? Like, I get it. If you don't want the last two problems of the comp to not matter because somebody has already like topped one and no one else has topped one or or whatever, like I get that. But is there another way to achieve that? You know, is there another way to get there that doesn't put an outsized amount of value on something else? You know, like everything's a bit of a give and take. And I think that if you don't have a very clear mission and purpose for what you're trying to achieve with the system, then you're always gonna fall short, you know, of that goal. So uh I guess what do you guys think? I mean, I wish we had someone from IFSE here to explain like this is what we're we're trying to achieve. They haven't done a good job of explaining that, you know. Like I feel like if they're gonna change a scoring system, there needs to be like a very clear explanation. Like, we're making this adjustment. This is why we're making that adjustment, this is what we're hoping the outcome will be, so that we can all look at it and be like, okay, maybe it did achieve that, but maybe there's some adjustment on the back end that can, you know, negate some of the negative effects of that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

I really like that concept of just what is the goal? Like, like what's your goal? Because, dude, that's really up for debate too. You could say to be more exciting for the audience, to be more fair to the competitors. I my hunch, and I this is just fully my hunch is probably has more to do with uh more consistency to allow for better segregation of the field when it comes to being a route setter, and just that it's less likely to have uh like bigger clumping. You know, because it just gives you like these checkpoints and opportunities for people to kind of like, did you pass that test we put on the wall where if you you know, imagine if you had no zones, right? You could just say, Well, why have zones at all? It's like, well, like that could be that's harder on the setting and harder to I I think it's just harder for the setters to do their job uh in a compelling way if you have less checkpoints. So yeah, that that would be my argument, but I just love that idea of just what's your mission? Like, what is the thing you're trying to accomplish? Because then you can argue either you're not trying to accomplish the right thing, or we agree with what you're trying to accomplish, but maybe this is a better way you can do it, or good job. We see why you did that.

SPEAKER_04 33:05

I mean, I think a a scoring system inherently is like a codification of values for an activity. And I think that's what I dislike so much about where it is right now, is because if it's climbing and the most important thing to us is going to the top, then why does the scoring not reflect that? And I think I'm I'm resistant to the idea of manipulating the scoring system outside of those values in order to accomplish even something that makes a lot of sense, like what you're talking about, Josh, like as far as you know, being able to separate the field. I think that there is a need to establish what you know, what the values are, how the scoring reflects that, and not over-manipulate the scoring to achieve those goals, because there are so many other ways to achieve those goals. And I think route setting is one of the most flexible parts of this thing, and one of the coolest things about comp climbing and climbing in general. And so I would rather see a scoring system more in line with the values of climbing so that we have a foundation somewhere and it doesn't turn into a game show. And then let's play with what we're putting on the wall. Like we have complete control over the field of play in a way that maybe no other sport has. Like we have more dials to turn than just about anyone else, and I feel like the scoring system is doing too much work uh in that way.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who helped make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else, and those episodes are ad-free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay, back to the pod. That was really interesting that thing you pointed out, Carlo, about how even if you see someone doing you know, getting to the last hold on four problems and just one person only makes it to the top, and someone watching might think, Oh, but that person is so strong, but that the whole point of the sport is to get to the top. And it made me think of I don't know, skateboarding or something. It's like, look, I'm like hucking myself off of this onto this giant rail and it looks really cool, but I never landed the trick. It's like, what were we doing, you guys? Like, what uh what's the actual sport? Uh and I always try to play devil's advocate just to bring in a new uh different point. But I do really agree with you guys about tops being what climbing is about. And I think one of the reasons is is because in my experience in climbing or just hell, in in life, it's often like that last one percent, that like belief you have that you're going to finish, that is so hard. And sometimes like you'll see this in sport climbing. It's like you fall at the last move, you pull on, you do the last move. You're like, what was going on there?

SPEAKER_03 36:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

And it's like a mix of physicality and

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SPEAKER_02 36:23

mentality that can't be denied. And I want to see that reflected in comps to, you know, be true to our actual heritage, even if we're on plastic, you know?

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Yeah, to use like Will's language, it's like in climbing, like our most important value is like the top, the send. So like when we create a scorian system, that has to be like the the preeminent value that that sits above all else. And it's troubling that IFSC, in their whatever refocusing that they're doing, have decided to degrade the number one value in service of something else. So what up, Austin? You just woke up.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

You're on you're on mute too, by the way. Oh, Kevin, welcome.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

I literally just literally woke up eight minutes ago, I think.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Oh my god, dude. Dude, it's almost noon, man.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

No, I got back at like 3 a.m. last night. Oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Did you send? Was it worth it?

SPEAKER_03 37:25

I pointed twice in a row. That's good. Good job, dude.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

That is good.

SPEAKER_03 37:29

Nice.

SPEAKER_04 37:30

But he but he didn't, but he didn't top. But he didn't, but he didn't have the zone, but you did not top.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

You got the zone, but you didn't top, so it doesn't really need to be.

SPEAKER_03 37:40

I don't know if I controlled the zone even, honestly. I don't know if they would have given it to me. What move did you fall on? Yeah, I do like I follow on the common, but like I like slipped twice into the stand of Leviathan. I like hit my hand in the jug, and then it like slipped out. Oh, okay. Which beta are you using? Are you using the gastone? No, I'm basic I'm basically doing I'm doing your beta, but then switching, like doing Leviathan the big way, not the knee bar way.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Oh, you don't use the knee bar, damn, dude.

SPEAKER_03 38:07

I can't I yeah, it's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Dude, I wish I was there to show you because you would do the boulder if you did it the knee bar way. You can take a nap in the knee bar, dude. I was not a believer for so long, and then once I learned it, I was like, this is the only way. Like, this is the only way. And I hated that knee bar to start with.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

I was like, I was like, I just don't want to fall because I can't knee bar from the start. Like, that would be so annoying. So I'm bailed.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Well, you're gonna fall because you don't knee bar from the start.

SPEAKER_04 38:40

People give shit on the knee bars, but like knee barring is not always easy. No, no, that's a hard thing.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

You gotta learn that's a very hard knee bar, and it's very like it's not a typical like lock the knee in knee bar. It's like all pressure and maintaining the pressure as you twist around it, and the pressure can't change. It's like a very technical foothold, but like it's on your knee instead, which I think is cool. Like, I think it's very cool. Like, I think it's a cool knee bar. It took me a long time to understand it, and once I learned it, I was like, this is a sick knee bar, and it like it kind of makes this thing work like in a great way. So I agree.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

I'm just not good enough.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

You guys are talking about creature of the black lagoon up in chaos.

SPEAKER_03 39:19

It's such a good bowler.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

How come they don't allow knee pads and comp climbing?

SPEAKER_03 39:24

I think they used to, or me. I don't know, I don't want to speak out of my ass, but I think it's just because not everyone has one. You know what I mean? Like it would be an unfair advantage sometimes, disembarking.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

That's like that'd be like not everyone has a chalk bag. Like people like like knee pads are not prohibitive.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

They don't allow hand jammies, you know. I think that they've like, they've just like this is the equipment list that's allowed, and they haven't expanded upon that, at least at this point in time. And I think that's the only reason. And I think it's fine. It's like that's been generally the accepted equipment list for a long time. And I think most people think that like you can climb everything with this equipment list that they have there that's allowed. So why expand on it at this point, you know? And and I agree with that, you know, like we've talked about this. Like, we've got the the, you know, we set the rules for comps and we decide what guidelines we want to play in. And those have been the guidelines for a long time. And I don't see like a really uh strong argument for adjusting those equipment rules at this point, you know?

SPEAKER_04 40:23

Um it's it's like that in other things too, like if in cycle racing or right there are things that like you, you know, for this race, this is what you can do. And if you're outside of these parameters, it's not okay. And that's legit. Nothing wrong there.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

We allowed knee pads at one of the TBF masters. But what I did do is I I came into ISO and just said, there's a knee bar. Um, you're gonna want a knee pad because I didn't want people's knees to get destroyed. And we gave everybody a knee pad that didn't have one. If someone didn't have one, then we collected knee pads to give out to everybody and just said, here you go. Everyone's got the same equipment. Good luck. And that's what that was the first of that 360 knee bar where you place the knee bar above your head and then spin under and around to like release. Oh god. Like that was the first, that was the first one of that. And I was worried that we had set something that was too complex for the competitors to read. And that was the point of going into ISO and being like, there's a knee bar, and you know, use it because you're gonna want it. And and and it helped kind of get people to do what we wanted them to do. And and luckily it worked out. People did the boulder, they found something, and we had like a viral clip that came out of it, and then you know, hundreds of people repeating the same move over and over again, which I thought was setting knee bars. It ruined setting knee bars, yeah. But it was a lot.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

I like these little subtle things setters do where like you put like a little tick mark on something, like let people know there might be a jib. And that idea of like you walking in saying, Hey, does anyone want a knee pad? Just saying, maybe there could be uh so Austin, we basically just all agreed that tops were really important in World Cup climbing. Uh, I actually one last thing I wanted to say on that, and one of the reasons why I don't like some of the zone rules is that you ever see people do something weird on the boulder just to like touch a zone and get those points? It's like maybe they could somehow dyno to kind of it like ruin the rest of the boulder, but just for those points, that to me is shitty. I hate that. Like, do not alter what climbing is so you get these points. I understand why they do it, it's not a knock on the competitors, just you know, so yeah, Austin um tops zones. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 42:36

I I actually think I don't know where you guys fell on it, but I I I think the new scoring that they settled on is the most legit and most fair so far. I don't know. What did you guys think about that?

SPEAKER_04 42:47

Ooh, let's fight.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

We completely disagree.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

Yeah, yeah. You go, Austin, welcome. Good to have you.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

He woke up and chose violence. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:55

Here okay. Here's here's what here's my I think since it favors like consistency, it really just is the most fair, and there's no way like you can see.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Consistency of sending or consistency of doing moves.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

This is so good. It favors consistency of getting the furthest on boulders, and I think like it favors like well-roundedness as well, you know? Like you won't just if if there's two chordos and it's like, oh shit, now the guy's over.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

So so soon have his piece. I have a question that'll help. I have a question that'll help with this.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

So if if you've got four boulders, someone tops one of them and doesn't do any of them, the rest of them, and then someone falls off the finish hold of all of them, you think the person that fell off the finish hold of all of them should should win the comp.

SPEAKER_03 43:42

I I legitimately do. But maybe, maybe I think that because from personal experience, because I'm bad at doing I'm like, I get nervous on the finish moves, and I'm like, oh, I got high, I got higher than everyone on all there, you know what I mean? But I do think there's something to like. Someone who topped one boulder in their style, did they climb better than someone who fell off the last move of every single boulder in four different styles? You know, I don't there's no clear answer, and I totally understand the argument for like the tops win.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

You're changing the entire like game of climbing by by putting that out there. Because then it's like you're prioritizing doing a move or doing well on something as opposed to finishing it. And climbing has always been about finishing it, or else we would all just go out and do pretty well on everything and then not actually do it, you know?

SPEAKER_03 44:36

Maybe I'll I'll say I think the scoring they have now is the closest they have to the fairest scoring. I maybe they haven't nailed it yet, but I still do think I think it's the closest they've got. If they you're right, they need to figure out a way to make it so tops are more important, I think.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

But Allison brought it up in the in the group in our group chat where she just said it's an easy fix. They just need to make the the zone holds worth eight instead of ten. And that means that if you get four bonuses, that's four eights, it's twenty-four points, and that doesn't get you quite to a top. Unless, well, that's your math is a little off there.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Well, uh four times eight is thirty-two. Um no, and then I just so it takes four four zones. But no, but that is her balance.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Is she saying like it in amidst some hours of sleep last night? Holy shit. Um no, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

I I think I I do think though that I it should be reset up so that you can't have like someone doing all four. Yeah, maybe it's six or something, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:41

I think six for zones is cool, yeah. I just I just think about it, Austin. Like, take comp climbing out of it. You go on a climbing trip, you don't send anything, but you get really fucking close on a lot of rigs. And then meanwhile, you know, Adam's on that trip with you, and Adam does a boulder, and you don't do any boulders. Like, like who had the better trip? Like, well, yeah, like does Austin win or does Adam win?

SPEAKER_03 46:11

I got higher on more boulders.

SPEAKER_04 46:13

So I be got higher on more boulders, but even if he did one, though, you know, like he got to log something on 8A, you didn't get to log anything.

SPEAKER_03 46:21

It's true, my 8A is gonna be hungry.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Okay, actually, I want to steal man Austin's side even more, though, is that you have these things where it's like, oh, I'm a better well-rounded climber. Like, I, you know, climbed on all these, and the one person who just has like one skill that they're good at, and then they could execute and showcase on one thing, and then they suck at everything else. Like, because we hate those climbers. Do you guys have those friends? Like, I have a buddy, he's like, I will only climb on crimpy boulders, like I will never touch a sloper, and you're like, okay, dude, like great. Like, uh, I can't stand those people.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

The route setting can handle that. Nobody has a career in climbing for all the things they got close to, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Not yet. Well, but this current scoring system could essentially, you know, give somebody Mike a career for it.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

He got close to Mandala.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Yeah, that's true. I wouldn't call John, I wouldn't call Josh having a career other than talking on a micronose. Oh, I'm just kidding, man.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Um, it is true though, uh, that if you don't send, like I gave I gave a bunch of props to Noah the other day, remember? Because I was like, dude, he did burden. Like, of course, it's almost like expected after seeing how he did early on, but like you have to fucking do it. Like you have to do.

SPEAKER_04 47:38

He still had to fly back to Finland do the boulder despite falling on the last move. Like, I think that's just that is rock climbing. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 47:48

I just I like the idea of them favoring cons like consistency too, though, you know, like because they want to have the most well-rounded climbers in the finals, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:56

See, the other the other thing, Austin, too, is that I I value like I see when somebody gets to the finish hold as like 10% of the work, and the 90% is like controlling it. No, I you can't. Like the same outside, like somebody getting close to something is virtually meaningless to me when I see somebody outdoors. Them finishing it is the most important aspect, like actually standing on top after climbing from the ground. Well if there's less snow on it then. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Well, I think we've had this talk, Josh. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_04 48:29

I can agree with that. So it's it's also not clear, it's not clear to me that the goal is to get the most well-rounded climbers into the next round.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 48:40

You know what I mean? Like exactly that I think that's an assumption that I think I just I just scrolled through the men's Innsbruck rounds, and like, if you ask me, that's clearly not the intention. Like, it's picking the person who can swing sideways the best gets you into the next round, which has gotten a little over the top in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

That's why I thought it was really important to point out that what we're doing or what what our you know guiding principle is is not fundamentally physicality. Physicality is part of climbing, but then it's like, yeah, why not just like just have you hang on a hangboard or how many pull-ups can you do? Like, like, yes, you need to use your body to climb, but that's not what we give applause for. Uh, yeah, it's not a game show, um, which by the way, do you guys know I did Ninja Warrior? Do you guys know I was in Vegas and did the finals and everything? Yeah. Uh, you know what? You know why I hated it? So, yeah, so you can you can make make fun of me. But here's what actually was so awful about is that I remember we were me and my buddy were like watching it on TV. You're like, these guys are not athletes. These guys are like bodybuilders or something, like they're not they don't understand, like they're not athletes. And so then we tried out and did it and did really well and went all the way to Vegas and everything. And what really bothered me is that it didn't take the competition seriously, it was TV first. And so I remember this one thing where some guy fell and splashed water onto some balance obstacle, and the next guy slipped and fell because there was water on it. You know, you're just like, Were you good or not? No, like and then I don't even know if I'm like allowed to say it's probably his marriage so long ago, but some dude didn't quite finish the third stage or the second stage. I can't remember, the buzzer ran out, and so they refilmed it so that he did make it in time so that they had someone to go to the next stage. And you're just like, I was I was right, these are not athletes, these are not competitors, this is a game show, that's their guiding principle, and that's okay, but it definitely made me look at it all differently.

SPEAKER_04 50:42

And I think we don't want world climbing or IFSC to go that way, right, Austin?

SPEAKER_03 50:50

Right, Austin? Unless it's consistency. Yeah. All right, I was wrong, I think.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

No, dude, don't don't let these guys bully you. Don't listen to these guys. They don't know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

I do get it, because Carlos right. Because I like I said, I'm really bad at like doing the last move of boulders. You know, like that is like I get in my head and I'm really bad at just like locking in and doing it, and that that's part of it, and that should be awarded.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

I think you would be a better climber if you put less value in your own climbing around doing the moves and getting close and refocused your climbing on the execution of actually doing the boulder. Like you would gain a lot in that practice. I think if you put a lot of value in doing the moves and getting really close and just feeling good on the climbing, then I feel like you don't put as much energy in towards the actual finishing of it. And I think if you shifted that value set in your own climbing, I think that you would you would gain a lot from it. I think you would go a lot further in the sport.

SPEAKER_03 51:52

That's no, that's that's funny because that's a conversation I just had last week with some really strong climbers who were there was Noah. Noah's right there. Noah told me I need to try from the start sooner because I like spend way too much time, you know, not trying from the start and in the wrong mindset. So he was right.

SPEAKER_04 52:09

I will say, I your opinion though, Austin, I I think is a common one. And from a certain perspective, I think it makes a lot of sense. The thing that I think that the three of us kind of keep coming back to is ultimately cut like having a definition of climbing and like what is valuable in climbing, and then we want to see that same value expressed in the competition form of the sport in order to have some sort of grounding force in the sport to keep it on track. Because if if we sort of lose that foundation, then it can go anywhere and it can start to look like anything, and it starts to not really feel like climbing anymore.

SPEAKER_01 52:51

I think the issue that you bring up too is like seeing people get further and then not get rewarded for it. Like, yeah, that that is frustrating at times. And I think that there is a way to have both to some degree, and maybe not completely, but I think there's a way to keep tops as the highest value and the the goal of it all, but also still values people's attempts and you know bonuses and consistency throughout around. And I think that can be adjusted through root setting. I think it can be adjusted in other ways, not by devaluing the top, which I think is what has happened, you know?

SPEAKER_03 53:34

Yeah. No, that makes sense. Climbing is topping.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

All right, you guys, do you think Alison's gonna be driving, yelling at us, uh pounding the steering wheel with her fist? Or you think that she'll agree? We'll have to, well, yeah. Hopefully we did Jessica.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

We spent like I can't wait to find out. Yeah, yeah. We probably botched something with that, but you know. Well, I know I botched I botched some math, so I know that. Yeah, dude, it's hard to do math live in front of four beats. I never do that.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

I was like, I was up for two hours with my two-year-old in the middle of the night, so I'm gonna blame it on that. You know, you what grade did you finish, Carlo? Because pretty sure we did multiplication in like fifth grade, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 54:10

It's been appropriate.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

It's been too long, it's been too long since first grade, you know. I've I'm starting to lose it all.

SPEAKER_02 54:18

Uh

Noah Wheeler Climbs Two V16s In A Week

SPEAKER_02 54:19

did see that No Wheeler did two V16s almost uh in a day. Uh had to hand it to him on that video. Saw a little cameo from you, Austin. Saw you in there. Um yeah, any anything from Boots on the Ground about I saw the wheel rock. I I uh I clicked like, but um, that was some of the bigger news that happened uh in the past month. But yeah, what was it like out there?

SPEAKER_03 54:42

It was pretty sick. It was pretty inspiring, honestly. Because no, we're talking about you. It was pretty inspiring.

SPEAKER_02 54:51

Give us a little wave. Tell Noah to give us a little peek his face. Good job, Noah.

SPEAKER_03 55:01

There you go. But uh no, it was super inspiring because we were we were fine, we were watching that Aiden Roberts video the day before. And Noah was like, I'm gonna try to do two V16s in a day. And then he he basically he almost well, you know what? If we were in the World Cup rules, he did two V16s in a day, basically. And this is why. Yeah, even on Creature though, he like did Brace for a Cure, and then on Creature, he was like dead tired, worked out a beta, and then he just didn't fall on the hard part. The hardest part was like not getting pumped. So he just came back the next session and just walked it. It was pretty inspiring.

SPEAKER_02 55:41

Didn't do it though. Um Carlo, I feel like you might have something to say about Brace for a Cure. Uh, how do you feel about that climb? Is it amazing? Is it just five stars? Is it uh yeah, tell us a little bit about Brace for the Cure.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

I hate you know, like talking shit about what gets other people stoked. And like Matt Foltz is awesome. Like I love Matt Foltz as like a person and obviously just a an extremely talented, very, very capable climber, and just you know, I competed against him for years, climbed with him, and he's awesome. Um, and you know, I think as climbers, we all have to be as open-minded as possible about other people's visions, you know, in terms of like what they see as like a interesting challenge for them. And and that's different for everybody. Um that particular problem uh I have a hard time with just because it's so it's just bad beta for an existing boulder, in my opinion, because of how close the lines are. Like if you look at it like uh like on like a topo, it looks like it varies like uh more than it actually does. And I just find it to be like a a poor resequencing of a climb. And I think that if you let those things become legitimate climbs, then I could go out and re-sequence any climb in my backyard or wherever and with really poor beta and just call it something really hard because it it is. You know, it's like like obviously like respect for doing hard moves on on a wall, but we have certain guidelines that we follow for like what becomes like an actual boulder problem and what becomes an actual line, and what is just a like a variant or a variance of something or just like a like a makeup kind of climb, you know? Like I've done boulders where I've skipped holds, like I've I've gone out, like I play on climbs over and over and over again, and I find eliminates and variations and other things that I want to do. I don't go calling those like a new boulder problem. Those are just like a fun thing to go do. And and I've always drawn that line for myself of being like, you know, this isn't anything different. This is just about like an exploration of something by eliminating something else. And I've just had a more pure like outlook on those things, or at least I f feel like it's a more pure like stance towards definitive lines in climbing. And the brace for the cure one, in my opinion, has always been like the perfect example of something that I feel like is that is too far on the slippery slope end. Like if we allow that to be its own boulder problem, then we open up the door for like virtually anything to be re-sequenced or eliminated and it for it to become like a hard climb, you know, and and and to be something to like discuss and put out there. And there's so many good projects still out there that are independent, amazing lines. Like maybe in 20 years that becomes the only way to like redefine and to make things harder because we've just run out of. I don't think it'll happen, but I'm just hypothesizing. Like I I I've always enjoyed just this exploration for new rock and for finding new things as like the way to like elevate the sport, not just to like eliminate holds on an existing wall that's there. And so I think that's my like perspective on it. I don't view it as a boulder problem. I don't think that it is a a real accomplishment. I don't think that it's something to achieve in the sport, that that particular climb.

SPEAKER_02 59:30

Uh before we go too deep into it, do you guys remember what Matt said when he did it though? I I I don't remember. Like, and maybe we should better describe like it uh if I remember correctly, it like starts in the same spot as Jade. You do the crux move, and then you cross over the side.

SPEAKER_01 59:46

You do the crux move of Jade, and then you cross over, and then you actually go into the foothold that you a foothold that you use on Jade, and then you do one move on thousand shades, but then you go back into the end of jade. So you literally just leave jade for like a move, but you end up climbing on what most people use as a foothold of jade before you go back into jade again.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

But it can't just be like a limited or like it's a link up, like it either of those are legit, like people.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

I don't even think though it's like a logical link up, in my opinion, because you don't actually like like leave the boulder problem in a way. Like you just re-sequence the same boulder and you use like one additional hold that's a foothold on it, and then you do use the one additional hold that's on thousand. Do you do you use like is there one totally different hold that's not on jade?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:38

The way I always try to think about is like how would it look in a guidebook? And if you're gonna describe it as like start on jade and climb into a thousand shades of green, right? Like to me, that's just like a link up because you climb directly into the start, do the first move, and then do the same chop out. Like I don't think you're wrong, but I also think link ups are totally like legit, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:59

Even though it is a it's like a weird case, but but it's like you start in the same place as jade, you end in the same place as jade, and use almost all of the same holds as jade, except for one. So, like, and you could go touch that hold later. Like you could go back and engage with that hold later. Like it doesn't even like interesting. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:19

Oh, I didn't think of that beta.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:20

It's like so close. It's like, could you, with the right logic, do the boulder just in a different sequence, even and end up using the same holds? Like, how defined in the logic can we be? You know what I mean? Like it seems like a total break in like all of the normal logic of assigning like a problem or a challenge, in my opinion, you know? I love that that problem exists because we can have this discussion because I think that it's a slippery slope. Like I could go find a problem and and do the exact same thing and we could have the exact same discussion about it. So like it's nice that it exists because now we can decide how we feel about it, you know? And I'm I'm strongly on one end of it, but I'm happy to hear the discussion from the other side, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:03

I mean, it's it's almost a well, one, like if Matt were here, he would probably be like, yeah, I don't know. I just thought it was fun and I could do that move that way, and it felt sick, and so I just fucking did it. Uh and I think that it's it's important, and I think we would all agree, like, even to what you're saying, Carla, is like you do whatever you want. Like it's rock climbing. If it's sick and you want to explore and you're having a good time, like I don't think it's a big deal. But I think that the distinction that you're making is like if especially in this, I think what kind of extra puts this over the edge is like, well, well, it's also a world class of difficulty. And like, do we want what looks like the future of the sport as far as like pushing difficulty to be going back and essentially like resequencing or eliminating or doing things to make it harder in a contrived sense? And I use that word knowing that climbing is inherently contrived in many ways, like you could walk around the back, but as far as like what we've defined as what boulder problems are supposed to be, like I I agree, I think that particular boulder is not really like I don't necessarily consider it a boulder problem, but it also doesn't matter. I couldn't do it anyway. So but yeah, I mean I think in and Austin, I and Noah behind you, like we kind of had this conversation the other day. Like, there's good shit out there, like you don't have to just start on the footholds of something. Like, I like I know you can, you guys are freaks, but there's also like just walk another 20 minutes. Like, dude, there is so much out there, and it's so sick, and you guys can do it. Um, and we want to and we want to see you do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:53

I think it stems from like climbing on like in areas like where we aren't as lucky at to have as many projects, you know, like something like Lincoln Woods, or or uh you would know, Will, you're from the East Coast, like there are areas that have mega projects, but you just got like when we get out after school or done with work, you drive to the local craig and you're like, all right, today I'm gonna try this boulder this way, you know. Like that's kind of how the local zones are there. It's it's it's weird. And I think coming from the east coast, and it's like a whole different vision when you're like, oh, why hasn't anyone it's so obvious that you can do this? Why hasn't anyone done this? You know? So sometimes it just happens.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:33

I think those are great, and I think those are like fully should be there, and that's why I don't think it's like not something to climb. Like, yeah, this is something that someone can climb. I think that it just when it gets put out there as like some like groundbreaking achievement or something that's like really brand new to the sport, you know, in a weird in a way, like that's where I find that like it's got an outsized value for what it actually is, you know. It's like it's like nobody gets points for like climbing the little local difficult contrivance at their local crack, you know what I mean? Like you'd look at it as just kind of like, oh, that was a fun little like exploration of movement and just the holds that are here and just what's available to me, not necessarily like something you throw on your tick list as like something that you're super proud of, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:17

So I don't know if we and that's why I wanted to point out like what did Matt say, and I'm the one who was like, Good job, Noah, you did two V16s right near each other. Because uh, you know, I don't think anyone was saying, like, hey, like everyone look at me. I did this. And what's wild is that it's it probably is one of those circumstances of like, well, I was there, so I climbed it. You know, sometimes it blows my mind where I see someone did like a sit start to like a V3 that then is like a heinous one move V11. I'm like, why did anyone do this? It's like, oh, their you know, their friend was working whatever the V five next to it, and they just did it. And it's just blows my mind because there's probably an element of that even at V sixteen versus like you know, V eleven.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:59

Yeah. I I even look at, you know, the creature link, which is a much more obvious link up. I even sat under that and was like, this is so fucking stupid. Like I'm literally getting to the edge of the cave that has an easy exit, and then I'm cutting hard into the middle of the roof for 20 more feet before exiting, you know what I mean, to get on top of the same climb. And like that's that's me sitting there being like, that one is a really obvious link up, in my opinion, where you're not sharing holds. It's very much like you you nearly do a complete climb and then you go into another complete climb. And I do think they make a lot of sense. And I'm even sitting there when I was trying that, being like, this is kind of fucking stupid. Like, what am I doing? You know, like so that's a little bit of like where I sit, you know, with the whole thing. And I'm not trying to condemn other people for doing link ups and other stuff. I think that stuff can be really fun and and and motivating to try and whatnot. But I'm much more strict with like what I call a line or what I call a boulder problem, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:00

Okay, you guys, I'm gonna keep it moving. We got real life to get to. Uh,

Beckett Hsin Gets His Driver’s License and Janja Wins Her 50th World Cup

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

I did want to shout out that Beckettchin got his driver's license. Uh big news. I don't I don't know if you guys know this, but when Kai Whaley came onto the pod and I asked him how do you go from good to great? He said, get your driver's license. So that picture of him doing insomnia or on Insomniac, and which he did was such a cool picture. Like I feel like that just is burned in my head. Like yeah, shout out, yeah. Who took that pic? Uh, I should give him that was Brennan.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

Yeah. Oh, it was Brennan. He works, yeah. He works for he works at friction labs uh doing the marketing and stuff. And that cave is not the prettiest in in most senses, and he made it look incredible with that photo. So um, yeah, I thought that photo.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:52

By the way, also Brennan's been on one. He's been climbing uh really hard, and he was coming back from his second knee surgery. Also, Brennan used to edit the test piece podcast back in the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

Oh, really? So shout out to Brennan. He's he's crushing it right now. It's really cool to see him come back from like a pretty significant, you know, knee surgery and stuff, and just like his second one, dude.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

So yeah, his second one on that same thing. So good for him. Okay, also wanted to shout out, Yanya made a YouTube channel. Just wanted to put that out there. I'm psyched. I'm psyched about that. I mean, I I know it sounds ridiculous, it's like a YouTube channel, but I love Adam Andres' YouTube channel. I love Jakob Schubert and the media he puts out. It's just for people like me, super fans, just eat up more of beautiful footage of these people doing their best. Uh, and also I thought Yanya just was like, I don't know if you guys even watch it, but she was kind of a natural, kind of good already on camera. And uh so cool to see. I really want to see the big story behind bibliography, too. I don't know if that'll come out there, but maybe that's what the future is instead of us waiting for you know the tour or some big event. It's like, dude, just go check our YouTube, which would be awesome.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:02

And big ups on the uh 50th gold. Oh, that's right. Holy shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:09

That's crazy. Yeah, what a crazy amount. Allison was like, don't forget to tell everyone that was youngest 50th gold. There we go. That's insane.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:16

Like, it's uh we're kind of desensitized to that, but that is messed up. Yeah, that's insane. She had two seasons back to back where she didn't lose, she won everything. And just think back to the comps, like, she's gone through whole comps and not fallen. Like, she is that is what's up.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:38

It is so cool. Uh Alison pointed out that it was a big deal how emotional she was about it. And it's just interesting that someone who is so adept at winning, so used to winning, still just continuing to put herself out there and clearly cares about each win. Like, why get so emotional about 50th versus 49th? It's like probably because she is still trying her best and like winning still matters to her.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:04

It's not easy to win.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:05

Yeah, it's never easy. Each time it gets harder. It gets hard. Yeah, yeah. Dude, people have kind of stepped up their. I'd say she's facing more competition now than she ever did. Everyone's looking, dude. Annie Sanders.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:16

Yeah, and shout out to Annie Sanders as well for having a really dominant season. I don't think we've talked about that enough on here, but it's been pretty cool to watch her, you know, elevate to that to that upper level. Um, and it's been pretty obvious. I I saw I don't see that many clips from the World Cups, but I saw some clip of her climbing a slab at one of the more recent World Cups, where no one else, I guess, got through really the start of it. And I think she flashed it. And I I personally have never seen a more like just impressive dis display of slab and technical slab climbing ability, like especially in a comp standpoint. And just like, I don't know, you guys should Joe check it out if you haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:57

But that slab in question, she flashed it, but she flashed it in three minutes or something crazy like that. Like her one attempt took up her entire, and it was like lock in right now, and then she did it. It was super sick.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:08

Yeah, just it was like she just sorted it on the go, and it looked really powerful and super technical, a lot of really complex body positions, like weird ways of using the holds, just like not easy in any sense. And it's cool to see that. I love seeing like the individual climbs where someone's just kind of in the zone and just kind of like destroying it. And I that one kind of was like that was that was really, really rad. So her tenacity is next level.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:39

I it's so cool to watch for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:42

I don't want to skip forward and take anything away from her amazing competition career that is probably just getting started, but I can't help but look at her style and think about what she would be like outdoors. And I'm curious when you guys see the way Yanya climbs in comps, you see the way Annie climbs in comps. Like if you just had to only watch those performances and then project how they might have success outdoors, do you think that one style will be more successful than another?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:10

Well, I mean, obviously, like if you look at Yanya, then you know, it's like she's a lot more well-rounded. I mean, you you could you could say, you know, like not to say that Annie Sanders isn't well-rounded compared to most climbers, you know, but you know, you look at 50 golds and just kind of the history, like I think it's fairly obvious at this point, but I mean we haven't seen Annie outside. Like, I I don't know. Like, I could throw out like a loose prediction of something, but like, yeah, I mean, I think we all know that on certain style of outdoor climbing, she would be among the best. And and then there would be other aspects of it where it's it's kind of open for better understanding, you know, what what could be there, you know. I don't know. Like I you don't want to like throw somebody under the bus before they have a chance to kind of prove themselves on certain things, you know. I think, yeah, there's question marks. But that that was the case too, even with Yanya before she started doing more outdoor stuff, is there were question marks about whether she was gonna dig into that that mental part of the process, you know, um that we saw kind of in in bibliography.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:17

Um and to her own admission, like that was really difficult for her to do. Like you can have the physicality, but you know, it it's a different thing to lock in on a project in that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

Yeah, I I don't doubt that if Annie Sanders wanted to be a very accomplished, capable, and top-end, you know, outdoor climber that she would be able to achieve that. You know, we've seen we've just seen too many of those really capable comp climbers transition at this point to doubt that.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:49

Oh, and I actually meant it the other way. I don't want to uh Annie is probably well, she'll excel at anything she tries to do. I guess when I watched Annie, I remember watching her in the USAC or the Nationals like a while ago, and watching her style and just thinking, gosh, she looks almost old school. It was very static, very, very tenacious, too, very like find that body position, fight for it, fight for it, and then get it done versus kind of like I'm gonna huck myself, catch my momentum. And and not that there's anything wrong with that style either. I was just I felt like she almost seemed like a throwback to an older style. And I and so it just makes me wonder does that lead to more success outdoors? Maybe not. I I don't really know.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:31

It's maybe a little more similar to like Laura Rogora like style. Yes, like obviously there's differences, but maybe a little bit more. And I mean, we've seen what what what she's done outside, like everything still still just like destroying shit like outdoors.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:45

So I feel like when you're like that much of a freak on the World Cup circuit, like you'll bend outdoor climbing to your style, anyways. So you'll just excel on things that people wouldn't expect you to excel on just because you'll find your own way to do it. That's the beauty of outdoor climbing, I feel like.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:01

Yeah, I mean, her her ability to even bend a lot of these World Cup boulders to her will in a field of play where they're actively trying to keep people from doing that. And then you take somebody like that outside where there's crystals and divots and intermediates and stuff, and it's like they're gonna get through. They're gonna get through for sure. Well said.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:27

Okay, you guys, I think we're gonna skip our quote unquote ethics corner because Allison provided us with amazing fodder again with the World Cup uh scoring stuff. So unless you unless any of you guys had a very burning desire to talk about deep fakes, drugs, or snake dykes, I say that sounds so weird. Uh I say we uh keep moving on to the bonus questions and call it a day. What do you guys think? Sounds good.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:58

Rock and roll to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:02

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