Board Talk #13 with Brian Squire — Repeating The TB2’s Hardest Climb, How To Keep Your Feet On, and Why V13 Should Be The Hardest Board Grade

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I think board grading should be stiff. Like I think boards should be hard, and like that, like you suck try harder mentality is like it's training, you know? Like climbing your first V15 indoors would just kind of feel like a I don't know. Like I feel like that shouldn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Welcome to the Test Piece Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Brian Squire. Welcome to Board Talk. How you doing, man?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Thank you. I'm doing good. I'm super psyched to be on here.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Yeah, good to have you on. I was gonna say your background looks familiar, but I think you're in a different room of this house that has seen many a test piece podcast. Where are you staying right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:20

I'm uh Noah Wheeler's house. It was uh he lives with Quinn Spatifora, one of the tension guys, so yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

I can't believe you almost didn't say Quin Spaphora. Quinn's been on board talk. He's he may not be quite as big a name as Noah, but he's still Quinn Spadafora.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Yeah, he's the one who sets all the board lord boulders. He's the forerunner.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Yeah, how's his thumb doing? Is he is he back to his old self? He's not here right now, so I haven't seen him. Well, Noah seems to be on one. Um, I I do want to see him back on the boards, but it's uh it's alpine season. Is that why you're visiting?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Yeah, yeah, we had to make a little quick trip out to Colorado just getting too hot in Salt Lake, so had some stuff I want to do out here in Colorado and made a trip out of it. I gotta ask, what do you have your eye on? Uh big one's box therapy. I really want to do that one. I went out there yesterday for the first time, checked it out, it's super cool. Uh how's the hike? It's brutal. I mean, it's everybody says it's like six or seven miles. That's maybe like a little uphill, but generally pretty pretty flat. And like it's definitely like five percent uphill the whole way. So you just chug and like we brought pads out, so I don't know. I was pretty cooked by the like two hours in.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Dude, two hours? That's brutal. Um, okay. I don't know if you saw some of that stuff on Yanya Climbing bibliography, but they there was talk about like people using an e-bike, like a different way to access. Is there any like shortcut you can take? And does that hurt the grade?

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Not really. I mean, it's just it's just straight back. Like it's in wild basin, so there's a lot of climbing that's within the first mile or two miles. And then you just there's nothing between wild basin and box therapy. So you just walk past all that, and then five miles later, all of a sudden, box is like out in the middle of the meadow.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

All right. I I know box therapy looks cool, like, but have you done everything else that you want to in color? Like, how are you that psyched on doing the hike and focusing on that one?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

I was just kind of psyched on having like a like adventure boulder. I feel like a lot of the boulders I've been at recently have been pretty roadside, or like you can just they're relatively easy to try, and that's cool too. Like those boulders have a special place, but it's also really cool to have like a full adventure and experience that is a part of the projecting process and not just the send. So, you know, it's like it's another thing to think about is how do I get pads out there? Like, how do I get there and not be totally wrecked and still climb v-15?

SPEAKER_02 3:45

Dude, I feel like color, yes, Colorado has some roadside boulders, but in general, like you gotta hike. Like I we always joked about in I was in San Francisco for a long time, and we felt like we had the same distance to boulders in the sense that we had to drive really far, and then boulders would be roadsite, but in Colorado, you don't drive very far, and then you have to hike really far. And so it's like the same thing. But I was gonna say I'd rather drive, but honestly, the hiking like makes you fit, gets you outside with the boys. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

I love the hiking, honestly. That people hate on it, but there's something nice about like going past all the tourists with a big pad on your back, and you just feel like such a beast, and like you get all the questions of like, what are those mats on your back? And you gotta come up with a good answer.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Yeah, what we we used to say in Yosemite, I think my buddy Josh Newman came up with this one. It was like their uh protections against bears, and we had like the stick brush to brush the bear's teeth. I'm sure he didn't actually come up with it, but I'm still happy to shout him out. Um, but I always thought that was hilarious because people like totally believed it. Like they because I mean, what else would they believe?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Like Yeah, it's so funny. That like we we say bear shields. We did uh we're like training firefighters right now. During COVID, we used to say that they're like giant COVID shields.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Uh yes, the the tourists. Um, I feel like something that's funny about going out and doing that stuff. I think I really like climbing. I could totally be like a skier. Uh, any sport that like takes you outside to participate. I feel like when I'm in the mountains walking past people who are just like taking a picture of themselves on the trail, I somehow like belong there. Like, no, no, like I'm the one that's utilizing nature. Like you're just getting your picture taken here, dude.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

I know. I know. I thought about that too, because like technically we're tourists in the same way that everybody else who is visiting the park is tourists, but like we just interact with the park in such a different way that it doesn't feel like we're tourists. Like we feel like we not like belong there more, but you know, like we have we actually have a purpose of being there rather than just hiking.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Yeah, I'm sure someone else could totally just rip on us and make fun of that statement. Like it's like you guys are just like crawling up some pebbles. Like, why are you doing that? Like making making a mess too, but yeah, good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Every everybody's the most important in their own world.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

So well, uh yeah, cool to add your name to the list of people just going through the the wheeler spadaphora house that is just crushing lately. Uh so you're you are normally out of Salt Lake, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Yeah, totally. Yeah, I live in Salt Lake full time, just out here for the week.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Well, I gotta say, you guys do have a good board scene. The front has is that where you normally climb? Is it the front?

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Or what's your Yeah, the front's the main one I go to.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

It's got the mega early TB2 spray that you set a bunch of bangers on that are really stiff and give me trouble. Is that the one?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

That's the one. Yeah, I think we were the first gym in the country to get the like full 12 by 12 spray. Have you guys have you ever climbed on a mirror? Have you been on a mirror much? Yeah, the bouldering project has a mirror, so I climb there sometimes, but I haven't been in a while. Oh yeah, I forgot.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Salt Lake City has like maybe like 15 gyms that are really good, all right next to each other. Kind of cool. Yeah, we're pretty spoiled. Yeah, so Brian, you are very accomplished outdoors. You're in Colorado, you're looking at doing box therapy. I know you've climbed up to V16, but this is board talk, dude. This is board talk. And uh if people will remember the last episode where Ben Burkhalter was on, he kind of had some nice things to say about you. I don't know if you remember. Do you have do you have any nice things to say about Ben, or do you want to make fun of him? Either way, it's good.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

I can say a million nice things about Ben. Yeah, Ben, I used to climb at cats in Colorado with like OG Spraywall Gym, the Daniel Woods, and also the Colorado guys climbed in. And like Ben was climbing there for a long time and he was in college in Colorado. And I like he was probably one of the most inspiring people to climb with. Like his ability to full crimp and just I mean, he was doing the most effed up stuff I've ever seen on the

Brian’s Approach To Learning From Other Climbers

SPEAKER_00 7:35

on the wall.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

Yeah, man, that guy can can crimp. Actually, yeah, uh, that reminds me, we were gonna talk about this idea of trying to mimic uh some of the top climbers' special superhuman abilities and Ben Burke's ability to full cramp on small edges. I mean, there are some other people at Cats who've done that. Maybe you've heard Daniel Woods. He seems to be able to kind of own holds. But uh, I just like that idea that you had around bringing in other styles that you see or admiring other climbers. And I feel like I'm saying this wrong, but uh that was a topic I was super excited to get into.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Totally. Yeah, that's like I've I've never had a really regimented training routine, at least since I like left my climbing team when I was like 15. But uh yeah, I think the way that I've always approached climbing is through looking at other people who I like aspire to be like. Or like I look at Adam Andra, for example, and like he's a really good climber and he has his weaknesses and he has his strengths, but like I think one of his strengths is just being able to climb efficiently. And like that's something I really aspire to be. Like, and if you can kind of just like pinpoint aspects of climbers that are really talented and just notice what they're really good at and try to emulate that in your own climbing, you're always just like on this path of growth and learning. And I think that's a really good way to never plateau.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Okay, I would just totally agree with that's it's also fun. Like, I feel like when you look at climber and you admire them, it's because there's something that they're doing that is excellent and beautiful and you can learn from. But how do you actually do that? Like when you think of Adamandra being efficient, it's not nebulous, but in some ways it's it's hard to like pin down what that means. Like, I'm gonna put you on the spot and ask you for like an example of how you would try to mimic Adam Andra's efficiency in your goal climbing.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

I think a lot of it is re-watching videos that you've watched before. So, like if you're watching a video of Andra, like the first time you watch it, you're kind of just watching it for the climb and you're watching it for the send, and just like you don't really think too much about it, and maybe there's something that stands out. But like there's so many levels to how good Andra is and stuff like efficiency and like breathing and just like his mental preparation. And you don't necessarily pick up on all of that the first time you watch the video. And so if you keep watching it like and really focus in on certain elements, then eventually you can kind of pick out specific things that he does. And when you're climbing and training, like really consciously thinking about that. It's really hard at first. Like breathing is such a hard thing to learn with climbing because at first you have to just do it so consciously, and like you're in like a really tight position, and all of a sudden you're like, you have to breathe or else you're gonna get off the wall. Like that's such a hard thing to do. But eventually you do it enough times and it becomes subconscious.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Man, I wish I had uh modulous efficiency. I there's something about efficiency and technique that are it's like I almost want to say they're the same thing, but they're not. Like it's because it's like if you think about what it is to do a hard move, it's to do the hardest move possible in the easiest way possible, right? Like you don't make moves hard, but then you could say sometimes you do the move before in a harder way to set your up for it to be easier the next time. And there's like there's just there's levels to it, man.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

There's levels. Yeah. And you it goes so deep too, because you can look at every single climber and pinpoint like a specific thing. Like Nathaniel Coleman, for example, every time he falls, he ends up like smiling, which is like more of a mental thing. But just being able to smile every time you fall, even if you're pissed off, like mentally, that just triggers something in your brain that like says you're having fun, even if you're not, and like that's really beneficial. Or like just trying to climb in a different style is so beneficial. And you can just like you keep on doing it, and every time if you pull on the wall with some sort of intention of doing something different, and it's not necessarily trying to send, you're just like trying to be a little bit better in this certain aspect, then you just like constantly grow.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Does Nathaniel Coleman ever not smile? That is the question. Um I was thinking so it's funny because before we hopped on, I was thinking about this topic, and I feel like it automatically makes me want to ask you if you could take all the best skills of all the climbers, like who would it be? And you would make some like transformer optimus prime climber because you're taking like Alamondra's efficiency and maybe either Daniel Woods' ISO of hold or Ben Burke's crimping ability. And then I was thinking, like, what about like execution? Um and I you know who I thought of was I I just as you were saying, I was like, maybe Nathaniel Coleman, that guy at comps at least.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Jeez. Nathaniel's really good at it. Um, one of the I climb with Tanner Bauer a lot. Um, he used to live in Salt Lake, and he is maybe the best person at execution I've ever seen. Like he just has this ability to once he does all the moves on it and he like decides in his brain that he wants to do the climb, he just like will try as hard as he can and do it. And it's so impressive. Like it's probably my biggest weakness in climbing is execution. Like I feel like I'm really good at doing individual moves and like getting really close on boulders, but actually being able to do that last five percent of sending is like probably the hardest part sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Yeah, I was talking with my buddy about this. It sounds ridiculous, but uh we were golfing and uh golfing is this really weird sport where you can't overpower it. Like, and I was trying to tell him that one of my weaknesses in climbing is that my go-to is to like overpower a move. Like if I if I'm struggling to like execute, I'll be like, oh, I'll just try, I'll crimp this even harder. And when you're trying something at your limit, like that's not a good strategy to be like, I will waste even more energy to make sure this move goes perfectly. Like, and it's yeah, the the whole like execution versus overpowering and what that means to like show up in that moment is I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

I don't have it figured out, that's for sure. It's hard. I mean, that's like there's so many levels to climbing that you can dive into, and it's hard to do everything at once. So if you just focus on like one thing every time, um, eventually it just compounds, and like it's some of the things that you were really focusing on before are now just you do it innately.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Yeah, I do think that's actually one of the tricks too, is you can't focus on everything. Like when you pull on, at least that's how I do it. I I often have one thing that I try to do better. Because if you if your mind is trying to do a million things at once, it just doesn't work. And that's also my trick for how I don't get scared when things get tall or whatever, is if you just really focus on the beta, like you just can't be scared and focusing on beta at the same time. Like we're very narrow in how we actually climb, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

And like hopefully beta becomes something that you don't have to think about that much. Like, unless it's a new project or if it's Noah Wheeler on Creature the Black Lagoon, like you don't have to think about beta. But um yeah, like if you like, for example, recently I've been trying this boulder in Solid called Sosa, and my crux is kind of doing everything very precisely. Like it's really hard to be precise on all these moves because there's like certain crystals that you have to grab, and like one of the last moves, you have to grab this slot crimp, and it's really accurate and hard to hit right from the ground. But instead of just like really thinking about those specific elements, like if you think about pulling on with the intention of climbing like faster, or like you really focus on your breathing that attempt, um it takes a little bit of pressure away from the send. And I I mean I haven't sent it yet, so maybe this is just bad advice. But um I think it like it does help because I mean now I've like slowly whittle down what is actually helpful and what's not helpful to eventually become like the perfect rock climber on that thing.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

So Sosa's that V16 roof in Salt Lake that Zach put up. Something I was wondering about this, this is just again totally out there, random question, but you do a big jump like that. It the stand is seems to be the crux from the bottom as well, which is like a stab to a slot that you cut on. And it looks like that was pretty dug out. Like, do you think that people are gonna just keep like digging out more and eroding it? It gets kind of easier. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

It's so it originally there was a rock when Zach did it. There was a rock that made it where you had to pick your feet up quite a lot more. And I do think it was like maybe half a grade harder, just like the sand by itself when he did it. But also, even still, you can dangle that hold and like just kind of curl your feet up. I don't know, the move on its own isn't really that hard. It's mostly just like for me at least, it's hitting the slot right. And if I hit the slot right, then like that move feels pretty easy because it's not you no longer have to be like fully up in your arm on it. Like before you had to be like super locked off and just like high on the hold, and now you can kind of dangle it and be lower on it. And I do think people you can still dig out, it would be a lot of work, but you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

I mean, people put a lot of work into making those things, you know, possible to start, which I'm totally for. Like, uh don't don't this is not me putting any negative connotation on it. I'm just curious, it's just I don't know, just in interesting to hear from someone who's on it where I like I saw that and I was like, huh, I wonder if this is gonna change because dude, climbs do change over the years. Like like karma, you know, like the whole bottom thing has been kind of trampled and dug out, like it's higher up than it used to be. Just all these little things, like as much as we like to think that rock climbs are completely the same for decades, like they're not, like they change.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

And most of the time they change for the harder. Like I think sleepwalker is an anomaly just because the rock is kind of soft and like the it gets better, but like most of the time the rock just gets more polished, especially on granite. Like those holes just become really slippery over time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Bummer. But that's just it's just reality. I feel like maybe like this is uh it's a good segue into boards. Like we I feel like we covet the comparability too much. It's like this is the exact same problem that Fred and Nicole did, and it's like, who cares? Like, just have your fun on it. Like, and besides, it was probably a different temperature or whatever. And we do that on boards for sure, where it's like, this is the same layout, like your TB2 is my TB2, but it's kind of not. It's kind of not, yeah. It's always different. Ben Burke said that he thought that the TB2 spray was pretty polished or heavily used at your location. Do you do you think the same thing?

SPEAKER_00 18:03

I'll second that for sure. I I mean, like I said, it was one of the first TB2s in the country, and they moved locations of it one time, and I don't think the holds ever got cleaned. Um, so besides the like normal amount of brushing that you do, the holds have never been power washed or anything, they've never been taken off. Yeah, and it just gets used so much. Like there's always people on that board.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

But dude, you did how soon is now the second ascent of Hamish MacArthur's V15 from that amazing board lords uh episode. And do you think yours is more polished? Well, actually, I won't make you uh that that's not a fair question. Maybe we should just say, good job. Good job. Thank you. Uh so you are only the second person to do what seems to be the world's first V15 on boards. I feel like in your caption, you're like a little skeptical.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

It seems like it went easy for you, is really what happened. Yeah, sort of. I mean, I don't know. I have a weird take with board grades, like, I don't know, maybe it's a little bit. I I grew up on a board that we just the hardest grade was like V11 or so. And like anything that was above V11 was just like an open project, and it just like probably never got done. It was just too hard. And like I growing up, like I would was really inspired by the like British board climbing scene and everything, and like climbing on the uh the schoolroom wall where the hardest boulder is like perky pinky and it's like v13. And so like I always kind of grew up with this notion that v13 is like the ceiling of board climbing. Um, and then like the moon board comes out and it's like black beauty is like the hardest boulder on the moon board. And so I like I think now we're at a point where grades are going beyond V13 pretty consistently. Like there is a lot of V14s on the boards now, and V15 hasn't quite been tapped in yet. But like, I don't know. I think my take with board grading is just that it's such a binary type of rock climbing where if you have the physical capability of doing it, typically you can do it pretty quickly. And if it just is too hard for you, it just feels impossible. And there's not a ton of nuance a lot of the times. And so it's really hard to grade just like such binary movement like that, because most of the time it just like it feels not that bad when you do it. And like I think board grading should be stiff. Like I think boards should be hard, and like that, like you suck try harder mentality is like it's training, you know. Like, I'm not I'm not here to climb my first like climbing your first V15 indoors would just kind of feel like uh I don't know, like that feel like that shouldn't happen.

unknown 20:34

I like that.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

I'm sure, dude. Uh if it hasn't happened, it it hasn't happened yet. I I guess that's obvious, but that will happen very soon. Like that is like there is someone listening, there is a kid listening right now who is probably he's 13 or she's 13, they're climbing V13 on the boards and they don't have a driver's license, and they're gonna do uh how soon is now before I don't know, pick your pick your HC. Uh yeah, it is funny how we kind of have those limits on boards because I was on a spray walk before I don't know, before the moon board, before all these like standardized boards, and I feel like we kind of just thought it would be like V11, like whatever we did. But it'd be hard because it's like a one move V11. A one move V11 or maybe a two move is nails, you know, like that. I don't know if people realize that you know a lot of the like harder climbs, uh you know, even in the V15 and up range, it doesn't mean that there's a V15 move on there. It means that doing the climb gets that grip, and that's why sometimes you'll see a climb that is 8B or you know, V13 or V14. And it's not that it's harder, but sometimes it's harder in the sense that just doing that move is such a low percentage move, like and it can become more binary, where it's like, can you just do it? Because if you can just do it, you'll do it. Uh, which is uh is one of the differences between indoor climbing and outdoor climbing, though.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Totally. Yeah, and I think that. Like outdoor climbing, it becomes it gets to a point where it does get binary. Like, can you do the moves or can you not? But there's so many other factors that add to the difficulty of a boulder. Like, I don't know, it's like a whole different discussion of like how do you grade boulders? Like, is it just based on the pure difficulty of the moves, or like do the conditions have a play in it? Does like the approach have a play in it? You know, and you could go into depth on that, so we won't do that. But um, yeah, I just think that like board climbing is so accessible, and that's really cool because like growing up, like there was like the hardest boulder that we had was like one V14 in the Northeast. And then like if anybody has attention board too, they can climb up the V15. And like just having that accessibility and knowing what's possible is really cool. But yeah, anyways, like I feel like I'm losing track right now.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

But well, uh first of all, I just want to ask what the V14 is uh that was up in the northeast back then.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Is it was it nuclear war war or was it um what was um so we had one called A Man Escaped. Uh and then there was one that was called Book of Shadows. They were both in this area called Bradley, which unfortunately is closed now. Um yeah, is that closed for good, dude? Please tell me that's closed. Um it's tentatively closed for good. The it's owned by the water department of the town of Connecticut, and at least this is what I've heard is that the owners of the water department changed, and the new guy just like doesn't want climbers there. Um doesn't he know that we're not just normal tourists?

SPEAKER_02 23:30

We're out there doing important things. We're brushing bears' teeth. We got Les out there.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Oh they let all the hunters out there still.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Dude, see, that's my beef with some of uh sometimes when we get closures, like there's this place called Cave Rock up in Lake Tahoe that I climbed out a bunch as a little kid, and it's like a sacred Native American site, but then I think it's still open, but not open to climbers, and it busts me out. Yeah, but we we love we love nature, we grab nature. I like yeah, okay, okay. A sidetrack. Okay, so there is yeah, let's not get into the grading of what grading should represent. Um that that's just that's a tricky one. Been working on that for my whole life. Um so with indoor boulders being more binary, I think one of the problems that people have, and I have this too, going from boards to outdoors, is that it almost like teaches me that the only way I can do a boulder is by trying harder, and either I can do it or I can't kind of like right away. And sometimes I like lose my effort towards subtlety. Like I'm just like, no, just like pull, like just jump harder, jump higher. And there are climbs outdoors that are like that, but that's not really your first tool that you should bring out of your toolkit when you're trying something super hard for you.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah, I I've always looked at it as like gym or board climbing is like you build like the kind of prerequisite strength um to do the boulders outside. And then by climbing outside, you learn the nuance of everything. And that doesn't mean you just go out there and you climb a V13 and like all of a sudden you're like a really good technical outdoor climber. Like you have to build up your base. Um, like I think that's one thing that's kind of lost in today's era of rock climbing is building up your pyramid. Um, like I don't know how many V13 or V14s I've done total, but like quite a lot more than the amount of V15s and V16s I've done. And so just I have this base of like diverse climbing that adds to my ability as a climber. That's not just board climbing, you know, it's like I have the requisite board strength, but then I can like tap into the technical ability when I go outside.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Yeah, this is one of the things that's interesting about board climbing, though, is that when you do see someone, maybe they climb V14 or V15 before going outdoors, it there's no guarantee that they will go outdoors and climb hard. But you think to yourself, well, like you did check that box. Like you you definitely can uh physically climb very hard. Although there's something about like subtlety and technique that is is also not uh it's not technique, uh, sometimes gets confused with just, hey, if you put your foot here, you have good technique, or like twist your body like this, but there's like a a strength to to technique and the application of subtle movement, and it makes me think of something uh Burke was talking about where Brian, you're really good at keeping weight on your feet on bad footholds, on steep, on dynamic moves. And while I'm sure, like, you know, just there's a thought process through there of how you do it, there's like a technique also requires like technical strength. I don't know, I'm not saying that well at all, but do you know what I mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 26:45

No, I totally do. And honestly, I'm gonna be glazing Nathaniel Coleman this episode, but he's so good at learning movement. Um, and that's like a whole nother skill in itself. And like if you can learn as much from the ground as possible, and like you pull on the ground once and you can kind of feel where the position is wrong, and you can immediately know what you need to do. Like, that's a whole technique in itself that's really good for outdoor climbing. Like just being able to apply the like grandeur of knowledge that you have around climbing is super helpful.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

Okay, I want to talk more about you putting weight on your feet so well because it's something that people don't do enough of, uh, especially on boards. But I'm gonna glaze Nathaniel one time too. And I'm gonna shout actually, no, I'm gonna no, instead of doing that, I'm gonna talk my book and say that the first episode I interviewed, me and Tim Kang interviewed Nathaniel Coleman on. I think it was not long after he had done so well in the Olympics. He talked about basically I'm gonna butcher it, but it was something about how when he falls off, like in a comp round, he like doesn't get upset, he doesn't like do much thinking because he said something along the lines of like, if you let too much emotion get in the way, you can't just have that intuition about what went wrong. So you can't correct it. And I thought that was like incredible, like this idea if you're just kind of quiet, like somehow that answer will come to you about what needed to be different. Well, and then there's the whole topic of actually being able to execute on what you know went wrong. But uh just that was my my last Nathaniel question.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

That's I probably totally like that. Like I think I've been doing a lot of like just trying to improve my like mental ability climbing recently. And a lot of the like research that I've done just talks about like three balances. You have like your subconscious, your conscious, and then your uh like your self-image. And so if you're your subconscious, if you trust your subconscious enough, like you know how good of a climber you are, and like you kind of know what to do intuitively. Um, and most of the time, like you want to be using your subconscious because like when you're consciously thinking about things, that takes so much energy and like you're you zap yourself so quickly. And like, like you said about execution, like the execution is hard, but then that comes from your self-image. Like if you are confident enough in your ability to do something, then you can most of the time just like do it and let your subconscious take over and you just do the move.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

That's interesting. It's this, it's almost like a ping pong between all this stuff because I was uh I was reading Katie Lamb's comments about her latest send, this like V15 FA in Yosemite, and she was talking about how how analytical she had gotten. You know, it's like you gotta put your foot here, you gotta like get your, you know, you gotta get this crystal. But then she said that she like unlearned a move on accident or like dropped a move, and that she had like lost that intuition, just that kind of like body awareness. It's so strange because like I really like climbing intuitively. Like I think it's really fun to just like you don't know why you're putting your foot flagged that you just kind of like feel it. Yeah, but then sometimes to get better, you need to like take a step back and do something that almost maybe feels different or uncomfortable, but it's actually like a key, and then like be able to like jump between those again, levels, yeah. Levels, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Yeah, it's it's it's like why your flash go sometimes is way better than like the subsequent goes, because you just you intuitively do the moves in the way that you know is easier for you. And then your subsequent goes, you try to emulate what you did on your flash go. And it like because you're thinking too much, it's way harder to do. Like that happened to be on box therapy, for example. Like my bot my flash go on box was like actually really good. And then I spent like five goes just like kind of trying to relearn like what I did until I could do it again.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Damn, I've had that happen way too many times. It's really frustrating, it's it's not fun. Uh it's also cool when you just pull out some kind of weird move that works in in like a random moment. Like I have two that come to mind where I was doing this thing called diesel power in Yosemite, and it has this like really big span, and then you have to yeah, it's amazing though. At that time, I just really cool. I do wish like it wasn't in a pit. Like, if it wasn't in a pit, it would be like maybe one of the like highest-rated boulders in the world.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Because like I would go even as far to say that it's in a swamp.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

Yeah, that's true. That's true. Um, so you know how you get like super stretched out, uh, or at least I do, and I do, I have like about a six-foot wingspan. So like if I'm stretched out, I feel like pretty pre-stretched position. And you have to come into like a side pole. And uh, I had either fallen there, or maybe no, maybe I had never done the big move to get stretched out. And so then I'm all stretched out. I had to come in and I did this little like pixie kick with my leg to like undo the momentum of coming in. I don't know how to describe it. Like, so it's like it gave me a little pause to like settle into that handhold, but I had no idea what I was doing. I was just like in desperation mode, and that's what my body did. And I was like, good job, body, like, good job, intuition.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

It's such a cool feeling, it's so fun.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Okay, Brent, back to boards, back to boards. Okay. Um, so on that topic of uh you know

How Is Brian Able To Keep His Feet On So Well?

SPEAKER_02 32:02

keeping your feet on, one of the reasons why I brought it up is that when uh you're one of the top board climbers in the world right now, and a lot of the board climbers that we see on these V14 and up, honestly including Noah, sorry, Noah, uh, there's a lot of like jumping and latching. And that is part of what makes board climbing hard. Uh it's it's crazy to say this, but the truth is, is a lot of those holds are pretty juggy if you're a V15 climber. Um and so as a result, a lot of the the difficulty beg it comes from giant moves and kind of like you know, contact strength. Uh but Brian, you you keep your feet on more than most. Uh you look different than some of the other names I think of that are often younger and really dynamic. Um and so yeah, like what do you like? Is that something you try to do? Is that just your style, your superpower? Like, tell me more about your ability to keep your feet on on bad footholds when it gets steep and hard.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Well, first of all, thank you. I appreciate it. Um, I I do think it is sort of my superpower. Like, and not because I like wanted to make it my superpower, it just kind of happened that way. Like the wall I grew up on that I was talking about, like, we only went up to V11 was like a 55 to 60 degree wall that was only on like we had a bunch of those like wood beastmaker holds. Um, and so like those holds are just so bad and like not textured that you kind of have to keep your feet on, like you can't cut feet on them. So it's like the OG like British style of like basement board climbing, where if you cut feet, you're either gonna dab or you just can't hold on to the holds because they're that bad. So a lot of it I think is like just what I've been inspired by. Um, like they're the British climbers are so good at doing that. Like David Fitzgerald is so strong in that aspect, like Aiden Roberts is so strong in that way. And so I always try to emulate that as a kid. And then it also just like when you're climbing well, it just feels good. It feels more fun. And like for me, I'm not nearly as good at the jump and latch style that like Adam and Noah are really good at. Um, like I can't do half the bowlers that they do just because they can like Noah can generate power from like such a crazy bunch position. Um, and like I just can't even fathom doing some of that stuff. Um, but like for him, that feels really good. And like that's like the flow state for him and rock climbing. But for me, if I can do something that like feels like I'm moving really well and I feel like all in tune to my body and everything stays on the wall, and I feel like engaged in my core, engaged in my back, like all these things. Like, that's just how I like to climb. And so it's just like I I want to climb well.

Support From Patreon

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who helped make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else. And those episodes are ad-free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay, back to the pod. Whenever my feet cut and I can hold the move, that this isn't necessarily just on the boards, but uh on really any climb, I often think to myself, sure you can do that on this V9 or even this V11, but could be a V7. And sure you can hold that hold. But what if you had to keep your feet on, like, because that's uh that's always going to be a harder boulder, and you just gotta think that the hardest boulders in the world, like whatever the next, you know, V20 is or whatever we do that, it seems unlikely to me that it's going to be a climb where you can cut feet. Like I just like uh climbing at its absolute limit should require every little part of our body to the maximum ability. And so it's just something that we actually do. I I have a my buddy Keith, uh, he I mean he is great at keeping his feet on, but it's something that we kind of play this game on where I'll keep my feet on and he'll be like, oh, I gotta keep my feet on this uh move too. And sometimes it's like a fun way to make a boulder that you've already done like harder too. You know, can you keep your feet on?

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Totally. It's such a good training tool, too. Like, if I don't know, we were joking the other day that like if Adam and Noah try to do every boulder that they do by like cutting feet on every move, like I'll try to do them by keeping my feet on for every move or vice versa. So yeah, and it's like like I said, like it's uh everybody has their own superpower, and you need to tap into that superpower to be a good climber. Like it there's no sense in just trying to be the most well-rounded in every aspect of climbing. Like having your superpower is something that you totally should lean into. Um, and if I can like keep my feet on more than most people can, then like that gives me a different set of moves that I can do that some other people maybe can't do. Just made me think of Adam.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

This is Adam Shahar we're talking about, who is sleeping on the ground in the apartment you're in right now, not long ago, on uh Jade where he cut on that uh the jade mood. I was like, Are you kidding me, dude?

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Like that's unfathomable to me.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Yeah. Um, I mean, he didn't do it, so maybe you know, had he kept his phone, but I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if he but I don't know, maybe he did go back and do it, but it was clear he could do it with cutting his feet. So that's uh that's incredible. Yeah, uh it's actually something that I really appreciate about the TB2 compared to a lot of the other uh boards, uh standardized boards, is that there's bad feet. Um, and I also think this is one of the reasons why it's fun to kick something like the kilter all the way down to like 60, where like all of a sudden those juggy feet aren't juggy because it's 60 degrees. Uh and there's something to be said for making sure that when you climb on the boards, you're not just doing the kind of moon board hand foot match where each foothold is a jug. I mean, it's a style. I don't want to say there's anything negative about, but if you only do that, you're definitely leaving a big part of climbing on the table.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

Yeah, totally. I definitely agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Well, do you have any tips for how we can uh if we were to emulate Brian's ability to keep your feet on? Like, you know, what what do you think when you come up on like a slopey bad foot and you want to keep your foot on, like, yeah, how do you like how do you do it?

SPEAKER_00 38:17

I I will say that I think my ability to keep my feet on on like non-im-cut feet uh leaves a lot on the table. Like I think that's probably my biggest area of improvement in that in that style of climbing. But I mean, I think the best drill you can do is just like if you do a climb where you cut feet on, just try to keep your foot on. And like even if you don't keep your foot on the whole way, it slows down the move enough to where if you do cut, that cut is way more controlled than it would be if you're just jumping for it. And it's just like a good practice, you know. Like, I think repeating climbs is such a valuable thing to do in your training. And like if you're repeating it with the intention of trying to keep your feet on the holds every time, then like you're just gonna get better at it. Like it's there's no way around that. And there's specif there's specific things that I do that are like very technical components of trying to keep your feet on. Um, like I think of it as like a pendulum motion. So like essentially if you're going from point A to point B, and this is like sort of like a comp climbing skill where when you're doing a dyno, you want your hips to come really far away from the wall and then like slingshot in towards the wall so that when you're land at the ending position, you're like really close to the wall. And that movement pattern is totally translatable to every move you do in rock climbing. Um, like if you you want your hips to end close to the wall at every move that you do. And like I think that's pretty much without exception. And so if essentially you if you take the hardest part of the move being like going to the hold and like holding the swing, if you sag a little bit more and like pull yourself in as close as you can, then you have way more time over that foot to engage. And you just like it, the move becomes easier because you're closer to the wall.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Yeah. The it makes me think of Adam Andres' little statement when I talked to him something like pulling on and being in a position is overrated, and the movement between positions is underrated. It's like technique is like an infinite amount of frames between each position. Uh I'm gonna use like a uh I'm I'm gonna point towards this podcast I listened to that was talking about Brazilian jujitsu, which I know nothing about. But like this idea is that like when you're a beginner, you're like, oh, it's like this is side mount. Um, and how do I get to full mount or something? And if I'm using these words incorrectly, forgive me, I'm even worse at uh BJJ than golf. Uh but just this idea that like if you're a beginner, you see like two steps or something. You're like, okay, you go here, maybe you put your hand here, and you, you know, like, or then finish here. But in some ways, the more expert you are, there's like 10,000 little steps or an infinite amount. And so when I think about keeping my foot on on a dynamic move, it's like, okay, so you're like jumping to a hold. Um, but uh you could just press really hard at the beginning and jump, or you could try to be putting weight consistently through that foot the entire time. And like I'm not saying it works every time, but like you can imagine that there is a lot more times to put weight on your foot than the generation and the ending. There's an infinite, but like how you do that, I'm I'm not sure. Good luck.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

It's hard, it's really hard. And it's like a lot of the times it is easier to just jump and cut your feet. And like if you have that physical capacity, then by all means go for it. But like, I just yeah, it's sometimes moves are just way harder if you jump and latch. And if you can slow that move down as much as you can, then it just gives you so much more strength.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Just to make it really difficult for people to try to put this into practice, I wanted to emphasize something that you said where even if you don't keep your foot on, there's lots of moves out there that I've done where trying to keep your foot on as long as possible was really important. Like you know it's gonna cut, but that doesn't give you license to like let it cut. It's about keeping it on as long. But then there's also moves I've done where you actually want to like almost jump away from the wall and end up in like a plum like position to limit your swing. And so you actually want to like have your foot cut early. And I'm just trying to make things really difficult for people who are trying to enact this.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Totally. It's like this is the reason why people start the define gravity by campassing because it like limits the swing. If you're starting with your foot on the wall down low, your swing so much more by the time you hit that hole. But if you start campusing, your feet like your body's directly below you, and so you just like you can limit the swing so much more. Um, so it's like it's keeping your feet on is never the only option. You know, there's so many like climbing's so diverse that you can do pretty much whatever suits your strength. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Well, that's why it's cool seeing you climb these hardboard climbs, and I I get to directly compare them to some of the other people who are climbing them on Instagram, and you do it your way and they do it their way. And it's like, is one right? Is one wrong? It's like, well, that's how they got up it. And there's probably something to be learned from from both people and and how they decide to solve those moves.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Right. And it's like it's leaning into your strength, but also being inspired by what you can't do. Like, I'm very inspired by Adam and Noah because I can't do half the stuff that they do on the boards, and so like I have quite a few boulders that Noah set on the spray layout that I haven't done yet. And like that's a really good practice for me, is just like trying to do these boulders that probably aren't that hard for him, but like for me, they feel the limit.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Yeah, I've got uh Will English is my boulder setting nemesis, or like the way he although he yeah he made a list for me. If you guys look in his uh his profile on the board app, like you will find like Josh's list. And what's funny is that because Will's such a good setter, he sets boulders that I just can't do, or I or I I struggled because they're very leggy and difficult for me. But then he also will set stuff that is his opposite, and then I'll do it really easily. And and there's some of those on that list where he's like, also I think you might like this one. It's just cool when someone it's cool when you get to that point where you understand what you're bad at and what you're good at, and you can kind of play around and have a fun day or uh uh like a training day or

Matt Fultz Claims Josh's Bounty On "Illusory Path"

SPEAKER_02 44:30

whatever, you know? Okay, let's talk about some of the the big happenings in boards this month. And maybe it wasn't the biggest, craziest month ever, but I saw something cool that I wanted to shout out, and that was Matt Foltz claiming a bounty that I set. So on Board Lord's a number, whatever, doesn't matter. Uh Sung Su was there, Zach All was there, and Alam Shahr was there. And they got through their first two normal boulders, and then uh they had a third one on the mirror layout called Illusory Path. And uh Will Englund had set that one and it looked hard. It was crimpy, it was pure, and it was at 50 degrees. Matt Foltz uh went and did it on his home wall at 40 degrees, and he kind of cheekily said that you know I hadn't specified the angle, and he and he's right, and I was very happy to have him claim the bounty on 40 because even at 40, 10 degrees less than what it was set at, he still called it V14. I would say it was probably in his style too. Um, so that bounty got claimed, and I set a new bounty on 50 degrees for $250. And it was just, I do this for fun because I just think it's fun to it's just fun, man. Like I don't know. Like I love seeing Matt do it, and I hope this inspires other people to push the boundaries of what's possible on a really hard boulder like that. But yeah, did you did you catch that video of Matt uh doing just a lowly V13, but kind of a famous one uh you know because of Board Lords?

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Yeah, it's cool. I think that's the first bounty boulder that's ever actually been done, or like a maybe the first bounty that's actually been distributed. So I think there should be more bounties on the boulder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there should be more bounties in board climbing. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Any any other uh boulder that you think is probably possible, but absolutely nails and really quality?

SPEAKER_00 46:25

There was a boulder on the Colin Duffy, Nathaniel Coleman Board Lords episode that was called with Teep. Um it's got like this crazy like jump across to the wood pinch. There's a stand that's been done at 55, which is the original angle, but the full line hasn't been done at 55. It's been done at 50 a couple times. Um, but that thing's like that thing snails.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

I do remember Colin getting really psyched and sticking that move like on the I guess on the stand. It was just fun watching him to actually talk about execution and mindset. He's not he's not bad. All those uh Olympians seem to know how to execute when it's in front of them. Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say that something that I I'm really psyched for Matt. Like, I and he told me that he thinks it goes at 50, but something I was thinking about is that with all these adjustable boards, like I don't I don't really like climbs having different angles. I feel like they get set at an angle, and you can train on lower angles to try to make that happen. But like it's like a different boulder almost. And and maybe if there's like you know, like a 20-degree gap or something, you're like, dude, this is just these are like different boulders. Um, but there's something I don't like about this practice of like being like, oh, it's like one grade harder or something like to me, they're they're boulders onto themselves. Like, let's just let them be, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

Yeah, I totally agree. And I'm totally guilty of this too. Like, I think that people have this idea that if they do a boulder five degrees steeper, then it automatically becomes a grade harder, which a lot of times just isn't true. Like, five degrees makes a big difference on some moves, and other moves it just doesn't make that much of a difference on. And like, I don't know. I would rather there be more boulders on the board. I'd rather more people set cool things than just doing the same boulder five degrees steeper. But it's cool, it's cool to see what's possible totally.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Yeah, like I'm not saying you shouldn't go and and climb it if you can and you are psyched to do it, but I just feel like we should let boulders be like be themselves. Like this is the the climb at this grade. And I had the experience where I climbed something, it was a classic. I'm gonna say it was evil kin. I'm not sure. I think it was on the mirror, um, and I think it was like V10 or something. I was like, cool, I was really psyched that maybe I did like 45 or 50. And then I was another day I came back and I was on the lower angle, and I was, you know, trying to do all the classics. I was like, oh, I did this climb, like, but now it's at a lower angle and it's a classic, and like I don't like I don't want to do it again. Like I did it, like I did it harder. Like I don't want to go back and do it again.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

I totally agree. I think the angle, like the adjustable angle is a really good tool, and I don't think it gets utilized as much as it should be. Like, I think the best way to utilize it, in my opinion, at least, is if you set a boulder at say 55 and you can't do it at 55, then you crank it back five degrees and you like start working it and do the moves at 50 to like kind of get the motions going, and then eventually come back and try to set it at the ascended at the original angle. But you know, I everybody wants to like have a send under their belt. So if they send it at 50, you're gonna lug it, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

I FA'd this at 20 degrees. Uh yeah, that what's interesting about working on something at a different angle is that it definitely does help you send, but it also shows you how freaking different movement is on different angles. Like I was trying, there's this thing uh that Will set called like by the sword, something sword and like V10 classic that for me is just like my nemesis. I just I'm like, I have no idea how to do this, and I've put it way back and climbed it maybe at like 25 or 30 instead of probably like 40 or 45. And I put it on the steeper one. I'm like, okay, that did help, but this is not the same problem.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

It's totally different.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Yeah, I uh I mean, is fun to get to try it, but I I and I I I know that you know Tension's trying to put up more c as many classics as they can. That's a a tool that they can use to maybe get people to climb on certain climbs and so the classic at different angles, but so I don't want to be too mean, but I don't know. Just that's my that's my two cents. That's my my board talk PSA. I'll second that. Uh I also saw that uh this guy, uh Eli, I think it's Eli Finn. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Yeah. Did you see that? Wait a yeah. Yeah, yeah, he's from the Northeast. He's cool. He's done uh yeah, I've seen him do a couple of the 14s on the mirror layout. Um he's strong.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

Yeah, he did freeing Atlas, which was the the proposed V15 by Sean RHM, which got repeated quickly by Daniel Woods, and who you know said maybe it was like 13 or or maybe 14. I don't know. Uh, but I don't know if I've seen anyone else do that other than Eli and Daniel and Sean.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

Yannick Floyd did it.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

Oh, that's right. Oh, that's right. Interesting. Okay, well, it was still crazy news to me. It was this it was also interesting seeing him do it the other way. Like that is one of the things I like about the mirror, is you're like, oh, I can't do it this way because it hurts my shoulder, so I do it the other way.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

Yeah, yeah, it's it's a cool feature. I wish we had I mean, I don't know. I do like having it on the mirror, but also sometimes you just get in your head about it and you're like, I don't know. If I do a move on one side of me and then I'm like, oh man, I like don't know if I can do it on this side, and I just like I kind of want to move on.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

What bums me out is when I will do something or I will do like a crux move on one way and then and I'll struggle on some other move later on the climb and I'll mirror it, and I can do that later move easier, but I can't do the crux move. I'm just like, damn, like it's that's probably the best climb for me because it exposes weaknesses on both sides. Yeah, I

Jimmy Webb, Carlo Traversi, and David Fitzgerald On The Kilter Board

SPEAKER_02 52:21

agree. Let's see what else happened. We we got we didn't have as much media. Actually, I take it back. We had some teaser media from uh Jimmy Webb, David Fitzgerald, and Carlo doing a kilter video at the stack, which is Carlo's new gym. And I don't know much about it. I did poke Carlo a little bit, but I didn't want him to have to spill the beans. Well, he said we'll have to wait for the video. But I mean, of course I want to see more Jimmy Webb on the boards. Also cool to see more David Fitzgerald, who is an absolute monster. Uh, and I mean Carlo self-claimed not so great on the boards. I'm sure he did just fine, but it's gonna be tough going up against those two absolute board legends.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

David Fitzgerald is like my favorite rock climber of all time. He's the best to me. Um, he's so good on the boards, too. He's probably one of the people that I am really impressed by his foot tension. Like it's underrated, and he's like, you know, he's Irish or whatever and humble and doesn't really say anything about it very much. But if you watch him climb, like I think I watched his video of Boogalyson was like the first time I ever heard about him. Um and that video just like he climbs so pretty and he climbs so aesthetically that it's like I just want to be like him. Like I want to look like that.

SPEAKER_02 53:39

I want to be like Dave too. Uh yeah, it's funny because some of the videos I've seen of him. I don't even know if he put this publicly, but he sent a video of it to me where he's just doing some like 30-second uh hold on the small edge of the beast maker, like not the middle edge, and and not with two hands, with one hand. And so he's kind of known as having uh elite finger strength, but then you combine that with foot tension and weight on your feet, it's like one of the best ways to make your hands quote unquote stronger is by putting more weight on your feet. Yeah, it's just just as simple as that.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

So he's got both. Actually, to go back to the foot tension thing, uh another subtle technique that you can do to make your foot tension better is by really using your thumbs. So if you like press into the hold with your thumb as you go to it instead of just like pulling down on it, like a lot of times with like that jump and latch style, you jump to a hold and you just like want to grab it as hard as you can and like really isolate it. But that pulls you off of the foot a lot of the times. And if you like grab it more as like a mini pinch and like push into the thumb, it mostly works on steeper boulders, like at like 40 is probably gonna make that much of a difference. But if you're like engaging your back and like your scapula and like pushing against the holds in the same way that you're like pulling towards them, then that like kind of makes your whole body like really tight.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

Uh, that makes sense. That's wild to think about. Uh it it makes me think of the whole discussion I had with Burke and uh Carlos uh Carlo talking about how he often likes to get his thumb involved and doesn't do as much full crimping, and just that idea of it adding like another vector to put pressure where you need it. And yeah, damn, I didn't even think of that. Uh my my other tip for uh keeping your feet on came from my OG mentors, Jeremy Meeggs and Joel Rusher. And they said to me, just think about keeping your foot on. And like it's it's really dumb, but like I swear to God, I was, I don't know, I was probably like climbing V8 or V9, and my feet would cut all the time. I was kind of doing a lot of gymnastics and I was really strong in my upper body. And just actually thinking about like putting your your your focus there, it it adds up. Like at first, it's like a muscle that you've never used, maybe, maybe literally. Um, and then you just keep practicing it and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

And then it becomes

New Media From Quantum

SPEAKER_00 56:01

intuitive.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

Okay, uh the other big board stuff we saw was a bunch of stuff by Quantum. Um, Quantum is a Waltopia company that has has like a really big board. It's like 15 by 15. It the the color scheme almost kind of looks like a kilter board where they they light like the side of the holds. Um, and they've been putting out a ton of content with big names. So there was uh Nikolai Uznik uh versus Stefano on this like competition kind of thing. Um, and then we saw Nathaniel Coleman and Xander uh do a little video too. And I was talking to you about these videos. I gotta say, like I love those names. I loved watching them climb. I like that Quantum is putting out this content, seeing these people, but it just like if somehow feels like too corporate to me, like I like, I like have a hard time. Like, I'll just say like I didn't really watch the videos. I kind of like kind of like skimmed them, saw you know Nikolai being unbelievably strong, watched Nathaniel just execute when he wants to. Um, but there's just something like lacking there, and I don't know, that's that's my take. But uh, did you end up watching those videos at all, Brian?

SPEAKER_00 57:19

I think I like briefly skimmed through some of them. I I don't think I watched the Xander Nathaniel one, but yeah, I don't know. I like I kind of feel the same way. I think there's it's a very different board, like there's a lot more macros on there. Um and the style, at least like from the videos that I've seen that Xander's post, it's like kind of a lot of like weird, crazy, dynamic, compy moves. Um, which is cool. You know, like there's a time and place for that too. Like there's there's macro spray walls with a bunch of fiberglass, and then there's spray walls like the red board that Burke used to climb on, it's all crimps. Um, so there's like a place for everything. But yeah, I don't know. I'm not definitely not like the most inspired by that board. Have you seen one? Like, isn't there one in Salt Lake or coming to Salt Lake? I think there is one in Salt Lake. I haven't ever climbed on it though.

SPEAKER_02 58:01

Yeah, I I want to kind of say this in a in a better way where I appreciate quantum spending money on athletes and content to create this stuff, and I don't want to discourage that. I just hope that they keep refining how they do it. And there just feels like there could be a more fun or a more soulful way than kind of just it. It feels like it's I guess I'm just waiting for the next board lords episode, is what I'm really saying. I like that. Okay, I feel like I said negative stuff, and I don't want to say I I love boards, I love the content coming out. They've reached out to me too. Quantum has has you know offered to you know try to get me uh on a quantum board so I can um have a better take on it. Um and so I I encourage the new entrance to the market. I guess maybe I'm just such a board lords fan. I'm a little biased, what can I say? I've been to a board lords. Uh maybe if they invite me to uh you know watch one of their competitions or have one, I'll change my tune. But um this brings us up to uh something that you were talking about where we have you know kind of like the boards on the market right now. I've got the the tension board, uh, the moon board, the kilter board, and now we kind of have the quantum board, there's a decoy board, there's other boards, and or there's the woods board too. And yeah, just like it seems like we all love boards and want more boards, but then there's only so much real estate and uh like for gyms to have it. And just what's your take on new entrance, or if you know how you feel about just more boards entering the market at this point in time?

SPEAKER_00 59:36

I definitely think we're at a point where there's a lot of boards on the market, and like I don't know, every five years, like Moonboard comes out with a new set, and like the kilter board hasn't really changed, but they like made the 16 by 12, and then there's you know, the decoy, the grasshopper board, the omniboard, the you know, there's so many boards, and like I think one of the hardest parts is that if you're trying to make a board to satisfy like your whole customer base, like that's such a hard thing to do in a 12 by 12 space. Like you, it's nice that it's adjustable because it just it gets easier, but like like even the tension board, for example, I like I still feel like that whole board is too juggy. Like I think there's too many good holds on that board. Like it's really hard to make hard boulders that are like at 45 or even 50. And like the woods board is maybe like too far in the other direction where it's like there's too many bad holds on that, and like nobody who doesn't climb like at least V10 is gonna have a good time on that thing. So, like there is space, like there is a combo of like a harder board that's maybe a little bit more dense and like has a good hold selection. Like, I think there still isn't the perfect board out there yet, but then also like spraywalls exist, you know, like everybody needs to like have their own spray wall and kind of move away from the boards from time to time and just like it's not beyond an app.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:55

I feel like spray walls are gonna disappear though, Brian. I feel like they're they're a dying brand. I don't know. We've got a lot in Salt Lake all of a sudden. Yeah, you've got Pusher has a good one, right? Um uh I mean the the training center probably has like a sweet one for the Olympians.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

Uh yeah, momentum or not momentum, the French just build like a huge spray wall, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:17

Well, maybe I'm just being a cynic and I just worry, like I guess I when I am around kind of spray walls that get set more recently, I don't like them, man. Like they're just not good. It's almost like a lost art. And then I think to myself, and I'll have people ask me about building a spray wall versus uh buying like a standardized set. And you know, I'm talking to someone, they probably climb like V5, and I'm just like, don't build your own spray wall. Like you, you know, you've never set before, you don't know what holds to buy. Like, are you gonna set your own boulders? Like, is this what you're gonna do? Like uh, and it just makes me worried that maybe there'll be a resurgence and maybe then it'll become like this amazing craft, just kind of like how commercial boulders are, where uh you know, hopefully like you'll have spray wall setters that are expert, like literally, you know, where they place the holds and everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

Yeah. Yeah, I think like one of the coolest things about spray walls, or at least like what makes them good to me, is having a good hold selection. And like for me, training, I don't want to be wasting skin. Like that's what I kind of like. The front board, the front training uh like tension board too is really greasy and it's like there's no texture on any of those holds. But honestly, I kind of like that because I don't lose skin on it. I can like go climb on that thing for however long I want to, and like my skin is like the exact same as when I started. And I think a lot of the spray walls nowadays have like too many new holds or too much fiberglass or stuff like that, and like you can only climb on that for so long, and then it's like also becomes a conditions thing where you know the fiberglass, like you're not sticking on it because it's 70 degrees, and you know, it's like the art of a spray wall is having just old holds, like old resin holds that you know have no texture on them, and all you gotta do is just like squeeze so hard on them. Like, that's what I like about spray walls.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

Yeah, it's funny how like you'll see a spray wall go up, and it's like all new holds, and you're like, no, no, no, no. This is where all your old holds go. Do not spend extra money.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:17

Yeah, go put those on the sets. I don't want them on the spray wall.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Well, what I heard from you saying that there's a lot of new boards on the market uh and that they can't do everything, is that what we need is to convince gyms to just have more space for more boards. That's that's what I really heard.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:35

Well, I think I mean there's a whole surgence right now in board-specific gyms and just like training spaces in general. And I it's you don't have to have a ton of space. Like you can have just like a general warehouse space and you have four or five boards, a spray wall, and like maybe one wall of sets, and like that's all you need. Like, I don't think you really need more than that. And when gyms are leaning so far corporate to just mega centers that have crazy sport climbing and crazy bouldering and a crazy hold selection, like that stuff's really cool, but also like it's distracting and you don't utilize all of it and you don't need all of it. Like, if all I'm doing is going to the gym to try to get stronger, like I just want a board, pull-up bar, some weights, and a spray wall.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

Yeah, definitely. I still feel like that model hasn't totally been figured out. Like it's there is a board gym focused thing going on over the last three or five years. I still think it's like a little TBD, like what the optimal board gym looks like. You know, we're we're seeing a bunch of experiments. Um, you know, there's that like ROQ rock with like a million kilter boards all at like different angles. I know that yeah, just a lot of big cities, like I think Asia with their lack of high ceilings and like generally like you know, like maybe like the the bigger cities, uh not rural Asia has like more space constraints. And so you're seeing like boards go in there. But yeah, I'm I'm not sure that I don't know. Like I wish that there was some gym that we could point towards that's a board-only gym or a board-focused gym that we're like, that's the one, like that's really successful.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

I don't know exactly what the name of it is, but there is a gym in Colorado that's maybe it's like the space or something like that. The lab. You're talking about the lab, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like that place seems cool. I was talking to Daniel Woods about that, and he said it's like always pretty busy. And you know, they have what two tension boards, a kilter board, a moon board, and a spray wall. And it's like you have a key code to go in there, and you can kind of go whenever you want to. Like that's that's what you need.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:32

Okay, I want to come visit, I'm gonna go see it. Because if Daniel, who's climbed on probably quite a few spray walls and gyms in general, says it's dope. Actually, I remember uh my buddy Tim Kang was living out in Colorado. I don't know if he's still there, but he said that he drove extra to go to the lab. Like, 'cause it was it was really fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:52

And I think it separates the climbers too. Like when climbing's becoming so like, I don't know, everybody in their mother climbs nowadays. So you go to the gym and it's more of a social hobby than it is an actual like sport that a lot of people do. And so it'll separate like who actually wants to climb to get better versus who wants to go to the climbing gym and like spend 90% of the time talking to their friends and 10% of the time climbing.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

Not going to tell you which one I am, but um I hear you. Uh I I do think it's interesting that what you pointed out is that the TB2 for really, really hard climbing might be too juggy. And you know, then there's other boards that are you know maybe even harder, like the Woods board. And I don't know this. I'll ask Michael next time uh he's on board talk, but I am kind of curious, like they're great climbers over there. They know that, I'm guessing. Like they weren't like, oh, you know what this board will be perfect for? V16. Like I guarantee you that they didn't think that. They know uh the holes they're shaping. I wonder if they had like an idea of like this will best serve this grade distribution. Like, I wonder if that was in their heads, because I don't think they would also say, like, and this is the best climbs for V0. Like, I I'm just my instinct is that they know what they were doing. Same same with like Moonboard, they weren't like this is the best way to introduce people to climbing, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

I yeah, and like there's specific holds that I end up setting with like all the time on my boulders, just because they're like the worst holds on the board, and like they're kind of the only ones that I can use to make bad holds and like keep your feet on the wall, like just like hard moves that aren't just like jump to a jug. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:28

Uh, do me a favor and go check out the TTC, the tension training center with the new 16 by 12 while you're out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:34

I want to. It looks cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

Yeah. Have you heard anything? I know I've seen, I'm pretty sure Noah's been out there. Like some of that crew must have been out there and tried some of the expanded thing, but I'm psyched. I I I want to hear more about people actually on it and whether they have like I think they do have some small holds. Like they, you know, I I'm I'm hoping that you know maybe it opens up for guys like you to set like another level of boulders.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

Yeah, it'd be cool. I one of the gripes with the like the original tension board set was just that there isn't like very many like really small micro crimps, and like the ones that there are maybe like too far micro. Um, so I think they did like from what I've heard at least they did change that.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

Yeah, yeah. Uh I gotta go check it out. Yeah, I I I st I do maintain that like 16 by 12 seems like the biggest like our class board can get, but maybe I'm wrong. Like, it just seems like could you imagine if it was 20 by 12? Like, I don't know, like that seems um that's it's getting ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

Widthwise, I think like 16 by 12 is plenty wide, but like height wise, I mean I I guess at that point maybe you have to limit like how far vertical it'll go. Because if you have like a 15-foot wall, like I mean, I don't know, 15 foot like at zero degrees is like that's pretty tall in the gym, especially if you have a kicker. And but if you can only make it where it goes like 40 or 45 is like the like the lowest angle it goes to, then 15.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:57

Yeah, so I I like I like saying I can't remember. I used to say this on the podcast a long time ago like let's bring the danger back to climbing, like let's let's make it exciting even indoors. And I'm like, I like 12 foot high walls, like come on, you guys, like we're athletes, like let's make it exciting. But the like, yeah, good. I'm glad you're on board with that. But but the pushback I would give to myself is that with boards the way they are and some of these like harder climbs, like having like wild committing moves at the top of the panel, dude. If it was like 16 feet up there, because like my kicker, the kicker at my gym is like two or three feet tall. Like you do not want to be doing wild sideways double dinos at like 17 feet.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

Yeah, you just don't. And you know, you know somebody's gonna set one like that too. Hey, I signed a waiver for a reason though. We gotta put that waiver to use.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

Dude, I agree with that though. Like, we that there is certain things that you need to like you don't want to do that move on like a V0. You don't want to like be like, hey, V0 climber, here's a ladder, but then you gotta like do like a giant parkour move like 18 feet up. But like, if you're like a V10 climber, like shouldn't you be allowed to like do something kind of wild and risky? I mean, that's part of climbing committing, so there's an argument there. All right, that's the the next board, it's like the death board, like uh like 40 feet tall.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:28

Yeah, we'll see. One of one of the issues with the front tension board is that the corners sag a lot. So when you like grab the jugs on like the top corner of the wall, it'll like come back like quite a few degrees. And so, like, yeah, it'll like snap back. And like if you fall on the last move of a boulder that like jumps to a corner jug, you like it's kind of a gnarly fall sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:48

I I like that we've seen some recognition on especially like the eight by twelves, where they don't put jugs on the sides because it's like you're in your like house and you have like your wall like right next to you, and you're like doing massive dinos. Like, I literally have on the what is it on the 2016 moon board, they have like this good horn, like this white kind of horn on the top right, and there's so many climbs that like I just can't do without dabbing because it's like yes, you have to huck to this, and and I feel like there's some recognition that some of these smaller sizes end up in locations that don't have a lot of wiggle room. So, yeah, you guys please don't set. I mean, maybe in like a 16 by 12 you can do that because clearly that's going to a gym, or at least I I don't think I'll ever get one in my garage.

The Omni Board

SPEAKER_02 1:11:34

Okay, uh, I do want to just shout out the omni board that you did bring up, and I actually know some of the crew behind that, and I think that's like actually a different board. Like sometimes I see boards come on the market, and it's like this is like a better version of X board that's like really popular. I'm always like, I don't know, you guys, like that's gonna be really hard to make your wedge in the market when you're like just doing something that like is already really popular, like a little bit better. Like you might be right, like this is a little better than you know, pick pick uh moon or uh attention or kilter. But like those boards are really good and really popular, and like I want to see more like really brand new things, like things that just are outside the box. And that omniboard is cool because it's like a tread board or tread wall board, so you know you can think of it as like route climbing, but then it's a grid like a like a kilter or tension or a moon, and it lights up, and so it's like you could set like a route there, that's still not cool enough. That's still kind of whatever, except for that the angle of the board changes while you're on it. So you could be like climbing, and then it's like a crux steep section, um, and then it goes back and you can kind of like rest on like 10 degrees or something. Isn't that pretty cool? I thought that was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:55

That's cool. But I feel like the first like 10 sessions on that thing, I would just be so tweaked out. I'd be like, oh my god, the ball's moving too.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:02

Yeah, treadballs are weird, dude. I don't know. I with yeah, with all that said, like I've only climbed a treadmill once or twice. I just like there's something about like when you're not climbing, you're like plummeting towards the ground. I know it turns off, but like I want to be able to climb, like I want to be able to do the move like when I decide to do the move.

unknown 1:13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:22

Okay, well, Brian, I got some uh some good Patreon questions uh for you from from the crew. I really like this first one because it it comes down to uh to the rules of board climbing. If you want to hear that QA and other extra behind the scenes content from this episode and others, head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad-free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow, please share this episode with someone who would love it. Okay, see you next week.