#194 Chris Deuto — No Fall Situations, Type 2 Fun, and Climbing The Southeast Ridge Of Cerro Torre

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

To be completely transparent, like I definitely like lose my cool a little bit more on the way down because I'm like, I'm scared. And like it's harder for my mind to accept that, like, if the wrap anchor comes out, there's just nothing I can do to prevent that. It's not in my control. And it kind of sucks to know that and still have to do it. But at the same time, you just do it.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Welcome to the Test Piece Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com/slash testpiece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Chris Dudo. Welcome to Test Peace Podcast, man. How's it going?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Good, man. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Chris, uh you had some technical difficulties. You thought we started an hour early, but you aren't the first one to do that. I feel like you young guys, you don't use your calendar. You just just kind of winging it.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Yeah. Well, actually, this uh the Riverside Studio like email went to my spam. So I didn't put it in my calendar. That was probably why.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

I feel like you just did like an ad for Riverside Studios right there. You're you're a pro, dude. Look, look, look at this. Yeah. Yeah. Chris, uh, you had a pretty big year, man. Uh you are probably best known for being the youngest person to do the Yosemite Triple Crown. Just happened. I didn't realize that. That only happened like a month or two ago. You did it unsupported. It took you guys 22 hours. But Chris, I don't even know why that is impressive. Can you help me, just a lowly Pebble wrestler, understand why that made such big headlines?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yeah. Uh well, first of all, thank you. And I noticed you mentioned that we did it unsupported. I want to mention, just for the nitpickers out there, we had a teeny bit of support. My girlfriend carried some food to meet us between uh Matt Watkins and Half Dome. So the second and third wall we climbed. And that was actually more logistical than the support. I know. I know you can't log it on eight day.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

The comments are gonna roll in. It was a liar, a cheat, and uh that sandwich off limits. Terrible aid.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

And it was actually because we couldn't get a bear box to stash our food. So we didn't want to leave it and then get to our our break spot and have there be no food. So so we had her just meet us up the trail. And um, yeah, and then we did it human-powered, so we biked between each wall, which was kind of one of the important things about a challenge like that for me, is um getting it done and like uh yeah, completely in your own power, you know, covering that terrain under your own power. And anyway, to answer your question, I think what's cool about it is for me at least, it's like a culmination of skills I've learned through other types of climbing, even though they may not seem related. And um I mean that's part of what I want to talk about on here is like how it is all more interconnected than people may think. And even though on the triple you're doing a lot of aid climbing, a lot of five-nine climbing as fast as you can without placing much gear, I take skills that I've learned from other areas of the sport, which is what makes these things possible for me.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Yeah, yeah, Chris, when we chatted, you know, you had sent me a message, you're like, Josh, test piece is my favorite podcast. And I said, Chris, that's awesome. Are you sure? I don't I don't think that board climbing helped you in Pagonia, and then I was just blown away by your pursuits outside of what I think of as kind of like the more adventure uh side of things. You know, you climb hard 514, V14, and then you're off in the mountains doing wild stuff. And yeah, I was I was excited to hear about kind of like how you bridge that gap between I don't know, the the climbing that people like me, people who spend too much time indoors in the gym, how that translates to what you're doing on really like the biggest stages or biggest mountains in the world.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of baggage with that question, I think. But if I had to find a commonality between every type of climbing, or I guess the way I bridge that gap, is through the I guess my like desire to challenge myself, and it sounds cliche, but the feeling of overcoming a hard set of moves on a boulder problem or a sport route uh or a big mountain or anything in climbing is all kind of the same, and like the specific sensations can be different, but it's all about that discomfort and fear of failure, and kind of trying to push beyond that in one realm or another. And um the root of all that for me is is inspiration. You know, I'm very inspired by like a five-star boulder. And not that there are many in Colorado, but if there's a boulder that's uh amazingly aesthetic, and I've seen pictures of it and heard stories about the history, when I show up to that boulder, it's you know, I'm like frothing at the mouth to climb on it, and and I'm intimidated. I want to be part of that history and to figure out the set of moves and climb it is really meaningful. And it's kind of the same on a bigger scale with a big mountain or a link up like the triple.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Okay, you're speaking my language, Chris, because I am also frothing at the mouth about five-star boulders when I see them. Uh, but it's interesting to hear someone like you say that, where when I see pictures of you on Cerro Torre or something, I'm just like, wow. It's stunning. It's tall, it's big. I mean, if you've ever been to Yosemite and you drive around there and you see L Cap, like it's huge. But then I also agree when I see midnight lightning on the valley floor that really captures me. And what makes something a five-star boulder to you? And what makes something like a five-star, gosh, I don't even know what the term to use is because I'm out of my depth here. Like, you know, what what made, I know you did the Southeast Ridge in Saratori, which looks beautiful. Like, is that a five-star alpine objective? I don't even know what to call it, man. Help me out, help me out with my vocabulary.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

I I think it is, and maybe some people would disagree because it doesn't have world-class rock or anything like that. But when I consider something to be five stars, quote unquote, it's um it's really about the the line of weakness, you know, the aesthetics of the the line. I mean, Midnight Lightning is a great example of a five-star boulder, in my opinion, or perhaps uh King Air as another one. Where you just Yes, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Amazing. Yes. Just have a line, you know, perfect start hold, and then from that start, the easiest, most efficient way to get to the top is to climb that set of holds. There's no other way. There's blankness on the left and to the right. And that's what a five-star boulder is qualified as in my mind. Obviously, if it's tall and aesthetic, that helps. The rock's good, you know, the landing's good, all that stuff. And it's the same with the sport route or a single-pitched trad route. And then as that applies to a big mountain objective in alpine climbing, it's a bit easier actually to for something to be pure. You start at the bottom of the mountain and you climb the easiest way you can up the mountain. And the reason the Southeast Ridge is so inspiring to me is because it's simultaneously the line of strength on Territory and also the line of weakness. It's not the easiest route on the mountain, I would say, but if you're a rock climber, it probably is. And it's also like the proudest feature. It's this I mean, it's the ridge, it's the uh the arette that you see from hundreds of miles away, literally, and it's 4,000 feet tall, and it's to the top of a spire. And it it's just um it's really cool to be on a route like that and say, like, oh, I don't know which way is the best way to go. I'm gonna go the easiest way. And that is the line, you know?

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Wait, dude, that happens to you when you're like multiple pitches deep and it's cold and it might be nighttime and you don't even know which way you're going, and then you have to just kind of like, ah, that like corner looks easier than that blank face. Like, do you make those decisions like mid-send that uh you know, like you may not be on route? Or I don't know what on route means then. I don't know. Maybe maybe I don't even understand.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

No, absolutely. I mean, Patagonia specifically has a very, very well-done guidebook by Rolando Garibotti. And I mean, he has a topo for these routes. And so it's similar to a big wall topo, but because it's alpine-y, they're not quite as detailed. And so you're kind of like studying the topo of like, are we underneath this ice block or this one? Like, do we cut further left or right? And you look up and you think, well, it could be all the same. Like, I know where we need to end up. So you're kind of following your nose a little bit, and then at the same time trying to consider other climbers before you, you know, like what other alpinists, like, where would they have gone? You know, it's a bit of creativity. I mean, that's part of what draws me into it. There's there's some creativity involved and like some vision.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

All right, I'm gonna get way out there for just one second. Uh, and that's this whole thing of rocks and nature being fractal. I don't know if you know what that word means, but it's this idea that like if you look at a full mountain and the way it is formed, if you like then look at like a small piece of rock, it mimics that big piece of rock. So like when you look at midnight lightning, like that feature could end up on L Cap. And if you like look at like a piece of rock that's granite on the ground, it would kind of have those features as well. Like, you know, it's it's all just like these different scales. And it's cool. The reason what made me think of it is that you're talking about determining which way to go up. Uh, and it's funny because you know you think about midnight lightning and you're like, well, these are the holds. I get to do it my way. Like I get to like choose my own beta or use my own feet, and it's wild that you're like doing that on like maybe even a whole pitch level. You're like, well, like that looks okay over there, but looks kind of loose. Like I am better at face climbing, so I'm gonna go this way because it looks better. Like, it's just uh kind of cool.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Exactly. Yeah, it's very that's a good way to put it. I like that analogy. I've never heard that before. Um, I'm definitely gonna use that though, with permission. You're copywriting it.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Uh yeah, I just I don't think that I have any kind of understanding of what I'm talking about on these big mountain objectives. So if my analogy can help the layman or the lesser pebble wrestlers uh understand it, please, please use it to help everyone.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Yeah, yeah.

Chris's Introduction To Climbing

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Okay. You're somewhat young still. Like I said, you were the youngest to do the triple crown, and you know, you're kind of from this era where kids typically grew up in gyms. And I don't know how you got started climbing, but I'm really, really hoping that you say a birthday party. That's what I'm hoping. I'm just hoping that you went to a birthday party in the gym and now you're climbing in Patagonia.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

You know, my memory's foggy, but it's gotta be close. I definitely started climbing. Like the very first time I ever climbed a wall was in a rec center on like a 20-foot auto bullet thing. Yeah. And that being said, like my parents are climbers. They used to take me uh as a toddler into the gym while they did their session, um, which is probably how it got seated in my mind. But the first interaction I had with rock climbing was at this rec center called Apex, which is like a swimming pool and a gym. And they got like, yeah, yeah, rec center wall. And I just like was able to climb it and you know, just kind of took a liking. And then I went on to join the team BRC, which is where my parents were climbing. I was probably eight at that point, seven or eight.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Wait, what was that gym? Say it, Jim, one more time.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

BRC, Boulder Rock Club.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

They aren't the one. No, that's Denver Rock Club that just shut down. Sorry, total tangent. Um I was really sad to see that because they were, I don't know, good community there. Um, so you joined, okay, not quite a birthday, but pretty much the same thing. The only like more ridiculous way for people to get introduced to rock climbing is at like like the circus, or you know, when they have like those walls, those like portable walls that you're just so interesting. Start um comp climbing. Or no, you were on the team. You started, I I guess you joined the comp circuit as well, did what every other young, young kid does when they join a team.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Yeah, more or less. I mean, I want to point out that because my parents, my dads specifically have been lifelong climbers, maybe even since before I actually joined a team. I was involved in these like outdoor adventures, specifically like hiking to the top of mountains around where I grew up, or basically as soon as I joined the team, I my dad took me like outside bouldering and to the crag and and kind of showed me how to do it outside. So I always had this linear motivation. And maybe that's where that like seed of the multifaceted style came from was that even as I was like a nine-year-old at my first regional comp, I was also focusing on like outdoor projects, you know. And um, I was just stoked on both at the time. And Boulder Rock Club, it's an it's really an amazing place. Like those guys there. I mean, the coaches that I had when I joined the team are still coaching. It just is a little spot that's unchanged. Uh Daniel Woods used to be on the team there, Emily Harrington, Jonathan Siegris used to climb there. It's old school, dude. And like they haven't changed their ways in terms of coaching ever. And they just continually produce crops of uh motivated, lifelong climbers. And that was always their thing, you know. They're like, you should compete because it's good for you, but you don't have to. And we just want you to be better at climbing.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Those are some uh some pretty big names that went through there. Any anything you remember that was like I mean, you just said like maybe their secret sauce is that they create climbers who love it for life, and it's a lot it's a lot easier to get good at something if you do it for 20 years than two years. So that's definitely a factor. But anything that the coaching team over there is is uh yeah, what what's their other secrets?

SPEAKER_00 14:32

You know, it's funny because I think their competitors that end up doing well in the competitions are they do well mostly just because of a a bit of talent and like a lot of motivation to just be better at climbing, and then the coaches are kind of there, they just hold their hand through it. And when I was on BRC, we used to always like compare ourselves to the competitors on team ABC, which is you know a mile away from team BRC, and a lot of my friends, like Colin Duffy and and uh that that kind of crew were on ABC when I was on BRC, and so I knew them well. And like we'd always joke that they're the like rigorous, no games, like do sit-ups till you cry as a kid kind of thing. And I mean there's a little bit of truth to that, but yeah, we were like the outdoor team kind of and then they were the like comp focused, you know, Robin Robatu driven to win team. And there's nothing wrong with that, but there is a difference for sure.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Dude, you totally just took me back to when I was a kid, and we had like a group that was the more outdoor-focused and the more kind of driven to win, like counting reps, counting pull-ups. And I was always really attracted to the kind of more outdoor stuff or the less structured, the more joyful climbing, because I had come out of gymnastics, and gymnastics was so rigorous and so brutal like that. And I thought to myself, how climbing is just this stage where you can go up however you want to, like you were saying. You know, it's just like it's up to you. And so, you know, I admire, I'm never gonna say anything bad about people who work hard and have that kind of discipline because there's also joy in that. I mean, I love gymnastics and that stuff, but I think the thing that made me a lifelong climber was the ability for it to be a bit more of a blank canvas and to have joy in it however I wanted to.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, with that being said, I mentioned Colin Duffy. He still obviously climbs and loves climbing and is incredibly good at competing. He's always been that way, and so there's nothing wrong. It's just a matter of, I mean, when you consider where Colin's at in his climbing career versus where, you know, me or even uh Daniel Woods. I mean, Daniel competed, but it was a different landscape than, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

I don't know, man. You're the one on the Test Piece podcast. Who knows what those guys are doing today?

SPEAKER_00 16:47

It's true.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

All right, so you are on the team surrounded by tons of joy and fun, and you're also getting outdoors. Dude, actually, your cheat code for all this is just you got born in Boulder, or I don't know if you live in Boulder, but you're in Colorado proper. Are you in Boulder?

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Mm-mm. I yeah, commend my parents. They drove an hour and a half three days a week to drive me to the gym in Boulder because we grew up in the mountains west of Denver. So I'd leave school 30 minutes early, go to the gym, go to practice, they'd climb, get home at 10, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Rough sacrifice, leaving school early. No, that that is uh really cool that they they encourage you on that. But uh yeah, I'm just giving you a crap because it's it is a good cheat code to have parents that climb and to be in an area like you were around people who were excellent. Um, but that still uh is kind of a normal beginning where you're on a team, maybe competing a little bit and getting outside. But did your parents do big alpine missions? Like, where did that leap occur?

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Well, to give specific context in terms of how my parents climbed. My mom got into climbing because she met my dad. My dad was actually like kind of second gen boulder bro, and I don't say that lightly. Like he he grew up in New Mexico and was homies with like Fred Nicole and would like spot young Dave Graham and Sharma when they were rampaging in Waco, you know? Like and he was climbing pretty hard at the time. And um, I mean he he describes the the golden age of Waco tanks, even still with like a romantic tone. And then I think he just being my dad, I can imagine how his inspiration was drawn towards the mountains, and once he came to Colorado, um, I think he was definitely inspired to to climb some of the 14ers. I mean, he's done Long Speak a bunch, he's climbed the diamond on Longspeak, he's done all of the Colorado 14ers, never gone on like big expeditions or anything like that, but certainly like has a trad background and just an adventure sense.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

I think people don't appreciate that, especially back then, bouldering was like an adventure in the sense that like it's just this idea of choosing a path or making a path that other people hadn't trodden a lot before. Like there's no topo, there's there's no freaking crash pads. Uh, you know, it's just like it's just new and different and wild and and adventuresome. And those are my best memories of bouldering, even though yeah, you will find me indoors on a board trying really hard. It's fun to like, even in bouldering, get out there, like not know, you know, get lost, find new boulders, get off the deck, like not know if it's safe or not. And so I I see that that thread. And yeah, when did you start joining him on those bigger, like kind of multi-pitch missions?

SPEAKER_00 19:41

It's funny, I don't know if I've done a whole lot of multi-pitches with my dad. I definitely didn't when I was starting out. Um, and I can go into like how I got into multi-pitching, but I'm pretty sure I climbed my first mountain, like maybe even technical mountain, before I was on the team. I I have a distinct memory, I had to have been around seven or eight, of so where we live, it's called St. Mary's Glacier. It's at 10,000 feet in elevation, that's where I grew up. And from the front door of my house, you can walk to the Continental Divide in the Indian Peaks and like beyond 13,000 foot mountains. And so as an eight-year-old, my dad like took me up, you know, incrementally larger hills, and eventually was like, we're gonna climb this 13-year-old behind the house called James Peak. And and I just remember that being a gigantic adventure. It's like at four and a half miles to the summit, it's not even that big of a day. But um, but as a little kid, you know, it was like totally epic. And I think that was really what started it all. And um, like on that note, I don't have an exact timeline, but I recall watching old YouTube videos of people in the Himalaya and like reading into thin air and stuff in like third grade. You know, these are these climbing histories of like mountain climbing was something that kind of appealed to me separately than rock climbing, but it always has been a part of my climbing outlook, even maybe since before I was a rock climber. And anyway, yeah, so my dad, like I think he took me up my first snow climb with crampons, which was on James Peak when I was eight or nine, you know, and we just like soloed it. You know, he gave me one ice hacks and some like strap-on crampons, and he's like, here you go, like you know, don't fall or like you'll have to self-arrest. And he showed me how to do that on like snow around our house. And uh, so it's it's really like deeply rooted, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Damn, I can't I've got a six-year-old, I can't imagine taking her up anything. I like get scared when she's on her bike. Uh maybe I'm being a bad parent. Maybe this is what it takes, just chuck your kids into the deep end and see what happens. And either you, you know, you come out a a champ or I don't know. Maybe, yeah. Uh well, I'm kind of curious about how you learned these techniques around multi pitch and everything. Like uh again, I I I was giving you crap about like I don't know the vocabulary. I was just thinking about my climbing. And I'm like, okay, like I've done plenty of single-pitch trad, I've done multi-pitch trad. Uh, but then there's like this whole like next level of big walls, and then there's like Alpine, then there's mountaineering, and I don't know if there's like these hard cutoffs of when things change, but I I'm guessing you didn't just go from the rec center to Patagonia. And I'm curious how you kind of like made these leaps and developed those skills. Uh and am I kind of you think I'm delineating those different disciplines correctly?

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Yeah, I think so. I mean, so to give like a brief history of that, I um was on BRC for about five years, and during that time I mostly focused on single-pitch sport and hard bouldering, like even more so than competition. I mean, I made it to national championships plenty of time, like probably eight times over the years, but I was not a good competitor. I never made Temis, and I just I was not good with that pressure. It just didn't suit me very well, and so I always found more joy in like sending outside. And I had one friend in particular, his name is Tanner Bauer. Um, he just finished Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure you know of him. Um he is my oldest friend. Like I met him the day I joined BRC, and he has a similar sort of climbing parent background, and so we would always go outside together, and that just naturally evolved um into around you know year five of being on BRC. We both switched teams to join Team Solo, which was a j uh small team that at the time uh Justin Sean coached.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Amazing coach.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

And Justin took both Tanner and I up our first multi-pitch, which was we he did it separately, but it was the naked edge and eldo, which is like kind of hard. Yeah. Like it was super real. I mean, I just followed the whole thing, but I had never crack climbed and stuff and got totally shut down on like the 5'10 hand crack and yada yada, but that was like the first time I did any sort of trad climbing or multi-pitching. Um, and I must have been 14. And then because he had taken both Tanner and I up that we started trad climbing together and just really learning how to do it on our own. And I mentioned Justin, and Justin absolutely was a mentor in my climbing, but this is something I wanted to bring up a little bit. I do think there's a lack of climbing mentors. Like nobody showed me how to get into this stuff. Like, I have learned from people like Justin or Josh Wharton or just watching videos and like reading books, but I I haven't had like a consistent older person who's been like, here's how you do this, this, and this. I've really just gone out there with friends and like not died and got it figured out.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

But dude, maybe that's like so I agree with you about there not being a ton of mentors, and people really did take me under their wing when I was young and showed me a lot of stuff. But maybe maybe this is the answer to not having mentors is guys like you and Tanner just going out and figuring it out and not dying, and then you know, learning your own systems, like learning what you deem is safe and fast and correct. And I'm sure you then you you know BS around the campfire or whatever, and you hear about other ways people like did X, Y, or Z and like incorporate into your own thing. But I like that you guys are just like, screw it. We're just we're gonna do it our way, we'll figure it out. Like that's that's awesome, man.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Totally, thank you. And it's funny because I I say figured it out while not dying, not lightly. Like we, you know, we used to to do some sketchy stuff. I don't know why. Like it used to be just exciting for us, I guess, but we would like go to Eldo and like free solo, you know, and not tell our parents and whatnot. And just like we found it exhilarating. And I was 14, 15-year-olds, there was definitely some ignorance there. Like, we are light. There's no such thing as breaking holds or ripping gear. And like in our underdeveloped brains, it was easy to think, like, well, this is a 512. It may be X-rated, but it's a 512, like with a bit of top rope rehearsal, yeah, we're not gonna fall. Like, we climb like 14A, you know? And I don't think about I don't think about it like that anymore necessarily, but I definitely have some like memories of like, oh, like that could have been really bad if if a hold would have broken in that position. Like, you know, like that would have been like a heinous situation, not worth thinking about too much. But my point with talking about that is it really it's like if you're an alcoholic as a teenager, by the time you're 21, you like don't drink anymore. Or you you know, you just know how to handle your drinking. And it's like, yeah, I free-sold like Chaws, you know, and did like heinous X-rayed climbing as a 14, 15-year-old. But now I have a good assessment on risk, or like I know what risk I'm willing to take, and I've thought a lot about it.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Dude, that sounds ridiculous, but I actually think that was really cool to hear in authentic, where that's what actually is going on often behind the scenes. And it's actually what makes me scared as a parent is that I know that I did similar things where in hindsight, I'm like, bad call. Like just I didn't really get what I was doing at the time. And then, you know, you almost have something go bad, and you kind of come out of it the other side, and you're like, ooh, glad I learned that lesson the easy way, not the hard way. Uh, and it's it's scary, man. Like, and but then you do have this understanding, you kind of have to push the line and see things happen to others and hopefully make it through to understand, you know, like if someone had told you, hey, like I know you climb 514, but 512 is still hard. Your foot can slip, holds can break. Like, you can't really understand that. Like you you kind of have to experience it. And oh, dude, I hate like saying that, and maybe I shouldn't put that message out there, but you can't tell people in some ways you have to learn your yourself. You kind of do.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Totally. And I mean, yeah, we sometimes would like go into practice and be like, yeah, we, you know, we we like sold this route or whatever, and then our coaches would be like, Whoa, like you probably shouldn't do that. And we're like, Well, like, it was fine, you know, it's so easy. Like, we just didn't even get it. Um, and I mean, for what it's worth, like, especially Tanner, I mean, we got out of some pretty cool stuff. Like, Tanner, as a 16-year-old, had like done 13 plus on gear in Eldo, like 13 plus R, you know, and like that's really cool, and not a lot of people know that, and and um, I just think that definitely seeded the the path for getting into more alpine and mountain objectives. But even when I started climbing in the mountains, I kind of didn't know what I was doing, and like I had a different partner for that, which I'm happy to get into, but yeah, it's kind of just a process of not knowing what I was doing.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Well, this is also why, even if you do have a mentor, you want to start pretty easy. Like, I I remember I was doing some trad climbing, like, I don't know if it was single pitch, maybe it was multi-pitch. I was just at like Lover's Leap or whatever. And I just remember when my friend said to me, like, dude, you're ready. And I was like, Oh, like, where do I put this gear? Like, which size do I use? And I thought that there was like a definitive way to do it. Like, this is where this piece goes. This is where everyone does it. And his comment was just like, do it your own. Like, sew it up if you want to, like, just good luck. And then I did it and I did it my way. And then as he's coming up and following me, he's like, This one was bad. Like this, this would have pop, this was not a good placement, and here's why. And just this recognition that it's not binary out in the mountains, whether that's beta on boulders or you know, keeping yourself safe, it's not binary, and you have to like understand the trade-offs and yeah, figure it out. Ugh. All right, my hands are sweating, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah, and I mean I credit Tanner, like he was always like really naturally good at placing gear. I'm sure he could tell you more why, but like he he was always better at placing gear than me. So like I would often learn from him. And yeah, I mean, we climbed our first, you know, sort of like unmentored multi-pitch together, which was the naked edge, like a little bit later. And it it was an epic. It took it's like a six-pitch route, and it took us like six hours. And we, you know, we got the rope stuck on every pitch, like we we climbed it fine, but everything else was an epic. And then we did that, and that was probably the spring of freshman in high school. And so the summer going into our like the day before our sophomore first day of sophomore year, we climbed the diamond. And we didn't climb the we climbed a 511R called the yellow wall, not like the easiest route. And we both sent, but the actual like process of climbing the diamond, we went to the summit of Longspeak that day and like had never really rapped off a mountain before, and it took us 30 hours. Like most people climb the diamond in like a 12 to 15 hour day. It took us 30. And my dad was on, he had to climb Longspeak that day too. It's kind of like one of the easier routes just to like be it there and stuff. But he was like waiting for us at the car, you know, well past midnight, and we were it was like the biggest day of my life by far. Still one of the most memorable, and like learned so

Type 2 Fun and Overcoming Fear

SPEAKER_00 31:00

much, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

And so, Chris, you had a 30-hour epic, and you were like, I want more of that. That's that's what that's what you said.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

So uh Yeah, maybe after one year, I want more of it.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Yeah, tell me about you know that attraction to epics, or I think we were kind of joking about uh actually I was joking about type one and type two fun. Those are my vocabulary, but do you know I mean uh kind of the type one versus type two? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Yeah, I don't know. I think I've always been the type of person to enjoy type 2 fun, like suffering a little bit, just from like how I grew up. Um, you know, I'd always get a kick out of like going into the mountains when it was heinously snowy and cold and like trying to do some skiing in terrible conditions or like climb a mountain and just like be totally fried getting back to my house or whatever and just go on these long missions. And so I enjoyed the like put your head down and suffer. And like I definitely get that from my dad. He's good at that. And it just kind of is like something I've been naturally good at. And so although there's a fine line between like suffering and enjoying the suffering when you're done and suffering so hard that you like need a break, I would say I've always just enjoyed it and and kind of sought after it in one way or another.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

When it comes to really big objectives, even when things line up perfectly and you have good weather and you don't get super lost, your rope doesn't get stuck, like how much of it still requires just I feel like suffering is uh not the best word for it, but just like digging deep, and it's a little bit brutal. It's not just, you know, like, hey, we're romping around like, you know, having fun. Uh like yeah, is it is that always part of the equation when it comes to these really big missions?

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because you mentioned, like, oh, even when everything goes smoothly, well, that's kind of the first rule about mountain climbing, is it won't go smoothly, and you have to expect it. And I mean, dude, it's intense. Like going into the mountains when you know you're about to try something big is like it's a really intense feeling. Like you kind of feel like you're in some sort of altered state, you know. And I mean, at this point, 95% of my biggest mountain climbs have been with a different partner who I started climbing with in 2020 named Ben Sotero. And he's who I climbed Seratoria with and stuff, which was like the culmination of our partnership. And we really learned the big mountain stuff together in some ways. And dude, yeah, when we went to like try Seratoria for our first time last season, it is like really hard to describe the feeling inside of us like as we were getting ready to hike into the mountains. Like it felt like out of body, you know. You're just like, I literally cannot fathom what I'm about to go climb. It is so scary and so beyond me. Like, I don't even feel like this is real. And I think that intense of a mindset is kind of why we didn't do well that first try, or like really didn't get started. But but nonetheless, like going into the mountains in any capacity with that sort of intimidation, like it both empowers you and like is something to have to overcome. I don't know. I kind of don't know if I went on a tangent there, but no, okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

That's the I well, because I just have these like hints of in whatever climbing it is, sometimes I just walk up to something and I just can't quite grasp that I can get to the top of it. Like uh, you know, some big giant cave, some like big 40-meter limestone cave. I'm just like, am I really gonna just be on the wall for the next like 30 minutes? Like, can I do this? And if you like don't have that belief, there's something, it's really hard to make something happen when you're like swimming in doubt. But then with that said, too, like you get into this habit of like pulling on. And I assume it's like there must be something similar where you're like, you must like start hiking, and you're like, I'm supposed to go there? Are you guys sure? Like, that looks really far away. Um, and then I I mean, what what's your trick for moving forward? Do you just one foot in front of the other? Like, what what how do you deal with that mindset when it feels kind of crippling, uh, even right at the beginning?

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Totally. That's a really good question. And that's like a big skill in alpinism. Um, Colin Haley, who's like a prolific alpinist, said something that's quite simple, but actually pretty profound. He said, like, you simply have to want to go up more than you want to go down. And so there's that. You know, I really try to think about that when I'm going into these big objectives. And then to answer your question about how to overcome that, like just the gargantuan scope of what you're getting into. I mean, you you break it down. Like you said, you you really like make it smaller in your mind. Your mind can't comprehend the concept of climbing an entire 40-meter pitch at your limit, but it can like comprehend the first move and the second move, and then the first five moves, and then you're through the first five moves, and then you're on to the next ones. And so like the same thing applies for the the mountains, you know, you're like, well, I don't have to worry about the difficult climbing until I get to the base, and then I don't have to worry about the roped up climbing until I'm through the glacier, and then you're at the first pitch, and you're like, all right, one pitch at a time. You know, if we get through this pitch, then we'll reassess. If you do this pitch, we'll reassess. And then before you know it, you find yourself in a position of where you could succeed. That's really when everything, it's hard to explain, but like it becomes more I'll use the term psychedelic, not in like a druggy way, but in like a I mean psychedelic literally means like mind altering. And that's where it becomes that once you are suddenly like in firing range to be able to get something done, and you have to like take the deep breath and like go all in, you know? And it's at least for me, it's it's like not gray. It's like a significant, like you know when it's about to happen, you know, you know when you're like, well, this is where we could turn around or we could like go off the deep end and like push to the limit, you know. Yeah, it's like a big breath hold, you know, you gotta just like go into it. It's uh it's really an interesting feeling. And that's kind of when like all of the superficialities about climbing like dissolve, and you're no longer like existing in any other reality besides what you're occupied in with your partner. And that's where like you read these stories where people talk about like you become one with your partner and like one with the mountain, and it's cliche, but like there's nothing else to think about. You know, you're completely involved in what you're doing. It's kind of like when you're on a sport route or a boulder problem and you like stick that crux move, and you're like, all right, the mind is quiet now. We're doing it. Like it's pretty special.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

I appreciate you connecting that to bouldering over sport climbing because that's where my head was going, because it's really the only experience I have where it's just this intense moment, but intense in the way that everything else falls away and you're just really, really present. And you're making it sound really enticing to have these big adventures because you're expanding the the time horizons of these moments. Where I always say that like I struggle with sport climbing in the sense that when I tie in and I'm about to set off, I'm like, damn, like, am I gonna really do like absolute battle for the next 20 minutes? Like it's hard for me. I and that sounds like a ridiculous because you're talking about like maybe a 20-day adventure. But I really like struggle with just like with bouldering, or even like if it's a really single hard move, I'm like, okay, like I can show up for like two seconds, but that battle of like 20 minutes sounds really brutal. But then when you're in it, it's like this really fun thing that you're just sucked into. And the idea that you could be sucked into an experience over hours, days, I don't even know, weeks, like is I don't know, it's enticing to hear, man.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Yeah, it's also fairly timeless, though. That's the thing. You know, you could be on a sport climb for 20 minutes battling for your life post-crux or on a boulder problem for 10 seconds post-crux, and it feels the same, at least to me. Like, you know, your your mind that's rooted in reality knows that the time is different, but like it doesn't really matter, you know, it's it's all the same. Like you're just like completely occupied and nothing else exists beyond that. And so when you're up there for three days doing the same thing, like there are highs and lows, but I mean it's all about like perspective and zooming in and out. Like there are also highs and lows in the 10-second sprint to the end of the boulder problem, you know, where you're like taking a breath to release tension and you're like coring up to do one more move, and you you're not thinking about it, you're just doing it, and that's kind of the same thing of like, yeah, you get to the top of a pitch and you're like focusing on resting your body as much as possible so you can like get psyched for the next pitch while your partner comes up to the bullet, you know,

The Southeast Ridge Of Cerro Torre

SPEAKER_00 39:31

things like that.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

So take me to Serotore because when I made that comment, like, oh dude, I saw you did uh you know the triple crown and you got a lot of publicity. You're like, yeah, got a lot of publicity. The Southeast Ridge of Serotore was harder, more badass, just sounded like it was bigger, in your opinion, uh, than that that latest sin. What was special about this place? Like, uh, yeah, let's use that as an example of heading out to the mountains.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Totally. I mean, the Southeast Ridge to me and to my partner Ben is like my climbing partner that's um it's the most badass line I've ever laid eyes on from like a just inspirational standpoint. I mean, like I said, so Saratori is like it's a 10,000 foot elevation mountain, but it's a 5,000 foot spire. Like it's absolutely mind-bending. I mean, it's like if you put half dome on top of El Cap, and that doesn't sound real, but it is that big. And the ridge is literally it it looks like an exponential function. Like it it curves up in steepness until the very top, and it gets harder and harder and harder until the very top. And so it just demands more commitment the higher you go, the more well-roundedness the higher you go. And like I said, it's simultaneously the line of strength and the line of weakness. Like it just makes sense that you would go up that ridge. It's actually the safest line on Serre because it's a ridge. So like those mountains aren't that safe because there's ice on top of them. And so and like Patagonia has pretty intense temperature swings. Um, but the ridge is fairly safe because it isn't prone to as much uh falling debris. And I mean, Ben had been to Patagonia two times prior to the first trip we made together, which is my first time going into the big mountains and like seeing anything bigger than the diamond, really. And when we went on that trip, we climbed Aconcagua, which is the tallest mountain in South America. It's almost 7,000 meters. It's like quite easy from a technical standpoint, but it's high altitude. And then we went from there to Patagonia, and the first thing we did was climb Fitzroy, which is like the tallest mountain in Shelton range, and uh you know, kind of like Fitz and Torrey are the two like proud ones. And that was like the most mind-blowing experience ever. And a big part of that first trip was like opening or closing a door of seeing if like the alpine stuff is really for me or if not. And you know, after climbing Fitzroy, like the next thing, the thing that's more impressive in every s way is Serratore. And so it was natural. It was like, yeah, now we climb the ridge. And we took a year off from Patagonia to prepare and just like learn, develop the minds a little bit, and then went back and that was the focus for this last winter. And it's pretty amazing. Like it it feels magical to even say that it worked out. The day we summited Serratore, two other parties summited like within two hours of our summit. And that was the only time the Southeast Ridge got climbed the whole season.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Is that because of weather or is it just because of the difficulty?

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Yeah, because of the logistics. Yeah, because like it's just such a specific you need so many things to line up. Like you need the the weather to line up, obviously. Um you need the freezing temperature of the snow to line up, because if it's too warm, then it's like incredibly dangerous. But if it's too cold, then it's like everything's covered in ice that you can't climb through, like verglass ice, which is basically like a millimeter of like you just can't do anything with it. It's just impossible. And then if the bad weather cycle before that weather window was too bad, then the the ridge will be covered in rhyme, like covered in ice that's unclimbable. That's the that's the trick about the Torres. And so you need it to be like a fairly chill, bad weather window. And then when the good weather window comes, it needs to be for a certain amount of days with a certain temperature, certain amount of wind, all of that. And you know, I wanted to free climb the southeast ridge, and so in order to like have a try for that, it's even another level of like logistical complexity because it needs to be warm enough to be free climbable and cold enough to not have the mountain be coming down on top of you. Um so it's a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

That image of you at the very top on like a little kind of like ice thing. Uh I don't know what, yeah, just like I don't know, ice on top of the very, very tippy top. I just Like have this image of getting up there and then seeing that and being like, ah, like I can't get to the top because there's just like ice there. It looks so sketchy, man. It looks sketchy to just head up that thing compared to like rock, where I'm like, oh, well, yeah, you can protect it. But you know, just thinking of like all of the conditions having to work out where it's like, it needs to be cold enough that this is solid, but uh warm enough so that you don't have that crappy little layer of ice that you can't grab or use ice axes on, I'm guessing, or ice picks. Did you get to the top of that and then just look at that little last bit to the summit and just be like, is this even solid? Like because it looked so sketchy. Am I wrong on there?

SPEAKER_00 44:36

So the Tories are interesting. I mean, what what makes the Tories appealing? And I say the Tories, there's three in that chain, seratory being the biggest. And like what makes them appealing is that at the top of all of them, they have like permanent, well, melting, but so far permanent rhyme mushrooms, which is like a phenomenon unique to the Andes because they're so close to the ocean that it basically is like wind, like rain that freezes onto the mountain and just forms these like crazy, like Dr. Susian, like it's it's really hard to describe, but they're like crazy daggers and like waves and the ice and stuff. It's just like winter wonderland up there. And those rhyme mushrooms can like be unstable. But the southeast ridge basically swaps the difficulty of the rhyme mushrooms for like a rock climbing. Because like Seratore is all about the head wall, which is like the last 500 feet, is like the steepest part of the mountain. And if you look at a picture of it, it's obvious. Like it just like gets steeper and steeper, and then it's vertical on all sides, and that's what makes it so cool. Um, the other side, which is the other popular route, it's called the Ragni, which was the line of the first ascent, that has like an incredibly difficult ice pitch at the very top to get over the rhyme because it's like overhanging. Um, but but the southeast ridge climbs the head wall, which is like the vertical rock. But once you get above the head wall, you're on like lower angle rhyme. And I mean, you could do it without crampons. Like you could basically just walk to the top from there. It's like not even really the last pitch, it's kind of like the victory romp.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

All right. Well, it makes me feel better that it looked out of place to me that it is some kind of unique thing. Because I was just like, that looks so strange. It just didn't, yeah, it didn't look like what I was used to uh when I would think of a summit. But uh I I want to hear more about the 500-foot, or do you say 500 meter or 500 foot head wall?

SPEAKER_00 46:24

500-foot headwall. It's probably four or sixty-meter pitches, or so maybe, yeah, yeah, it's it's quite big, but like in the context of the whole ridge, it's not that big. I mean, it's the last five or so pitches after a like of a 25-pitch route, of which has already started after 1,500 feet of like lower angle climbing, which is still fully roped up climbing. Um, so it's like a 4,000-foot route. And like, so if you're if you're trying to free climb the ridge, there is a 513 pitch like halfway up the mountain on the ridge. Um, there's only one, but besides that, it's like largely 5'11 and 510 climbing with like some hard ice climbing, but then the head wall is like the undisputed crux because it's like basically to get to to access the head wall, you climb the hardest ice pitch on the ridge, which is like it's like a vertical off width coated in ice. So it's it's like you can't really swing your tools and you're squeezing and it's like 60 meters long, uh vertical. And so for me as a rock climber, that was like the moment of truth. But then that deposits you at the base of the head wall, which is where the rock is not quite as good, and the head wall is like the most logistically complex because there's always running water coming off the ice from the at the summit, and so it's like pretty much wet, and it's these big booming flakes that that are frozen onto the wall. Like they're not they're not solid, but you have to climb them. So I think the pitch breakdown is like 5'9x, 5'11 plus X, 5'11 plus X, 5'12R. Like the last pitch is like 5'12R, and so you have to be like on your game to the very end. And if you're not free climbing the lower section, if you've aided some to get up there, then that is the most difficult pitch of the route, is that last 512. And so it's like it's not over till it's over, you know.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Dude, 5'12 at the very highest point after Yeah, that sounds heinous, dude. Uh, so did you free climb all the pitches or like you know, did you have to aid through it? Like, just how did it actually go for you?

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Yeah, so I I mean I really, really wanted to try to free climb the ridge because it's just I mean, not only is it the most beautiful line in Patagonia, in my opinion, but it's also very historical. And like, I mean, there's a book about the history of the ridge called The Tower by Kelly Cortes, and like part of that history is David Lama making the first free ascent of the ridge, which has only been repeated by Josh Wharton and like his party. So it has two ascent two free ascents, and I you know wanted to try and do it myself, and I didn't end up getting it done. But what I'm really proud of is that like I almost on-sided it, like I fell at the very end of the 513 pitch, and and I mean I I like on-sited the rest, and I I did do some aid moves through the ice chimney because I had been like I wasn't free climbing, like I hadn't sent the 513 pitch, so I it was more about like getting up the mountain at that point. But anyway, like I'm proud enough of my performance to where I don't really consider it like uh unsuccessful, but I mean that the in the middle of the pitch, there's it's called a llama ret, and there's either like a C2, so like same as the hard hardest aid climbing on like the nose, not very difficult, C2 or 13A, and it's like a 13A trad pitch with like a run out, like you you know, you're climbing like way above your last piece of gear on this like a ret. And I gave a really good onsite burn, like I got to like the last move, and um, you know, going ground up and all that, and I fell, took like a you know, probably 30, 40 foot fall onto like a nut. And then, you know, we had our little alpine climbing rope because we were going all super light, and I tried it again and fell again. And this is all like you know, you have to consider that you're you're racing a lot of things, you know. You can't just like sit around and project a pitch, you know, because you're you're trying to get to camp before it gets dark, you're trying to like conserve energy because you still have freaking 15 pitches to go. You know, it's just in the mountains, it's not so much about free climbing, especially in Patagonia. Like, that's not the prevailing ethic, you know, it's about getting to the top. Anyway, I tried it that second time, and when I fell in the crux, which is like a it's probably a V6 slab boulder on this like a red, like pretty featureless granite, like something you'd find in Yosemite, except there'd be like two bolts. Um anyway, I fell and like because you fall around the corner of your gear, like my rope like desheathed, and it was like a huge core shot, like super sketchy. Like I almost cut the rope, you know? And so obviously I was like, Yeah, I'm not trying again. Like, we're we're going past this, and that was the end of my bid. Um, so a bummer, but like obviously just not worth it.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

Well, you didn't die, that was a good part, and you still got to the top. Uh wait, did you keep climbing on that rope though? I've made it.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

I mean, yeah, we we cut it right then and there, and like it was like the right by my knot, so it wasn't like the rope got super short, and it was an 80 meter, so it was then probably a 75 meter, totally fine for and we had a tagline, so yeah. I mean, I'm glad like glad it wasn't worse, but that was like sketchy, and and that's the type of thing that could happen. Like, you know, it's it's not like uh we did anything wrong. It was just like, yeah, rope got cut from the fall and like just not worth it, you know. Because it's funny because in order to like have done that, to like basically like try to free it after that happened, I would have aided the pitch next to it, um, which is C2, hung a top rope, and then like sussed it out like headpoint style, top roping at chalking holds, pulled the rope and then gone for another try. And you know, that's that's like a session right there on a pitch. And you know, you're at this point, like we're 10 pitches deep into the day, having to climb another 10. You know, it's like it's just not logical. Not on a mountain like that.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

God, that's epic. I'm curious just because I got a bunch of questions from listeners about kind of ethics and big wall style. I know this is like super nitty-gritty, but it's like, do you did you feel like you had to like pull the gear before you headed up for like your second try? Or like how how does that work where you know if you're want to say that you free climbed it, like do you have to also place all the gear on lead?

SPEAKER_00 52:37

Yeah, that goes back into like big wall ethics a little bit. On the because I couldn't get to the anchors on that pitch, like without going around it or sending the pitch, I just like pulled the rope and and like climbed up leading or play clipping, excuse me, the the gear that was already in place, and then like having a couple more pieces for if I did get to the top or whatever. And that tends to be my ethic on big walls too, and like most people's ethics is kind of like I think the most pure ethic, which is what Connor Hursen does, and he's informed me of this, is like if it's a bolt, it's fair to have a draw on it. And if it's a piece of gear that's not fixed, you should place it yourself. And after hearing him say that, like this past spring, I kind of I align with that. I just hadn't heard like such a clear way to put it. Um, but I think that's a fair ethic. But I mean, in general, like no, a lot of big wall climbing, especially in like Yosemite, people will try a pitch and like and then pingpoint it as if you know they just like leave their gear.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

But that's also like like if you could just press a magical button and all the gear got you know put onto your harness, uh, you know, so you could do another red point attempt. That's like different than being, you know, on the side of the mountain and having to like somehow figure out how to pull your gear for another attempt and waste like an hour. Like that's like, you know, the logistics there are kind of different. So I don't want, I just don't want it to seem like I'm trying to take you down a peg for giving you crap about that. I just want, you know, people are curious because they don't, you know, it's like an area they don't understand. Uh okay, taking a massive fall on the crux pitch sounds terrifying but reasonable. Uh, but then all those other pitches you're talking about on the head wall, the way you described it, Chris, like made it sound like you can't fall. Like when you're talking about like these flakes that are glued on from ice, not actually glued on, but you're like stuck on with you know, ice that they're 5'9 X. I heard a lot of Xs. When you are on these things, like can you fall? I mean, it sounds like on the well-protected 513, or maybe not well protected, but better rock down there. Like, what's your mindset when you're on these head walls? Like, can you even fall?

SPEAKER_00 54:49

No, I wouldn't say so. There, there's one, like, probably the reason I said the 12 minus isn't maybe X-rays because the crux, which is right off the ballet, you could fall on. Like, it's the most safe part of the head wall, which is kind of nice. I mean, that's like convenient. You still don't want to. It's like not ideal. But then all the besides that, it's just not good enough rock. And although like the wall is really steep, there's probably nothing to hit, um, even if you did rip a couple pieces, it's not something that you like consider an option because a broken ankle up there, I mean, you're 4,000 feet above above the ground and 15 miles from town. Like, it's really not reasonable, especially in a party of two. There's that factor. And I want to point out, because I think this is very important to mention, is that when we climb the ridge, not due to our own planning, but just by chance, there was a party of guy, like IMFGA guides above us climbing, and then a party of Italian guides below us, two parties of three on the mountain besides us. It makes a big, big difference, like seriously. And I will say, like, I don't have any shame in in this, but we would not have sent if that crutch wasn't there. Not because they like helped us in any way, like they didn't, you know, take our rope up for us, or like I still led everything and and my partner did as well, but just having that like you can like push it a little more. You're not alone on the mountain, you know. So anyway, that's just worth mentioning because that makes a big difference in alpine climbs like this. And uh, but yeah, like on the head wall, I mean I led all those pitches, and it's like you you don't you don't consider falling, no. And that's where like all of my past climbing skills, like that's that's why the ridge is such a beautiful goal, in my opinion, is because you you just have to be good at everything. You know, you have to be able to climb to free it, you have to be able to climb 513, which entails like bouldering technical v6 over your gear. You have to be able to ice climb, like waterfall ice five, which is vertical ice, and you have to be able to climb 512 like on site without falling at the very end of your bid. And on top of all that, you have to have the skills of like getting to the wall, rapping off the mountain. It just demands every single capacity that I've developed as a climber to the maximum. And like when it all comes together, it's

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SPEAKER_00 57:08

sick.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who helped make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else. And those episodes are ad-free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay, back to the pod. Oh, that's awesome. I want to hear more about wrapping off the mountain, but I I want to get into some of the just like the technical difficulty on something like 513, where I think people may even hear and think like you did that 14 or 15, where you're like, oh, well, you climb 14A. Like, who cares about climbing a 12x? Like, but 512 or 513 are still hard, but what makes it so hard to climb something like a 513 on Serotori? Like, just what was that experience like doing a 513 there versus I don't know, just at like your local crag where I'm sure you've on-sided many a 513?

SPEAKER_00 58:22

Sure. Yeah, I mean, for starters, it's completely on-site. Like there's no chalk, you don't even know where the gear goes. Like there, there's like some videos. There, I mean, there's a Red Bull movie of David Llama climbing it. So I definitely like used that, like, you know, use that.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

You on your phone, like on YouTube on the side of the had you downloaded it and you were like at the ballet looking?

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Uh I hadn't, but I mean like I'd watched the movie a bunch and like known like where he placed his last piece. So I guess it's not an onsite even, which is like you know, something to consider from the purely rock climbing standpoint. But but besides that, you know, you're you're like figuring it out on the fly. And then the things that make it harder is like first of all, it's it's like a granite 13A, uh like a granite 13A arette, which even if it were at the crag, like it would be kind of trickier than like a steep limestone thing with jugs that you can see. And you know, it's like it'd be like Yosemite 13A, which is much different than than like a 13A and at your crag or whatever. And then like I said, you know, you're you're you're halfway up the mountain. Like you've already put in at that point to be exact, we had done a full like eight-hour day of hiking, um, probably like 12 miles, and like 4,000 feet of elevation gain. And then you get a cold night of sleep, and then we did, you know, woke up really early and did another like 4,000 feet of gain the next day, and then climbed 1,500 foot like snow and ice route, basically, to get to the base of the arette, um, the base of the ridge.

unknown 59:49

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

And then from there, it's 10 pit like that's pitch 11 on the ridge. So it's 10 pitches of like up to 5'11 big pitches, like 60 meter pitches. That's the thing about Patagonia, is like you you may see the topo and see that's a 14-pitch route. You're like, oh, it's maybe relatively not that long. But every single pitch is 60 meters. So it's like a 30-pitch route in Yosemite, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

Why is it different like that there? Why is that just like the the style or the ethic?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

Mostly because it's just uh like if if you're rapping, I mean you wrap in like 60 meter blocks, like it gets you up and down a mountain faster, simply. And you know, for example, the llama ret being like a 513 pitch, it's not 60 meters, it's like 20. You know, not all pitches are that long, especially on the ridge. The ridge is like people jokingly refer to it as like a sp a sporty route for Patagonia, because it's just like it has more fixed gear and stuff than like other routes, and it's uh maybe not as crack climby. There's a lot more face climbing and just like general, general trivialities, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

So, I mean, dude, 13A granite aret with no chalk or beta on gear on site sounds freaking impossible. Uh, because I think I think people would be surprised what that's like even on 511. Um, it is just it takes a lot more than just strength. Like when you're we're saying something about like limestone and jugs, I just know like I live around a lot of techie granite and I climb better on like European limestone and the grade that I can like warm up on on European limestone compared to Yesemi granite or Tahoe or Sierra granite, I should say, is completely different because it's just such a different kind of climbing where you can just kind of rely on strength and good holds, just kind of make it happen. You know, like if you're a lot stronger than the route on limestone, you can just kind of make it happen. But the technical requirements of thin vertical granite are yeah, requires a a lot out of you. And uh I was gonna ask about knowing like what gear to bring. Like, I I don't know how many days you guys were out there, but like how do you pack? Like, do you bring did you bring a knee pad, Chris? Did you like, yeah, like what shoes did you bring? Like what how do you decide like what to pack um for an expedition like this?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:12

Yeah, that's a good question too. I mean, it so depends on what you're climbing, and like a lot of that is experience. You know, there are people that have been climbing in the mountains for 30 years that are far more dialed with how to pack a backpack for five days in the extreme mountains than me. And I am far more dialed now than I was my first trip to Patagonia, just knowing how much food to bring, like what you can run off of. And I think a big part of it is like sort of testing yourself with like um like minimizing basically what you bring and like going into the mountains and being like, oh, we kind of like we were really epic because we didn't bring this or that, like we should bring that next time, or like we didn't need to bring this, so we should bring that. And like we brought for the ridge just based on the fact that we'd theoretically like we we planned to spend one night on the ridge itself, like from the coal to the summit, and for that night we brought a tent and one sleeping bag, like a 32-degree sleeping bag that we were gonna share. And like, because it was my super light one, didn't even consider bringing two. We brought two to the to the base throughout, and we didn't really end up using the tent. Like, we used it as a bivy sack because of our bivy was it was so bad, but like it's just yeah, and then you know, for for food, it was like as minimal as you could possibly get while still like eating something every couple hours. And you try to be like nutritious about it, but it's just it's a matter of weight, you know, and like ease too. You don't want to like sit around boiling a bunch of water to make a certain like meal if you can just like slam three Oreo cookies and you know it's the same amount of calories and like and just roll with it. And yeah, I mean for climbing shoes, like ideally I would have had a pair of like katanas or you know, even just normal TC pros and like gosh, I don't know, like I don't think a knee pad would have helped in that case, but like a lot of chalk per se, and like you know, yada yada. Um but as it is, you're climbing, I was climbing in TC Extremes, which are the like crazy TC pros with with gators, not the best for hard granite climbing because they're softer, and you just kind of have to make do. And like besides that pitch, I was climbing every other pitch with my ice boots and ice axes like clipped to my harness, like you know, and you have your rack of gear, like you know, and like the follower has the backpack, they're jugging usually. Like, that's how we climbed it, is like you you the leader leads and then you fix the rope, unless it's like a pitch that you have to follow for like because it's traversing or something, but um, and then they yeah, either follow or jug with the backpack, and then yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

So what did you was it Oreos? And and we were joking before we clicked record about putting just instant coffee in your mouth and then adding water. You said, no way, man. We like we take the we do take the time to make a nice warm cup of coffee.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

Yeah, it's funny because there are like certain things, and it depends on your partner too, but like with Ben and I's partnership, like Ben's Brazilian, he's big on his coffee, even if it's not good coffee, and it's like really important to us that we like wake up in the morning and the first thing we do is like get some warm water going for hydration and just to like start the day with some coffee. So that's like a must. Thankfully, coffee's not that heavy, and you know, you're just melting ice, so it's not like you're bringing water up there. But for food, for the three days that we spent on the ridge, because you know, I bring like more food for the very beginning and the very end, like basically when I'm just like hiking. But for the for the intense days, as it were, I would have and then had the same more or less. It's like wake up, I had a sleeve of uh, you know, like six Oreos, and then it would go a couple hours, and so that's at like four or five a.m. And you know, mid morning would eat basically like either like a just a normal granola bar or like a Hershey's bar. Like just something like that. And then a bag of peanuts for lunch. And then another like candy or granola bar for post-lunch snack. And then we shared like one backpacker meal for dinner. And they're not backpacker meals that you get in the States. The ones in Argentina are like 500 cal. So it was like rough. And then we'd have like uh basically like uh these things called alpha whores, which are like an Argentinian dessert. It's just like a cookie, I guess. Like a really good cookie for dessert. And that was it. And I think I like the math of like roughly is you know, if you're burning anywhere from six to ten thousand calories per day, you're like eating fifteen hundred about it's like really bad. Like it's funny. I came back from Patagonia really, really heavy, which may be surprising, but that's because when you're in town, you're just gorging on everything because you're like you've starved yourself. So you may not even lose that much weight in the mountains because you're not out for a crazy long amount of time, but then you just come back and you're like, I need to eat.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

Yeah, that that math doesn't math, dude. Like I had an Oreo. I like when you said for lunch you had like a bag of peanuts. I was like, huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

Yeah. Well, because peanuts, from a nutritional standpoint, peanuts have uh like more fat than anything else that we were eating. And like, you know, sugar-coated peanuts have some fat, some sugar, some carbs, and a little bit of protein. It's like what you can get.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:25

Brutal. Uh tell me more about wrapping down or or if you had to like bail how how that would look. I just like don't understand the logistics of yeah, wrapping down a giant mountain like that, like how it works.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

Totally. I mean, it depends a lot on the route again. The ridge, part of the reason it's an enticing goal for me, being like so close to the limit of what I was able to climb at the time, is like because the you wrap the ridge from the summit. So that was actually Ben and I's like mentality going into it. We told ourselves, like our little motto was like, let's just go and see. Like, we can always just start wrapping if it gets heinous. You know, it's that is the nice thing about the ridge. Now, there's plenty of routes in Patagonia, maybe even more than half, that you don't wrap the route you're going up. And so like when we climbed Fitzroy, it was like strangely more committing than the ridge, even though it was like far, far easier of a route, because you get to a point where it's actually easier to go up and over the summit and down the other side, still rapping, but like that was uh especially as it was like my first climb in Patagonia three years ago. Like I had no experience. Like, I just remember there's a moment when we're like, if we climb this section, particular traversing section, like we're going, we have to go to the top. And it's like a it's very freeing because you kind of like lose all ability to choose. Like you, you know, you have to relinquish control and you have one task, one task, which is get off the mountain via going over the top. Like the summit doesn't matter, nothing matters. You're just trying to get down at that point. And like the ridge is nice because you can kind of just turn around when you want, but nonetheless, like wrapping the ridge, I mean, took us two days to wrap. Like, we we summited, we climbed the last seven pitches to the summit on that day, and then we wrapped back to the coal at the start of the route, and so that's 25 repels, and then we did another 10 the next day to get down, like as the weather window was closing to get down to the glacier, and then from there you're you're hiking. And I I think it's funny, like, I I've I don't know how it would apply to any other mountain ranges that are big because I haven't been there, but I imagine it's similar. In Patagonia, I I separate the terrain into like five levels of seriousness, all which like basically as you go up a level, it becomes more committing and and just more real. And so, like, level one is the tourist trail to the lakes, you know, the first 10 kilometers, like whatever, you know, you could totally like slip and break your ankle on that trail, and you're totally fine. Level two, you're past the lakes, which everyone hikes to, and then you're on like more significant, like you know, some third class, like some talus, like you know, and you're just further back there, so you like you wouldn't want to hurt yourself, but and then and there's like maybe on the approach like a place or two where if you fell in the very wrong place, you'd like go off a cliff, but like it's it's generally still like nothing crazy. And then level three is when you get on the glaciers, and it's like, all right, you're roped up, you know, you could fall in a crevasse if you're not careful, like you have to be aware of changing conditions and stuff, and you're at that point far enough back to where like if you get injured, it's kind of serious. And then level four is like the lower, like basically approaching to the base of the spires can be like climbing in its own right, like moderate climbing, but nonetheless. So, like for Torrey, like level four is getting to the base of the southeast ridge. Like you for sure are climbing, like you will die if you fall and you're not roped up, and like you're having to wrap down that stuff, but it's still like pretty easy. Like you could like theoretically get down that stuff in like heinous weather if you really needed to. And and like if you got hurt up there, it wouldn't be life-threatening. And then level five is like you're on the mountain, you're doing it, and so it's always like you know, you're just like biting your time on the way down, you know, like at the summit, you are at the the tip, like you are level fiving, and then you like wrap down to the coal and you're like, thank god, we're back to level four now. And then you get to the glacier and you're like, all right, level three, and it just like gets more and more safe, and like that's all you're thinking about on the way down, is just that descending into like safer and safer territory, and like it's really stressful. Yeah, it's really, really stressful. Like, I mean, when we were on Tory, like the big thing in Patagonia is like it's not a matter of if, but like when the ropes get stuck, and they will get stuck. It's like you're just praying that you can find a way to go get it so that you don't like have to cut your rope and then like just start to epic seriously, and like thankfully, I've never had to cut my rope in the mountains, but uh, we probably got our rope stuck five times on the way down the ridge, and like I had to reclimb-you know, you're like 30 hours deep into the day, and you're like, damn it, I have to like reclimb a pitch in my like mountain boots, and like I dropped a cramp on on the way down, it just unclipped from my harness. I don't know how, and like I had just climbed a pitch to retrieve the stuck rope, and like this was right, it was about to get dark. We're like still eight or nine pitches above camp, had been on the go for 24 hours, you know, and and I just like watched it like bounce once and twice and then off the cliff forever. I was like, oh my god. Fortunately, it wasn't like life-threatening because you're just like able to rap until you're on the glacier and then you're walking, so it's like a good place to lose a cramp on, relatively. But it's just like it just you don't need that extra stress. And the rope got stuck a couple more times, and anyway, I'm I'm rambling, but you get the idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:39

No, dude. I appreciate you taking me there and giving me a little vicarious living of all the epics. Like I you said something about how that's number one rule is that like things will go wrong. Like you will drop something, your ropes will get stuck. Yeah, you have all

Chris's Approach To Managing Risks

SPEAKER_01 1:12:55

these things. You talked about these levels and level five. You were in what you call level five for a long time. I just want to better understand how you think about risk. And you know, I asked you that question like, can you fall on all these pitches that were on the headline? You're just like, no, no, like that that's not an option. And you know, I don't know you super well, Chris, but I uh you don't strike me as someone who's cavalier about risk or danger or your life, uh and that you know you're just out there you know doing the thing you love. But how do you understand that risk in relation to just climbing? Like if it's really that serious and you're in that serious a position for so long a time that you know, aren't you worried something bad will happen?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:37

I think for me, and I mean everyone has a different way of facing risk, but I do a lot of thinking prior to climbs like that, a lot of worrying, anxiety, you know, nights where I don't sleep, stuff like that. And, you know, that's when in my mind you get the fear out. When I'm up on the head wall, you don't even think about it. Like I'm not you know in your mind you can't fall, but it's not helpful to to like consider that or think about like, oh, if I fall right now, what's gonna happen? Like it's you're focused on the climbing, you know, and it's like cliche, like you know, I know you've done a podcast with Honnold, which I've listened to, and like he has a similar idea about it, and it's like it's pretty logical, strangely. Like when you're in a position like that, you assess the situation on a on a quick basis, and if you can fall safely, then you accept it and you try until you fall. And that was my case on the 13A pitch. I know, yeah, I have good gear, I can fall here, so I'm gonna try as hard as I can. Like there's nothing else to it, even though it'll be a horrifying fall, like I can do it. And then on the head wall, it's like I can't fall here. Obviously, it could happen, but you don't consider that. You're just like, I'm not gonna fall. Like, I'm gonna try my best to not let that happen and like not think about it happening and just focus on the climbing and like staying solid and like climbing in a way, like it's you know, you change the way you climb when you know you can't fall, you're more cautious, you're testing grips, you're like really at least like if you climb choss enough, you get good at like knowing the weight percentage between your four limbs, and so you're constantly thinking about that of like okay, I'm transferring, transferring, transferring, but like if this hold rips, I'm still on my other three limbs, and then you just you climb carefully, kind of like a cat would. And then I kind of think it all comes undone on the way down, like you still have no choice but to accept that you like you know, you're when you're rapping, you're like, Yeah, the rap anchor might come out right now. There's nothing I can do about that. And that's kind of the scariest part. Like, it's really easy for your mind to get frayed on the way down, and like that's why like me personally, I tend to get more frustrated and just like have like outbursts more on the way down because I'm like working on that as like a skill, but to be completely transparent, like I definitely like lose my cool a little bit more on the way down because I'm like I'm scared, and like it's harder for my mind to accept that like if the wrap anchor comes out, there's there's just nothing I can do to prevent that. It's not in my control, and it kind of sucks to know that and still have to do it. But at the same time, you just do it, you know. You're like, well, and we we have like systems for backing up those anchors as best we can.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:09

But like can you explain how what a rap anchor looks like up there?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:13

I mean, it depends. On the ridge, there's a lot of like bolts from the 70s, like heinous bolts that are like connected by a paracord and stuff, and then like mostly it's just like old fixed gear in like cracks or like slung horns and whatnot, and they do come out and people die. Like it it is happens. I wouldn't say frequently, but it happens, like maybe once every couple years, you know. And it's yeah, it's really stressful. And like, you know, what I do is like, and what I've done with all my partners who I've climbed in the mountains with is like you send the person with the backpack or whoever's just heavier down first with a backup piece in, like a deadman piece, and and you kind of like test the anchor, and then second goes down, takes the piece out, you know, it's the best you can do, and it's still really stressful.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:56

That makes sense though. That that really does make sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:58

And I want to point out what is so impressive to me is like there's these things in Patagonia like the Seratoria Traverse or the Fitzroy Traverse, where you're like doing much, much more climbing. And like when Tommy and Alex did the Fitzroy traverse, like they simul wrapped, which is like in way more dangerous. And it's also the only way you can do that type of climbing. Like, you it's the only way you can move through the mountains that quickly is like to simul wrap with Griegeries, and and like that's how they climb, that's how Honnold and Colin Haley climbed the Tory Traverse in a day is by simul wrapping, and like that is one of those things where I I don't know. I would love to do that, but it just like might not be worth it, you know, because you're just putting double the weight on the anchor and you can't back it up.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:40

I totally understand this idea where you get the you know, you said something like get the fear out before, because I am one of those people where when I've done more dangerous stuff, and this actually was even when I used to like race uh cars and go-karts and stuff, which was dangerous when I was a kid, and I would get really nervous and scared, and then you'd put me in the seat and I'd be fine. I I mean, even that with me in competitions, it was like that too, where you get super scared, like I threw up before nationals, and then you pull on the wall and you're just climbing. And it's actually one of the things about climbing just to connect it back to what we were talking about before, where it's kind of just pure, like you're just here, like you are logical. You're like, I can't fall here. So then you climb like you can't fall. It's just that simple. But now, Chris, you are, you know, 5,000 miles away from it and you're telling me about this. Like, do you feel differently? So there's the logical side in the sense of when you're in it and you are just making that assessment in a clearest way as possible because you have to. You're just can I fall or can I not? Is this chossy? How do I climb on this? You know, how can I make this the best it can be? Do you feel any differently now when you're describing it to me, you know, far away, and you're like, man, that sounds sketchy, dude. Like, you know, like how you think about it from this position, because that's something that, you know, when people ask me about Honald, is it super wild way he's doing? How risky is it? And I think the thing that always worries me when I've done stuff that you know has no margin for error is that I do worry about like something breaking that you don't expect it to, or like a snake being in the crack and biting you, or something that like is so outside your realm of things you can control. And that's always what's so scary about the mountains this year. You talked about how the ridge is safer because you don't have the debris coming down on you as much. Yeah, like how do you think about those risks that you can't control uh now when you're far away from it?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:33

Yeah, I mean, it's super cathartic. Like, that's at the end of the day, why people walk away from alpine climbing, and even more so than like free soloing on semi-solid rock or whatever. It's like why people retire because you you suppress so much fear during those ascents, like your body telling you it doesn't want to be there. Or you know, it may not want to, but like in some sense, you're like scared and you suppress it, and and like you have to process it one way or another, whether you want to or not, and like that's why some alpinists have like pretty severe PTSD, especially if they've lost a lot of partners. And like it's it's kind of the hard thing to reconcile with this game, but as it relates to me at my age now, like it's kind of funny. Like, I I have this like dichotomy between like my alpine ascent and like when I'm not in that moment where it's like, did I really do that? Like, did I like thinking about the ridge now makes me scared? Like, how was I able to do that? But then when you're like there and you've put in the work to be there and spent the money, all that, you know, you you're you're like locked in kind of. But when I'm not in it, it's it's all about like balancing when to take the risk for me. And like I mentioned in my past, I used to be risky all the time, maybe not as risky as climbing Serratore, but like I used to go soloing on my breaks from school or whatever, and like do these sketchy trad routes that are like two stars without care in the world, and just like even more recently, and by by that I mean like the last couple of years, pursuing these like single-pitched trad routes that are dangerous, I like I'm like less and less interested in that because if I am planning on doing something that's dangerous uh or intense, like at the end of the year or something, then I'm like I kind of don't want to take risk when I'm not there. You know, like I know like I I might go back to Patagonia this winter and like I have some things there that I know are gonna be scary and risky. And so like I I just don't need to to take risk until then. Or like, you know, the triple crown is like fairly risky, and it was like I guess like dangerous enough to where you're thinking about it. And like the rest of my climbing in the valley wasn't risky, you know, like it was just like all about doing that. And once that's done, like I'm not taking any more risk. And and what I'm getting to is like I've stopped pursuing like not really worth it to me, like trad objectives around my like locally anymore because I just like don't need that in my life. Like I don't want to be scared unless it's for something that I'm really, really interested in doing and is really worth it. And when you've worked up a goal like that in your mind, it's easier to get there and be like, all right, like this is risky, but I've prepared for it, I've divided my time, and now it's time to take that risk. And like it's just yeah, it's just all about like what's worth it to you. And you know, Josh Wharton, I've climbed with him one time and he gave me like the best wisdom. He said, risk is a bank account, and you like make withdrawals, and you gotta know when to make those withdrawals and for what, and like Saratori is a really big withdraw. But like, I'd rather make a big withdrawal for something that could be a good payout than make a million little tiny withdrawals by soloing 5-7 around Eldo, like near my house on any given afternoon or whatever. And it's funny to wrap it back to like hard rock climbing, it m is what makes me psyched when I am not in these faraway places on these big mountains. Like, I get back and I'm just so freaking excited to like clip bolts and like boulder two feet off the ground and like try my hardest without any fear in the world. Like it makes me perform better than I used to because I have less of a care about the outcome. I'm just like, oh, it feels so good to like try my prod and like give a 10 out of 10 fight, and if I don't do it, then it's just fine. I get to try it again. Like I used to get really nervous before a red point effort, and now it's like I still like to perform and I get nervous, but it just doesn't have the same meaning that it did. And it's like it's safe. I like it. You know, I just I get to climb.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:39

That makes me think of something Honnold said that really stuck with me. I can't remember if it was when I did a podcast with him or when he was you know doing one of his many speaking gigs, but with something along the idea that when you take these risks with your life, it really makes you tone down all the other things that people are so stressed about. Like, oh, you missed your plane. You might miss your plane. You know, you they might be sold out of your favorite cereal. And it's just like kind of a little more gratitude for just the everyday. And and Chris, I just want to clarify that when I'm talking about this with you and asking you about risk and how you handle it, I don't want you to think that I'm like trying to talk you out of it or saying it's not worth it. It's actually the opposite where I find it so inspiring. I'm so drawn to mountains, to those experiences, to the intensity, and you know, just hearing from someone else and their introspection and how they handle it is, you know, just good for me to hear and understand. Like, I don't want you to think that I'm saying negative things about the risk. I'm more just like fascinated, man. Like, because I I was like you where I grew up reading Crack Hour. Uh, and what's funny is the ones that I remember from him wasn't into thin air. It was like some of his own adventures where he often like would fail and talk about in the 10 and get scared and you know, just that reality of like being out in the mountains and and your kind of soul being lain bare versus just the romanticization of getting to the top, you know. So I appreciate you sharing it all, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:12

Yeah, I and absolutely, Josh. I don't think that that's I didn't get that vibe. Um, and I do think it's worth mentioning, like, everyone who takes risk in climbing kind of says it, but like risk is subjective. And like I I push back on like I think there's a difference between taking objectively unnecessary risk and taking risk that's very well calculated and thought out. And like, for example, like in the past I've had some people say, like, oh, you shouldn't go solo that like it's chossy and like it may be 5'9, but like it's not doesn't seem that worth it. And I would be like, Well, it like I'm not gonna fall. It's like it is worth it. I want to do it. Like, I would push back on it. Now that I'm a little older, I think that they were right, and like that is unnecessary risk. Or, you know, I'll I'll be in the valley and see people like walking around on a it may be a big ledge that you can walk around on, but they'll be doing it unroped. And it's like that's not really risky to them because like they're not gonna fall off the ledge, but that's just such an easy risk to alleviate in my mind that it's like, why would you take that risk? Like, there's no reason for you to do that. Like, save that bank account for when you're like on the sharp end, you know, 30 feet above your gear, you know. Like, and I don't know, it doesn't work that way, it's completely by chance. But my point is like if someone is telling me uh about the risk that I'm taking, and like telling me like what you're doing is is dumb and dangerous, I push back on it a little bit because it's very, very thought out. Now, if someone's telling me like I don't think you're thinking enough about this risk, it's dumb and dangerous, then I'm like, okay, that's fair. It's just all very subjective. It it is literally less risky for me being the climber I am to free solo a 5'8 than it would be for a 5'8 climber to free solo 5'8. It's just as simple as that. And like it's less risky to take less stuff into the mountains and climb the mountain faster than slow yourself down and tire yourself out by taking more things that would theoretically make you safer, like two sleeping bags or or anything like that, when you can just move faster and be off the mountain quicker, you know, less time in danger is less risk, and that's kind of the mentality these days with like big alpine, like a sense that everybody who's pushing the limits does. But you can apply that to even like smaller things. And then, I mean, yeah, at the same time, like I think if someone tells you like be careful what the risk you're taking, you should think about it, depending on who it's coming from and like in what in what sense it's worth thinking about. But then again, like I push back on people just saying, like, oh, you're done because you're taking this risk. Like, that seems unnecessary. But it is a very I mean, we could do a whole podcast about risk. That's the problem.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:52

We got we kind of did on accident. Um, I mean, I d like I said, I find it interesting. It seemed like one of the reasons why you were attracted to the southeast ridge uh Sarotore was that it had more hard climbing. Like it was like less of the mountaineering, ice climbing, and more like actual physical high-end rock climbing. You know, I'm I'm curious if you think that guys like you and other people of your generation are going to be seeking out more of these missions that are, you know, kind of more focused on like, dude, 513 is hard. Like and and also as you explained, like not only is 513 hard, but doing it where you did it and then the style that you have to do it is really hard. Like do you think that in in general the skill level of technical rock climbing has really increased over the past, you know, I mean every year it increases quite a bit. But you know not everyone chases these big objectives. But do you think that you and your generation is going to seek out different lines in the mountains because of that ability. You know you you are a high level rock climber, you know, even on boulders.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:05

I hope so. I think so. I mean there's always going to be a cohort that does the like snow and ice hay. You know like when you read about the ascent in the Himalayas and stuff like what they're doing is technically pretty easy. It's just super super committing and risky. And like I do want to go to the bigger ranges like the Caracorm and the Himalayas and like look at the mountains that that kind of stuff takes place on to know for myself if that's like a an element of climbing I'm interested in. But I just like think that no matter if I find myself on the biggest mountains in the world like I'll always be drawn to the more technical physically difficult things because they actually tend to be safer. They're steeper, you know, and like more clean. And also just because uh when you look at a place like Patagonia, the obvious blank sections of you know like what's there to be done the the next generation, you know, the future is the big walls. Like they haven't been free climbed. Some of them haven't even been climbed. Like they're objectively pretty safe. I mean rock quality may be one thing but like it's just that is the future is like climbing 514 in a place like Patagonia on a big wall like because because yeah all of the like ice lines that are elegant and extremely scary and committing have been done and like are honestly changing and becoming more and more dangerous. But the big walls are becoming like in you know it's like it is kind of our time by our I mean my generation's time to like go and like establish the hard free climbing in those places because that's where the level's at these days you know is like there for the first time in climbing history is the gear and the skill and the vision to be able to go ground up on a 514 minus and like have it get done. You know like if you take Connor Hearst into the mountains of Patagonia he can do that. And that's it. That's the hardest thing that's ever been done in Patagonia is you know even if there's one pitch of 514 it may be like a V9 boulder problem off the ballet. But that's it, you know like no like Alpinists like in the past like max it like usually 511 or 512. It's really cool. And like the in a day paradigm shift isn't our generations but taking it to bigger bigger levels is kind of like happening right now. Like Tommy and CBA doing the South African route in uh Chilean Patagonia in a day which is like the equivalent of climbing a hard free route like on Sarator or something in a day is like that is sick because that shows that like people are taking what once was like a 40 day big wall epic to establish and doing I mean it's this climbing all cap in a day but in the mountains and like that is how stuff in the biggest ranges on earth are going to get done is by that type of mentality.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:46

Yeah I asked this because I just like seeing people rethink things and make their mark in a different way with their new skills and and Connor is a good example where you know he just did the first single pitch trad 515 and I was doing the uh the mellow tour for it and one of the things that came out like on stage as I was you know talking to him about it was just this idea that like the move, the way he unlocked the crux move was definitely like unique and not how trad climbing would have been done you know 40 years ago. Like he was like foot jammed minpin pogo. You know it's just like what are you talking like that didn't even like cross anyone's mind like until you know Connor is young and you know kind of made his mark there and then you can just kind of like bouldering looks a certain way now than it used to sport climbing looks a certain way trad climbing you know is having these new techniques and just like on and on and on and I just find that fascinating that you know that is like we were talking about one of one of the threads that does connect all of it too is like new techniques can be exhibited in different disciplines or on a different stage to beautiful effect. And so yeah here in here in how you see that was cool man. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:04

Absolutely and I mean I agree too like there's even like in the brief bits of hard hard free climbing I've done in Patagonia like I can feel my body like doing modern style movement you know or like in the walls in Yosemite like I'm like hell yeah I'll take a big dyno sideways to a jug over like a stupid V10 traverse or whatever. You know it's just like like we just think about movement that way. And like I think that's the key. And and then when you have someone like Connor who's bid of their time on all the other types of old school movement like heinous stemming or laybacking or whatever then then you really have like a machine. But yeah it's

The Mellow Magazine and Chris’s Climbing Journalism

SPEAKER_00 1:33:43

pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:44

Well uh I mentioned the Mellow tour it reminded me that Chris you also are a writer uh and you write for the or are you the are you the editor for the Mellow magazine?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:55

Yeah I'm one of two senior editors for Mellow the other one being Delaney Miller.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:59

How'd you get into writing?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:01

It's funny because I I think I've always been like good at writing or maybe not good at it but like understood it. My brain is kind of like that that logic works like in school, you know like I was just reading like harder books as a kid and like when I would have to write based on comprehension I could do it well and like had like a story oriented mind. And then yeah around like as I graduated high school or maybe my last year in high school I started like I kind of realized that I wanted to write more professionally and through the help of some writing mentors which say what I say about climbing mentors there are certainly still writing mentors and my writing mentor was Matt Samet. He got my dad into climbing and he was at the time still uh a climbing magazine editor and you know as a 17 or 18 year old I hit him up and was like hey man you know can you give me any like random assignments and he'd give me these little teeny news assignments you know just interview some random person about a V15 they climbed or whatever and then like help me edit it. And that's how I got in with the climbing industry and writing and now I've I have some publications and most climbing media outlets and more consistently yeah I'm the senior editor for Mello and I got that gig through like just knowing Finn and Sean and Boulder and stuff and he knew I was a writer and he just asked me to help on first mag and that's been really cool. It's really really special and I really like writing I think writing's in an interesting spot in our time. Certainly more difficult to make a career out of writing now than it ever has been but I kind of see writing like climbing. It's uh it's like an artistic pursuit and one that I can pursue without worrying about making money off of it because it's not really why I do it at the end of the day. And like I mean it's it's nice when I make money off of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:48

But I like how Mello just scooped you up or just the focus on the next generation and giving you a chance to help you know shape the the voice and the voices of our current day crop of new and up and coming climbers. And it's just just shout uh to them for you know hiring you instead of don't get me wrong I love Matt I love Matt Sam. I did a podcast so he's great he is iconic and yeah but he is you know the the old guard um and there's nothing wrong with that and it's cool to see him pass the torch as well as people giving you know guys like you a chance to make your own mark and it's hard as someone who's I guess I'm older but I don't think of myself as older just embracing the new always and it's just wild like climate continues to change whether it's in the mountains or you know just the articles we read about and just fun to see that you like you're doing it you're doing it all man.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:46

Yeah I appreciate it. And it is interesting like that relationship between the old guard and the new in writing because something that I've you know like struggled with in my professional writing and when I say professional I mean mostly climbing journalism because that has been most of my professional writing is like oftentimes I really am I have struggled to like put out really creative work and like not to point fingers or not that I don't understand it but like it's because a lot of old school climbing writing is very like trip reported. It's like very by the book like there's a a traditional style and Mellow among some other publications have given me an outlet to push back on that a little bit and say like no I I have a different idea for like how I want to write this or like I think it should be more creative and like maybe spiritual is a word for it. I don't know but I I think you get what I'm saying like just have a little bit more open-endedness in writing and like maybe as a young writer that can lead to some some writing that's not as quality but like that's the only way you can learn to have like a really unique style of writing and like tell stories about climbing specifically climbing in a different way than the past because if if you're always getting boxed in then it's really hard to like discover new ways to tell a story that everyone's heard a bunch of times. And I mean I I don't know I I think I push back on that that idea too because I I enjoy and hope to write like more fictional stories in my life. So I tend to take like a creative outlook to my climbing journalism.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:25

But well I think that it's part of the sign of just how media has shifted when I was younger and I would get like a climbing magazine. It was the news man like it wasn't exactly like you know like a trip report it was it was factual you know there is an element of just like someone did a 14 seat like it was just like that was the the you know on the front cover and that was like enough uh and now the world we're in has so many so many different ways that people consume media podcasts you know Instagram or even just like 8a dot new you like you just see Adam Andre like updates it and he onside like uh 14d and you're like okay like check it's just yeah I I mean just like climbing has changed like you know the scope of what's possible I I you know just think there's always room to play around in this new era where I don't know man things are different like the the climbing media landscape very different than you know when you were a kid.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:29

Absolutely yeah and that's the thing too is like I don't I don't say that the that old guard as it were is like doing things incorrectly they're just it's just different. I mean and it also varies publication to publication you know like I for Melo I think Mel is a great creative outlet because Mellow's new and it's like the people they're interviewing are generally pretty creative. And you know I I did a couple articles for the upcoming uh American climbing journal and Matt was my editor for that and like he took a really traditional editing style which is super fair. Like you have to recognize what you're what publication you're writing for because like the ACJ is you know archival and it's just like purely like this is what happened when this is a brief story about the trip. And then you know recently after I got back from Yosemite I did a an article with Climbing magazine for their website and like that was also a learning experience because I had never I had written some for like digital media but this particular article is a bit more challenging and so like there was like a bigger focus on like you're writing this for a digital media audience. What does that look like? And why why does it have to fit into these constraints and unfortunately I I don't like being fit into constraints with my writing but unfortunately I have to you know like that's the thing is like there you can't can't be writing poetry for like climbing magazine's digital media audience. That's not what they want they want like clickbait you know things that are going to get their attention and keep it and like while I I have qualms with that as a whole I don't fault like climbing magazine for for sticking to that that landscape you know and that's like that's just the thing. I I think the entire landscape should be maybe different with more emphasis on creativity and art. But I mean that's a bigger conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:12

Well I always think about that that uh quote uh Marshall McCluin or something that the medium is the message. And so you you know if you're on the digital if you're

How To Go From Good To Great

SPEAKER_01 1:41:26

you're writing an article for something that needs clickbait just like the podcast is different than the Instagram clips that happen right like they they serve a different purpose they're in a different medium like there's a little Instagram clip versus like a two hour podcast. And so you know the message that you try to get across in that is different. You know so the Mellow magazine is going to be a different message. And yeah I just I I like the room for the different creativity and I had told you that on a podcast we don't always like I don't encourage people to have some very specific thing that they want to get across because it's a conversation versus like if there's something very you know very distinct and specific you want to get across maybe write an article you know maybe you know uh do do something different but it's just a chat. And on that note Chris even though uh this is kind of like a uh almost like a prepared segment for the podcast uh but it's the only one I do so I'm okay with that. And that's uh Chris how do you go from good to great?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:30

Man, this is this is cool because like I have heard your podcast and you know like heard this question and kind of was like oh I wonder how I'm gonna answer that myself if I'm ever on the podcast. And I put some thought into it but also kind of figured I would just speak from the the soul as it were and like try to on-site it a little bit and to be honest in my climbing the thing that has like made me improve the most is um going and climbing the things that you're bad at and it's like cliche to say I don't mean like oh I have weak fingers like I'm gonna go hit the hangboard again. No I'm talking like if you climb on the boards all the time and you want to boulder harder go sport climb a granite slab and like be terrible at it. You know or go learn how to crack climb or go like if you're a sport climber and you're falling off your 13 plus project for years and years like don't just board climb as your training but like go take a season and like climb v10 you know like learn how to do that or go adventure in the mountains. Like do the things that most intimidate you in climbing. And people when I've answered that when people like ask me that in passing or whatever like I do understand that there are are plenty of people who climb as a hobby and they are not interested in climbing if it's not super fun and for them. But my argument to that is like you can still make it fun. I mean the common cliche is like boulders are scared to sport climb and scared to fall and like absolutely scared to try to climb and it's like if you're scared of it that's exactly why you should go do it. It's not risky it you're just uncomfortable. But if you can get over that discomfort through allowing yourself to be a beginner then you're gonna be a better boulder for it. You know and then if you can get over that that ego of like being bad like really bad at something even though you're good at another thing then it just it's like I don't know you learn faster. Like if you're plateauing on a boulder problem go switch it up and like learn how to sport climb and like you might be worse at it than you are at bouldering but once you like get over the ego hump not only are you going to learn faster but it's going to make your bouldering better and then you're gonna end up having fun doing both things. And like for me that's I mean that's what keeps me going in climbing. It's like I can't like I'll like sport climb for a season and then I get to the end of it and I'm like man I really need some like adventure in my life like I'm starting to get annoyed with this process and then I I go take risk and I'm like man it's so fun to like come back and just like boulder.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:00

So I love that vice I I have said something similar where I encourage people to try different disciplines. And I think the thing that people don't remember is that they used to be intimidated, scared, bad at whatever it is that they are currently you know really good at that they aren't going outside their comfort zone because I I I'm from a generation that bouldering didn't really exist and now I kind of consider myself more of a boulderer. And I try to tell my friends who have only bouldered that if they start sport climbing it's like they could find bouldering all over again. I'm like you could just like find climbing again. It's just a little bit different. And I do think it would make them better at their whatever their chosen discipline is because you know the kind of the theme of this whole podcast is that there is a thread that connects every bit of climbing that we talked about today, which is literally all over the world at all different heights with all different risk levels uh and technical difficulties and there there's a thread man I'm I mean you know there's a reason why you said you really liked bees even though you know you're uh uh doing things that I clearly not super experienced about and I'm grateful I got to you know ask you all the nitty-gritty about absolutely and I mean yeah that's the that's the cool thing is like even though the most proud so it were as of my like climbing achievements I spend most of my time like sport climbing and bouldering because it's just like when I'm thinking about like trying to do hard things in Yosemite or something it's like the thing that I'm lacking at is like fitness you know like like power like strength fit endurance fitness so like the summer I'm like all right like I'm gonna go sport climb like specifically strength endurance routes like I've I realized I'd never I've climbed plenty of 514s in my life and not one of them has been a pure endurance route which is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:53

Like I was looking at my list and I was like wow I gotta go do that and and like it sucks to be like putting in like days on a grade that I could do in like two days if it were a different style or whatever. Put in like 10 days on a prod that's the same grade as something I've done in the day. But I mean that's just that's fine. Like it's fine. It just doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:14

And just the other secret there is that when you do send whatever that lower grade might be, it's really fun. Like it feels really good. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:23

It's confidence boosting you're like okay like I've unlocked that a little bit like now let's take it back to like what the original goal was.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:32

All right Chris I got a couple of bonus questions for you to uh on site as well since I didn't prep you on any of them if you want to hear that QA and other extra behind the scenes content from this episode and others head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad-free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow, please share this episode with someone who would love it. Okay, see you next week