Board Talk #12 — The TB2 Expansion, The World’s Best Board Climber, and The Case For Full Crimping with Ben Burkhalter and Michael Rosato

Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I think that Brian is the best TB2 climber in the world. Like, I I cannot imagine anyone being better on that board specifically than Brian. And I've seen, I've seen all of the people in person.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Welcome to the Test Peace Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com slash test piece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Ben Burkhalter, you are back. You're on board talk. I gotta tell you, you are the first one to ever come back twice in a row. Like, I mean, that previous episode where we interviewed you, or I interviewed you, is a little different. We're now back for a board talk, but it's only been a week, dude. Although in in a podcast world, it's actually been like two weeks, so uh it's good.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Uh I've the only updates I really have since the last one is that uh I didn't mention I have this little finger injury uh that I re-aggravated uh a previous injury and it's finally coming along. So since the last podcast, I'd say my finger got from like 60% healthy to like 85% healthy. So I'm pulling hard a little and I'm finally able to start probably climbing on boards again soon. So how fitting.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Damn, dude. I forgot that yeah, Michael Rosado, who isn't here with us, uh, but he will have a segment later. He had told me that you had like kind of retweaked your like real finger injury before, which we kind of like touched on in the podcast in the sense of like I had an injury at some point and it was not good. Uh but it was bad, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, it was bad. I mean, I couldn't even play pickleball. It was so bad, bro. Like I'm not getting. Uh yeah. Well, don't hurt your finger anymore, dude. Just stop. I'm trying, I'm trying. Hopefully, I can get this thing healed up and not think about it ever again.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

I will say that something that does seem to separate some of the best in the sport is that either they don't get injured or when they do get injured, it somehow doesn't slow them down that much. Like when they come back, they're like mentally able to still pull hard. And I don't know, man. I've been injured a lot, so I probably already don't have like the genetics to be elite, but then I have like big mental battles with it, dude. Just like I like can't try hard. Like it takes me a long time to like try 110% again, you know?

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you have to build the trust that it's not gonna just like retweak and you're gonna backslide like two months. It's yeah, it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Okay, great way to start out the podcast. Um talk about injuries. I'm always you know my advice for injuries is don't get injured.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

That's my that's my doctor. I when I put on my doctor hat, don't get fucking injured.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

There, don't get injured, yeah. Just warm up slowly. Like it's it's always worth it. And get a get like a putty neato cube and just like squeeze it like all day. It's that's the way. Are you doing that under the chair? You're doing with your hands under the chair?

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Okay, all right. Uh well, Ben, you're you're in the goat house. Uh you mentioned the goat house, uh, which I'm not sure what stands for, uh, but seems like you guys have a lot of strong climbers there. Do you guys all climb on boards together? Is that what you do? Is that what training looks like at the goat house?

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Uh, pretty much, yeah. I mean, the house consists of uh like six people, including myself, where the average grade is V14 among everyone, uh, which is ridiculous. And I would say, yeah, usually when we're climbing together, we're just going to one of the front gyms here in Salt Lake, and we're either climbing sets if we're kind of in like outdoor mode and we're not like trying to train super hard, we're kind of already fit, just maintaining. But anytime like we're like on a training cycle, yeah, we're usually on the boards.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Oh, that's interesting that you said that if you're in outdoor mode that you don't climb on a board as much, I get that. Uh, but maybe expand on that a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Well, I just think that like, especially like in commercial gems, like boards can be like the um they're very varied. I think that some gems it could be better than others, but like, for example, like there's a TB2 at the original front location in downtown. And it is just like I think it's gotta be like the hardest TB2 in the world. I mean, it's first off, it's a spray layout, which most gyms have mirror, and for better or worse, the spray is is I think substantially harder in like the way that they grade some of the climbs at the upper end, like V12 and up specifically on the TB2 spray feels like a different world than V12 and up on the mirror.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Uh before you go further, I think I know why, or according to the tension boys, they said it's because Salt Lake had a spray first, and so all the first ascents and the setting was done by your crew, yeah. They set shit really hard.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Oh, yeah, it's all it's totally our own fault. It's all all my friends around here, like Zach, Brian Squire, like all the people that are setting like hard shit, uh, Kiernan also, Kiernan Tong, um, some really strong guys that are just climbing out of their minds on these boards, and everything at a at this hardest will get called A B. You know, that's like the top that top grade that anyone will call anything. It's like sacrilege to call something harder than A B on the board, um, for some reason. But either way, it's it's not just the climbs that are set, it's the actual board itself. The board like faces a big garage door and bakes in the sun. I mean, it sounds like I'm describing the grandpa peabody, it's hilarious. Um the the bull the board bakes in the sun for half of the day. It's also like weird because it is an adjustable board, but it's uh it's not like rigid at all. So when you have it like at a steeper angle, like 50 or 55 or even steeper, it like bounces a little. Like when you when the higher on the board you are, it has like a little bit of like give. So every time you go to a hold, like you don't just load that hold initially and take your swing, you like load it and it bounces up like with that elastic energy and then bounces down again. So it's really tricky and like shitty, honestly. And then as the final kicker, it's just like more polished than like any board I've climbed on. Like I've including like spray walls. Like spray walls have the appeal of like these old resin holds that have been polished for like you know half a century. Um, but then somehow these TB2 holds are just as polished, but it's not like in the way that you want them to be. They're polished in like uh holy fuck, like I'm having to grab like ten times harder than this person at another gym. So it's weird that like a standardized board can be so like unstandardized just based on the environment that you put it in and the amount of like wear and tear that it goes through.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

And that's the difference between a spray wall, like a normal spray wall that we all used to have, like non-standardized, is like it doesn't matter if it gets polished or or like typically you had the old holds that were polished, and it kind of made you have to like more aggressively grip things, more active gripping. But then like you knew what was what you knew that hold was polished, and everyone that climbed on it knew it was polished. That was part of the draw. Where now you see, I don't know, you see Adam Andra doing a ton of 8Bs on a new board. And he even commented, like, this is new board, it was tempts, like probably you know, easier. And so like it wouldn't matter if you didn't go online then see like, oh, well, how come you know this person who I know I'm stronger than like Flashbus, and it was like a two-day project for me?

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's definitely always like funny to see stuff like that because it's very like obvious. Like when you see like someone posting like a TB2 video, and like the holds are just like so black, like black is this night sky. And then you look at the TB2 holds of the gym you're climbing at, and like they're so polished you can walk up and see your reflection on them. You know, it's like we're not quite playing the same game. And it's like comparing yourself is like all you never want to go too far down that rabbit hole of like, oh, I should be doing this climb that someone else is doing. But it's a lot harder to avoid something like that when you literally are like forcing yourself into this environment where like you kind of have to compare yourself because like everyone is trying these climbs, uh, you're seeing everyone do them, you can literally see who's logged it, who's posting them on Instagram and stuff like that. So it's like you kind of always have in the back of your mind, you're like, okay, this person, this person, this person did it, and I think that like, you know, like I can do it too, maybe. Like, let me try. And then you like get on the the board here at the front, and it's just like, holy shit, like some of these grips are just unusable in the you know, given the current temperature or sun or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Yeah, I I know what you're saying where you have to be careful comparing yourself, but I also think that it can I guess it depends on who you are in your mindset because it can drive you to do things that you wouldn't have done before. And my example is when I first got into like the standardized board stuff. I had a 2019 moon board, and I was just like, I had no shit about this stuff. It was in the middle of COVID. I was just like on my own doing my thing, and I got obsessed with like doing them all. And then I remember like hearing or no, and then I went to my buddy's house who had a 2019 moon board. I was like, dude, your your holds are are fucking jugs, like this yellow hole's a fucking jug. And he was like, bullshit, no, and then the next time I came up, I brought my my my uh yellows and I was like jug, not jug, and it blew my mind, but because I had struggled on some climbs that people were like, oh, this is like the soft 10. I was like, it's fucking not soft 10. Yeah. Um and then you know, it turned out my holds were were uh different. But I still did that 10. Might not have felt soft, but uh, you know, so I don't know, it like it depends on how your mindset is. Like you can let it beat you down or you can just lift you up.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

No, I mean, yeah, absolutely. I mean, comparison is is always something that you gotta be able to figure out like how you use it. Because if you compare it negatively, then you're just you're never gonna be like the best, you know. I'm sure like even the best pro climbers like compare themselves to other pros in certain ways and like wish that they were better, but you wanna like compare yourself and get inspired, not like bring yourself down and say, like, oh, I suck, I'll never be this good, like that whole rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

All right, I don't want to go off too far in this rabbit hole. We're supposed to be doing board talk, but we can talk about where we want, then wherever we want. So when I have spent time around pro climbers, uh maybe it's different. Maybe the new generation is uh nicer than the one uh I was around, but I swear all pro climbers little little bit like frenemies, like when they talk about their friends behind their back, I'll say, like, oh, like did you see XYZ Pro Climber uh do that thing? It was pretty badass. And the other pro climber be like, Yeah, yeah, that one's not that hard though, right? Like, like you haven't done it, like you're they're always like uh and I think that's part of that, like hardcore competition is like you kind of have to believe that you're deeply the best, and and that like if they can do it, you can do it, you know, which is oh yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Yeah, yeah, that's the whole like, oh, this climb has to be soft. Like, you know, I haven't touched it, it's gotta be soft. Yeah, yeah. Like talking to I was talking to someone last night who recently did a 9A and you know, was seeing if you wanted to call a 9A or 8C plus, um, you know, I'll I'll I'll leave him unnamed. But he brought up a couple other 9As and he was like, oh, like I definitely think that like it seems harder than like this 9A and this 9A that are in like a similar style or whatever. And I was like, well, you just named two 9As that look like easy. Like it's so it's like the same thing that like you were just saying. It's like you just named the two 9As that like I was pretty certain like weren't hard for the grade at all, if even that grade. It was just funny, but yeah, like what you're saying is totally true. Just like everyone assumes that like they're a lot stronger than they are, and that the things are a little bit easier than they are. Like, even like the most simple thing, you know, something like Burden, for example. Like, I know that like um I saw a video recently of like Adam Sahar going to Burden, and he had like these strong expectations of just doing it, like just showing up and doing it. And I honestly can't blame him. I mean, if I was in his shoes, like I would have thought the exact same thing. Like my expectation would to just be to go to Finland and fucking send it because you know, I'm Adam Sahar and like I'm a beast on a fucking board. Why couldn't I send it? So I think that like that like mindset like can be like super valuable. But also in the video he said that like it kind of started to lead to some like mental problems where he just like was getting frustrated and stuff like that. So, you know, there's a balance.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

So interesting because I I often encourage people to literally be ridiculously optimistic and confident that they can be or are the best in the world. And I mean that even like in my shoes, like Burke, I'm 40. I climb like 8B if I'm really lucky. And somehow in my head, I'm like, watch out, Adam Shahar. I like I've been on the boards a lot. I'm getting strong, I'm coming for you. And that's just ridiculous. Like, but somehow I think it's good to like have some kind of deep fundamental belief in yourself and then temper it with reality. And when you go to a climb and it's hard, just because you're good or have confidence, it doesn't mean that you get to do everything easy, but you should still have some kind of like deep belief. And then, yeah, so temper it with like reality and be like, yeah, but I have to pull out all the stops, I have to train, I have to be my best self. So it's like this weird dose of like unreal optimism with like hardcore reality check and being able to reconcile that.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, I I just I've always said that like confidence is really good in climbing, but not arrogance.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

That's good. Damn. Okay, you just said what I said, but pithier.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

That's true though, yeah. Because I know a lot of like confident climbers, but I also know a lot of arrogant climbers. And error the arrogant ones are always the one throwing wobblers and the ones that like go on a trip and like get bummed out the second they don't send hard, you know, like and that's super shetty for the people around them and them. Uh whereas like the confident climbers, they just are just always having a good time. And when something doesn't go them their way, it you know, it doesn't throw them for this loop. They're just like, okay, I just gotta reevaluate.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

This is something we kind of talked about when we went deep on on grades and upper end grades, and my little anecdote, which I don't even know if I actually brought up on the podcast proper, is that I encourage people to be confident and to take every climb seriously. And so it's like you need to be careful when you climb on some V2 or V3 or V4 or whatever that easy grade is for you, but also that you should get on something that's two grades above you because you don't know. Like it just it might be your style or your stees, or you're having a low gravity day and just having the confidence to try anything but the humility or the what do you say, confidence, but not the arrogance that just because a grade is theoretically like below you, that you will do it. Because there's always one we'll find one. We know me and Ben know we can find your problem that will kick your butt. I don't care who you are.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Yeah, true. Yeah, it don't matter who you are. If it's if it's a V12 in the South, the right one, like these 9A climbers are not doing that shit in the session.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Uh, you said something about the the

Brian Squire's Generational Run On The TB2

SPEAKER_00 16:55

spray TB2 at the front, and you wanted to shout out that Brian Squire has been crushing the TB2. You said he's on a what'd you say, not a bend or like a lifetime.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

What was I said a he's on a generational run?

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Uh okay, before you talk about his generational run, you don't know this because you don't listen to the podcast, you just go on the podcast. But last time on Board Talk, I brought up Brian doing that V15, how soon is now that you and me saw the FA by Hamish, which was good times. Um, so uh I just wanted you to know that we shout Brian Squire often because he's on a generational run. But I also want to know like what makes you say that. And I want to hear is it on that TB2 that's so slick?

SPEAKER_02 17:43

Yes, that's like another that's just another one of the reasons why to me it's so fucked up is because like just for like brief context, like Brian basically quit climbing for like the better part of a year. Um, I know he got back from a Rocklands trip that he was not super psyched about and kind of just was a little bit bummed on climbing, and he just had other things going on. And so he just was full, you know, cold turkey. Just no didn't even go into the gym. He was still around hanging out, but you'd never see him climbing. And then he just randomly, uh, I want to say maybe in like January or February or something, like not that long ago, definitely like post-New Year's 2026, uh, just started to pick up climbing again. And just within like three weeks, it was like insane. Within three weeks, he was climbing like at a very high level on the TB2. And then within an after another three weeks, he was like the strongest he's ever been. And like this dude is fucking strong. So for him to like reach that level in that short amount of time, it doesn't even make sense to me. It almost was like I was like, did you like secretly hang board the whole time or something? Like, are you hiding something? Because this is like unbelievable how good he is. He has been just on an absolute tear on the TB2. He did like a couple board lords climbs, he made light work of them. He did this thing like nylon strung that is just not a boulder that is conducive to having shitty temps and a slick board. Uh, it's got a few end cuts, but like not really. It's at 50. Most of the holds are pretty flat, uh, and a lot of them are plastic for the hardest moves. Anyone listening out there knows that like the the wood is the great equalizer, but the plastic is so varied from board to board, gym to gym, um, you know, temperature varies it a lot. Like the plastic holds are really hard, especially the ones that aren't in cut. And so this thing is just all plastic holds for the hardest part, and he did it in like two tries. He basically flashed it, which is a climb that like Song Su, Zach, and Adam all had to like work to do, which is crazy because those aren't just like B tier strong guys, those are all like really fucking strong climbers, and Brian just makes quick work of it. Uh, also, he's just been setting some really hard, uh, really good too, very fun to climb on uh shit at like 55. Yeah, and then that all like seemingly culminated with him doing the House soon is now Hamishrig very quickly, and in like I remember I think it there was like a heat wave that weekend or something too. I remember like seeing him post it and I was like, damn, you did that like yesterday, dude. Like it was like hot yesterday, and the gym does not have very good AC. I don't even know if the gym has AC. You know what I mean? And it was like hot and salt like that day. He's just on one.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Interesting that he took a big break. I I didn't I didn't know that. I did notice that his Instagram was a little dormant, or like I hadn't seen anything from him because I he's it'sy bitsy crimpers or something like that. Uh and yeah, I I like watching his hard board sends and uh his climbs are really good. I often climb on his sets, not not the A B ones. Uh but I took a look at nylon, nylon strong, and that was in a board lords, and you just mentioned the people there, which by the way, not only are they A-tier climbers, they're fucking A-tier board climbers. Like they know how to climb on a board. And yeah, I then was looking at because I actually just stumbled on it, I thought like it looked, I don't know. Um I'm probably uh over my head thinking I uh I can project it, but at least it has a lot of moves, so I don't know. Maybe I can work on it. But then I looked at the comments and I was like, holy shit, Brian. Holy shit, dude. Second or basically flash it is insane. Uh the story I always like to tell about Brian is that when I met him in Bishop, I think I saw him do that lucid dreaming crux move, which I thought was cool. But then after meeting him in Being like, damn, this guy's strong. And he was a little more unknown then. I feel like he was with a crew that was, you know, all these A tier, and he was clearly strong, but people didn't really recognize him. Either he posted, or I heard that when he did direction, he kept his foot on for that crux move on Thunderbird. What the fuck? And not in like people who don't know this climb is just like kind of a classic jump off a razor to a little uh edge. And some people like walk their feet over and heel hook and like tech it out. Like I think Puccio may have uh been the one who pioneered that way, but it's normally like a jump. I I can't I don't know if I've ever heard of anyone keeping their foot on. I know if anyone had kept their phone for that move, it would have been Dan Bell, uh, but no, Brian, dude.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Yeah, Brian kept his foot on that movie. Yeah, exactly. It's funny. Yeah, Brian also essentially flashed that one too, I'm pretty sure. Like he I think he said he tried it maybe like once a few years ago when he was like younger, but and then just like pulled on and just did direct north, which it is insane. But the specifically the Thunderbird move, like him keeping his feet, like that is what Brian's like superpower is. Like I think that like every climber at or near like the highest level has like their own superpower. His is 100% body tension and keeping his feet on. But the thing about it is the way that most people keep tension, like me, like Daniel, uh, like Aiden Roberts or something, like, is usually very static. Like you're pulling in on a foothold, uh, maybe you're dropping your knee a little, or you're, you know, kind of squaring up or something, you're locking, locking, locking, and then you're able to reach, either fast or slow, but like a lot of it is like this very like controlled thing. Whereas what Brian does is he's able to use tension almost in like a coordinated way. So he's moving really quickly between holds, but then at the end of the move is when he starts engaging this crazy type of body tension where it's like he moves really quickly, it looks snappy, but his feet stay on. And it almost has the illusion of like I would say that like my style of body tension is like I'm very tight. He is very loose, but the outcome is the same. Both of us keep our feet on, but the amount of energy output is substantially different because he is essentially doing a move very efficiently because his feet stay on and he's just moving quickly, and he's mostly just using momentum to generate. Whereas like I'm using like my muscles and like my fingers, and I'm getting way more tired on a move, and then you know, I hit it, and so it's and not only is it slower, it's more fatiguing. So it's like his style of foot tension is like I've never seen anything like it in any other climber at any level. It's it's honestly when you see it in person, you're like, how the fuck are you climbing like that?

SPEAKER_00 25:08

That's interesting because when you think about the the different kinds of styles you see on the two ends of the spectrum might be like Daniel Woods, where he does all of the hard movement almost before moving his arms. It's like getting all locked up, getting way out in the foot, keeping that pressure intense. And we went into this robotic style last episode, uh, and then going versus like maybe Ham Shahar or Noah Wheeler, where it's like they pop and they can pop off. Maybe even Magos is kind of like this. They pop and then have the ability to latch and their feet often cut. And it's like if you can have that quickness, efficient pop and move through a hard position, but then also keep your foot on, that's like the holy grail, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Oh no, like seriously. I mean, honestly, if there's like any style that like I wish that I could replicate, like just for my own sake, just to be more efficient, it would be like Brian's ability to keep his feet on because it's genuinely like it's so impressive, and it also just seems so useful. I've never thought of tension in the way that he thinks of it. He basically, I think he told me I might like mess this up a little, but it was something along the lines of like think of like every move as like this dyno, essentially, or like a dead point, like something where you would be jumping and then just like uh like I can't exactly remember how he said it. Like he would just say it better, but like he essentially like views every move as like he looks at it as like a a math problem of like okay, like how can I do this move and keep my feet on, but also move quickly? So he thinks about like rotating his body in like a C shape instead of going in a straight line or something like that. It's like how can I like pull over the foot and then like get the distance to go to the hold, and then at the last second when I'm grabbing the hold, engage the tension to keep my feet on the wall. It's like a ballerina or something.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

So I I think of myself as being a really poppy climber who's able to keep their feet on, uh, but obviously at a much lower level. And I'll just tell you that my trick for that is I just like really think about pushing on it all the way through the movement. So like I feel like you can be dynamic and go big and still have foot tension that whole time. Like there's no reason that you can't like apply pressure. I mean, not if you have to like come off the foot or do something super dynamic, but uh, I don't like putt myself, compare myself to Brian. He would just uh I know his climbs and I can't keep my phone like he does, but I feel like there is an element of it's a technique, like you could develop it too, I'm sure. And for me, what has gotten me better at climbing often is I try to mimic Daniel's style. Like to me, I'm like, I want to be like Daniel, and then when I can combine those or pull out that thing from the toolbox where it's like, okay, no, now I am strong enough uh on these little holds and pulling up and locking off. Like it is interesting because you want to lean into your style, but you also need to make sure that you're not like three grades below on the other styles that you covet, because that toolbox, you like you want to have it all, you know.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

No, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that it's just always like a product of like your superpower is gonna be like a product of like what you grew up training on the most, usually. So like for me, like I would say that like my quote superpower, if you could call it that, is like tiny death cramps. Like I'm good at like in-cut cramps, usually when you're jumping between them um on like a steeper angle. So like board style, but like weirdly, like not the standardized board. Yeah, exactly. Like, yeah, like I I don't think that like I actually excel on the TV2 um because there aren't small enough holes, which is funny.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

I gotta ask you about uh okay.

Should You Crimp Or Pinch

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Long time ago, some of you might uh remember this, posted a quote unquote viral clip of Carlo Traversi saying something like he avoids uh full crimping like the plague or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Something to that is what that does ring a bell. Yeah, like the plague.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Carlo saying something very uh divisive, who would have thought? Uh and you commented, garbage take, and uh got a lot of likes too. And I don't want to defend Carlo. Uh I actually maybe I should put Carlo in the best light and then have you kind of you know tear that down how you see fit. Honestly, like I don't full crimp as much either. And I think part of it is like growing up in the gym, and I have like really strong thumbs and that ability for holds to like jut out in the gym and like you know, get that thumb in there. It gives you almost like more directional, like you can kind of like push your body around, it gives you like another angle of attack. Uh and so also I know Carlo and I've definitely seen him crip the shit out of stuff too. So uh you know, the little clickbait thing that we put out there may not accurately represent him. But what do you think? What why do you think that is a bad take?

SPEAKER_02 30:34

Yeah, so just uh I'll just say what I remember Carlo saying. So I remember if I remember correctly, the clip was something like I avoid the full crimp like a plague. When you're climbing indoors, since every hold protrudes from the wall, why would you not pinch it? Crimping is essentially useless, or something like that. Even that might not be exactly what he said, but that's like how to me at the time it came across was that like there's a couple things. It was that like he avoids crimping, he pinches every hold indoors because it protrudes out from the wall, and crimping indoors is pra is virtually useless. And so those are like the things that I got out of it. So, first off, avoiding the crimps, like avoiding crimping like the plague, you know, we'll just address that first off. Like, I don't think he meant it like this, but that how I took it is that I heard a lot of people growing up climbing, and I'm talking when I was like very first starting, you know. I'm like a young kid, I just started climbing in my early teenage years. And people are like constantly saying things along the lines of, oh, you shouldn't crimp unless you're outside. Like crimping is the most dangerous hand position, that's how you get injured. Don't crimp unless you're outside. I don't know if like you heard this, but I feel like this is a very common thing, maybe not now, but like a lot of older folks, like people that were in their 20s, 30s climbing, that were kind of mentoring me or that would see me in the gym. I you would hear them say, like, oh, you're not supposed to train crimps in the gym, you know. Like, you know, when you're hangboarding, you're only half crimping and open-handing. So like, why wouldn't you just do the same thing on the climbing wall? But I think that's just like really stupid logic because like anything is just exposure therapy. So it's like if you only crimp outside, you're A, going to be super weak at crimping, and B, you're gonna be super susceptible to injuring yourself. Like, in theory, yeah, you're lowering the amount of exposure to your pulleys in terms of like, okay, like if I if I load my pulleys crimping four days a week uh versus one day a week, and it's just that outside day, like technically the exposure is less, but like outside the grips are a little bit gnarlier, you're a little more likely to try hard, even when you shouldn't be, your sessions are longer, you're maybe a little dehydrated. Like, not everything is like controlled outside like it is in the gym. So it's like going outside and just a and only crimping there is just like that is just a terrible take. And like I never listened to them when they told me then, and I will never ever listen to, you know, like that that's just bad. That's not using good logic.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

I agree. And before we move on to the the next natural outcome out of that, uh I did grow up hearing that as well. People are like, crimping is dangerous, crimping is bad, uh, which uh yeah, I think is ridiculous. It's kind of like if your fingers can do it, it is a okay position. Like it may have a higher risk than other hold types, uh, but that doesn't mean that it's bad or wrong. It's just like, I don't know, doing a gastone is more risky for your shoulders. Does that mean gastones are like wrong? It's like no, it's just it's something, it's like a tool. And so, yeah, maybe even not exposing yourself makes it more risky. Uh, I think where it came from is that people climbed outdoors a ton. And honestly, if you look back in time, climbers mainly climbed outdoors, mainly climbed on vertical stuff, and mainly were skinny, dude. Like climbers were tiny. Uh, and so the gyms uh were this new way to be exposed to like bigger holds, thuggier movements, stronger, just like, and so I think that people, it wasn't bad advice because it was like, this is the stimulus you're missing, but it's not dangerous. In fact, when I start a season, I actually often spend a bunch of time on the hangboard, full crimping, like not like I'm training, just like I'm like, dude, I need to grease this groove again. Like, I haven't been doing it that much. And the last thing I'll say is because I was there for that podcast with Carlo, he was not saying it was to avoid injury. That was not the message to I I know for a fact he because I saw all these comments and I was like, about people, you know, people like, oh, like it's because you know, crimping's bad for your fingers. And I was like, yo, he yo, he didn't say that. Like, that is not what he said.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

So I figure that's why, yeah, that's why I started with that point because it's like, I'm sure Carlo wasn't making that because like he is way too good and way too strong to be making a such a brain dead take like that. Because yeah, the people that say, Oh, don't crimp because of injury in in the gym, it's like, uh, I I am so glad that we're like past that. Like, people have realized that, like, yeah, you should just be doing what you're doing inside, outside to best prepare yourself. That's just like how that works.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

But yeah, so I want to hear like my reasoning for not full crimping as much is twofold. I'm not as good at it as I am at kind of like half crimping, getting my thumb in, like, I'm just not as good at. So typically, if you see me trying my hardest, you know, you we all default to kind of what we're better at. But then uh what I find also is I feel like if I can get my thumb on, I feel like it gives me a little more maneuverability. But if it's a hold and I have to full crimp it, like I will uh if it's too small for me to like pinch or do a half crimp or get my thumb on. I just feel like it gives me a little more of a kind of monodirectional ability on it. But sometimes you need the hold to be as good as possible, right? Like, so if I can avoid full crimping because I can own it without full crimping anyways, I probably will. But if I need to own it, and the only way I can do that is full crimp, great. Like it is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Yeah, I think they have like totally different use cases. Um, and I could go down like a whole different rabbit hole about how like crimping, you know, like if you're really good at crimping but not half crimping, aka pinching, uh like because just very, very brief. Pinching and half crimping are the same thing. Like I'm sick of people saying that, like, oh, I'm not good at pinching, but they're good at half cramping. Like, what do you mean? Like it all that pinch all pinching is is half crimping with a thumb, right? Like how wide the pinch gets, you know, might make the half crimp maybe a little more crimpy. For example, like lucid dreaming pinch is a very crimpy pinch. You're hot you're knuckled up on it like that. Whereas, like, you know, a pinch on like hit the hypnotized minds pinch even is all is a half crimp pinch because it's just a little bit wider, so you're not your pinky isn't getting as bent up on it. But even that's still kind of a crimpy pinch. I just can't think of another pinch, but there's all kinds of pinches, wide pinches, you know, duckbill pinches is definitely like not half crimping, obviously. But most like outdoor pinches and indoor pinches for that matter are gonna involve like your fingers mostly at 90 degree angles with your thumb being actuated. So it's just like being good at pinching is being good at half crimping. The only different grip is like drag and crimp. And so, anyway, different use cases, hard boulders, like I could go on and on about like what grip is better to get you to this grade, but you know, this grip is better for these grades and stuff like that. But I do think that crimping is like the most mechanically advantageous hand position. Like, this is like just biomechanics, um, because you have the most leverage uh in the smallest amount of surface area. That's just like how pressure works and like force. And half crimping gives you more surface area with less leverage. Um, so it's like it it's a very different feeling because I think in a half crimp you do have more maneuverability, like you or or like a pinch you were saying with the thumb, um, you're able to like kind of move the hold in like different dimensions and stuff like that. Whereas a crimp is kind of you're just pulling down on it, but on the crimp, you're also able to pull out from the wall, which is why you can get like super close. That's why Aiden Roberts is so you know static, is because he's not just taking these crimps and pulling down, he's pulling in to the wall. But I do want to I do want to go back to Carlos thing. If we're because I had two other things, yeah. Go, go, go.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Yeah, that was a wonderful rabbit hole. I I yeah, I just agree and I pinch. I'm a pincher and I have crimp and I pinch, and I I just agree with all of that. Uh although the I will say that on some of the things, if you get uh your thumb on, you can pull in, but not as well, uh, especially not on like an in-cut. That's why like Aiden is so good on those in cuts. And it also leads me a dry fire where I find like when I get that thing, I try to like wrench in with the thumb to kind of like pull into, but it's like bad. I dry fire more than I should because of avoiding a full crimp when I should on the street. Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. Um back to Carlo. No, you're good, you're good.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Um yeah, so yeah, I believe the second thing that I was gonna because I broke it down into three things. I think the second thing was He said everything in a gym is a pinch because it protrudes from the wall. So he's right. Like that there's no disputing that. However, I do think that like just because something can be grabbed a certain way does not mean that it begs to be grabbed that way. There are certain holds for sure that are, you know, half cramped edges with a thumb where you really just want to pinch it, but there's also just a lot of holds that are just like in-cut. And it's like, yeah, just because they protrude from the wall a little doesn't mean that it's the most advantageous grip position to be in a half crimp. So it's like I'm thinking of like uh just you know, in cuts, right? Like an in cut crimp with like a s with like a tapered back. There are lots of these on the TB2, like anyone would know what I'm talking about. Just like the thumb surface area is very negligible, and the in cut, like the depth of the end cut is significant. So it's like if we're half crimping holds like that, I would argue that actually that's going to be detrimental in the long run because you're not able to use these variety of grips. Like, yeah, you don't want to crimp every hold in the gym you grab, but you also definitely don't want to pinch every hold in the gym just because it protrudes out from the wall.

Support From Patreon

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who helped make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else, and those episodes are ad-free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay, back to the pod. So, this is what's interesting is when it comes to boards and outdoor climbing, and you made some comment about like how you didn't want to go down the rabbit hole of what kind of grip you might want to be best at for X, Y, Z grade. And what seems to me is that what it takes to be an extremely good, say, TB2 climber or kilter climber or a moon as well is different from what it takes to be a great like V17 climber. And I find that I'm really good at pinching holds on the board and and also that kind of jump and latch on these, they're not that small holds, like does not translate to hard boulders as well as you might hope. And this like ability to like really like access that in cut and really you know close it down, you know, make a fist or you know, a full crimp, make a fist, and you know, own that and pull in is a different style than what we see in most of the standardized boards right now.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Yeah, yeah, it's totally different. I think the they're different skill sets and everyone's gonna be better at one than the other. But like I do think that um even if one of them might be more advantageous like down the line, you know, like one of them has a higher ceiling, but you know, another one is better for like this and that. Like, I do still think that like in theory you should be doing both like you and training them simultaneously. Uh if for no other reason to, you know, you come across this grip outside, like I'm gonna use it in the most correct way. I mean, for myself, I'll just speak for myself here. Like, I like am a very crimpy person, I've always been like crimpy. It was to the point where like, you know, when I was like 18 or something, which is like probably the purely strongest just my fingers have ever been, is when I was like 18. It was just I was like light and climbing on the spraywall, the red board, which is just tons of in-cut, tiny ass little death cramps all the time, and I my fingers were unendurable. Like I would say that it was the strongest that my fingers have ever been, but I was like the least well rounded I've ever been. It was like I was grabbing slopers with a full crimp. I'm grabbing like fat pinches indoors, you know, where it's like super nice to like put your thumb around it. I was like crimping them. And so it's like something like that is like very obviously not useful. Like it's like I was so good at crimps that it was actually like detrimental, where I was like, I had climbed, you know, pretty hard at the time in a crimp style, but like my half crimp or pinch or like all those other grip type style was like three or so grades weaker, like at least, even sometimes even four grades weaker. And so I was compensating by like trying to use these grips uh on holds that aren't conducive to grabbing them that way. And I still do this uh to this day, just because like at the end of the day, like you get up, a climb, you're gonna do it the easiest way you can, you know, it's it's it's do or don't do. So it's like after this much time, like I'm only gonna get so good at half crimping as like someone who's been crimping most of my life. But like I'm I at least have made like good, you know, strides to get a little bit more well-rounded where it's like I'm not crimping slopers anymore, you know.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Yeah, yeah. Well, and having that understanding of climbing so that when you see yourself doing something that is dis uh you know not advantageous for that move. Like I have a buddy who is good at crimping uh and not so much at much else, and we'll be on a board, it'll be like a pinch, and he'll full crimp it, which would be fine, except for we're like doing some drive-by move, and then he loses the hand that he was crimping on because if he had pinched it, he'd have like some opposition because he'd have a thumb on, and you're just like, dude, like I know you're good at crimping, and yes, like you should make a move however you can make it, but you know, look at how this works. Like, you know, have the understanding of what you need to do to make the climb as easy as possible. And you know, if you can't do that, you gotta go back to the drawing board and be like, okay, like I need to be able to climb things other than just a straightforward crimp layer. Or I mean, I don't know. Actually, I that same buddy, I feel like he only climbs straightforward crimpliers and only climb on those and literally will be like, oh, that's not my style. I won't do that. And I do not agree with that unless you're telling me that it'll be the world's first V18 because you're you know so good at that style. But in general, I hate when people are like, oh, I don't do that. I don't climb that style. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? It's just climbing.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Yeah, it's definitely, I mean, everyone climbs for their own reasons, and like I get it when people like avoid certain things or they won't go to certain climbs because of like, you know, they don't they know that they can't do them or whatever. Um, but I just think that's like I don't know, it's just a little lame. Like it's like, come on, man, like just go try it. Like, you know, yeah, yeah. Give it a go.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Okay, Ben, we have to keep moving on. You've probably had one more other thing you want to say, but we said enough.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

Oh yeah. I'll just I'll just say real quick, like the there's no shade, like I'm not like come trying to come at you, Carlo, if you're seeing this. Like, is it's nothing personal. I just think that like we come from entirely different backgrounds where like you are like super beast at like the half crimp grip, and I I'm traditionally like pretty beast at the full crimp grip. And I do I do see what you were trying to say, like climbing in cats, like which is a gem that we both have trained at at some point, lots of pinches. Um, super beneficial to be able to use the half crimp with the thumb, like super engaged grip. And I do think that like any hold in door can be treated as a pinch, and that's like maybe a good mindset if you're trying to get good at pinches, but it could also just you know pigeonhole you if you're just avoiding a crimp position. That's all I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Yeah, yeah. No, it's good, it's good to go down those rabbit holes too and see why each style works and works in different ways so to understand and then can like also apply it in the right way. Like you, I mean you should have these toolboxes and understand why different tools work for different situations, is really what it comes down to. But then, like you're saying, like if you're gonna be if you're gonna be doing your first X of the grade, you're probably leaning into your strengths, and we all know that. But also, like at least you you just gotta be aware of what you're doing. I feel like a lot of times people like don't understand that they're full crimping a sloper, and you're like, dude, like you sure about that? Um okay,

Looking Back At Board Lords 1

SPEAKER_00 48:08

we're about to switch over to Michael talking about the TB2 expansion that just got announced, uh, a 16 by 12. But as a way to transfer over to it, you were on Board Lords. You did a board, you are a board lord, and it was a pretty early one with you, Noah. Was it Noah and Zach? A young Noah, too. Uh a young Noah. Just yeah, tell me uh tell me about that experience. What was it like being on Boardlords? And then I'm gonna ask you what it was like setting for board lords because yeah, uh, you've you've helped the series continue to grow.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

Yeah, I was on the very first installation of Board Lords, which uh was super fun. I remember their whole concept for it uh when Mike reached out to me. Uh he was just talking about how he wanted to get me and Zach and like some other one other strong person. Uh like I don't think he had decided at the time who it was gonna be, and just get them on the TB2s, and they were him and Quinn were gonna set some hard shit and like it was gonna be sick, and like that was that. And so I was just I was immediately like, yeah, hell yeah, I'll show up for this. Like, that sounds fun as hell. Like, I'd session with these guys on this board anyway, like, you know, and we might as well like make some content out of it. And so they ended up picking Noah to be the third, and I don't think like Zach and Noah, or maybe even me. I we definitely no one knew Noah super well because uh Zach was living in Salt Lake, I was living in Boulder, and Noah was living in Colorado Springs, which is also in Colorado, but it's like two hours away, so it's like a completely different scene and stuff like that. Um, but definitely I think after that session I knew who Noah was. Um that's for damn sure. I mean, he's absolutely insane. Uh but the actual experience being there is just super fun. It was like uh a lot different than what you and I experienced uh watching secondhand of like Hamish and all of them. There wasn't like as many people, but there was still like a good amount of like tension staff and like homies just kind of chilling in there, and it like made it like a good, exciting, like electric environment. The boulder that they cooked was like I think the perfect difficulty for the time that that came out. Like I think that like I kind of maybe missed the mark. Like I assumed that it could be V14 because I thought that the breakdown was like V12 into V12, which would make it like V14, but like I think that like as the boards and the grades on the boards have like settled in a little more, like it settled at 13, which I think is like super fair. Um the names of those boulders, do you remember? Uh the one on the mirror, which everyone ended up doing, was 10,000 days. And the one on the spray was I think like something Machina. I can't remember. It was like a really fucked climb that I think only still has one ascent by some dude in the northeast who called it V13, which is just absolutely ridiculous. That shit is not V13. Um I don't know. Like I I can't remember his name.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

But Michael was telling me random ones that yeah, doing V13. I know, like literal unknowns. I remember that episode. Actually, I'm not 100% sure if it was that one where I watched Noah and total unknown. Dude, he was kind of unknown back then. I mean, you didn't know, no one really knew him. And I was like, oh shit, like there's something about the way this guy moves that just looked. He just kind of locked some things down, both with his like even like his lower body and like you know, knew how to really bike well and clearly had to spend a lot of time on boards, but there was a there was a hint there. Um, and I mean I'm sure everyone had heard about Noah in the sense like there's some kid with like really strong fingers, but that doesn't mean shit. Uh it's you just you hear that all the time. You hear people coming up all the time. It was cool to see like an early version. And uh yeah, uh, I don't know, just fun to think back to back then and what Board Lords has become. And yeah, I'm looking forward to that new facility that they like just announced. Um, it looks dope. That's gonna be that it's gonna, they're they're taking it seriously, and I'm I'm all for it.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

I love that series, man. Yeah, I know it's it's exciting stuff. I'm I'm hyped to go to Colorado sometime and check it out.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Okay, uh just to close the loop on Brian Squire and Boardlord. So he did How Soon Is Now that 15 that we watched Hamish do, and I gotta say, I think Brian did it with better style, like the way he looked on it. I mean, to be fair, Hamish had done whatever that other one was called.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

Asia's the Boulder Eyes uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Yeah, oh yeah, you set that, and that morning he had done uh things done changed uh up in Bokeh. Nice, and yeah, yeah, and I forgot about that. All right, okay, so uh so maybe he was a little tired. I know I would be a little tired, but uh you know, Brian kind of he didn't hint that perhaps it was soft, he just was like, this is the reality. I did it like this fast. You know, I just I just did it. Um do you think that he is on a generational run on the TB2, or uh it was maybe not the board world's first V15?

SPEAKER_02 53:08

I think that Brian is the best T B2 climber in the world. Like, I I cannot imagine anyone being better on that board specifically than Brian. And I've seen I've seen all of the people in person climbing on it. I mean, I was there when Hamish did it. I've seen Sean RHM climb on it. I've seen Noah, who I think I mean, Noah is just insane, don't get me wrong. But specifically on the TB2, I think Brian Squire is, he has it's like everything that he's good at. It's got like the size of holds with the half cramp, the steeper it gets, the holds aren't super in-cut usually, so he's able to force moves that climb in his style with the body tension that I was talking about earlier, where it's kind of that athletic tension where you're snappy, but everything just stays in place. I think that like I I cannot fathom someone being better on that board than Brian Squire, because if so, that person I mean, they would have to be like someone I I guess I've heard of. I just don't, I don't know. I mean, like, there's strong boards, like Jules and Mejdi are super strong on the boards. Um, Magus is pretty strong on the boards.

SPEAKER_00 54:19

Like, um, have you seen Ert Ertboard ERT? I don't even know what his name is. He's like, I can't, I think it might be at like cost. Yeah, he's strong. He's strong. I've seen that guy on the app.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

Yeah, Ben Chem is super strong on boards. Yeah, like yeah, like that this is like a perfect example. Like Ben Kem is kind of he has made a name for himself as this super strong TB2 climber. Like Brian is like substantially better, and that's no shot to Ben Kim. It's like Brian can do the Ben Kim shit. Like, you know, maybe like Ben Kem is definitely better at like the one-arm crazy, you know, like latching and like campusing style and like cutting loose and all that. But Brian can do all that stuff, but he can also do the hyper body tension, like really fucked up client. Like, it's like now I'm glazing Brian. Last time it was Daniel, now it's Brian, but I do genuinely, I mean, like, I I don't know anyone that could keep up with Brian on the TB2 in his current shape right now. I've never seen something like it. So him calling How Soon is Now, maybe it's 14, maybe it's 15, that means absolutely nothing to me. Like, I think that how soon is now is probably V15. Like, you know, if that climb were outside, I could easily see it being V15. I just think Brian is so, so good in that style that he genuinely has no idea how hard any of the shit he's doing is.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

Cool. That is exactly what I was hoping to hear. It's interesting that you mentioned the kind of like crazy one-arm stuff of Ben Kim, or I watch these boulders that Sean RHM sets on the TB1. I'm like, are we even climbing here? Like, what is going on with this stuff? Yeah, that's like that's just ridiculous. It's like, it's it's interesting. Like, I can't, I like that he is like seeing the board differently than me. Like, I just like I just do not see that. I could never make that up because I'm just like, I don't even know what's going on here. This is very divorced from rock climbing, but I also appreciate that because it's like he's not like Sean's like telling everyone, this is you know, the coolest thing that I yeah, that climbing is all about. This is the best training for V17. Like he's just doing it because it's kind of like kind of dope.

SPEAKER_02 56:28

Um yeah, and it's just he's just fucking around, like he's just having fun. Yeah, his boulders are just crazy. He don't he mainly climbs on the mirror. So I'd be really interested to like for him to get or or reset the TB2 wherever he lives to a spray to really be able to like compare him to Brian, because like I would I would imagine that like you know, of the few people that could even touch Brian in terms of like ability on the TB2 right now, like it would have to be a Noah, a Sean, RHM, or like a Ben Kim type. Like it would have to be someone who's already really good on the boards and super specialized.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

Yeah, but what you said that is interesting is that how Brian climbs with that body tension, it's almost it's like that's like classic climbing ability. And you know, it's a little different than what we're talking about with the one-arm stuff, and to have that combined is is where, although Ben Kim did lucid dreaming, Ben Kidd did lucid dreaming.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

Yeah, Ben Kim, I mean Ben Kim did lucid dreaming. I mean, I did lucid dreaming and I'm nowhere close to Brian on the TV too. I'll put it that way. Like it's it's a different, it's a different thing. I mean, climbing on the board and climbing outside are at this point like almost unrelated. It's not like it's not as bad as like comp climbing or something or speed climbing, you know, but it's like climbing on the board is a good indicator of how well you're gonna climb outside, but it's not like the end all be all. So it's like Brian is almost at this point, I think, with climbing on the boards where it's like he's so good that it's like it's not even like that useful anymore, which is crazy to imagine.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

But aren't you? I'm like, I 100% agree. People who are not at that level don't take that too seriously, where like you going from V5 to V9 on the boards will help you climb outdoors, like you will get stronger. Um if we're talking about like going from doing uh a ton of the V13s on the board to doing even more V13s on the board and doing them in these crazy, like one-arm dyno things. Not sure that's gonna translate, uh, but I'm kind of I'm kind of like here for it. Like I kind of like seeing the ridiculousness. Like it's nice to see just the physicality, like board culture is its own thing. And I don't know, like it may go off like in some crazy tangent, but I have a feeling somehow that will inform climbing, either outdoor climbing or comp climbing, like somehow what they're exploring will add to climbing. Like, climbing's complex, climbing's cool, let them do that stuff. Uh, I'm I'm all here for it.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, at the bare minimum, they're doing hard moves at a steep angle and they're on the wall for some amount of time, so they're gaining some amount of resistance and strength, and even if it's on some weird ass shit where you're doing a jump 360, you know, turnaround backflip off the fucking wall, like it's athletic in some way, right? So it's gotta help somehow.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

I still will argue that there are going to be climbs that get unlocked outdoors because of the crazy shit they're doing. I always point to Chris Sharma dinoing a bunch, and when I was starting to climb, people like didn't dyno, like jumping, like it's like three points on. Like, drop me fucking like three points on, like that French like spandex, just very precise, like dancing up the wall, and then Sharma's like yelling at jumping, and then we get something like three degrees of separation. And so I don't know, like I'm always like, who knows what's gonna come out of that, but um that's true.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:00

Maybe there's some futuristic thing, I think that's where your head's at. There's like some new thing that could get pioneered via this style, and it's just yet to be found.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

Yeah, but I I I mean, I just put that out there because it's hard to imagine what the future holds, and so like fundamentally they're still climbing on grips on a flat wall. Like it's not that crazy. Um, but they're doing crazy shit. So like it's not like parkour where we're like setting up some weird, like like literally doing backflips. So um uh

Setting Good Spray Walls

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

Ben, we didn't even get to the topic uh of the day uh and we're not going to, but I just want to put it out there and set it up because one of the things that we really wanted to talk about was spray walls and your opinions about spray walls. And I think that even though we uh we don't have time to go into it, um, I do want to point out that we said something about like we're or we're talking about how DB2s, kilters, moon boards at these highest levels don't always transfer. We we talked about how a lot of times they're protruding from the wall and people are pinching things and and like how you know it depends on what your goals are basically. And so you had strong opinions about how to make a spray wall. Um, and so can you just kind of like tease what that might look like? We can't go down that rabbit hole because we still have another segment to do, but um just yeah, yeah, yeah. Did I prep it for you at least a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:22

I mean, I think the biggest thing is just hold variety. I think that like there's a lot of companies that make a lot of really sick grips, but there's not one company that makes all the grips that you would need to train and could possibly put them in a 12 by 12 space. Uh I think that like a spray wall uh at 45 to 50 degrees is like usually just like a perfect solution to that. Where you're they're usually maybe not as wide or a little taller, they're not as tall but a little wider, or something like that. And so you can do more moves. The grips are just totally different, um, the textures of the grips are different. Um I think just setting a spray wall or just climbing on a spray wall is just like at this point, like an entirely different thing and skill than climbing on a standardized board. And I think that there's something like it's like feels less gamified, like it feels kind of more connected with like what you would be doing outside, whether it's the grip types or the footholds or just the variance in movement that you're gonna experience climbing on that. Whereas I feel like a standardized board can become a little bit same-y. It feels like you're doing like a lot of the same moves on similar difficulty climbs. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

I thought what you're gonna say is just there should be way more micro razor edges that you can't pinch, that you have to bear down, that you have to run in control.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:48

That's really like I mean, yeah, that's true. That's true. And there should, I mean, definitely like not a lot of macros. Like if you're cli especially if it's a conventional spray wall where it's not something like cats, where it's like this whole elaborate gym with tons of different angles and stuff like that. Like, if we're just talking the simple, like big ass piece of plywood with holds on it, like there should not be a lot of like big macro slopers. I think that those spray walls that are at like what the training center or like the very stereotypical like competition spray wall where they just have like a bunch of fucking huge fiberglass slopers everywhere. It's like those are like maybe good for athletes that are doing that whole Olympics thing or the comp thing, but like I've never met anyone who has benefited like notably from climbing on those big macro spray walls. I think those are just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:45

And freaking expensive. Like, why is the gym to yeah, like just go you know what we ended up with on our spray walls, and even when we didn't have a spray wall and we were just making up climbs on our steep wall, is you grab a lot of foot chips, like you end up grabbing foot chips, you know. It's like because that was the only really small in-cut holds that we kind of had around. And it's just funny how like that's kind of what ended up being. Like you stayed away from the buckets and the stuff, and it was like, Yeah, climb on foot chips. Um, okay, well, you did a good job. Uh just even uh the tiniest little comment on the spray walls. Of course, we got went off into deep tangents of rabbit holes and glazing Brian lucky guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He deserves it though. He he's a little more underground. So yeah, I think more people should be paying attention to whatever he's gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

Okay, Q clip of Brian doing V15. Go look in the show notes. I'll I'll make sure my editor tosses in that that uh that video of him on Hamish's V15. Yeah. Um okay, Ben, I'm gonna I'm gonna close out our segment, open up the one with Michael Rosado from Tension talking about the new TB2 expansion 16 by 12. Did a really fun segment with him.

Michael Rosato Joins Us To Talk About The TB2 Expansion

SPEAKER_00 1:05:07

Michael Rosotto, you are on a segment of board talk. A segment. This is not the entire thing, but still you and me, bud. How's it going?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:15

I'll take what I can get, Josh. I'm doing well.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

How are you?

unknown 1:05:18

Oh, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

Um Michael, this is a segment about the TB2 expansion. You guys are expanding the tension board all the way to 16 by 12. I think 12 by 12 is the current largest size. Will was on good temps and just kind of started talking about the TB2 expansion. I thought he was going to talk about the new TTC, the Tension Training Center. And all of a sudden, he started talking about a TB2 expansion. And so I just knew, of course, of course, we had to talk about on board talk. So, just so everyone remembers, Michael, you are you work at Tension, you are one of the faces of tension climbing and the immensely popular YouTubes where you guys do comps on the T B2. all the T B Two stuff. So let's hear about man. Let's let's hear about the T B two expansion.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:05

Yeah, I mean as Will mentioned on on Goodtemps, like we've both been kind of alluding to things happening in the background and and you've you keep on asking about them. Uh which I mean you've known about them for a while, so I'm sure you're just eager to talk about them. But yeah the the the two things that we have been working on is the TTC. We'll save more of that for later. And then yeah the the expansion the 12 foot high 16 foot wide TB2. So that's that's been in the works for a good while now. But yeah it's kind of probably say this again before it's over with but it's I keep calling it like the final form of the T B2. So the final boss.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:46

Well uh let's just start there in that I got a bunch of questions. You know what's funny is actually I feel like although Will I want to say he like leaked it on good temps I don't know if that was supposed to be like some big official announcement but I actually got a bunch of messages because it was starting to show up on the app like Will was like setting on it and people were like texting me like what do you know about this? And I was like I don't know anything don't don't ask me but I I want to know why a 16 by 12 like who's interested in 16 by 12? When did you guys first conceive of a 16 by 12 like that it's big dude 16 by 12 is no joke.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:21

Yeah yeah I think we'll mention this before on GoodTims but we had we had kind of planned to do that from the get go. Um but obviously you know that's not a widely adopted size at least yet so we didn't start there. And there was also some shapes that we wanted to kind of take our time with see how the middle of the board kind of developed and then then we kind of saved it for a point at which we were like okay now we know how this thing like how this thing acts how people are going to set with it etc how popular the board in general is going to be right um but now that we are in a place where we feel like we've got a green light on a lot of those those things might as well do it. Especially with the training center being developed right we are kind of doing both of those alongside each other because we were like look we're building this space from the ground up we might as well start building the 16 foot wide because ultimately we're going to want two of those in there. And so yeah it made a lot more sense to kind of build that or alongside our space so that we had enough room to account for two of them in there. But yeah I mean as to why I mean we've noticed that uh new facilities are just more willing to give a greater amount of space to their boards right and their training setups. And we just felt like we could really complete the experience of the TB2 like just with a little bit more space. And you know when we were designing and I I've maybe mentioned this before but when we were designing the TB2 in the first place we built everything around like the smallest size right it was the the 10 by eight so 10 foot high eight foot wide yeah that's our that's like the smallest footprint. But the point is is we kind of built the thing from that from the core out whereas like a lot of times when you see smaller crops or bigger crops or whatever like a lot of times and and we've done this in the past with the TB1 right like we'll start with the bigger thing in mind and then we'll just kind of cut it at a certain part and the experience is just not the same when you do that. And so when we were developing the TB2 we were like all right we're going to start from the core and we're going to build the best experience at every crop size we possibly can. And so yeah it was that's what we did with the 10 by 8. And as it as we've kind of added crops on like as the crops get bigger there's like new holes there's new unique experiences that are added to the core of the board and and so yeah we were just like the 1212's awesome but we feel like it it's not telling exactly the full picture yet and so we were like okay let's let's do it but that's kind of it but uh have have you climbed on a just as kind of my case in point have you climbed on a 12 by 8 like a standard size TB2 like kind of the standard moon board size TB2? Yes I have one time in Canada. Yes okay in Toronto. But you mostly climb on a 1212 right yeah yeah I'm I'm blessed. Yeah but but just the the point I'm making is like you notice like this massive experience difference between those two exponents it's not that extra it's not that the 128 is bad but that extra two feet on each side of the board really opens up you know what we've done with each crop is we're adding new holds new experiences all that stuff like it's not it's not just more of the same it's kind of a way for us to just expand on the experience. And so that's that's kind of the point I make is like we were like if we can make the impact of the difference between a 128 and to the 1212 be what the 1212 is to the 1216 then there's a lot of cool shit still to pack into this system. So so that's what we did.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:53

And it really is turning out to be something really unique that the even the 1212 doesn't really have so well I echo that thing that when you have those extra couple of feet on each side I I just use that word exponential because it's not just what would be 50% bigger and thus it's 50% better. I don't know man it's just well I also have a moon board in my garage so I'm used to the 8x12 size and it's so weird going back to an 8x12 after being on 12 by 12. Like it just feels I mean I feel like I can almost span the entire thing like uh with you know between two holds which I kind of can and and so it's it's a huge change although gotta tell you I've never climbed on a 16 by 12 and so I I've walked by those boards like I've seen them in person. I got I I said at the beginning they're big dude like it feels it's like right on the edge of what feels like a board like in a in the sense of board that I think of versus it almost becomes like a gym wall. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:56

Yeah yeah no totally and I I I think that it really gives you more space to kind of do some wacky ass movement. And I mean one of in and you know part of what we wanted to do with this expanded space was to add new shapes that could put you out in space more that really belong on the edge of a board. Things that are a little bit more high profile. So that's part of it too is that we're we're really integrating things that you couldn't really put any closer. And not everything is that way not all the new holds are that way but a lot of them are and it really again it it just expands all of the crazy shit that you can do and and what has come from the 1212 like it's just it's bigger better in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:37

This is why I love you guys and how you think about boards can I know exactly what you mean by bigger more high profile shapes on the edges but just expand on that a little bit. I feel like I'm I'm not sure people that you kind of slip that by and I think that's important for how you can explain how boards work and how climbing works and why you might put those shapes on the sides.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:58

Yeah so you'll notice a lot of the bigger holds that we have on the 1212 that are closer to the center like they're bigger as far as sort of uh radius or whatnot or footprint but they don't sit very high off the wall and that was by design right because when you're you know say you've got the board set at 30 degrees and there's a big hold in the way of a crimp like you can't have it super high profile because it will block it will block several holds around it. Or if you do you've got to be really careful not to obstruct any you know direction that you may be coming across that hold. So when designing it we were like we've got to keep these as low profile as possible while still offering the experience we're trying to go for for all of the high the bigger holds but for the for the 1216 like the the width but being that that's that's as wide as this board's ever going to be we were like now we can actually pull some things off the wall because they're not going to be in the way and they're gonna allow you to kind of to really utilize more space get out in space like for example one of the one of the things that we added to this set was you know the dam bar we we've got the dang bar the dam bar and now we've we've introduced one what I'm calling the goddambar because it's a huge version it's a huge version of that and it it sticks off the wall so so much that you can fully toe hook this thing. Whereas the dam bar like you could do a lot of footwork you know intricate things off of it but it it didn't really allow you to dunk a full toe behind it. But now you can do stuff like that. So it is it yeah you can't really put those things in the middle of a board and they're designed to stay on the outer perimeter but uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:40

That was literally the one that I was thinking about. Yeah the footprint like these jet out from the wall further like depthwise things that you would be scared to slam your elbow against but which allow a little more three-dimensional type of climbing which boards are maybe don't excel at you know you don't have like big dihedrals and stuff and that's okay but it's also nice to be able to do bicycles or toe hooks or more heel hooks uh and I can see why it's always this tricky balance because what I really like about the TV2 and the holds are that they're these like multi-use things where it's like okay this part could be held like this or you could flip it later like this especially if it's steeper. We know this is like a little notch for a toe or like a place to smear but then also there's dual techs that kind of force you into certain ways of using it. Hard to fit that in to small holds like you you want a little bit of a footprint but then you also don't want to be sticking out too far and smash your elbow. And so I don't know just cool that you guys balance all this stuff and then you said now that you know this is the final four of the board I just got to ask like why is 16 by 12 the the final size for for the TB2?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:51

I think the width is that's about as far as at least in our case proven that people are going to like integrate into a facility. Height wise it didn't make a lot of sense as far as going taller because you know when you're dealing with adjustability and you and you're trying to offer you know accessibility to wide audiences meaning it needs to be climbed this thing needs to be set up at zero degrees. When you when you set a 12 foot tall board up with a sizable kicker up to zero degrees it's very tall already and there's also like space constraints you know people are usually what we found usually able to uh fit something that's wider but taller is tough because a lot of these training spaces end up end up being like on the first floor underneath you know another floor or on a second level where the you know the ceiling there's always constraints and so we just found that the the 16 wide and uh 12 tall made the most sense to stop at for this system and I don't I don't really think you know maybe in the future if there's an indication that people are like we want to be maker then maybe maybe we'll develop something for that. But I I think that given what has already come on the market what data we have that people are you know willing to fit this particular size in in their locations then I that's kind of why we landed there. But who knows what the future holds I mean as these develop like we might find that hell people are actually going to build their facilities around these things and so then we can make it as big as we want. But I for right now I think that's big enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:30

Well I told you w my little bit of experience with that size and seeing them is that although 16 by 12 is massive I still think 16 foot wide is not really conducive to two people climbing on it at once. And so then if you just think of yourself okay we want two people on some future wall at once now we're talking again we're talking like gyms almost that that's like a very different thing to think about versus this is kind of the max for one person I want to echo the height like when you hear 12 feet it doesn't sound that tall but the gym I'm at has a huge kicker and I really like that. I love having a big kicker but it is like kind of tall at 30 and also the way that we deal with boards and the kind of difficulties that get set you often have wild hard moves near the top and if you're like 14 feet off the ground like hucking to like sideways to a bucket yes maybe you could see that on board lords um but I don't want to wreck myself like that's uh you know I'm and I'm I'd say I'm more uh risk tolerant than most in indoor climbing because I always feel like I can land on my feet but dude people are gonna get wrecked if they're doing like crazy V10 dinos at 14 feet on yeah you know on boards.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:44

Agreed and we we've noticed I mean even our new facility we have a much bigger kicker than we did in the last setup. We had a much lower kicker and this one it was kind of tough for us to develop the layout because it was sitting so high off the ground that we were like okay we needed to almost stack pads to to create sit starts and just sort of to simulate not having such a high kicker. So because we needed to know where like what's the lowest we can play some of these start holds right because we were realizing like we were starting to set them lower but they were in the right spot to us because we were standing so high but if you were sitting there you're like oh shit this is actually not you know if I don't have a big kicker here then that's that's not going to work. It's gonna be too bunchy.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:24

So uh but yeah no they're they're huge like in our in our new space when we put them up to those those uh lower lower angles it yeah you're falling for quite a bit yeah that thanks for thinking of the the poor folks who only have in their garage and don't have a big kicker you're those poor people who poor guys I was measuring my garage I was like can I fit a 16 foot wide in here um okay let's talk more about the holds in the expansion uh you did mention that there are these bigger more uh uh goddammit bar uh which uh is bigger but I also noticed some super itty bitty micro crimps as well and I also noticed that there is no wood holds just yeah take me through some of the the the holds that are getting added.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:10

Well let me let me start from the top I'll just list off some specs about it so that we can get this out of the way. So it's 12 foot high 16 foot wide as we've said there's 192 holds added to the 1212. So the 1212 has it's a lot 400 yeah the 1212 has 498 total holds this one will now have uh 690 holds total there's 88 wood holds added to the expansion and 104 plastic holds so there's actually significantly more plastic than there is wood like you said.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:45

Sorry I misspoke though it's not that there's not wood holds it's that there's not newly shaped wood holds am I right okay yeah we we use the same wood holds and kind of just repeated some of the ones that we yeah we thought would would be good didn't show up enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:00

Definitely KFCs those things are too good at too many things. But uh but yeah so 690 holds total uh and and one thing that people might not realize is the it's not just the wings of the 1212 that we added to so when you get the expansion there's like fill-ins of the 1212 too so wow it it completes the 1212 board so if you look at a 1212 you might see some open spots where holds could go we like really filled those in especially with the feet because we we have two new footholds that we kind of integrated into the middle of the 1212 in the middle of the board. And then we also completed the second what I call the secondary finish row. So not the top top row but the row right below that um the second to last row we filled in new holds there as well so just more opportunity even in the 1212 space to finish in different ways and use different foot types and whatnot. So there's 10 new plastic shapes that we added to the board. I'll just kind of talk about a few of them I sent I sent you over some photos of them so you'll know because it's that's kind of hard to describe some of them are so weird and complex that like you kind of need a picture to know what the hell I'm talking about. But one of the biggest ones we have added is we're calling it the Meg. Because it looks like this massive sharp shark fin. It's a it's a start hold but this one it's like it's a big start fin lower on the board that kind of kicks out in space. So it's great for like meat wrapping and like toe clamping and and heel hooking you can do all kind of shit with it. It's one of the ones that will likely stay on the outer perimeters. There's no way that we can integrate that in the middle in the prime spot because it just kicks out too much in space. But uh it's great. It's got a it's got a a little bit of dual text on certain portions of it but for the most part it's fully textured. So depending on the direction you're coming from you can smear on the thing that kind of juts out in space you can you can heel hook you can do all kind of crazy shit with it. So that's a new one.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:05

Well can can I ask about that really quick uh it looks like it's like kind of bigger it looks juggier but what's that thing like at like 50 or 60 degrees? It's not good.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:15

It's got so I didn't I didn't send you a picture of the the hold profile but it it has a bit of an in cut and it kind of just drops down so so it's not flat it kind of kind of gives you somewhat of an in cut but the best way that you can hold it is literally like meat wrapping the corner. So at super steep angles like you're kind of just laid back on this thing. Again it's not a super jug but you're just kind of like meat wrapping the corner of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:40

Okay so I got I got asked one more question. I I know that we'll we'll try we'll post these pictures they'll they'll they'll get linked or something but just like I just I'm just gonna ask another question because I like hearing about how you guys think about these things. So there's dual techs on this uh hold and it's kind of on the outside so you can imagine like a big fin that you grab onto but then on kind of the side that you are not grabbing onto like that in-cut hand side there's dual techs on different parts of it kind of where the hold meets the board itself and I'm just wondering why you guys put dual text on some of that part and then there's like notches that aren't and then like a little another um spot towards the bottom that has dual text like like part of it looks like a an area where maybe so your thumb isn't as good but then the bottom part kind of seems like I don't know I'm not sure why there's dual text there.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:33

Yeah so if you think about all of the ways that a hold can be oriented you kind of have to think about like well what am I willing to like allow both for the hands and the feet in every way this thing can be oriented. So the way the how I sent this picture to you it's kind of oriented more of like a side pull type deal. But this one on the spray there's one instance where it's actually turned kind of upside down in a way um and so we didn't want you to be able to step on the edges of this thing. But we you'll notice we left this like intentional notch that's really good for kind of an intricate foot if you want to bike it. So it for a bike that's what I thought nice. Yeah so but but we also left the whole surface of the back because it's just this smear because it kind of sits out in space that we don't have. And so it was all intentional.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:24

We were like we don't want you to use that but we want you to be able to use this and so there's just a bit of intention and accuracy built into to that um all right I'm sorry yeah sorry I make you go deep I just love hearing the thought process because I was like oh I wonder if that's to to bike like it looks like a spot that would make it a very specific bike uh but yeah cool stuff. I don't know uh always fun to I'm gonna keep going because there's 10 of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:49

Yeah there's like there's 10 holds and if I stand I'm we're gonna go okay I'll know if we'll get to all of them. Okay go ahead we'll get to all of them i'll I'll try to condense it but I'll I'll tell you some of my favorites the the next one I think is the most complex one of the most complex multipurpose holds we've put on the board it's we're calling it the boomerang if you guys see this in the app like and you're zooming in on it it it looks just like a boomerang it's kind of it looks kind of like the uh sort of a spin-off of the Mustang but that's what I was thinking yeah yeah this thing has got a lot going on it's tough to tell what the hell it even is from the 2D picture in the app but um it's shaped like a boomerang one side has a flat portion that's backed by a big swatch of dual tech so you can't pinch it uh the other side has this like subtle curvature on the top that in certain orientations you can pinch you can heel hook kind of subtly it's it's really weird and then on the other side on the inside there is this sort of in cut that gets increasingly better the higher you reach. So it's really weird. The picture I sent to you uh the part that's most chalked up there is just totally flat there's no in cut and you want to pinch it but there's this big ass dual tech slot on it or swatch on the side so you can't you really can't pinch it. It's just weird. There's gonna be a lot of crazy shit. I kind of can't wait to really do a lot with that hold. There's gonna be a lot of flippies on that one I'm sure Resile special.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:17

So I last time I was visiting you guys I got to see all these holes they were fresh out of the I think they they weren't hollow backed yet. I think they were like just almost like prototypes. But this one was really really cool and jumped out to me because it has one of those things where it's like a pinch where the thumb is better if you hold it in in that particular orientation. But then what you're talking about where it gets better and better if you were to treat like an undercling with the other hand and then the side like yeah it's just it's it's complex uh it's complex it's really cool. I thought it was one of my favorites. Yeah I was psyched on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:52

Um the only bummer is uh it's it's sitting on the this is one that we actually you know if let's say down the line you know no Promises, but let's say down the line we we do some different layouts or something. Like this is one we could incorporate into the middle, but very, very cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:07

Um, it's almost like a pinch or like a better in-cut pinch version of that, those big loaf things that are my favorite, the kind of slopey pinches that then have some dual text in the corners. People don't know what I'm talking about. What you guys call those? They look kind of like boobs on the on the mirror.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:24

We call them the beefy pinch, but a lot of people refer to them as slopers and whatnot. But yeah, those are the beefy pinches.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:29

I don't like that name. Yeah. I I've I'm I'm in the camp of like sometimes you just gotta let it run.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:34

I don't, I don't sometimes it just happens and you're just like, oh yeah, that's the whole name.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:39

So all right, all right, sorry, boomerang, very cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:42

So we talked about yeah, we talked about the goddamn bar. That's the that's the bigger version of the damn bar. Um, really, that thing is just begging to be toe hooked. It's gonna create some really crazy foot sequences. It it's basically a more accessible dam bar as far as what you can do with your feet. So more people are gonna be the dam bar was good, but you really had to like it's it it's really it was a really tough foot to use in a lot of complex ways. Like you can toe hook it, but it's really just the top of your toe. This one you can yeah, like no matter what you're climbing, you're gonna have you're gonna have that full experience with this thing. Um, but yeah, like we didn't have anything that you could just throw your foot behind and and just toss backwards off of a massive toe hook. Uh, this this is the answer to that. That's that one. Um, we one of my other favorite new holds is it's a new finish hold. We're calling the slot. This is probably going to end up being one of the most hated holds on the whole board. Uh it's basically it's a big matchable slot, but the entire top of the slot is no-text. So it's really tough to like haul ass at this thing without catching the top no-text portion and just getting spit off. In fact, the first time I put it on a board and was test running it, I did just that. I tried to just jump at it and see if I like how easy it was to hit, and it's not, especially when you're going fast. So yeah, people are gonna be doing some hard ass projects and then have to eye up this like accuracy move, and it's gonna, it's gonna be tough. But uh that's that's what makes it fun and interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:22

It feels like a purpose-built finish hold, too. Like it looks like a finishing hold because it's big and wide, it's like a definite two-hander matchable hold. I was surprised by how I think it's gonna be really bad when it's steep. I haven't climbed on these yet. I got to handle them. It almost reminds me of you know that duckbill hold kind of the finishing duckbill hold. Uh, like to me, I look at that like jug. Like it just looks like a jug to me, a big uh jugging out flap that you can just dunk and then it gets steep, and you're like, oh, this is bad. And I have a hunch that this is one of those holds where you might think it's okay, especially at lower angles, and you kick it back and you have to hit it with a lot more precision and and stay on it, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:06

And it does, it it very much scales. It it's not the it doesn't have this deep in cut like a lot of the jugs. It's got this sort of slow rolling slope in the back. It doesn't really bite back like a lot of the massive ones. So yeah, when it gets steeper and steeper, it turns into a little bit more of a sloper than a jug. Um, but yeah, really cool accuracy thing. And we ended up modeling this one. This one, we have a hold almost identical to this on the beast that has turned into one of our favorite finish holds because it just adds this extra level of accuracy after you're tired that is really cool to build into boulders. So we decided to integrate it. The one that people are always the most psyched about is the new end cut. We have this plastic, I kind of want to call it the blade. Maybe that'll stick, but it's like uh it's this like knife blade, it's the most Waco-esque hold on the board. If you know the wooden skirt crimps, it's basically a sharper plastic version of that. And everybody that's seen the new holes, they gravitate to that immediately. They're like, oh shit, like this is sick. But anyway, beyond that, there's like two new footholds. There's a new pinch uh that is smaller than a lot of the other pinches, but really good, um, but offers a different experience. Uh, there's a new finger bucket jug thing that kind of filled a gap we didn't have. There's also this weird ass ergo thing that I don't even know how to explain it. I thought it was a jug at first, but we oriented it in this way that it really is this crazy slopey side pull. It's got a foot integrated into it that everybody thinks is a thumb, but it's not. Anyway, shit ton of stuff going on. It's not just the same, it's not more of the same. There's a lot of really cool things that we built into this.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:48

So I can't believe I'm like trying to cut you short on this stuff that I just want to geek out for for now. I'm sure it'll come up more.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:55

Um, well, uh, there's also a couple of listener questions that got thrown in uh even before I asked for listener questions. People were saying it's after hearing Will on good temps. Um I think one of the ones that is probably most important to me and to other people is kind of like you have these new this new area that no one's climbed on. Like, are there going to be problems for it? Like, or is it just going to be kind of left out to dry? Because you know, uh it's new. And so uh what have you guys done to address that?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:28

Yeah, so one of the things that I don't know that everyone is aware of that we did with the TB2. Uh before we launched it, we padded the database. Like our our team internally padded the database with upwards of seven to eight hundred climbs. Um, that was split between the mirror and the spray. So we did have like around 500 boulders on the mirror. We ended up having like 250 on the spray because that one was developed a lot slower. But point being is we've got a whole team that's going to be dedicated to building out unique boulders on that size so that you know people aren't just buying that size just to have the 1212 boulders, right? So we're gonna be working the next few months to pad the database just like we did with the 1212. Um, we're gonna add classics on it, we're gonna do all kinds of stuff. So we've got this uh huge plan that we're actually gonna start next week to really start building it out so that people actually have a reason to get it, you know, uh and have things to climb. And the funny thing is too, is like a lot of people don't remember this because now it's you know, you got a million people setting boulders in there, but what we used to tell people when they were early adopting the TB2 is like go to tension climbing in the app. Like, not everything is designated classic, but it's made by our internal team, and usually it is a couple of us like testing and setting before we publish. So you're more than likely gonna be given good stuff. So point being there is like it's not just gonna be 200 to 500 climbs that's padded in there eventually. It's it's gonna be really good climbs that are vetted by us, even though they're not all classic, they're they're likely to be of better quality than the average uh boulders in the in the app. So point being, we're putting a lot of work into it. We're gonna do the same thing we did uh with the 1212 and uh yeah, make it worth getting.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:22

I I assume that these are more geared towards gyms just because I have a big garage. I still don't think I could fit one of these in there. Uh any are you allowed to talk about where we might see some of these come out into the market for so maybe even a timeline on that?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:37

Yeah, uh, so you can go ahead if any of you guys listening are interested or know somebody that's interested. We don't have it on the website yet. We're still buttoning up some details before we put it on there, but we can do custom invoices, we can get you on the list for one of these uh already if you just you just have to uh email us info at tensionclimbing.com and we'll we'll kind of chat through the process. But as far as we've got several that have been waiting for it. We've been communicating this to people, uh, a lot of people who have reached out to us uh and that we're kind of working with directly on facilities and whatnot. So a lot of people have been ready for it and have already invested in the 16-foot wide board, specifically waiting for it. So I can't tell you where there are because they're they're still in the process, and I don't I don't know if they'll even go, you know, you never know until you until they're done. The order has gone through, right? So uh, but I will tell you that there's already several like uh conversations being had and uh and plans being made to to put these out. So people are already psyched and it's not even on the website. So can't can't tell you where, but I know I can tell you that they are going out.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:46

So well, we'll I'll keep asking you every month uh where so I can go try it out. Uh yeah. Um and you like you think by the end of the year we'll start seeing them up in in gyms? Is that a reasonable guess? For sure. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:57

Yeah, yeah. Uh we have pretty good lead times. I mean, we pride ourselves on doing every freaking thing that we can on delivering boards in a timely manner, and we're really good about communicating lead times and stuff like that. And and being that we make half of the board in-house, like it's easier for us to control that. So, point being is yeah, I mean, conversations that are being had now, like, they'll be to the people by the you know, in summer, in the summer or by the end of summer.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:25

So I like that you kind of kind of broke the news here, you guys, not even on the website. Makes me feel super special. Uh well, I can't wait to come out and climb on it. I'm glad you had some time to hop on the segment. Yeah, man. Also on the docket was me making fun of you for going to Napa for a wine tasting so that you couldn't do a normal uh podcast. So, you know, just let everyone know you're you're you're out in Napa. What's your favorite wine there, Michael? What kind of wine are you drinking? You a sparkling wine guy? Is that no?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:58

I it's funny because I go, it's turned into like a yearly trip, but I'm not that big of a winer. Like I'm not some Somalia. I don't know all that. I just like the experience. I like the that part of the country. I like the whole experience. It's just fun. I don't know. I mean, it basically feels like going to Tuscany, but not traveling to Europe. So, but no, I I have a lot of I've had some favorite wineries. I I really dig Trefethin. If anybody ever has any of their wines, they're great.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:24

Um you're an Opus One kind of guy. Is that who you you're usually at? Opus one? Yeah, if you don't know who it is, yeah, just the Jarvis, you know, kind of like the the mid-market ones for for normies. Okay, yeah. Um I I will tell everyone that last time I saw you, I'm pretty sure we had a drink, but I think we were drinking Aperol spritzes even though we were in France. I don't know if we were drinking. How embarrassing.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:48

I know how embarrassing. That's my wife's favorite drink. She'll take an Aperol Spritz any day, anywhere, doesn't matter. Uh so it uh oftentimes ends up that I'm drinking one too. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:58

Well, uh, I used to be in the wine industry. I grew a lot of grapes. Uh I'm a farmer by trade from when I was a little kid. Um, just want you to know that I do know about wine. And if you were to pair something with Tool, I would recommend Zen. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:13

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:14

Good to know.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:15

You know uh the lead singer of Tool has his own wineries, right? I do, I I just remember that as you said that. There you go. Is that where you're going? Don't let me. No, no. I we we definitely gotta go. I I gotta go at some point. I mean, they're in, I think it's in uh Arizona, right? I'm pretty sure that it's it's a it's kind of odd. It's not where you would think a winery would be, but he's kind of cultivated his whole deal there. But anyway, uh funny enough though, I've got I actually am dragging Will and his wife Chelsea. Uh we're we're dragging them out this trip too. So uh you want to talk about somebody who doesn't know or doesn't care about wine, it's Will, but he's he's psyched to jump in and learn and have a little vacay.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:54

So man, dude, you guys go to beautiful places in the world and then sit out overlooking a vineyard and drink a nice glass of wine, have some food. It's good times. It just is. Like I don't care if you uh everyone likes wine, you just gotta get some good wine. Um well, thanks for making time to tell us about the TB2 upgrade. Uh and go catch your flight and go uh sip some wine and and uh enjoy your vacay.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:18

Of course, man. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:26

And now that you're back, because we don't have time because we had too much fun, I'm gonna go into the into the bonus questions because I think you're gonna like this one. It was from Michael Rosado.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:39

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:40

And he wanted to know more about the red one. If you want to hear that QA and other extra behind the scenes content from this episode and others, head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad-free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow, please share this episode with someone who would love it. Okay, see you next week.