#191 Lincoln Knowles — Soloing Choss, What Happens When Your Bubble Bursts, and The Mentality Of A Free Soloist

SPEAKER_02 0:00

It's been fun to watch you, fun to talk to you. And now you are shotgunning a beer. Is this a sponsored bit? Who is that? What? Who Okay, that was incredible.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Um Yeah, I completely agree about like the roots of climbing and um just so people know it's about noon on Monday. Unemployed, baby!

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Welcome to the Test Piece Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Lincoln Knowles, welcome to the podcast, dude. How's it going?

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Good. Today is a rest day for me. So I was training and soloing for the past couple of days, and now I'm chilling and making some YouTube videos.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

And podcasting.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Podcasting. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Lincoln, you solo climbs, you're wild and crazy. You do drugs. I gotta tell you, you were one of the most responsive guests I've ever had. You filled out the pre-interview form quickly. You even did like the other form that no one ever fills out. You're on time. Uh just gotta tell you, you're a professional dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Thank you. Uh I'm used to the media stuff now. I feel like I've been having to do a lot of forms for a potential uh Netflix show I'm going on. So I've been having to do a lot of, I don't know if I can actually talk about it, but um I've been doing a lot of a lot of paperwork and like random forms and shit. So but this is also a lot more forms than I've had to do before. I mean, it's only two, and it I think it does help your whole setup. So I'm appreciative.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

People give me crap sometimes when they come on the podcast. Like I had uh Sam Pryor from Carolus Talk, and he was like, Josh, you're so professional. Like you have people like fill out a form and and you do like a pre-interview. But I was just uh say that if you were just randomly meet someone in a coffee shop, you might have a really good conversation. But what if you had met a little bit before? Like you would probably have more fun, and I'm all about having fun on these podcasts. So thank you for being such a pro. I think it's just funny to share with people the behind the scenes that they probably see your Instagram and they're like, well, this guy's just smoking weed in his van and then soloing, and like people are just like, Oh, he's so famous, he probably doesn't do any work or anything. But that other side of things is probably what sets you a little bit above uh the average climber who just smokes weed and lives in a van.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Yeah. Unfortunately, like if you just do sick shit and you post about it nonchalantly, it doesn't work as well as if you like take time to make videos that people are actually gonna watch. And that's a big part of it, is like to be entertaining, you have to know how to make the actual videos like quick and entertaining. And if you don't know how to do that, then people are just gonna be bored no matter how cool the shit that you're doing is.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

I didn't want to force you down this like social media thing because you're like, dude, everyone always just wants to talk about social media, but I do want to tell people that I'm the one who reached out to you. I wanted to talk to you. Uh, you weren't like out there just trying to clickbait farm all the podcasts and stuff. And the reason I wanted to talk to you, Lincoln, is because I think danger, drugs, and funny stuff is missing from climbing. I miss the fringe side of climbing. When I started climbing, climbing was very fringe, dude. It was it was being in the desert with your buddies doing things you weren't supposed to and getting scared. Uh and I love the athletic side of climbing. I mean, I I I came out of gymnastics. I love the the pursuit of human excellence. Uh, but I also just feel like one of the reasons you've had so much success too is because it's kind of a return to like, oh wait, climbing is fun. Like, there's an adventure element. There's kind of like a going out into the woods with your buddies and just, I don't know, being a little wild. Like, and so I I just I appreciated you putting that out there. And I actually wanted to bring you up on good temps, the the group podcast I do when you first hit the scene with your uh soloing a grade harder every day. And my buddies were like, no, dude, don't give this guy any time. Like, we don't want to publicize that. So uh just wanted you to know that I sought you out, and my other friends were like, no, that guy, don't give that guy air time.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Bro, Carlo really did me like that, bro. It was Carlo at that time. Uh it's okay. I'll win him over eventually, maybe. But yeah, I think that climbing has become low-key kind of corporate and kind of like tech broy, and like I liked the Stonemasters and seeing all the dumb shit that they did, where there's this story in this book I'm reading where this guy, uh Yabbo, they like force Yabo to solo the North Overhang naked or something. I don't know what he did to like deserve that, or maybe it was just like a dare or something. And everyone's like watching him like cruxing out on this 5'9, he's naked, and just stuff like that is is so unsterile and it's so crazy to think that that happened, and now we don't really get shit like that anymore as much. So I'm trying to bring it back.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Yabo is very famous. I feel like there's definitely some good stories from people listening that I don't know. I just know of Yabo more because in Yosemite there's a lot of boulders and areas like named after him. I think Yabo Roof, which I want to say is shut down now, uh, one of the best 12s in the park, too. I think it was where he like had like his bar. Like they would like go drink there. Like it's like this big boulder. I I could be wrong on this, but I'll just spread that misinformation anyways. Uh, but yeah, uh climbing 5'9 naked doesn't sound very sterile. It's definitely the grungy old school. So, how did you even start getting into free solar? Like, what was the impetus? Like, what was that moment where you're like, oh maybe give this a shot?

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Um, so the first memory I have of actually free soloing is when I was in Horseshoe Canyon Ranch in Arkansas, which is like a big bouldering uh single pitch area. And I wandered off and I like soloed up this 5'6, probably like 40 feet, and then I came back down. My friends were like, bro, what do you what are you doing up there? Like, you're scaring us. So I came down, I just was bored, and they were probably trying boulders that I couldn't do. So I was I wandered off, and then the second time I ever free soloed was on my high school, it was like this brick ladder, probably V0, above like a little storm drain. So if you fell, you would like go into the metal storm drain, and it was only probably like 25 feet, and then eventually I leveled up to like this other side of the school, which is like 60 feet. And basically, I started through buildering, I would say, like doing actual solos, and then when I turned 18, I moved to Utah and started doing like some of the easier solos, like 5'5s, 5'6s, and then eventually progressed. You're soloing your school, dude.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

That's like a really good way to get kicked out of school, I feel like, is just soloing your school. That is, yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Well, it was like the only building I was like psyched on because I had always dreamed about it when I would come out of school, and then I was just driving around, probably with like some girl I liked, and then I was like, what can I do to impress this girl? And climb the climb the school. And I think it I think it works, bro. Like if you if you learn how to free solo and you just bust it out, like I think it works. Wait, you mean it helps you get chicks, is what you're saying? I mean it depends. It definitely depends, but yeah, I would say yeah, it helps you get chicks.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Damn it, dude. That was actually the Patreon question that I had uh set aside. Does free solo help you get chicks? Okay, I think it's interesting to think about like buildering being one of the intros to soloing because when I think about being a little kid, we climbed crazy high trees. Not just like little trees, but crazy high trees. And actually, remember I went to college in Santa Cruz, I went to UC Santa Cruz, and we had this uh tree that was up in the woods called, I want to say it was called Tree Nine. And I went out there, I had been a climber before then, you know, before college. I remember like climbing up with like friends and being like, dude, this shit's fucking dangerous. Like we we must have been up like a hundred feet. And I was like, this felt like real climbing in the sense that it wasn't just a ladder, like you kind of had to like wrap things, kind of mantle, and there's just all these people doing it, but no one would have thought that that was that crazy. You know, no one would have been like, oh, you're like free-souling 5-7. It's like, I'm not, dude, I'm climbing a tree. Like, I feel like it's somehow deep inside of all of us that you look at something, you want to climb it, that'd be dope. Like whether it's a building, a tree, or whatever. And so I don't know. I I feel like that's like a natural way to start doing it on rock, and it's probably not as big a leap as people think.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah. And a lot of the buildings, like if you just go around a city, most of them, like parking garages, most of it is just jugs the whole way, like not really harder than like five, nine, but still exposed, it's vertical, so it feels like you're soloing. But it's like honestly a good intro. You know, things are probably not gonna break, usually. Sometimes they do, but yeah, pretty chill.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

So what is fun about this stuff for you? Why, why is free soloing, whether it's buildings, trees, or you know, now like pretty damn hard rock climbs, why is it fun for you?

SPEAKER_00 10:30

I mean, I think that, yeah, like you just said, it's kind of innate to want to climb things, and it's kind of cool to see someone climb things that look hard and be able to suppress your fear and be able to suppress the emotions that you feel when you should be scared and your brain is telling you to be scared. It's nice to be able to be in those positions and feel calm. And even though your cortisol is through the roof, like if you're able to not feel stress like emotionally, and you're able to feel happy and like chill and content and like not rush, take your time. It's like you're kind of living in this precarious state. Yeah, you're kind of like unlocking the ability to control your mind and control your fear in a way that is hard to do in other places. Like I've been watching a lot of base jumping stuff, and I just went skydiving for the first time actually yesterday or two days ago. And I I was so much more scared in the plane and like jumping out of the plane than I am soloing, because I haven't unlocked the ability to control my fear in that situation because it's so new to me and it's so like alien, basically. But like I'm sure skydivers experience this, like you eventually get to a point where you just don't feel the fear at all, and you're very focused and content, and even though your brain is telling you that you should be scared, like you just don't feel the fear anymore. And that's a good feeling to have control, I feel like.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Yeah, but little dangerous stuff I've done, especially in climbing, like I've free souled a little bit, but it's like a joke, and then high ball bouldering and maybe consequential situations, but not death, is I like that feeling of being in control and knowing that what I'm doing is super dangerous, but I just feel like I'm a champ, like I'm just solid. But then you do stuff like you are literally on the side of a cliff and you will like take a video and do like a boba commercial, which was hilarious, by the way. Loved it, or like smoke a fat joint, just something like right in the middle of it. Connect that to like these focused, like flow states where you're mastering, and then like you're making like social media, like I don't know, like I feel like that's where I could give you shit where I'm like, oh, really? You like like the purity, but then you're like doing an ad on the side of a cliff.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yeah, it's more about like can you be comfortable on the side of a cliff on jugs? Like, if I teleported you to the side of El Cap, but you're on jugs, like, are you able to chill? Are you able to smoke a joint? Are you able to like be calm, sit down, like take off your shoes, and not feel fear and not feel stress? And that comes with a lot of time in those places being exposed. So it's like if you saw the Magnus Honald video, Magnus is like stressed, he's on a ledge, he's like holding on to the ledge basically behind him. And Honnold's like, we're sitting down, like you don't need to be holding this, but like you can just tell it's because he's stressed, because he's not used to those situations. It's like my ability to film a boba commercial while hanging on jugs is kind of a testament to how relaxed I am. And in the beginning, when I was filming, like on the day, whatever of free soloing, that action of me pulling out my phone actually helps me calm down and helped me like kind of de-stress, be like, you're on jugs, like you're never gonna fall. Like everything is super chill, like you can basically stand wherever you want. And that's honestly the hardest part of soloing is like realizing, like, oh, I'm on five seven. Like when you're on no hands friction slab, five seven, you're like leaning into the wall, you're like, oh shit, I don't know how much margin I have. And then when you have a rope or when you are able to calm yourself down, you realize like, oh, I can just literally stand on this no hands.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

You climb a lot harder than five seven uh free soloing. Um what's like your prep or training for when things are 5'11 or have you done 512? Have you soloed 512 yet?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Yeah, I've done I've done the only one 512. I've done like four or five laps on it now, solo laps on it. And then I've done I flash soloed 11C. I did a 11B, 11B big wall, and then I've done 11D and a couple 11 C more 11Cs.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Flash so I always do you remember that free soloist Michael Reardon? Do you remember that guy?

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Um, who it sounds like I think he passed away from like a rogue wave in Ireland, which was awful because uh I he was one of my favorite guys to follow. I thought that that gosh, I'm blanking on the name. He soloed something, I want to say in like the needles or the pinnacles, that was like an 11D, and there's this picture of him, and it's just an amazing picture. But the on-site or even flash free soloing to me, I have like a hard time. I mean, I I should say I did that on like 5'5. That's 5'5. And I think that one I was talking about, he was in a it was in 11D, but Flash soloing 11C. Tell me more about what that mental state is like doing it on your first try.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Yeah, I would say it sounds worse than it is because it's more like uh maybe like a V4 with uh with like a 5'9 top out. And actually, I'm about to post another reel where me and Zach Gala also flash over the same route. It's kind of low ball, but if you blow the crux, the crux is around 20 feet, but it's like kind of on a staircase. So you could definitely break your ankle or get hurt if you fell from the crux, uh, for sure. And if you fall from the top, you're definitely gonna die. But the mental state is trying to find the beta, be able to downclimb anything that you can climb up. It's like 15 feet of hard ish moves into one move crux and then five nine. So it's like if you don't commit to the crux and you can downclimb the V4, then you're chilling. But it is scary to go into those situations not knowing what the holds are gonna feel like, and you kind of just have to trust that you are gonna make those smart choices when you're under that pressure, and that your ability to figure out the best beta from the ground is like actually good. But there's been plenty of times where I've tried to solo on-site solo 11A and ended up downclimbing, and times where I've had to downclimb in general, and it's definitely a skill that you have to build and be able to relax on the down climb is almost harder because you're getting more pumped than you would be if you had just completed the route. And but yeah, downclimbing is definitely a skill that's very valuable in sowing.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Downclimbing's hard. Um when you have backed off of these on-site free souls, or I guess any free solo, how do you know when you should just commit to the foot or that move? Because I'm sure, like, honestly, like we've all been situations whether they're I I've had some like trad climbing situations where I thought I was gonna die. I just when I trad climb, I just act like I'm soloing. I feel like I can't trust these little weird widgets that are like in a crack. Like, what are we what are we doing with these? I've never fallen on a piece of gear at woods. Um really, yeah, never, dude. No, that's bad call. Why would you fall on those little you can just take them right out, dude? Like, I wouldn't fall on that. Uh I know I just need more practice. Um, but like I often have these moments where I'm like, you are scared, and then I go, Yeah, but you can do this move, and you know, I know that foot looks small, but if you put your weight on it, like it will be fine. And how do you know, like I because I'm sure you've done this while souling where you're like, oof, this is a little sketchy, but I'm committing. How do you know like when committing is okay versus you should back off?

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah, maybe it's like how much mentally do you have left in the tank? Like, if not only this move is this hard, but the next 10 moves are also this hard, like, am I ready for that? Do I feel like I can do that? And it's like if you're not stressed and you have a lot left in the tank and the route is almost over and you know there's a rest, then it's like, yeah, you should probably do that one move. But a lot of the times things are deceiving and things are slippery and harder. And if you're already struggling and you're not close to the end, then it's a bad decision and you should just go down. But the goal is to never be pumped, you should never really be pumped as on a 5'11, um, unless you do something terribly wrong. So if you're like feeling the pump build on like an overhanging route, then it might just be better to go back down. But I would say I try to not just commit to moves that I don't know if they're gonna like I don't know if I've I would say the only time I've really felt like that is like that one move crux on the 11c where it's like, okay, I have to commit to this, but that's because I knew it was over from there. I knew that the the holder was a jug and I would be able to rest out and it was a five nine after. So, but I try not to commit to moves that feel hard in the moment generally.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Yeah, it seems seems reasonable. Although I will say that I I this is on probably less consequential terrain, but to me, like those are some of the moments that I really like in climbing is where I'm scared, uh, I'm unsure about moving forward. And then when I make the decision, I move forward in the way that's like, you know, maybe I'm climbing a V3 move, but I'm climbing it as if it was a V100. Like literally, like I've had some of my best movement, like and strength and just best climbing when I tap into that. And you know, it's funny, like how danger can either completely paralyze you or bring out this moment that I think is is special. It's a moment that I always seek, and it's probably a bad thing to always seek, especially now that I'm old. But it's uh there's something really special about that flip and that switch and that feeling you get when you commit a real 100%.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Yeah, I feel like for me, soloing is more just like you're not really climbing your limit, you're not really climbing hard things, you're not really climbing moves that feel hard at all, generally. It's more about just being relaxed and doing easy moves and making everything feel as easy as possible.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

I don't know, man. Some of those clips, you look like you're like really climbing. Um you want it to feel easy. So it's it's easy to watch your clips and you know, you make these entertaining clips, which I actually do kind of want to ask you what makes things entertaining, but I I'm I'm in the business. I need to know how to make good media. Um but uh what is the actual prep that goes into these solos? Like I think that it's tongue in cheek a little bit when you're like, oh, I just smoked a fat bowl, I'm gonna like head up this thing, it's all good. I I have a hunch that there's a little bit more that goes into your prep and mental training than just rolling out of your sleeping bag and and onto the cliff.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yeah, uh, I mean, I'll talk about squash truck right now because it's like the most kind of weird and interesting preparation that I've gone through. Uh squash truck is a 22 pitch route in Provo Canyon, uh Rock Canyon. It's a 511. 11B, there's one crux pitch, or there's like three probably crux pitches that are like similar difficulty. One's 11B, one's 10D, and another one is like 10B, uh, but like pumpy and overhanging and a little slippery and superexposed. So for that process, I had climbed the route before with a rope, but it had been a long time. And then in February, I daisy chain soloed the route, which means that I climbed the route with the harness and two long slings. So it's a pretty long route. It's about 2,000 feet. And daisy chaining means that I can solo all the easy parts and be able to pull on draws through the hard parts, basically, which was like the 11B part. I pulled on draws and some of the in pitches when I was getting tired. I was pulling on draws. But mostly it's just having the ability to rest at any time, even if a pitch is sustained. So that's like the most important part. Is like you never want to feel pumped, you never want to feel tired. You want every move to feel like well within your ability. So that process of daisy chain soloing allowed me to do every move when I was fresh, which helped me figure out the best beta, helped me figure out good sequences, like route finding, helped me figure out like where are the good rests. And that was crucial for my eventual free solo of the route because I was able to try moves. I basically like pull-through move and then try to hang all the positions, like basically until the point where I felt comfortable on every move, even though I had a daisy chain on me. And so I came back a couple months later feeling really strong and feeling very confident, and then using the fact that I had already basically climbed all the hard moves, and a lot of the cruxes have like a one or two move hardest section, allowed me to like kind of remember those parts and be able to free sell it completely.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Do you like write down these sequences or like do a drawing or anything? Like, do you have any other prep in the sense of like rehearsals in your mind the night before? Like, I just imagine 22 pitches. I mean, that like even having like three crux pitches or a few boulder problems, like you ever just show up and be like, oh, how the fuck did this thing go again?

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Like, is that a side problem? I do I do show up like that a lot. And it it it it kind of does feel like on-siding with like a little bit of a cheat, but like the 11b, for example, it's like literally a two-move crux, and if you know where the hold is, it's like kind of like your overhang, and you like get like a weird finger lock pocket thing, and then you get your right foot high and you grab a jug. So it's like literally two two hard moves. But yeah, I mean I'm I'm still climbing 11B, like I should be able to on-site everything I'm climbing. Like, even if I completely forgot the beta, I would hope that I would be able to on-site. So um, I haven't really gone to the point where I need to memorize and like I don't have a boulder problem yet, you know. Like eventually I'm gonna have a route that is important to me, and it's like I need to know everything perfectly, and it's like a long sustained boulder problem sequence, but I don't really have that yet, or I haven't found one that I'm psyched on right now.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Only can you are an experienced and strong climber, but 511 is hard, dude. Like you say, like 11b, you know, it's just like whatever. But I I mean, I I've climbed a lot of five, I've climbed a lot of 513. I theoretically should just be all on-site 511B, but 511's no joke. I don't know. Like to me, 511 is a lot different than 510. It's a lot different in some ways. 5'10, you feel like maybe you can know hands rest almost anywhere. Like you're making it sound like it you could just approach it and you can stay calm and do whatever, but I think that shows a lot of just your mentality and that calmness because I take 5'11 seriously. Like, I can definitely I can definitely fall off a 5'11.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

No, you can, bro. I'm glad you wouldn't have you falling off 5'11.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

I don't really believe I'm just you know what's funny is like that's what's interesting is that in some ways, like I don't fall off of 5'11. Like I'll warm up and do 5'11. Uh, like 5'11 is usually a warm-up for me, and I don't fall, but it's like I don't feel like when I'm doing it, I have like tons of margin where I'm like, like if my foot were to blow on the crux or something, I might fall. You know, versus like on 5'10, I feel like I don't know, I should be able to like hang from one arm like anywhere. Like, so I I don't know, it just it just feels like a this is like where it is hard for me to fathom what you're doing because even though physically you say that, like you're right, I shouldn't fall off a 5'11. I guess I just try to imagine myself coming up on a mid-511 crux with nothing but air beneath me. And I think I would I would think twice. I'd probably think three times, I'd probably downclimb.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Yeah, I mean it's scary stuff. It's definitely scary. And it takes getting used to because soloing is so unnatural for humans, and yeah, but like when it comes down to it, like especially if you're soloing, you try harder, you make sure your foot doesn't slip, you focus all of your energy on making sure your foot doesn't slip, and maybe you just climb a little bit better sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean I think that is that is the draw in some ways, uh, is doing it. Uh, and and that if it wasn't scary, it wouldn't be it wouldn't be worth doing in some ways. Um you you may have referenced to a boulder problem, which I'm guessing is you referencing Honold doing free rider uh and free souling, LCAP. What lines are out there that you are interested in? Like what you know what attracts you and that you are training for?

SPEAKER_00 28:01

I hate to say like specific routes because then if I don't do them, then it's like I'm kind of just talking out of my ass. And then I hate to like overly hype something, especially if I haven't like tried it, because sometimes you think that something's gonna be easy and you get there and it feels hella insecure and not your style. And like maybe there's like a I'm a tall guy, so if there's like some really scrunchy positions and stuff, it's not really my my vibe. But there's a lot of big routes in Yosemite that I have goals to try to do, and big walls inspire me. I think that a lot of the stuff in uh EPC would be fun to do in Mexico. So I won't make you name anything, dude.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

I don't want you I don't want you to somehow like give you extra pressure um or have someone that like doesn't like what you're doing like go out there and give you crap. Like, so uh I don't want to say who this is, but there was a woman that I interviewed, she was adamant that we not talk about any of her projects or anything because she said that people like would go out there and like harass her or give her like chip holds like to not let her do it and stuff, which is really I don't know, people are wild, dude. And I'm sure you have some haters, dude. I'm sure people I mean Carlo.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

We got Carlo number one hater. Um that one dude from Climbing Magazine who wrote the article is number two, probably. Oh, there was wait, who yeah, someone wrote an article uh giving you crap. I mean, you can name names. Uh so no, he's actually a chill guy. He seems chill. He does like a lot of kind of like political articles, but the first ever piece of media that like kind of connected me and Honald was he interviewed Honnold about me and asked for his opinion. He interviewed a lot of people, actually. This dude named Alexis Landott, who's like an urban free soloist. And um, basically the article is like social media influencer is trying to get your attention by free soloing or something. And that was like the first article that connected me and Honold. And actually it helped me a lot because I got his number, and then we ended up selling, which was my biggest ever YouTube video. So honestly, I think I'm up. I think I'm up.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Um, I think it's hilarious because the reason why everyone likes watching is because danger is cool and easy to understand. And I think people all like somehow deeply grok that and like are inspired and think it's I mean, how can you not look at someone hanging off the side of a cliff? Like that that image of Michael Reardon on that, I think it's Romantic Warrior, I want to say 11D free solo, uh, is like burned into my head. He's got a red shirt, it just looks like the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. Uh, and so yeah, I I understand why you get hate, but maybe it's because you're good at social media, dude. What what was the catalyst for that series of I'm going to free solo something harder? Like that was brilliant, dude. That that did put you in that.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Yeah, so before that, I was an editor for this YouTube channel, and I was making YouTube shorts about hunting and about like like cabellas and like random shit about cooking, and I was learning how to make YouTube shorts out of basically anything. So then I was like, if I do cool stuff climbing, I'm gonna be able to make cool YouTube shorts, and I'm gonna eventually be able to drop out of college because I'll be making enough money off YouTube Shorts that I'll be able to live. So that's my goal in my head. So I'm doing all these hooks. I'm doing like day one of trying to free solo to El Capitan, like today I'm gonna risk my life on this rock wall, blah, blah, blah. And so I'm coming up with all these different hooks, and I'm about to go climb this 5-8 plus, which is actually a really cool route in Big Conwood Canyon in Salt Lake. It's called Sundial, and it's kind of chossy, but it's like alpine, it's kind of mega, and I was like, this is gonna be sick video, I gotta come up with a sick hook. So I did like day one of free soloing every day till I fall, made a really sick video, and then it did good. So I was like, okay, I gotta do day two now, and then I was like, okay, I gotta do day three. I just kept going, and I was like, I feel like I can solo, I didn't really know how hard I could solo at the time, honestly. I think the hardest I had soloed was like 5'10-ish. And by like day seven, I'm having to solo like the hardest thing I've ever soloed, and I'm like, I mean, I guess this is my path that I've chosen, kind of like not that I'm stuck with it, because I already knew I wanted to do hard solos, that's why I came up with the video in the first place. But I was like, I guess the time is now. Like sometimes if you have a goal and you just happen to be in the right place at the right time, it's like, well, I guess the time is now. Like people are going to do this hard boulder tomorrow, like there's gonna be pads, like everyone's gonna be psyched. Like, I guess this is my time to do my life goal. And so that's kind of the moment where everything was coming together. I was starting to make money, starting to live like on my own and getting more recognition. And I was like, I guess my time is now, like, I gotta lock in.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Don't you think like, okay, the the classic response against that is couldn't that have compelled you into a situation that you shouldn't be in, and then you lose your life from basically like social media pressure. Now you were the one who instigated it. Uh so like I feel like I don't know, but you you know what I mean? Like that whole thing where it's like, yeah, but dude, like uh now you're supposed to solo uh 12C and like you don't even have a 12 C nearby, and so you find one and it's sketchy, and then you know you get hurt or die doing it, and it versus like some kind of deep intrinsic, like I wanted to do this one my whole life. Like, yeah, how do you how do you square that?

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Yeah. So I I would say that before I started, I was like, this is this is my path already. Like, I'm going to start free-souling like hard things, and then the ability to hold myself accountable by having to do harder things is like, yeah, pressure I'm putting on myself. It doesn't really feel like external pressure, it more feels like internal pressure when you have like a training schedule that you made yourself. Like, even if someone else made the training plan for you, it's like you're the one who actuated it. You're the one who said, I want to get better at climbing, I'm gonna do a training plan. It's like I was like, I want to get better at soloing, I'm gonna do the soloing plan. And then I started publicly doing it, so I held myself accountable. Like if I was just said to myself, I'm gonna solo a harder route every day, I mean, it probably would have had the same effect, but maybe, maybe it wouldn't have as much of an effect.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

So what happened? Like, where are you? Are you on 517 now? Like it's that's been going for a while.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Yeah, well, the the recent videos are kind of confused because it's like my followers have followed me since then and they don't really know what's they don't know that it's like a daily series because it's not, like it's like once every two months now. Um but yeah, obviously once you get to 512, it's harder to solo a new 512 every day.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

By the way, this is how social media works, is like the cycle is very quick. Like people may have been following you, and yeah, you should be on 517, but you can just move on and do something else. You can just like it's just uh, you know, you can just make a video about other stuff. Okay, well, I'm glad you're not just continuing to solo harder and harder. And I hear you about getting that external pressure. I think it's interesting. People, there's different kinds of people in the world. There's ones that are just like everything has to be like deeply intrinsically motivated. There's people who can like go into their basement and just train really hard for some project, never see anyone, never have any buddies, and then go out and like crush their you know V15 project. I am not like that. I I uh need a crew, I need almost like to vocalize my goal so that in some ways, like once it's out there, like it's kind of in the world looking at me, like, are you actually going to do this? And my best example is all those like moon board benchmarks, and I like during COVID, like wanted to do all of them, and there was no one else to climb with. And so I started posting videos of every send I did. I just felt like because I had I was public with it, I would try harder to flash. Or you know, I try, I like it felt like everyone was watching and brought the best in me, not not the worst in me.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Yeah, I completely agree. And it's like if you have a schedule, it's much easier to stick to the schedule. And then it's kind of like turning in an assignment, even though like I hated school, like turning in an assignment like feels good because you're done. So it's like when I pose the real, it's like I'm turning in my assignment. Like I did the thing I said I was gonna do. It's like I'm turning it in, like, here it is. Like now I gotta go do the next one tomorrow or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

So did you successfully drop out of school? Is that what you're saying? Were you able to successfully drop out of school? Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Like uh you are just the best social media influence ever. This is what this is what the kids are are are.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Drop out of school, free solo, and do drugs, and post all your free solos on Instagram. Those are my four tenets.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

When I asked you about topics or you know, things you're excited to talk about, one of them was weed. I was like, okay, well, this will see if that comes up. Um so on that idea of kind of getting pulled into something maybe you're not ready for or maybe rising to the challenge, it made me think of the dark wizard and Dean Potter, which we talked about a little bit before. And specifically when you said that, just made me think of the end of episode three. Tons of spoilers. If you haven't seen it, what are you even doing? Uh tons of spoilers when he highlines in China. Did you remember that part? That was fucking heavy, dude. That one kind of got me. Um that little clip.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

So um, Mike Beck actually met him in Momento Bill Creek, and he was talking to me about China. He was Dean's lawyer for like basically the whole series, and he was with him in China when he pulls out like the huge duffel bags of cash and he holds it up. That part was gangster. That was uh but basically Dean has to walk this high line, they're trying to put up a net so that he can be safe, and he tells him not to put up the net, but obviously everything's dramatized, like, but they're trying to make it seem like the high line is really hard for Dean and that he can't do it with a leash, let alone without one, which I don't really know if that's true. What do you think? Do you think that he was actually just like breezing it or that it was actually hard for him?

SPEAKER_02 39:13

I think that it was probably a little bit of both, like I I've done a little bit of slack lying, just because something's easy, it's just like soloing or whatever, where like it may not have been totally at his limit, but that doesn't mean that's always casual, like every moment, and that's not kind of still pulling you into a like I have to perform right now. So like I don't think it was like the hardest one he'd ever done or something, but it didn't look fully casual, like for him either.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Yeah. So I would say that that's the difference between like slacklining and soloing, is like you're never going to fall on a 5'10, maybe, but like you will fall in a 5'10 slack line at some point. And I've been doing like some highlining over like little rivers and creeks and stuff, where if you fell you would break your ankle or like at least like twist your ankle, and it's a completely different mentality, like it's the same kind of focus and like trying to lock in and try to be calm, but it's like it's a lot less predictable than so link, which feels more like calmer. But I would say that Dean in general pushed himself too far and too close to his limit in almost everything that he did, and that if he was just a little bit more skilled at everything that he was trying, and he f instead focused on like the technical aspects. I mean, but slacklining is so different. I don't know if I can really even talk about it because it's so hard to be perfect slacklining. It's easy to be perfect souling, but it's very hard to be perfect slacklining.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who helped make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else, and those episodes are ad-free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay, back to the pod. Isn't that kind of what was interesting about Dean is that battling himself, like there was this uh thing I I made some comment to you. Like, I want, I'm gonna ask you this later, this idea of what happens when your bubbles burst. Like sometimes you'll be climbing and you'll be like, oh shit, I'm fucking scared. And like, what do you do then? And then you made a comment when we were talking before about how it was like Dean's bubble burst the moment he pulled on, and then he was just battling. And I found that kind of interesting, and that almost seemed like that was the part about it that he enjoyed was it wasn't necessarily just like this Zen flow, it was like this struggle that he didn't know if he would come out triumphant on. And that's wild, dude. He was fucking wild.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Yeah, I think the idea that I have kind of developed in my mind is that you're at a calm, happy, easy mental state when you start a solo. And the goal is to end the solo with that same mental state where you're still calm, you're still like easy, chill, like relax, your mind is clear, and for your bubble to never pop. And I feel like with a lot of the extreme sports, like like bass jumping, you're kind of just throwing yourself into the fire and hoping that you save yourself and get out of the fire. But with soloing, it's almost like you're slowly inching yourself. No, I mean, I guess the same thing could be said with like solos like the Phoenix, where it's like you're putting yourself in the fire and you just have to get through. But I think the goal is to always stay calm. But with when you're jumping off a cliff, like there's no way you're staying calm. I mean, maybe you are. I don't really have enough experience to talk about it. But um, yeah, I feel like when I watched Dean solo, especially the part that really like made me sick was when he was like on heaven, and after he comes down from heaven, he was like, Oh, I almost like fainted before I even pulled on. It's like you don't believe in yourself. Like if you're about to faint before you do a climb where you will die, it's like I don't know if you believe in your own abilities at that point. And if you're if you're already so stressed before you even do it, to me, that's a sign that you shouldn't do it. But it's impossible to get rid of all nerves. I mean, I'm sure even Honnold had nerves before he started Freerider, but um, that level of nerve. And that level of I don't even know if I can say, but I was gonna say, like, that will never make you better. But that's the thing about Dean is like that kind of sometimes I feel like made him better. So I don't know. It would never make me better. It would never make me try harder or feel better climbing when I'm stressed. I always climb worse.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

I just think of Dean on that top section of El Cap when he like traversed in and just watching how he's climbing and breathing. Like he's just he's like shaky, dude. Like he's not rock solid just doing the beta and just climbing and flowing. He's like shaking. Um something that I I wonder, like it was interesting watching Alex's parts on there where they kind of cast him as like he almost like got a villain vibe. Although he came out and said, like, dude, they they interviewed me for like 12 hours and they put this stuff. Of course, it's like, you know, for good media. But what I wanted to hear is I think it's easy to look at Alex Klein versus Dean, and we see these outward ways that they're behaving, but I don't know what's going on in Alex's mind. Like, I don't know what his self-talk, uh, like maybe he is freaking out, maybe he's having those same feelings, and you know, he's calming himself and he's executing in a certain way. Like, I don't really know. And so I'm always like careful to even look at Dean and like he was experienced. I mean, he did it, he got through it, he had his way. Uh, and you know, I I'm always like curious to hear other people's experience and struggles and how they deal with fear, because I don't know if I can always predict just by looking at them, you know, because Dean he did it, he still pulled through, man. Like, you know, he didn't faint. He he almost fainted, but then he that's fucking one of the best solos of all time, dude. Like, that's an incredible one.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Yeah. And and Dean is a like I said in an Instagram comment, someone was talking about like if it was cool to read his journals and release them to the public, and how like that's like an invasion of privacy. I was like, if we didn't read Dean's journals, that would be like if Jesus never like wrote the Bible. Like, it's such an important thing to understand, like, such an influential figure's thoughts and like to see into his mind. Because I mean, all the pro climbers I know, I encourage them to watch it, and a lot of them are like super psyched about it. And it's genuinely like affecting climbing, that documentary, because of all these people watching and realizing like this is how out there it used to be, and it used to climbing used to be so crazy. So I I don't want to like understate how good Dean was or like how important of a figure he was in the development of climbing, but I just think that like if you are actively like snapping at your cameraman, if you're if you're like fully tweaking, if you're having to get saved with a rope, this isn't good practice for a soloist. And I I really try to like strive to never have to put people in those situations. And I mean, especially the way he treated like people around him, like there's a lot of good lessons to learn, and there's a lot of bad things that he did to learn from. So all right, I'm gonna defend Dean.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

Not that you're no, I shouldn't say that. You're not attacking people. Uh, and check out this analogy. I'm gonna go like way off, uh, but try to stay with me. See what you think. I was watching this movie a while ago about racing, Formula One racing. I think it was Formula One, and I think it was called Rush, I want to say. It was it was a pretty popular video. This is maybe like 10 years ago, and there was a famous driver who was German and a famous driver who was English. I'm blanking on their names, and the English guy, I think, ends up dying in it. But they died on some, yeah, like the track was it rained and there was some big crash. But before that, there was this rivalry between the German guy and the English guy. And the German guy was giving the English guy crap because he would go out and party. Like he would drink, you know, and not take the driving seriously. And the German guy was all about this execution, like, you know, shaving off milliseconds, you know, how fast can you be? Right? Like, you know, it's racetrack driving. Like, of course, like let's do the fastest lap we can. And the English guy had some retort that always stuck with me that was basically like, it's not about making the fastest lap, it's about like how close can you go to the edge? And it just always stuck with me because it's like, you know, is racing always about going faster, or is it about like testing that limit? Because cars will always go faster, technology always goes faster. And it was about like riding that line of possibility. And so when I think about Dean, I think that Alex is a better climber than Dean. I think he's stronger, I think he has bare endurance, better, bare free soil, maybe even better uh, you know, handling those nerves. But there's something endearing about Dean's ability to push probably closer to his line than most people. Um, you know, again, I I don't know what goes on inside Alex's head or like John Packer or Pierre Croft and how close they pushed it. Maybe it's more visible with Dean, but there's something there about not just the sheer difficulty, but about like pushing yourself to your absolute limit. Maybe if Dean had backed off a full number grade, he would be common zen like you. But it seemed like he was seeking something that yeah, I mean, I'm just way off there, but that's my um that's my analogy.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Yeah, that's a good point. I wonder what Honnold would say about that. I mean, I've heard him say that like Dean had to go to dark places to do some of the solos, and what Alex did those same solos that he didn't feel as like he was going to his limit. But like I wonder what you would he would say. I mean, there are moments where Honald's bubble has burst, like on Half-Dome, if you've seen the clip where he's like freaking out on the thank God ledge. So I think that Honald has probably gone pretty close to his limits, but I wonder if he would agree that Honald could have climbed harder if he had gone as close to his limits as Dean went to Dean's limits.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

I don't know. Yeah, and I don't know if that should be the goal exactly. Like, yeah, like I'm just you know, I again I don't want to say I'm like arguing for Dean. I'm just like trying to steel man that side of like even though he looked shaky. And and then it's interesting, like seeing some of those defenses come out. Like, I want to say, like, is it sketchy Andy Lewis, sketchy Andy? Did he like write some Instagram comments for like you don't understand his art and like he's I don't know? That was kind of I don't know. Any any thoughts on that kind of pushback or people saying, like, you just don't understand Dean and what he was doing, and versus like he's just climbing and it's dope, or or bass jumping.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Yeah, I don't know. I just wish that it was slightly more objective and more just like about what he did. Like Dean did abuse some of his friends, Dean did do these awesome magical solos instead of like trying to spin it into a narrative. I mean, I feel like it's pretty easy to look past all like the narration that they do and just like kind of see Dean for who he was if you're really trying. And since I was looking to be inspired by a lot of the things he was doing, I was inspired. But also, like I'm looking to learn from like what to do as a like professional free soloist. Like, it's good to learn from, and I think that you get a really deep insight into his personality just because he's dead and he has like no control over it, versus like in free solo, you don't get as deep of a dive into Honnold's personality, maybe, or in like his inside thoughts and like all his angst and stuff that we don't see as much.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Well, maybe Dean was he was like really good at the media of his time. He was the Lincoln Knowles of uh of the 2000s.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

Okay, I wouldn't put it like that. Uh but yeah, he was definitely a genius and he knew how to entertain people and he knew what he wanted, and that's why he cared so much that he pushed it to his limit. Like he definitely could have free soloed heaven in an easier way if he had just trained endurance and like been a little bit better at climbing. But it's like the way he did it was so fucking sick that it's like it freaks me out, and I've I free solo, so it's like hard to understand.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

Do you have any of those memories where you look back and you're like, ooh, shouldn't have been there. Like, shouldn't have done that. Uh glad to have made it out the other side.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

That's a good question. There's this one route. This is kind of this is kind of unreleased lore, actually. So I was trying to be here first. Okay. Free solo this route and Little Conwood Canyon. It's at the very top, so it's like not the typical slabby granite. It's like, I don't actually know if it's a limestone or just a weird type of granite, but it's more overhanging and it's a roof and it's more like water polished. It's called Hellgate, and the route is called Medusa. It's 511C. And essentially, it's like an 11A or B to a ledge, complete jug ledge. You can lay down, and then it's like a roof for 20 feet, then some crit moves, and then you mantle, and then it's like a slabby chassis top out. So I was working it on top rope. I had done the roof section on on like a gri-gree with a huge loop of slack out. So I felt like I could do it up and down. Uh, I felt like I could do the bottom just fine, but I wasn't really rehearsing the bottom very much. So eventually I'm ready. And I've only spent a day, like two hours on this route. And no, maybe this was second session, actually. I've spent like two hours on this route. I'm back for my second session. I run the route. No, I think it was first session, actually. And I'm at the bottom of the route and a hornet stings me, like in my in the meat of my like hand jam muscle, like right here. A hornet stings me. Like I start swelling up, like it hurts, but I'm like already psyched. I already have like everything set up, like I've already pulled the rope. I'm like, all right, I'm still gonna go. So I climb the 11A part. Since I don't know the beta very well, it's kind of not as clean as I want it to be. And I get to the ledge, and I feel like more afraid than I've felt before. The thing about soloing is a lot of times when there's a big jug ledge, you have to like restart mentally. So it's like it's kind of like you're pulling on from the ground again, except now you're in like the hardest part of the climbing, which is like hand jams, it's like a roof crack, hand jams, and like some slopers, some weird underklings. Like, definitely not an easy sequence to memorize and just to do off-rip, especially when you I'm scared. So I was like, fuck, like this is not a good situation. I don't have my phone, so I can't call anyone. I try to like think about if I should go left. I'm like, probably the easiest way for me to do this is just to do the route and do my original plan. Like, that would be the easiest way to get off. Like, definitely easier than down climbing, definitely easier than trying to go off left on this like chassis, like terrible slab, and definitely easier than like waiting for someone to come find me. So I'm just chilling in this little cave and I'm like thinking about what to do. I'm like trying to rest fully, like if in case I want to still do it. But I've never had this much mental turmoil before on any route. And I'm like, this is not really like my vibe. I've kind of feel ashamed of myself. So then I was like, whatever, like even if I sinned, I'm gonna feel bad. So it's like I'm just gonna downclimb the 11A, which I barely even know the beta of on the upclimb. And so I downclimbed this 11a. It's not as bad as I was making it out to be. I ended up getting down like a little pumped, and then I never tried the route again, and I just wandered off in shame. So that's probably my most heinous sewing story. And I was actually so ashamed that I didn't even like tell my friends that I tried this route, and I just like did a different 11c like the next day.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

So why do you think you feel shame from backing off, or is it just shame about getting in a position that you realize you weren't prepared to be in or shouldn't be in?

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Yeah, it was like my overconfidence in myself to I mean, realistically, if I had been more calm and if I'd climbed the bottom better, I would have just sent the route and been more calm on the top. But it's like when you let a little bit of fear creep into your mind, and this was still pretty early, and this was by far the hardest thing I'd ever soloed at the time. So I didn't know if I was ready for it. I didn't have enough preparation probably for something that was like so much harder than the other things I had tried. But it's more just about like, yeah, I mean, everything worked out fine. You have to bail sometimes, but it's like putting yourself in a that uncomfortable of a scenario is something that I strive not to do.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

This is gonna be a hilarious segue. I always like think about my past. Like you just get into these scenarios and hopefully you get lucky. You come out the other side and you're smarter for it, because sometimes things have such high consequences that if they don't go right, you don't get a second chance. And sometimes you're literally just lucky. You're literally like I've had some moments where I'm like, wow, I'm glad like that rock that fell like didn't land on me. I'm fine, but like probably shouldn't have been in this choss, like right after a big freeze and thaw, like, and here I am. I don't know, that stuff. I got no lesson there other than like that's terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Sometimes you get lucky, yeah. So it's like when you're almost in a car accident and then you drive home with the music off the whole way and you're like, fuck, like I almost died. Sometimes you just get lucky and then you're like, oh, well, nothing I can do now, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

I either talked to Hunnell about this or I heard it on some other podcast or clip where he was like, you know, when you almost get into a car crash, you shouldn't be scared afterwards because it didn't happen. Like you're already past it. I was like, damn, dude, that is a good mentality because it that brings me up to kind of that question I I had for you a little bit early about when your bubble bursts and how you can recollect yourself and how you can get back in a flow state, or if you can't, and how you deal with that outcome, and just talk me through how you deal with or think of when we have this quote unquote bubble burst and you're still in a serious situation.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Yeah, I think that the hardest part about the 11C was that I didn't have enough time to like warm back up into the climbing. I didn't have enough like because one thing that really helps is like if there's an easier pitch in between two hard pitches, it really helps you get dialed and get back into the flow state of feeling comfortable and feeling chill. And I've noticed that like warming up on like easy solos or like some five-eight like slabs that are like still committing helps me a lot before I'm trying to do something actually hard, and then try to not be in the state where the bubble bursts, but yeah, sometimes it's gonna burst. And like Honnold finished half dome after his bubble burst, so he found a way to to get back into it and feel good again. But I really just think it's like sometimes you lose confidence in yourself, and that's the main thing that I mean when I say hit a bubble burst, is like you your belief in yourself fades temporarily, and you just need to get back that belief in yourself. Sometimes you can just be like, you can do this, and it works like somehow. Like if you're a little like scared, you can just be like, bro, this is chill. Like when I'm when I'm highlining and I'm like halfway and I start wobbling, I'm like, I literally just say out loud, like, calm down, you're chill, like this is this is chill, and then you just go. And I I've never done that something, but I have done a highlining and it helped me. So maybe I gotta try it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

When I asked this question to Dave McLeod, who's a bold climber, uh he basically was like, Josh, you're an idiot. If your bubble ever bursts, you just you you you fucked up. Like you it's not you didn't fuck up having your bubble burst, you fucked up being there because if your bubble burst, it means you didn't belong there in the first place. And so his answer was like, it's never happened to me. Uh and uh that means you you were wrong when you pulled off the ground, but I do like that concept of being a little more objective. Like it's like because hopefully you're not literally soloing at your limit, unless you're Dean Potter, I guess. Uh, and you're just like, what am I doing? Like, I can do this. Like, uh, I'm you know, I'm here. Although easier said than done, dude. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

Easier said than done. I think that's a good mindset. I think that the best days of souling is when you start on the ground in a calm, chill mindset. You maintain the calm, chill mindset throughout the entire climb, and you top out in a calm, chill mindset, and you never have emotional things going on. You just are focused on the climbing, it feels easy, and that's like the best day of souling, and like my hardest solos have all been like that experience. Like, every time I've soloed this 512, it's been like that, and I think that that's how soloing is supposed to be, but then you watch Dean Potter and you're like, that's kind of fucking rad though. But I don't know. I'm not I'm not at that level where I want to be pushing that close.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

How has free soloing changed your feelings about risk in normal day-to-day life? Like it could be in climbing and like being run out, highballing, it could be in making a sketchy pass in your car, uh, like uphill or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

I don't know. I'll say it applies to driving the most, and my friends, my friends are like, what the fuck are you doing, bro? And I'm just like, I used to, I always was like that, where I would just kind of be reckless driving. Maybe I shouldn't say that, but but I'm a pussy with a rope on, honestly. Like one of the reasons why I started soloing in little and like Big Conwood is because I felt like I was soloing anyway when I was climbing like 5'10 and 5'11 on a rope. I was like, I can literally just as easily, if not more easily, do these routes solo than I can with like this shitty gear. But it's kind of different now. I feel like I trust my gear more, but my mindset is always better when there's no rope than would there is a rope because I think so much about falling and I think about breaking my legs, and I think about like things that are probably not gonna happen when you're climbing with a rope. But I don't know, I just have a lot more fear in general when I climb with a rope, which is kind of silly, but that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:34

Yeah. One thing that I don't know if it's well known, but you are tall and I would say heavy. I walk up. You're like you're like just tall and muscular. You're you're you weigh a lot more than the average climber. Do you ever get stressed out about like rock quality? And so like you said that one five eight, you're like kind of chossing. I was like, dude, that's like the number one bad word to hear about route that you're going to solo, especially when you're 200 pounds, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

Yeah, I would say that I've soloed on CHOS like probably a much higher percentage than you would recommend any soloist to solo on, because Big Conwood Canyon has a lot of choss, uh, Squash Truck has a lot of choss, uh, Red Rocks isn't Choss, but there are definitely like fragile holds. And yeah, Honald said I was I was heavy and I was gonna break holds off. And I have been trying to cut, I'm down to like 215 now, but it's pretty still pretty heavy for a climber. But I would say just building, like I climb a cedar on choss, and he's so confident, and he's climbed a lot of choss in his life, and just building it's a skill. I would say it's a skill knowing what's gonna break and what's not gonna break, and you have to be a lot more careful and a lot slower when you climb on choss, I think. Pull down, not out.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:04

I love that when you bring up Cedar Wright, who is very famous, amazing climber, it's like, oh Cedar Wright, yeah, he's climbed on the lot of Chas. That's that's yeah, that's that's a good one. Um okay, something that I just we we've kind of touched on. I feel like this gets asked all the time to people who solo and then publicize it, whether it's uh you know, it's all the way back to like Dan Osmond and Dean Potter and Alex Hodwald and you. Like, do you think that by publicizing soloing, like is there is there something that you're going to cause that you are somehow responsible for? Like you feel like because you also you make it look very cool, man. Like you are you are making money, you are sponsored, you are smoking and drinking, having a good time, climbing with pros too. Like you collab with you just climb with Zach Collin. Please don't kill Zach, by the way. I already said that again.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:58

Um and you think about that video. Before what did you think about the way that he did that 10A? Because we're talking about yeah, how 10A is so easy, but that 10A has one move that is not easy. And it's also look not easy.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:15

I do think that for someone like Zach on 10A, like it does help that he's just so, so, so strong. And he can be freaked out, he can be stressing, he can do something weirdly, but he can literally like when push comes to shove and he goes into like death crimping mode, it's actually just chill. Um, and I remember Hunnold talking about like souling with Sean Rabatu, and he's you know he's like, I have an open policy, I will c I will solo it with anyone who's a V15 plus climber. Uh so there is an element of that where I was just like, yeah. Um, but I still want I want to hear your take on this because not only your your social media makes it look like you're just living a rock star life, and I do I say earlier, danger does look cool. Free soloing is attractive to people. Uh like do you have any fear or worries or thoughts on like your influence on people and whether or not you're gonna cause someone to do something that they shouldn't?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

I mean, I I have gone questions at the gym and I get DMs like, how do I start free soloing? Like, I just started climbing in the gym, I got my rentals on. How do I start free sowing? Like, what's the next step, Lincoln? Like, please teach me. Take me out under your wing. And I'm like, first of all, that's you never want to hear that. It makes me feel like really bad. But I mean, there like I was watching this base jumping documentary. There's people who just teach, like, you can just be like, hey, I want to go base jumping. Like, I will, I'm willing to do what it takes, I'm willing to do my 200 skydives, I'm willing to learn as much as it takes. Like, I just want to do this eventually. And it's like, if you are really that inspired by free soloing, you're gonna do it, whether you see the movie Free Solo, whether you see a clip of someone else free soloing, whether it's me. It's like if you want a free solo, you're gonna free solo eventually. And I don't know, that's just like a personal risk that you are taking. And whether it's inspired by me or whether it's inspired by another piece of media, it doesn't really matter. People are gonna do dangerous things. There's a lot of videos of people doing dangerous things on Instagram and every sport skiing, driving, whatever. People do dangerous things, bull riding. I was inspired to bull ride once, actually. Did you know the little lore drop? I have I have a poster on my wall about one time when I went bull riding and I almost died. That was actually really scary. You almost died? Are you just is that hyperbole or uh uh I was underneath the bull, so I like fell off immediately. I'm like, my hand is still on and I'm underneath. I'm getting like twirled around underneath, which is like the worst place to be. But yeah, people are gonna do dumb shit. Like, I did dumb shit. Like, okay, this guy came up to me. I'm I'm really exposing myself in this podcast, but this guy came up to me and he's like, Hey, like, I've always wanted to free solo. I saw the movie Free Solo, like I just think it's super sick. I do a lot of mountaineering. He was like, and I one day I just like bought some climbing shoes and I climbed this route on Mount Olympus. It's like a boulder, it's like 30 feet or something. And he was like, I just went up and I quested, and it was really scary. I got scared halfway, but I kept going. And I did it, and I just want to say, like, I think what you do is sick, like I really like for soloing. And I was like, you know, I'm not gonna say that what you did is like cool or like right, but like I mean, shit like that happens. Like, I don't know. People take risks, people do dumb shit, people get inspired, and I think it's just a part of life, honestly. I don't really know. What do you think? What would you say?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:03

I I think that what you said is true, where I think people who are psyched are going to do it anyways, and that especially with climbing, especially like if you're gonna first start free soloing, you haven't climbed much, like every single move you're like, uh, this is sketchy, like fuck. Uh you know, and I think the reason why what you're doing is popular is because it is dope and people think danger is cool, and people secretly are you know inspired to do it too, and you know, they dream of controlling their fear. And so I think you're right where I look on Instagram and like there's this guy I like, I like motorcycles. I used to ride dirt bikes when I was a kid. This guy Colby Raha. And dude, like the shit he's doing, like you can't crash. Like, it's not okay to crash on like a 250-foot jump. And like they just are all day just doing massive jumps and doing like ones where I'm like, dude, you're like on-siding this jump. Like, you know what I mean? They're just like, I'm just going off like this, like it's like urban, crazy stuff. And you know, I just I love it. I think it's amazing, and it would be different. Like, can you imagine if someone's just like, I just bought a motorcycle, I'm just gonna go full throttle and go off of this like 300-foot jump and like hope for the it's like, no, that's a ridiculous thing to say. Like, you build up to it and you can be inspired by it. Uh, but just because Colby Raja's doing it doesn't mean I'm gonna go buy like a big ass dirt bike and like huck myself off of a giant jump. Same thing if you watch Honnold free solo L Cap, like you're not like tomorrow gonna go buy climbing shoes and doing it. And if you do, it's kind of your fault. Like that's brutal to say, but I agree. But um that that's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:47

You can't just do that shit, bro. But if I had to like sell a course, you know, course coming soon, um, I will teach you how to freestyle a 512 guaranteed or your money back. Yeah, or your money back. That is so good.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:00

I get what you did there. Money back guaranteed. Uh yeah. Wow. Um, I mean, I would say just to to be more of a be more of a dick to you, I would say, yeah, but Lincoln, you make it look cool. You literally just came on this podcast and you said free soloing will help you get chicks. And so it's like one thing to like be like, here's the thing I'm doing, versus like, look at my lifestyle around it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:29

I didn't even start that. That's like the premise of every free sowing movie is like, look at this weird guy. He has this like cool girlfriend. Like, even though he lives in his cupboard, he's like still getting girls. Like, they they came up with the plot, you know. Um, I look I feel like half the reels make me look cool, and half the reels make me look like a dumbass. And that's why it's kind of funny because it's like poking fun at myself a little bit, but yeah. I don't know. I think that maybe it helps you get girls, but a lot of girls don't like it, actually. I would say that a good percentage would not like it.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:10

Well, those ones won't be listening to this podcast, so okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:13

I don't think any girls are listening to this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:16

No, no, I got bad news for you. This is not, yeah, you did not come on to test PC.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:20

What's your ratio? What's your what's your percentage?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:23

I think I'm like a 10% female audience. Okay. And I my hunch is that's mainly the moms of the climbers that I interview. Um shout out uh Vicky Wheeler.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:34

Um I asked Noah to free solo, and he seemed hesitant. I will say he seemed hesitant.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:41

Well, he he just goes, and it's the only reason he would be interested in free soloing is so he doesn't have to deal with dabbing on Burn the Dreams again, just those dabby boulders. What's the point? Not cool at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:53

You'd have to worry about dabbing on free soloing like nearly as much, I will say. That's not something I worry about too much.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:01

Yeah, yeah. Um okay, well, I will bring it full circle there and say that I think what you're doing on your Instagram, on social media, on your podcast is fun, is you know, poking fun at climbing, is poking fun at yourself. I think that's why it is attractive, man. Is like it's just fun. It's like the opposite of dealing with the ethics of dabbing on a V17. You know, it's like they're both climbing, and I do think that there's a thread that I can always take of climbing, like from board culture, bouldering to sport climbing to trad climbing, to mountaineering, to alpining to free soloing, like it's all still climbing. And I think it's all amazing. And I think it's fun though when you kind of have this different approach. Uh, maybe it's the old school approach, it's just fun, dude. It's been fun to watch you, fun to talk to you. And now you are shotgunning a beer. Is this a sponsored bit? Who is that? What? Who yeah, okay, that was incredible.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:07

Uh what'd you say?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:09

I was like, Yeah, I completely agree about like the roots of climbing and um yeah, all the stuff you're saying, I agree completely. Um by my course. Uh by my course, and the podcast is way better, honestly. That's getting cut.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:35

That's getting cut. We do not speak of other podcasts. Oh my god. Um I can't believe that you did fit a bit into the podcast without asking me. That was that was not a plan that was incredible. You definitely do live up to the hype, man. I'm done, I'm done, I'm done, I'm done. All right, no, you're not, dude. Uh, how do you go from good to great? Is it is it shotgun? That was a pretty quick shotgun of a beer. By the way, it's about noon. So just so people know it's about noon on Monday.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:05

Uh unemployed, man. I would say that you go from good to great by looking at the aspects of your climbing that need the most improvement. For me, it's my ability to stay calm. And I'm trying to figure out and experiment with ways that I can be more calm and more focused in these high pressure scenarios. So, like, when your focus is how can I generate the most power off of these small edges, how can I improve my body position to send this boulder that's at my limit? It's like, those aren't really things I need to worry about because I'm climbing below my physical limit, I'm climbing routes with jugs, I'm climbing things that you need to be efficient for, but not very efficient. The main thing that's gonna kill you is freaking out and not being calm. So the main thing I need to focus on is how can I be the most calm version of myself. So practicing something with a rope first makes you more calm. Practicing something at a similar grade that's like easier, lower to the ground, the crux is lower, knowing you can perform on that level without a rope, general time, volume, soloing in exposed places with a calm headspace, like repetition, these things all help you become more calm. But then you look at Dean Potter, he's like, he's not calm at all, so I must be doing something wrong. But for me personally, what helped me level up my soloing grade is just volume, time spent in exposed, scary places on scary routes, and really focusing on trying to be the most relaxed climber that I can be and not burst my bubble. That is good advice.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:01

I like this idea of figuring out what your actual goal is and then dealing with the whoever that I don't want to say low-hanging fruits, just acknowledging what it is that you need to perform your best for your specific goal. So, you know, if it's like some kind of crazy Everest thing, you probably don't need to hang board, right? Like I should acknowledge so does that mean that your long-term goals are in the big free solo sense?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:33

Yeah. I would like to free solo 13A. Oh damn, dude. In the next year.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:41

Alright. I'll I'll ask you later if you want me to take that out.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:49

No, I think that that's a very realistic goal. I think that I mean, there's morpho shit. Like there's morpho shit, there's low ball shit, like the actual number grade 13As not doesn't necessarily mean anything. Like there can be 13As that Honald would solo in his sleep, but like obviously Freerider is like one of the hardest 13As in the world for multiple reasons, and fear-wise, it's very hard, but I don't think the actual 13, like 14, hasn't like 14b been soloed or like 14c or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:24

I believe it's 14b is the hardest solo. It was uh was it Dave McLeod doing that thing in Margalef, which I think just got repeated.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:34

Yeah, by by Jorge.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:36

Yeah. I will say it's like I will say I've been there. Like he called it a high ball. It's like I don't know, it doesn't seem like a free solo to me. Like it's not that tall. Like I feel like yeah, I feel like Ambrosia is taller, you know, or like and also that kind of style, like of like pocket. I do, I f I don't want to be taking Dave McLeod down a notch because he's like one of my idols, but that style of like those kind of like buckety, like you know, drilled, probably drilled pockets, like you feel really solid. If you have the strength and the endurance, like like Jorge probably like it's like, dude, like this is my warm-up. You're like, I can't just this. You know, like he just done like 15 D like pockets down the road. Like, yeah, like so uh I believe that's the hardest free solo grade, but I don't know if there's there's probably been more more serious ones, maybe in like the 14A or 13D range. I don't know. I feel like what's it called? Uh Honald's Too Big to Flail is one of the more I mean he they call it like 13D, and I've dude. Have you ever been out there? Have you seen it? No. I climbed Luminance, which is like uh V9 on the same boulder, and I did that really early. I think me and my buddies got like the maybe like a third, fourth, and fifth or something, or you know, like we like were out there early days, and we thought we were wild. You were like, dude, this is extreme. This is like scared the crap out of me, that's for sure. Get to the top, and you can then look down too big to flail, and you're like, oh, this is not what we're doing. This is different. Like, I am this is a world that I don't understand. That thing is so at 13D or whatever, that still seems like one of the more serious climbs out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:23

Yeah. Um, I have a question about I don't know if you'll know what route I'm talking about, but it gets like a 512C grade, but it's just a boulder. It's a highball boulder, but like everyone posts it with a 512c grade. Do you know what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:39

I can I can name the route on Grandpa Peabody to the right of the process. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think my buddy FA'd that. This guy Elliot, I think he FA'd it. Um some kind of 12 C. Yeah, that thing looks tall and scary, dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:54

So that's bullshit, right? Like it should be a boulder grade if you're using pads. If you if you want the sport grade, you gotta take the pads off at least.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:01

I feel like yeah, I I think he I thought he climbed it as a boulder. I want to say, yeah, it will it the thing that's tricky is like if something goes up with a rope, then it's like you know, it gets a a rope grade. And then if someone solos it, if it's like a boulder, like do you take a boulder grade or uh a free solo? Because like, you know, should Honnold say that free rider was, you know, like V9 or something?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:26

Well if you pad if you pad a route, if you pad a route, does that make it a boulder now?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:31

The fly is the best example of this. I don't know if you remember, dude. I you you probably you probably weren't even alive when that happened, but when Jason Kell did the fly and called it V14 instead of 14D, uh, that was like a big deal. I mean, people probably don't remember how big a deal some of these things were because like pad technology was different and no one had done it before, and so it seemed more extreme than in today's world, but that was a yeah, so he called it V14. That's probably one of the best examples of a hard route then getting bouldered and being graded as a boulder.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:07

Yeah. So my question is how much harder does it make it to do too big to flail as a route with no pads? Do you think that that like that's just too far because the crux is really hard and low and the pads actually help? Or do you think that the pads don't really help because isn't one of the cruxes like halfway up or something?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:28

I don't know it super well, but I do know that people have fallen from there and broken ankles and stuff. So like you can definitely, you know, you can survive it. Uh and so pads definitely do make a big difference there. I mean, I would I would argue that probably the best example of this is that Honnold, I believe, gave it a V grade, and my buddy was there spotting him, and they had a grip of pads. So just I guess my my thinking is that he thought of it as a boulder, and I just don't feel like boulder grades translate to route climbing grades like we think they do. And you often think of the the experience as like either a boulder or a route, and that like it always seems a little whack to me when people talk about routes and they're like, that's like a V6 crux. And you're like, what do you mean? Like, is it actually V6? Like if we cut off right here and put on the ground, would we call it V6? Because I've often found that like route climbers will tell me a V grade on something and it like doesn't really translate. I'm more of a boulder, or I'm like, so where does this begin? Like, and where does it end? And so I just I don't know, I'm like hesitant to like really think about like trying to make that cross because that's like it's a 13D X, and you're like, okay, like what do you mean there? Yeah, I don't know. Okay, we'll be careful. Uh pushing the those grades. Uh I I'm gonna ask you my few bonus questions. If you want to hear that QA and other extra behind the scenes content from this episode and others, head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad-free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? Mm-hmm. There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow.