#193 Hazel Findlay — How To Try Hard, Flow Vs. Clutch, and The Psychology Of Execution

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I don't know if I would even climb if I couldn't try hard as a climber. Like it just wouldn't tick the same boxes for me. It just wouldn't be the same activity. I'd probably rather try hard in some other activity than not try hard in climbing.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Welcome to the Test Piece Podcast. This podcast is about all things high-level climbing. How to go from good to great. I'm your host, Joshua Horsley. I've been climbing for over 30 years. We recently updated our Patreon, and now you get exclusive content from the guests that you love. You get your episodes before everyone else, and they're ad-free. Try it out now at patreon.com/slash testpiece with a free seven-day trial. Okay, let's start the show. Hazel Finley, welcome to Test Peace Podcast. It's psyched to have you on here.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Yeah, it's like to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Hazel, I've admired your climbing for a really long time because you've been doing it for a long time. And I think your success really hit right when I started becoming fully obsessed with climbing. So kind of kind of special for me to do an episode with you, maybe like a decade later. You've been you've been doing it a while.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Yeah, I feel like I've been around for a while now, I guess. Making me feel like a compliment.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

No, yeah, that's a that's a compliment. I mean, you're very experienced, is what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Yeah, experience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Well, you stood out back then because for for me, just bold, hard sending. Uh, you were the first woman to climb E9, correct?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Uh yeah, I mean, I guess this podcast being high-level climbing, you don't mind getting to the nitty-gritty, but you know, uh the the the the British E9, um, I guess, you know, obviously Beth Rodden had already done meltdown, which would get E10, you know, if it was in the UK. So yeah. It's it's more that yeah. So it depends, it kind of depends how you think about it, honestly. But um, yeah, the actual the sort of the British grade of E9 in the UK, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

No, you got it. You're you're the first woman to climb E9 because Beth did not say anything about uh grading meltdown anything. So uh I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

I mean, Beth's achievement was far superior to mine, and I I'm okay with that. Yeah, different, different ballpark.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

I will I will hand it to Beth. I don't know if you know this, Hazel, but I actually grew up climbing with Beth a long, long, long, long time ago, like 30 years ago. And she was incredible when she was, I don't know, 14. And uh it was no big surprise to see her be really successful. Although growing up climbing with her indoors and in the gym and in competitions, I was kind of surprised that she made her mark uh trad climbing. That was a little bit of a surprise, but a beautiful line, so good for her.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Yeah, no, amazing achievement. And it's I mean it's had it's had more sense now, right? Meltdown, but for a while it it didn't get a second ascent.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Have you ever tried Meltdown?

SPEAKER_01 3:14

I have once a very long time ago, yeah. Um, and found it very, very hard. Um, I'd be interested to try it again. Magic Line like drew me in more, I think, than Meltdown did.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

I see Magic Lion, a picture of you on Magic Line right behind you there.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Yeah, yeah, that's Magic Line, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Um yeah, Melt Meltdown's that super slippy rock, so it's like kind of forces a very aggressive, bouldery style, I guess. Um, which I would be interested in to try trying again because I think it's something unique for sure. But I don't know. Now I'm a mum, like I don't know if that's the best goal for me now. But anyways, we're going off track.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

No, no, that's that's perfect. Uh yeah, you mentioned Magic Line, which also didn't see an ascent for a long time. I think you said you were the third person to do, or just to get really nuanced, you were technically the second person to red point. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Uh second person placing the gear, yeah. So Rong Calc did it, but pink point, Lonnie did it placing the gear, uh, and then I did it. Yeah. And then now it's had a bunch of ascents.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, you said something about meltdown not seeing ascent for a long time. And both of those lines are kind of these hard, mythical, single-pitched trad lines in Yosemite. And I feel like you kind of opened up the floodgates for Magic Line. Did it like was it under people's range?

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Yeah, it's almost like if if that little British girl can do it who's not even that strong, like what the hell? Like, why are we not doing it? That's probably what was going through people's minds.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

How do you even decide to get on that? Like that that had legendary stuff. I mean, Ron Cauch, Lonnie Couch, um, yeah, those were icons of Yosemite climbing. So, yeah, what drew you to that?

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Uh, yeah, so I guess like when you've been around the valley enough and you're just like, you know, you hear people's conversations about certain climbs, and that was just one of those climbs. Like it was never in the guidebook. There was never any photos of it, but people were like, Yeah, up on the falls trail, there's this line, it's so hard, it doesn't have a second ascent. Like, this person's tried it and they couldn't do it. And this, but you know, just like had that kind of like mystique around it, I guess. And then so it was always in the back of my head, but then one day Carlo was going up there and I was like, I'll come, I'll come try it. And I literally had like four minutes on it because it like it just happened that a bunch of other people were up there, including Lonnie, because Lonnie's did it four times. I don't know if you knew that. He did it like he wanted to do it for every cardinal direction, so he was like trying it again. Anyway, I didn't have much time on it, but I was like, wow, this is like if that if I'm ever gonna try like a really hard single pitch, like like if this isn't spy inspiring, then I don't know what is, is kind of like what I thought. And then I didn't really like commit to doing it or anything, but then um one year I was like, Oh, I would really like to sort of push myself and choose a big goal, and then I was like, Well, why not that? So, yeah, that's how it kind of came about.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

How do you push past that mental idea of it being this thing that people tried but failed on? And you know, there's just something about going up to something and knowing that it's supposed to be really hard. And sometimes when you think something's gonna be super hard, it almost feels harder than it is. Like, you know, there's there's like this barrier there. Like, did you have that when you first tried it?

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Um I think basically like my mindset was that I was at the point in my climbing career that I actually really wanted to lean into a goal where it was uncertain whether I could do it or not, and I wanted to kind of learn from that experience and to like throw myself at it, knowing full well that I could come away empty-handed, and actually, like I was curious about that experience. Um, so in some ways, that's just what what I wanted. Like, if I had been a younger climber, I don't think I would have managed that so well, and I kind of would have wanted a more certain outcome, but at the time I was more than ready to go back empty-handed or to have to come back, train and and go back again, you know.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

It's funny because I totally understand that idea of having no attachment to the outcome of just really wanting to challenge yourself, but I also feel like somehow if I told myself that, I would have a hard time having that switch flip over of like, no, but I'm also going to do it. Like it's almost like if you're like, I'm okay with coming up empty-handed. I I feel like I'd be worried about switching over into I need to execute and do this now.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yeah, I mean, I think as I progressed through the route, though, I was like, oh yeah, I think I can do this. Like it's possible, you know. And then you start to get so your your mindset slowly changes, right? As something becomes more possible. But the tricky thing about Magic Line is like the feet, the footholds kept breaking. So, like me and my friend had this whole sequence figured out around the crooks, and then the like because basically with with climbing like that, you really like build your sequence around the best footholds, and then the so a whole sequence was around this one foothold, and then that foothold broke, and it just felt like we'd gone back to square one. It was so demoralizing. Um, but then you know, we just we just had to kind of like rally and and and and get psyched. Yeah, because I it turns out that I think that like Ron Calc must have like cemented a bunch of holds on, and then but it was like junky old school cement or something, and then so they just kept breaking. So like the nature of that route has changed a lot.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

And then didn't you end up sending like last try, last day, last minute that that classic clutch send?

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Yeah, yeah, it was like a storm coming in the next day, and then I had to fly home. And then what's interesting is I was like telling myself, oh you know, I don't do it, it's okay, I can come back in the spring or the or next fall or whatever. But then COVID hit, so like I really probably wouldn't have done that route, and then like a bunch of other life stuff happened, so like I didn't get back to the valley. That was in 2019, and I didn't get back to the valley until 2023. So it's actually kind of good that I sent when I did. But if you told me that then, that would have been too much pressure, I think.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

That is an amazing one to pull out because yeah, for people listening, maybe they don't realize that home for you, very far away, not just a quick little uh plane ride that if the valley is a full-on journey uh for you.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Yeah, it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Well, I I did ask you a little bit about being the first woman to climb E9, and I uh, like I said, you stood out to me as someone who was a really bold climber, and I don't know what it is about the e-grades and British climbing, but I'm always fascinated in the the bold nature and that tradition. And I'm just curious if you were always drawn to bold climbing or if it was just kind of like a requirement that you had to deal with due to the climbs you were drawn to.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Um yeah, it's hard to say really, because I think that when you've climbed for so long and you've climbed from a young age, you're shaped by the climbs that you climb. You know? And like when you're younger, you climb the climbs around you because you don't travel and like so. My just the the nature of kind of like the type of climbing that me and my dad did was British trag climbing mostly. That's what he was mostly interested in. And even at lower grades, fear management and keeping you cool and managing like the psychological aspect of the climb was just part of climbing. I don't think I'm especially bold, I just think that I sort of started doing that kind of thing at young age and was interested in it, was curious about it, and kind of learned enough skills to do it to some kind of level. And then obviously, you know, a lot of the sort of these scary grades, it's not like a are you that brave kind of rating because obviously the better a climber you are, the less scary these routes are because the less likely you are to fall off, right? So, you know, that the these E9 grades it encompasses like I'm trying an E10 at the moment, is my project, but it's not scary at all. It's like almost I mean, it's not sport route, but it's kind of like magic line. It's like you can make it safe. There might be a bit that's like a tiny bit heady or whatever, but you can make it safe. So yeah, the E-grade's always like a balance of difficulty and boldness rolled into one. So yeah, I don't know, I guess kind of a mix really. I guess I would say that I have just always been interested in the psychological side of climbing, but I also think I've been real like I I think people have pegged me as like this bowl climber, but like I love bouldering sport climbing and hard climbing and just pulling hard too. Like I've always been into that. Um it's just that's not what I'm known for.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Look at me. I'm just I'm saying that, I'm just adding to that lore. Well, it I mean, it's I I think because when I grew up climbing, I guess I always kind of felt like danger or boldness was kind of part and parcel with the climbing experience outdoors. Uh, and it's something that has maybe diminished as we've done more indoor climbing, we've done more bouldering, we've really focused on the athletic pursuit of climbing. And that's that's okay. I'm I I am I'm all for all kinds of climbing, but it just is something that I guess I grew up with seeing that, and so that's kind of something that did stand out to me, and I don't want to pigeonhole you, but I was also appreciative of seeing you know you encompass that full spectrum. And you know, I think that's why e-grades are interesting, is because it's supposed to capture what it's like up there, not just uh a single move difficulty, you know?

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Totally, yeah. And you know, I know your podcast is all high-level climbing stuff, but like for a lot of people, like sport climbing that's sort of perfectly well bolted, great bolts and stuff is scary. Like, I think we do underestimate that climbing is a kind of it is actually a uniquely scary sport, even when it's very safe. That's why when you tell people on the street that you're a climber, they're like, oh gee, you're a climber, um, you know, and they think it's really extreme, right? Because there is just something scary about being at a height of falling through the air, of swinging around on like an eight mil rope, you know, like what we do is kind of scary, and I think we do forget that. So whether you're doing like bold stuff or not, I think that psychological side of climbing is kind of underrepresented in discussions and training and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Well, I think we should also acknowledge that like when I was a kid and I would get scared climbing, it wasn't necessarily objectively dangerous, but my fear was subjectively real. And that was part of the draw to it was conquering that, was that idea of the mental aspect. And you've done a lot of work on that. You have a company called Strong Mind Climbing, and you know, I know that's not just about doing dangerous stuff, uh, but just that whole mental side of things is great. And I actually reached out to you, Hazel, because I saw a YouTube video that you recently posted, and it was called Trying Hard is a skill, and here's how you train it. And it just really resonated with me because I love that side of climbing. Like there's a physicality, there's a beauty, and then there's this deep try hard that always is accompanies my favorite moments in climbing. And yeah, just tell me a little bit about why you made that video.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Yeah, why did I make it? I don't know. I guess I'm interested in it. It's also something that people ask me a lot. It's like as a coach, and like doing these online courses that we do, it's something that comes up again and again. It's like, how do I how do I learn to dig deeper? How do I learn to get to that hundred percent? And there's not an easy answer to that. Um, but it is something I've thought a lot. And it's I and it's also something that I find hardest to coach, actually, because it's not always clear like why someone can't try hard, why some people can seem to try hard and some people struggle with it. Yeah, part part of it it is like the more you do something, the better you get for sure. But also, I I how I would talk about it is that there's like barriers preventing you from accessing some of those states. I don't know how much you want to get into it, but um all of it.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

All of it.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, maybe you could like we could give like a bit of a lay of the land because I know that you were a bit interested in like flow and clutch terminology and stuff. So I don't know, maybe I could just sort of dig into like what I would call performance states. Please. Yeah, um, I guess everyone's heard of flow. Has everyone heard of flow?

SPEAKER_00 16:30

I feel like everyone's I feel like if you haven't heard of flow, you've felt flow. And if you haven't felt flow, I'm sorry because it feels really, really good. And that's kind of uh one of the things we all chase. But just when things feel effortless, like when when uh you're just kind of when you just kind of flow up the wall and you send, you thought, wow, that felt good. And you're kind of almost disembodied, I feel like, too. There's a, or at least for me, there's an element of just kind of watching myself climb rather than feeling like uh I'm deeply involved.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yeah, so so like there's in in the like the literature, the research, or whatever, there's like nine dimensions of flow, and one of them they how they describe what they call what you've just described is a loss of self-consciousness. It's like this loss of sense of self, I guess, because you're so immersed in what you're doing. It's like most of the time there's probably like a little background noise in our brain that's like, what's this person thinking of me? Or like, how am I perceived, or was that the right thing to say or do? Or you know, there's like a kind of inner critic, like that judgment. But when we're in flow, it's like just like pure action, you know, or pure doing. And so, and then when we come out of flow, it usually feels really good as well. So you often feel it really ecstatic after a flow experience. But yeah, like the main thing is it's like characterized by this effortlessness, even though you're doing something hard. Um, but then like next to that is a state that is called clutch, which is kind of like debated in sports psychology research, um, as whether it's like an actual thing or not. You know, all these all these things in psychology are always kind of debated a bit. But basically, I think it really makes sense as something that like it's a useful concept in climbing, I think, because I think most climbers, especially high-level climbers, will know what it's like to flow, but they also know what it's like to be like in the that like state of like amorte, as they say in your in Europe, like to the death, where like it is not feeling effortless. Like it's feeling very effortful, but you're still climbing really well. You're still super focused and absorbed what you're doing, but it's like, oh my god, I could be off any moment, but I'm still on, how is this happening? kind of thing. It's like where you just really know that you are like trying with every fiber of your being.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Yeah, it's it's funny because on the effort spectrum, maybe they seem opposite where flow is kind of characterized as effortless. It's almost like I feel like you're like, I'm gonna just grab this hold. And like, yes, you're you're still doing it, like you still are directing yourself, but just you don't feel the exertion as much. Where in I guess clutch, I definitely feel like I'm trying hard, but there's still an element of losing oneself, and you're just very hyper-focused on that moment, and you're not worrying about what people think or say if you're yelling at the top of your lungs. So it's interesting because they may be on the other ends of the spectrum of effort, but I feel like there's still a similarity of like deep, deep focus and presence in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Totally. And I and then the and the key thing is that they're like optimal. So the di the debate in the research is like whether flow is more optimal than clutch, or whether clutch is what happens when you would be flowing, but the challenge level is just a bit h higher for your skill level. So yeah, that like the idea is that you're doing well, you're performing well in both instances, but one feels feels effortful and one doesn't. Um, and so like the the best way for I think for people to think about it is more that like your state of mind, which is not just what like you're thinking, but also like all of your physiology, how your muscles are moving, is like we tend to separate like the physical and the mental a bit too much, right? But it's all interconnected. And so if if we just think about the sort of the state of being that you're in, um, as on the one end of the scale, you have choke, which is another sport psychology term, which is kind of like worse than being distracted. It's like the best example I can give is like say you were like on a first date with someone that you were like really into, and you had to do something, and all of a sudden you felt very, very watched, and then you're like, I don't know if you ever like had someone watch you tie your knot, like, but like really scrutinize it, and then you're like, hang on a minute, how do I even do this? It's like it's because basically what you're doing is you're taking this thing that you can do on a completely subconscious level that you don't need to think through. And then basically you're the two systems are like implicit and explicit. I don't know if you know about this, but like it's like the explicit system is like when you have to like really think things through like a beginner, and then the implicit system is like you just do it on an implicit, like a subconscious, implicit level. And like if you're a high-level climber, like most of your climbing will be happening on that level. It's not ever efficient to be like, and then I need to move my hand just like this, and then do the you know, in the moment, it's like you know, your body's just kind of like responding to to the challenge of climbing on a subconscious level. Sometimes like cues can be helpful, as we know, with like beta and stuff, but like, or it would be kind of like if you go trail running and then like trying to plan where you step your feet, it's like You wouldn't do that right. It's like your body just needs to respond. So choking is like is worse than being distracted because you switch into that explicit system. You're kind of like just like overthinking or whatever. Then you've got like distraction. And then in the middle, I say you've got like presence and focus where you're like climbing well and you're like somewhat focused on the tasks at hand, but you're not fully absorbed like you are with flow and clutch. So like when I talk to people about this and they're sort of asking me, okay, like, well, how could I try harder or how could I be more focused when I climb? Or how can I kind of like perform better without just focusing on physical training? It's kind of like asking yourself, where are you usually at on that scale? And then what does it look like for you to have more of your performances be somewhere further along that scale, whether that's flow or clutch? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yes, it does. Um and I'm just curious though, how how does someone, what are some examples if someone has more left on the table for try hard? Or how do how are these people identifying the recognition that they think that they aren't trying hard? Like because it's so subjective, right? Like it's hard to know. If you look at someone, you can't tell if someone is trying their best or not. So what are some examples or some indications that perhaps one isn't trying as hard as they could be?

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah. I don't know. I guess it depends like your experience level a bit, you know. I think that once you get to a reasonably high level and you've you've climbed enough, you probably will have some experiences that feel like they're somewhat at your ceiling, you know. It's like I I was off and then I like brought it back, you know. It's like I was falling and then I clawed my way back onto that hold, you know, or like the balance point. I just lost that balance point, and then you know, and I think if you're a high enough level climber, you can be in your body enough to kind of know what's going on there. Um, I think it's harder for kind of newer and more intermediate climbers who yeah, just have less experience and just have less of a connection to like that full range of experiences. But that said, you know, I do think that you get some really high-level climbers who have a tendency to kind of really need to be in control. So they are leaving something on the table there because they're not letting their bodies get to more extreme places. And it might be, you know, like yeah, how do you how do you find that out? I guess like observing other climbers and observing that like that they look like they're kind of trying harder than you, like that if you've never like let out a power scream. I'm not saying that power screams always like an indication that you're trying hard enough ore ever, but like, yeah, it might it might just be from observing other climbers. And then the other thing is like also through through a coach, you know, that's really what a good good coach could do is go, okay, hang on a minute. Like, is that your 100%? And then I think the other thing you could do if you if you wanted to really like look in this is also, are you someone who knows what like 100% physical exertion feels like in a training context? So, like, say some people like will push to the max doing a bench press or something, but then won't in climbing. So that can be an interesting comparison as well.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

It's funny when I yell while climbing, I never do it consciously and I'll hear myself yell and I'll say, Oh, you were just trying really hard. Like that is an indicator for me that I really put it out. And something that you were saying about kind of the differences between maybe a higher level climber having that connection with their body to really understand what it was like to fully put out. I I I think that that's actually a good example of why trying hard is so important is that you kind of build it up. And when people do limit climbing, and the better, higher trained you are, I think that the people who are climbing the hardest climbs in the world are digging even deeper. It's it's it's not just as easy for them to climb V17 as it was when they climbed V7. It's not the same output. It's like they have even more capacity and they can dig even deeper. And so I do think it's a skill you need to build up time and time and time again because climbing harder is literally harder. Like you actually have to try harder, even with that a physical ability underneath.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yeah, yeah, I I you could be right. Yeah. I I know that I've got better at it over time for sure, but I also really enjoy it. Um, and I think a lot of good climbers do enjoy trying hard. Um, and that's what's maybe enabled them to be good, right? Because they're just operating near their net max more just naturally without needing like that extra willpower to get them there.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

I mean, I think that climbing your hardest, it's uh it's I want to say it's more fulfilling than sending. Maybe sending while trying your hardest is the most fulfilling, but I have a number of times where I have literally put it all out there. I just I dug so deep and I had nothing left and I didn't send, but I didn't come away feeling bad or like something should have been different because I really knew I had put it all out there and there was just nothing left left to do. You said, Well, that wasn't my time, that wasn't my day. You know, there's nothing to really complain about.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Yeah, for sure. I think it is it is satisfying. I guess it kind of you don't have the shoulda woulda coulda so much when you know you've put it all out there, right? Because you know that just I guess you're more able to accept things because that's the reality of of what the challenge was for you at that moment. I wouldn't say that that's like uh universal though. I think that depending on the mindset you have, I've definitely seen people try their really hardest and also still be bummed when they don't send, which is another conversation.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Yeah, I mean I definitely I can tell you like I have three climbs, maybe four climbs in my head that I really wish I had done. I guess I just don't have a uh I'm bummed, but I guess I just don't have uh as much self-critical talk about it because you know there's just nothing left to do. And so, you know, if your goal is to win the Olympics, you know, you even if you try really hard, you may still be bummed if you didn't win the Olympics, but at least it's one thing that you can not beat yourself up about. And I guess my my my question on this though is how do you help people learn how to try really hard? Like what are the barriers for people if they decide that they have more left in the tank or they're talking to their coach and and seeing that you know they're only going 95% and a muerte is a muerte is not even 100%, it's uh it's uh at least 101%. Uh, you know, what are what are the tools or tricks that you help people with to let them access that?

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Uh yeah, so I mean, I think the the main thing is just like ruling out the obvious barriers. Um, you know, like fear of falling is like the biggest one for sure. And I think that that even affects high-level climbers um and just in different ways in different scenarios. It's like fear of falling might not be this thing that like prevents you from doing the move or prevents you from trying a climb or prevents you even from taking a fall somewhat comfortably, but it might prevent you from um just digging that bit deeper, just in these subtle ways, you know, like it's emboldering too, right? It's like maybe that was your time to send that boulder problem because your skin was good and the conditions were good, but you didn't really want to commit, you weren't 100%, so you dropped off, and then the next go you were tired, and maybe you don't even pick up on that as being a limiter for you. Um, but in that it it when you add up those small things over the course of like a 20-year climbing career, those things matter, right? So um, yeah, fear of falling or just like maybe not even fear of falling, but just like some kind of stress or anxiety or negativity around what might happen when you fall in sport bouldering or Chad can be a barrier. Like I think people just with a little bit of background fear of falling are just more likely to say take. And whether that's on the send or not, even if it's not on the send, again, it's just another opportunity that they missed not trying hard, if that makes sense. So it's just like a lot it's just less training, even if on the send you wouldn't have said take, if that makes sense. And then, like, weirdly, fear of failure actually, I think, can be a huge barrier to trying hard. Um, because on the face of it, you're like, well, if you're scared to fail, then surely you just dig even deeper, right? Because you've got like more motivation to stay on the wall. But I think what tends to happen with people who've got a bit of fear of failure or a bit of fear of what other people think is that they don't dig deep unless they know they could send, because they're like, well, what's the point? You know, when you're kind of and maybe it's you know, the best language is maybe not for a failure. It's more just like people who are too outcome focused. So people who are like, I'm only here to send, and if I'm not gonna send, then the rest of my climbing time is not super valuable. Then they're the people who are more likely to say take, they're more likely to not dig deep, they're more likely to wait for conditions, to wait for everything to be perfect and aligned. Um, and again, it's like that might not be the make or break on a particular day, but when you all these little decisions as climbers compound. And I think that that's that's something that we probably don't talk enough about in high-level climbing, is like those those micro decisions are what makes someone good or great, I think. Um, and it's what you know makes a yanya, a yanya or an adamandra, an adamandra. It's not these these these big things necessarily, but it's like how they they show up all the time. Yeah, they're the two biggies, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Yeah, this really stood out to me in your video, this idea that if you're in practice or training, you need to always be trying hard. And it made me think of what I I did a episode with Alamantra, and we talked about execution or something. He he may almost sound like oh, you know, if conditions were right and he was physically strong enough, then he would just execute. And I was like, wow, that's a big assumption. You know, how do you execute on that moment? And his point was something along the lines of what you said, where it's not about rising to the occasion at that moment, it's about how he executes and does his best even when he's on the campus board, just uh on every little moment he's trying to have the best movement he can and try hard in every opportunity. And there's some quote that's something like we we don't rise to the level of the moment we fall to the level of our training or something like that. Have you ever heard that one?

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Yeah, is that it that's in the habits book, isn't it? That's in uh is it Adam Grant? Is that his I don't know. We don't ride it's also like we don't we I think his quote is we don't rise to the level of our goals, we fall to the level of our systems.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

So it's like but it's a similar idea, right? It's that if the process isn't there, you know, the goals are kind of accidental when every decision you make is a good decision as a climber, right? If you're if you're like kind of like primed for all of these things, the goals aren't accidental, but like they follow naturally from the processes that underlie them. And yeah, it's it's hard to get all of them right.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Yeah, I find these uh all related where there's like a fear of falling, a fear of failure. It all feels somewhat outcome-based versus just be able to lock into the moment. And when I get scared, like so I have like massive fear of falling on sport climbing. When I boulder a bunch, I go and I sport climb, and I know it's not dangerous. Like I'm I know, but the truth is is I get scared. I haven't done it in a year or something, and I just I don't know, I don't know what to say. I'm just telling the truth. Uh and my kind of completely normal.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Like, you know, that's my experience too. I just know what to do about it.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

You know, so uh my uh trick that I have when I get scared and I know it's safe, or you know, it's like maybe I've even taken the fall, is I really, really focus on beta. I just I say, okay, I know I need to put my foot here, I know I need to drop me here because I just feel like there's not room in my head to be afraid and to focus on this thing, you know, that I'm doing in front of me. But also is LinkedIn to when I think about other people watching me or if I hear people talking, like I have this pet peeve. It's one of the reasons why I like sport climbing over bouldering, is sometimes when you're bouldering, people on the ground will start talking about baseball or something. You're like, what? Like I'm and it can pull you out of that moment. And so I I guess I I find it all connected in that it it's just not being there with the move, with the climbing. And you're worried about sending, you're worried about what people think of you, worried about how you look. And I don't think I still reliably 30 plus years now can block out that stuff and be in that moment each time.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Well, I mean, you just told me that you can block out fair falling and be in the moment.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

That's like not everyone can do that. One out of ten times, yeah. Oh, right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, with fair falling, I think um, yeah. I mean, it's cool if you can you can just say to yourself, focus on the move. I think that's a great skill to be able to kind of go, okay, well, here's all the things that could be distracting me, but I can just focus on the move anyway. Um, that's really like the position you want to be in. It's not the position that everyone's in all the time, and that you actually have to work on the distractions themselves. So, like Fear of Falling, for example, you know, a lot of a lot of the work I do is helping people work on that because they can't just go, okay, I'm gonna focus on the move instead. It also, you know, you think about these states. Another way to think about them is like there's an optimal level of stress would help you access those states. And like too little, you feel drowsy, lethargic, whatever, too much, you're too anxious, you're like shaky, or there's just too much cortisol in the body to be climbing well. Um, and sometimes just like fear of failure or fear of falling or something can just get you out of that optimal stress zone, and then you kind of need to be like, okay, well, why is this thing so distracting for me? And try and work on it.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Quick break while I tell you about today's sponsor. Thank you to all the patrons who helped make this show possible. Join them so you can get episodes early before anyone else. And those episodes are ad-free. As a patron, you also get to submit questions for upcoming guests. The answers to those questions are only available to patrons. Follow the link in the show notes to join now. You also get access to a private Discord where you'll find me and other people who want to go from good to great. Okay, back to the pod. I think one of the things that is so tricky about climbing is that you don't always have control over all those factors. And you know, you sometimes you have to dig deep or or just deal with what's happening in the moment. And I was uh I had this uh peak climbing experience in Mallorca not that long ago, and I was, I don't know if it doesn't count as a on-site because I was doing or a flash because I had like done the easy intro part, but I was high up and then I didn't know I was doing, and my my sequence got mixed up, and I was right at the top of Diablo Wall, uh, which is high up there, and the surf was big, and I was definitely like way outside my core, or you know, that range of like flow. Uh in fact, it kind of went from flow to clutch, and I kind of like lost it for a moment. I was like, oh my God. And then you know, you're thrust into this position, and you can't necessarily say, hey, like this is too much for me, and you have to deal with it. And you know, those are the moments that it's what makes climbing special because you're subject to the outdoors, you're subject to the pressure of a trip ending, you're subject to weather, and you know, like balancing all this and then breaking through or making it happen, uh, especially in those clutch states versus just a flow state, is I think some of the most rewarding moments we can have, like in in life, not just climbing.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah, yeah, I think so as well. I mean, I think all sports are like that to some degree. I think sometimes we can think that climbing is this really unique special sport, but then if you think about how much more dynamic something like surfing or skiing can be, where the terrain is actually moving or could or could move, then you're kind of like, hmm, we should probably be more prepared for climbing, you know. You're like, you could see Diablo, you knew how high it was, like you knew what the sea looked like. It's not like a rock broke or anything. But yeah, I mean it's it's it is uh it's a uniquely scary sport. I mean, a DWS is especially scary, I think.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

I actually like it especially because I feel like it's really scary, but not unbelievably dangerous. Like there's this uh I in fact, some of the stuff that I really enjoy in climbing and why I think all this talk even is relevant for someone who is new, or you know, I just said I get terrified going out sport climbing in an objectively safe situation, but I I am scared and I still have to confront myself and and deal with it. And I feel like a lot of deep water soloing feels more dangerous than it truly is, and that is uh a joy in the sense that you get to you get to work on the mental side of things without really putting your life necessarily. I mean, well, it is dangerous, but it's not it's maybe not quite as dangerous as it feels, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Yeah, totally. And it it can it can feel like really scary, like just even just a meter off the water.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

Like it does, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Like until you kind of fall in enough or like jump in and just like especially if you're a bit weird with water, which I'm not, but some people are like we just did some coaching in Mallorca with um a group of people, and some people already like a bit scared of the water in general, right? And um, yeah, it's really scary. And yeah, I think you're right, like feeling that kind of just that like on edge, like wild raw, like it kind of experience, I think is something that's really cool about the different some some of the different modes of climbing. And like if someone's listening to that, to this as like maybe a predominantly indoor climber, like I would encourage you to kind of try some of those different modes of climbing because yeah, it does get to an experience that I think is harder to come by in the modern world for sure.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

On that note of really trying hard, and I I'm gonna you know point more towards this clutch state description that we had because flow state still feels ephemeral and difficult to access, but I feel like clutch is something you can fall back on a little bit more readily. It seems a little bit more under our power. Maybe I'm wrong there, but uh this idea of trying hard, I I want to pick on that a little bit more because it's a little too blanket. Like I know in higher level climbing, trying hard does not always just mean pulling harder. Like it's it's uh climbing is complex. Climbing is not just like, can I do one more pull-up? Like that's that's not really what gets you up uh a route. And so can we can you talk more about what trying hard really means?

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Yeah, for sure. I think trying hard, yeah. I think clutch is kind of like you know, better describes what we're kind of interested in here, I guess. Like, because like you said, like you don't want to get on your warm-up and just have to try and want to be trying really hard, right? You only want to try hard when it it's optimal to try hard, when when the challenge is like requires that of you. So I kind of like to think of it as like it's not just physical exertion, but it's like when all of your like bodily re- and mental and physical resources are like oriented in an optimal way towards the task. I think that's kind of the best way to think about it. So it's not like 10% of your brain was like doing some background stuff or whatever, you know. It's like, no, like once we understand mind and body better and they could do some sort of scan of what's going on in you, they'll be like, oh yeah, like all of the little muscles in in the bits of your body that aren't even really that necessary for the movement that you're doing, they were also like online and helping you, and you were eking out those like little bits of of energy and resources and brain power to get you up this piece of rock, right? And if you think about it just like from an evolutionary perspective or something, like it's likely that we're just not usually functioning on that kind of level because. We don't want to be always functioning on that level because we just be knackered the whole time, right? So we've probably got some kind of ceiling that our mind and body are using there. Um, and we're like asking ourselves to kind of like raise that ceiling. And then like the next question, I think obviously that comes from that is like, okay, but then you're exposing yourself more to injuries, and so then it's like how to try harder, why it's a question.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

Yeah, yeah. Um, and it's like one of the main questions on the YouTube video that we put out there as well. And we did think about maybe including that in a video, but as you know, with YouTube, it's like if it goes over 20 minutes, or like, you know, it's just there's so many things we could have included in that video, and I I kind of felt like this it wasn't like the most interesting part. But I think the main thing is like on the one hand, you do need to train hard, but you also don't want to be putting yourself in these extreme positions all the time, and when you do, you really need to be aware that you did that and you need to rest accordingly. And I've like definitely fallen into the trap previously of like having my mind push my body beyond what it's really physically capable of in like a bit of a chronic way, and now like I'm a wiser climber, I am more aware when I'm doing that, and I also have worked with people who are much smarter than me with regard to all the physical stuff who are helping me get that training stimulus right so that I can try really hard when I need to on my various projects, but also not get injured, like to be to be ready for that, to kind of know what my body can and can't do, and to not get in like a fatigue hole as well, um, because you're kind of showing up every day and you're going to fail. Like, I don't I don't advocate for like going to failure all the time. You know, we need to be operating at these like lower, like meet middle, max, you know, if you if you've got effort scale naught to 10, we can't just be trying 10 all the time. So yeah, I think you've got to think about this from lots of different angles, and the physical piece there is really important.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Yeah, it's it's definitely good to prepare yourself for level 10 exertion. But I will say that when you really are pushing your limits, there's always going to be a little bit of risk involved. You know, it's I I hate to say it, I wish it wasn't like that, but I have hurt myself trying too hard. And uh yeah, I don't know. I I don't love that topic because it it literally hurts when I say it. Like somehow my shoulder kind of hurts as we talk about that. But one thing that I wanted to ask a little bit more on was when you're trying hard and how that shows up. I I think I've always been more of a uh like a stronger climber, not as technical as I'd like to be. I at least I know this about myself. It just is what it is. Um and there's other people on the other end of the spectrum. And sometimes when I tell myself to try really hard, like let's say I'm on a route and I'm really, really pumped, and there's you know a hold up there, and I should use a bump hold, I should get my feet up, and I know that's the beta, but I have this like thing in me that's like, I want to try hard by just going for it. And the really loud thing in my brain is like, just go for it, just go for it, you're pumped. But then there's like often this quiet voice that's like, you need to put the foot right, you need to like take the little micro steps. And it's funny because for me, as I've gotten better at trying hard, what trying hard has meant to me is almost listening to that quiet voice instead of everything yelling at me like, just jump, like just huck for it or something. And and it's just fascinating how, yeah, what trying hard means is not, again, it's not necessarily just like let's do another pull-up or like let's pull even harder, you know?

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Yeah, totally. I think I think that's great. You know, it's like that's some part of your attentional resources realizing that the optimal way isn't the way that maybe feels most comfortable for you in that moment or something, right? And maybe when you were like, if you were a bit more distracted or you were a bit not quite in that clutch or flow state, it's it's then when you could maybe panic and and and go for something, and that maybe that wasn't the most optimal way of doing it. But also, maybe in some cases it is too. It's I don't think it's always the case that that technical way is the best way, yeah. Especially because, and you know, I think something that I'm realizing as I get older as a climber is like I think sometimes we can like compare ourselves to other climbers and be like, well, if they did it this way and they made it look easy, then that's the best way. Um, but they're just different climbers in different bodies, and what's the way for them is not necessarily the way for you, and that like you know, compare myself to my husband who's like very fast twitch, very powerful, and like he compares himself to me, and it just doesn't really make sense. Like, the most efficient way for him to climb a route is always going to be about doing it in half the speed that I did it in, you know. But it's stupid for me to try to get to that point, you know, or to go like, well, Adamandra climbs fast, so therefore I should climb faster. It's like, no, my body doesn't have those same energy systems, so yeah, trying trying hard is um, yeah, there's a lot more to it than meets the eye. I think one thing I was gonna say that was a bit more related to what you said before was what just with the injury thing again, is I also think that it's kind of just like any sort of stimulus, right? It's like we get resilient at trying hard through trying hard in a graduated way. We don't get resilient at that, at those more extreme states of physical exertion through never being in those extreme states. And and I think that that's something we miss a little bit when we train too much off the wall. It's like the bicep curls are not really going to be giving you that kind of resilience when you come to do like a crazy undercling move where the your wrist is all talked back and your shoulders in a weird position and you're reaching all up high into some roof and your foot's all you know, do you know what I mean? Like we get ourselves into really weird positions as climbers and we can get injured in them. I think when A, we don't try hard in climb situations, we only try hard in these like really like bounded trade off-the-wall training environments, and then we're surprised. Whereas like if we just gradually through the course of our climbing lives, like exposed ourselves to like these more extreme body positions, and then when you think about it, you're like, okay, well, it makes sense also that this trying hard from a mental capacity is also probably developing alongside that physical capacity too, because we don't want to try hard mentally before our bodies are ready. So we also kind of just need to have some of that awareness to be like, okay, I'm getting into this extreme body position, but I trust my body.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

Yeah, it's it's why you have to be careful when this is a you know a crux move or a boulder that is maybe iconic because of some awkward position. Like there's a I always blank on the name. It's like gentlemen jack or skeleton key. There's some V11 in Joe's Valley where it's a gasto cling, you know, like a really heinous shoulder move, and it really revolves around, you know, it's like a V11 under, you know, gasto cling. And maybe don't expose yourself to a gasto cling the first time on something at your limit, and then try and go a muerte on it. Like that, you know, is maybe not the place to, you know, you need to make sure everything is all in line when you really push your limits. But it's something that really has bummed me out when I first started getting injured was it was hard mentally to not be able to just try my hardest. Like that was one of the things that really just felt bad, like coming back and being like, I want to just try with the reckless abandon of a 15-year-old, you know?

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Totally. Yeah, no, and I've been injured a lot in my climbing, and that I think is the one the biggest bummer about injuries. It's like people are like, just go do easy stuff, like just enjoy the movement. And it's like, I don't know if I would even climb if I couldn't try hard as a climber. Like it just wouldn't tick the same boxes for me. It just wouldn't be the same activity. I'd probably rather try hard in some other activity than not try hard in climbing.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

I agree. Something that I've learned about coming back from injuries and wanting to have that try hard is that it's part of learning what climbing well and trying hard is about, where it's not like you don't put yourself into a really awkward position that feels tweaky. Like if it feels injurious, it's because it is injurious and trying harder in that situation is not actually trying harder, it's that quiet voice again inside of me that's like, maybe I need to make this different. Uh so you know, again, it's like really understanding what trying hard means and in that moment is nuanced and not totally straightforward.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

Totally, yeah. And that's why I think you know, just just experience, isn't it? It's like maybe if you're a newer climber, maybe trying 100% isn't the best idea in a lot of climbing scenarios, right? Maybe if it's this basic movement style and you don't think you're gonna get injured, you're just like hooking between jugs or something, then yeah, but yeah, I think that there that there are just certain things that come with experience, and I think unlocking that full potential is one of them.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Well, and again, I think this is where it's that that practice of it in every moment. And when I look back on my you know career as an athlete, I I really the first thing I did at any kind of higher level competitiveness was gymnastics, and I had a coach, and they would say, Hey, like you need to keep your feet together while doing your twist or something or your backflip, right? Like, and I would think to myself, like, I am trying that, like, I don't even know how to connect my mind to my body in that moment, and then just through repetition of literally just trying it, trying to do what my coach is saying. I feel like it that is that development of that connection with your body and that that you know forcefulness in your intention to uh try to make that work. And I think it applies to something like keeping your feet on. You know, it's like, okay, you're doing this move, try it, keep your foot on, like really, really try it. You know, it may feel impossible, but of course it feels impossible the first time. And and you know, like yeah, so you know, it can narrow into every moment.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Totally. And like I think if you just if you dig into any of like what we know about neurological learning, it's like we learn through trial and error. Like, if you want to learn how to get a basketball in a net, you keep throwing. And every time you miss, your brain is making these little like corrections that you aren't aware of. That's the thing. I think a lot of the time we think that we are like more aware of what's happening as we learn in climbing. It's like when we learn the beta of a climb, we think that there are some things, again, it's this explicit, implicit system, there are some things we can explicitly point to, like, oh, I shifted my hips a little bit to the right. But a lot of the little microadists that are happening are underneath our conscious perception. So it's like if we're not getting our bodies to the point where we are not failing, or at least it doesn't feel right, or it doesn't feel as good as it could do, our brain can't be making those like adjustments right that are required for that feedback for the neurological learning to happen. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 56:11

Definitely. Uh yeah, I I just think that some uh something that people miss out on sometime is that intention. Like if you practice a move, that really helps. But if you are say, just because I just use that as an example, that you really try to keep your foot on. Because if you imagine, like, imagine you're like practicing throwing a basketball, but you're just kind of practicing it versus looking at the net and telling everything inside of yourself, I want the ball to go in that net. Not just I want to throw it over there, but that's your focus.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

And I I I think that's like underrated.

SPEAKER_01 56:47

You have to be focused. You have to be focused when when you're sending, but you need to be focused when you're training too. And and and that's that comes back to those state scales, right? It's like if you're operating in that distracted end of the state scale, you will be you'll find it hard to send, but you also just won't be developing and progressing as a climber in the same way as you would if you if you were showing up focused at your training sessions every day.

SPEAKER_00 57:13

Well, and let's tie this into something else that you brought up earlier, too, is you know, fear of failure, fear of other people watching, uh or maybe I say that wrong, but just you know how you look, um, you know, that distraction takes away from that focus. And how do you help people who are so caught up in you know the fear of failure or what other people are thinking that they can't have that focus or intention? Because like I was saying earlier, it's hard to focus on two things at once.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Yeah, I mean, I think we've all got it to some degree, you know. I think that on some level we are, well, on almost every level, we're social creatures, right? We're completely socially primed, like all of our psychology is it has not developed in a vacuum. It's it's developed in this social system that we're in. And I think that we really underrate how socially wired we are, and even something like like climbing, where you can be like, well, I'm not a professional climber, and no one cares what great I climb, and uh, you know, it's just for fun, and you know, we tell ourselves these things, but the reality is that probably within your peer group there is some kind of social hierarchy, or like at least some kind of like implicit social reward system going on, where like the harder you climb, like the more credit you feel that you have, and even just on on a level where we know this just doesn't make sense and that people don't value us for how hard we climb, they value it for us for our friendship and all the rest of it. On some level, that is what our psychology believes and and orients around, right? So that's why failure hurts, that's why we want to send a lot of the time. Uh you know, we can tell ourselves it's just for our own satisfaction. And maybe for some people that's true more than others, but I do think we're lying to ourselves if we think that we are not swayed by these kinds of social forces, and that's not just in climbing, but in everything we do, right? Like if everyone turned around and they were like, Hey Josh, your podcast sucks, you know, you're gonna feel that, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:26

Or like delete those comments, just kidding.

SPEAKER_01 59:30

Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, so yeah, so that's gonna that's just gonna show up in our lives, it's gonna show up in our climbing, and I think that it's like what we do with that and it's the extent to which it affects us. And I think for some people, um, you know, a lot of their identity is tied up in climbing, especially high-level climbers. And I also think on some level it's like uh it could just be as simple as like, well, I've spent 10 years trying really, really hard at this sport, and I haven't progressed, like, you know, I haven't climbed a new grades in the last two years. What does that say about me as a person? You know, so it's not necessarily just okay, these people are at the crag, they're watching me, what do they think? It's also like it's it's it's complex, I guess. You know, it's like a lot of this stuff is mixed up with how it with how we see ourselves, our sense of self-worth, you know, how we how we think of our identity, um how we compare ourselves to others, that kind of thing. Um, so to answer your question, it's like there's not really kind of like an easy answer, you know. It's for everyone this could show up differently. I think for a lot of climbers, the way it usually kind of manifests itself is that it can push a climber to just be a bit too much focused on the outcome, maybe get a bit negative, a bit anxious around these like external metrics of success, like sending grades, that kind of thing, because they're the things we can measure socially, right? And then maybe losing sight a little bit of like why they even love climbing in the first place. You know, it's like you probably didn't want to climb your first AA because you could just tick that box. You probably wanted to climb that AA because of like the things that underlie that process, like how it feels to climb that hard, you know, how it how it feels to sort of set your mind to something and go through that process and achieve it, like how it feels to kind of um master rock climbing to that kind of level. These are probably the reasons why you set it as a goal, but then somehow you lose sight of that and it becomes more the like, well, this person did it and I can't for some reason. What does that say about me? Or like I just feel a bit shitty about myself right now, and I think I'd feel better about myself if I sent this route. You know, it's like you kind of need it to like not feel a bit lame somehow. And you know, I'm hoping this ring bell, I hope I'm describing this in ways that like kind of rings bells because I think this is just really, really human. And I think it's kind of a shame that we tend to kind of like gloss over this like more shadow side of our psychology because from what I can tell, it's pretty like universal, but you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:17

No, I'm pretty sure each of those things resonates with everyone at one point or another. Uh, but when you get into those mental states where you are, you know, thinking to yourself, I need to send this because uh I'm a professional and I need to like add to my resume, or I told people I was gonna do this, or I should be able to do this because it's X grade, not you know, it shouldn't even be that hard for me. What is your in your toolbox for bringing yourself to the moment and making it about that moment having fun, or or maybe that's the wrong way to look at it? How do you deal with those moments?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it depends a little bit on the circumstance, but I'll list off a few things that I do. So, one one of the things that I do, especially with hard climbs, is I remind myself that I chose a hard climb because it's hard. So, like, you know, when I want it to feel easy, which we've all been there with a project, you're like, I wish this knee bar was just a little bit better. And then it's like, no, I chose this climb because it's hard. Or like, why have I not sent yet? Or like, you know, those kinds of thoughts. It's like constantly bringing back to the fact that you're in this for the challenge. So, like, why resist it when the challenge is challenging? So, like, that's like one of my go-tos. As soon as I do that, I'm like, okay, it brings me back into the like, why am I here? What's my core reason? What's my big why? And then, like, lead leading on from that, it's like reminding myself what what I love about the sport is not the moment. Like, it is like when we have a project, it's like we wish for this moment when we clip the chains or we send tick the boulder or whatever. And it's like, okay, that's a fun moment, but for how long does that even last? We just pick another goal. That's not why we're here. Um, so like reminding just like yourself of just the bigger picture, I suppose. And then I like will sometimes do like a more pointed gratitude thing where, like, you know, I'll just remind myself that I'm super grateful to have climbing. If I'm on a project and I'm able to try hard, I'll remind myself like that's a privilege. Not everyone has that. In my life, I've not always had that. I've been injured where it's it's sucked because I've not been able to try hard. So coming back to the like, this is exactly where I want to be. I don't want to be anywhere else. So, yeah, a lot of acceptance, a lot of gratitude. And then if it's kind of like deeper stuff around like, you know, maybe like I've had climbs before where I've like started to kind of feel like I don't feel that good about myself. Usually it's because there's something else going on in my life. Like um, you know, I've lost conf confidence for some other reason. You know, maybe something else has happened, you know, like a breakup or something. So then it's more about going, okay, well, let's just be kind to myself. I'm going through a hard time right now. You think that climbing this thing is gonna make you feel better, but you're just kind of grasping, you know, and actually you're just having a hard time. And if you send, you'll probably still be having a hard time, and and and this is the process and this is what it looks like. And then what else? Yeah, I don't know. I guess there's a few things.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:33

That was for good, Hazel. I was I was gonna be impressed if there was something else. I I love the you it's hard and you chose it because it's hard. It's it's such a funny thing where I I mean, I guess not everyone does climb like that. I would say that I do know people who seem to only look for things that will be easy for them. And uh, you know, to to me that probably misses some of the point of climbing and probably puts a lot of. Lower ceiling on both their long-term success and their enjoyment because it really feels good to succeed at something you know, like you talked about magic line, and you weren't sure you were going to be able to do it. Like that was the point. You know, you you embrace the uncertainty and uh, you know, that whole like it's the journey, not the outcome, but kind of is because whenever you climb something, oh, I've had some climbs I really wanted to climb, and then I did them, and my, you know, my life did not change at all, except for that now I had a new climb I really wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:34

Yeah, you just move the goalposts, right? And when you're in it, you think that that goal. The other thing is like when you've climbed for a long time, you realize that the goals that you thought were really, really big goals are just they're only stepping stones. Each goal forces you to be a slightly better climber, and that's why goals are really useful, right? They like direct your attention, they direct your learning, they focus your attention in a way that you wouldn't have if you hadn't set that goal. That's the true value of a goal. Like, I guess like what this comes back to is like what I call like a mastery mindset, which could be something that your listeners might resonate with, where it's like you can have hobbies, but the difference between a like a high-level climber in my mind and uh and kind of just like a hobby climber, an amateur climber is like how you think about climbing in terms of mastery. It's like, are you here to master the sport and what everything that comes with that? And you know, when you define the sport, it's okay if that just looks like indoor climbing. You know, you define climbing how you want, but what however you define climbing, are you here to master it or are you here to kind of like be good for a short time and then just check out? You know, and I think the level to which you are dedicated to mastery will kind of be the thing that defines how good a climber you are, like for the body you're in, for sure, like as we were all in different bodies and we we have slightly different starting places and stuff. It's not that like you know, it's all just like this even playing field or anything, but the whole point of mastery is that it is your journey and these goals help develop your mastery of the sport. It's kind of like if you're a chef, like if you're a master chef and you dedicate it to making food your whole life, it's like you want to go and learn from the people in Korea about how they do cooking, right? So that you can kind of like hone your craft a bit more. I mean, I don't know about cooking or anything, right? But but some chefs do it as a job because they're okay at it and they kind of like it. And then there's master chefs who want to eat up everything about, sorry for the pun, but you know, about cooking and food and stuff, right? And I think that coming back to that sense of mastery of being like, okay, well, this is a goal, it feels important now, but really it's here to help me grow as a climber.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:00

So is that another tool you can use when you start spiraling is kind of to check back in with that motivation that, you know, hey, I should be able to do this climb. It's supposed to be easy, is also that like I'm here to climb as best as I can to understand climbing in in my own way, in my own body, and to the best of my abilities. Because I think you wrote something about that to me, just this idea of tapping back into your why, into your motivation, uh, is a is another good tool for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:33

Totally, yeah, yeah. Reminding you yourself of your deeper motivations, or like how I would put it, it's like your big why. Why are you here? Why do you love climbing? You know, and you could list on a simple level, you just list a few things. It's like, because I love hard movement, I love being outside in nature, I love challenging myself. And it's like, well, if you can go tick, tick-tick, then why are you bummed that you can't send? Right? It's like if if you're kind of fulfilling those things, then what's left is probably your ego. And I think that the one, the one response to that is to be like, oh fuck, I've got this big ego, I'm a bad person, or I'm like a weak person mentally. But I think the next response should be, yeah, that's fine. I'm human. We all do. This is normal. Let's be kind to myself about it. And I think that's kind of the piece that some of the sort of conversations we have around psychology miss. It's like, you know, if you're in it for the like all the love of climbing and like all of what you call intrinsic motivation, like you're motivated by all of these like kind of like pure motivators, and then when the ego shows up, it's like this bad thing. Um, and I think I probably used to think that a little bit, you know, and I used to be like, oh yeah, I don't love this part of myself. And then I realized that just, you know, unless you're gonna be like the butter or something, it's just that's just how we roll, and it's you know, it's kind of normal. And then I think that the main the main thing for me is like, are you self-aware enough to know when your ego's showing up and like how to redirect or how to accept that as part of the challenge, too? You know, and I think that's what's really cool about picking these really hard climbing goals is that you end up shining a mirror on some of these bits of yourself that don't always come to the surface. And then it's like, okay, well, what am I gonna do with that? How am I gonna deal with it? This goal's gonna force me to deal with this because I don't think I can send this hard if my ego's online.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:36

I love that idea of all this being uh a kind of a portal or a way to have some introspection and and having that even chance to be self-ware because I I would meet climbers who really did seem to have this like total amazing intrinsic motivation. They could always climb hard, whether it was in their basement by themselves, or it just it seemed like they always had it. And I would often have to set up these circumstances where I'd be around my friends and see my friends pushing themselves, and there was some, you know, friendly competition there. And I used to feel kind of like guilty that I didn't have that, like, I'm just gonna go into my dungeon and just like I'm so self-motivated. But the truth is, is that we're a myriad of experiences, and it's not, I'm not saying I should always have to have some competition to access certain sides of me, but to deny that would be a mistake too, and to not, you know, embrace sometimes you are just pure soul climbing and it's great, and sometimes there's some competition and it's a whole gamut of experiences that we have, and that's the opportunity, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:44

Yeah, it's interesting that you think that like being with others in that way is like not soul climbing because you could also just say that in a different way, and you could just say you need the energy of a group.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:54

Oh, I like that better, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:55

Yeah, just say that you you're you know, you feed off that energy, and that and and I I personally love bouldering for that reason. It's one of the the things I I love so much about going out with a group of people is that you can almost get into like a group flow where you're like each feeding off each other and you're learning things from watching other people on the rock, and that translates into how you climb next. And like that, if that's not soulful, I don't know what is. I mean, I'm not religious, so totally, totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:24

Uh, but it's interesting because along with that come some issues that I've had where uh you know what you're saying about how you and your husband kind of have different styles of climbing, and I'll see someone do a move and I'll think, oh, I'm going to do I'll I'll mimic that, I'll do the move like they do it. But then that's I've often done better when I just try something on my own and I don't get sucked into their style. And you know, it's just against that self-awareness thing, and it's that being aware of what's going on, what tools you're using, what traps you might get sucked into, and then being able to approach it. And that, you know, to me, that is the whole mental aspect and you know, figuring it out for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:02

Totally. Yeah. I think one of the benefits actually of being like a um, like you know, I'm pretty sure, and then I I would say I have like an unusual set of physical strengths and weaknesses is that I rarely can like copy beta. And I think that sometimes that's annoying um and and maybe limits some learning pathways, but then in other ways it like forces you to be kind of creative, intuitive a bit more, I think, as well. So you because you can't copy people.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:34

Yeah, yeah. It's I mean, that's uh where it's funny because this is I've seen people struggle when they go from indoors to outdoors and they are used to having a foot where they're supposed to be a foot, and then they, you know, can't kind of decide where they want their foot, but it it even extends like I will see someone struggle on a move and it looks hard and they'll get on, and all of a sudden, like the move will feel hard to me, and then maybe I come back the next day and I don't have someone making it look hard in front of me, and I'll find it really easy. And yeah, I got no um answers there. It's just it's just funny. It's just things that you notice about yourself that is not related to your physicality in that moment, it's related to your framing and your perception and how you're telling yourself uh it's going to go. And having the power to both observe that, understand it, and change it is is important. I mean, it's the mental, it's just having a strong mind, Hazel.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:33

Yeah, yeah, strong and flexible. I think one thing that maybe I've not noticed that I think is very helpful with a lot of the things that have come up for us is um staying curious. It's like uh especially with beta and with your own experience and just kind of just leaning in to I wonder what happens if I do this, or yeah, just following kind of that natural curiosity. Like I'm curious about trying this move like this, or I'm curious about that climb. And I think that sometimes some of these like social pressures or mental distractions can kind of prevent that natural curiosity from bubbling up, but I just think it's such a powerful force in climbing.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:16

Well, I feel that is that whole tapping into why you started climbing in the first place. You know, I'm I'm sure a lot of us long-term climbers, we started by climbing uh on the couches in our living room, the trees in our backyard, and just this kind of like I think climbing is special because I really do think there's something so deep in us about just kind of climbing on things. And then, you know, it morphs into rock climbing for us. But you know, letting yourself have that joy and playfulness and openness, I think really is probably a good way to have that portal away from social pressure and fear of failure and back into just those true roots of why we love what we do.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:58

Totally, yeah. And I think if someone's listening and they're like, hmm, I don't know if I last like followed my curiosity in that way, or I don't can't remember the last time I felt truly playful. I think that can be like a warning sign that some of those things are a bit more present than you may have thought.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:15

Okay, well, Hazel, but I'm gonna ask you my my classic question that I ask every high-level climber, and that's uh, how do you go from good to great?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:24

Yeah, I mean, I think you know, the the boring answer, I don't know if everyone answers this, but the boring answers is the the answer's different for everyone, right? You know, there's just not one thing, you know, for one climber, it could be unlocking some physical part of the climbing. For an for another climber, it could be unlocking something psychologically. Obviously, I have a bias towards the psychological side of things, is what I'm more interested in. But I also think it's kind of a precursor for the physical. So it's like, you know, how do you train? It's like first you need to be motivated. Like if you don't have the motivation, you can't train in the right way. Or if you don't feel brave enough, um, or you're not taking enough responsibility for your climbing progression to get a coach, you know, that there's all that basically there's just so many psychological barriers, even to the most basic physical progressions, that I think that I have, you know, I I I tend to have a bias towards them, but I also think that they tend to be kind of like the more foundational things. But yeah, I don't know. I uh what do you think is your is there one thing? Has anyone said one thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:39

Well, it's funny is that I actually think that the reason I I ask it and want to hear from all of you different great climbers is that my belief is that basically what you said, every person's path to greatness has to be unique, and that that's why I like hearing about and why I'm not so interested about how to become good. Because I think becoming good is is showing up, you know, like show up, climb a bunch, do your thing a bunch, like you're gonna you're gonna if you do something for a long time, you're gonna get good. Being great seems to be a a unique path that everyone has to go on. Um, and so you know you can never tell someone, hey, this is your path to greatness, but by sharing one's own path to greatness, I think it does maybe give people hints about where um that their specialties might lie.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:28

I think if I had to pick one thing, it would be like this mastery mindset. Because I think if you have that mastery mindset, you show up in the right ways more often in this like an intense way, because you're just so you're so completely committed to climbing and to progression in climbing, because that's what mastery is, that if you have something that's limiting you, you're gonna find it, you know, or you're gonna find someone who's gonna help you find it. So I think for me that if I had to pick one thing, it would probably be that, but you also need to define what great is. Like, I don't know, loads of people wouldn't think I'm great.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:05

So I don't know. They're well, they're wrong. They're wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:10

Uh you haven't seen me climb indoors.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:14

Well, uh that's what's great about our sport too, is that you can find the discipline where your greatness shines through, which is a really cool thing. Where if someone does just want to climb indoors, go ahead. Like, if that's what you love and that's where you want to express your one-zone mastery, like I as someone who grew up, I I feel like I was kind of the first wave of uh someone who started indoors. Like I started climbing in like the early mid-90s or something, and we didn't have a lot of gyms, but I was taken to a gym and I really enjoyed it. And I did start climbing outdoors, but you know, I I loved indoors, and it's been interesting seeing climbing kind of transform a bit, or or or I shouldn't say transform, open up that avenue of someone to focus on just that, although it's uh yeah, it's it's it's a different level of mastery. Where I think the reason why what you said about mastery really resonates with me is that I have this belief that in some ways what we all like in climbing is to look at something, think it looks cool, and then you know, want to climb it. And and I think that's always been uh underlying drive. Maybe it's just for myself, but I have a hunch, it's for a lot of people, just this desire to climb the things that you want to climb, regardless of the grade, the rock type, the the discipline, just that you have this thing in you that you're like, that, like that looks cool. And to me, that that's you know a good expression of mastery is having that freedom almost.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:40

Totally, yeah. I I I would say you're right, a lot of people have that, but I think that some people could reconnect with that more too and probably benefit from that.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:49

What's funny is that some of my top moments in climbing, not necessarily uh physically as far as difficulty goes, but are these flow states where my body is doing kind of the implicit uh beta, you know, this like I'm I I'm just kind of climbing, and I feel like that comes from mastery where you're kind of just your body is just like, I'm going to do a backflag. And you go, why? It's like, I don't know, but it's just happening. And I think that's one of the things I love about making sure that you've exposed yourself to different rock types, different, different styles, different disciplines, slabs, overhangs, is like sometimes it just comes out of you in this effortless, beautiful way, and you're like, wow, like I I guess my body just kind of knows how to do this. And that feels great, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:35

Yeah, I think that's one of my favorite moments in climbing. And for me, that's like my one of my personal indicators that I've been in flow is when I like my body surprises me with some kind of creative thing that I never would have thought to do, like looking at a video of someone climbing or watching myself climb. It just did it. And it's like, you know, that your body has that wisdom that you don't have even. I mean, it it is your brain, you know, but you know, on a thinking level, you didn't have that, but your body did. Yeah, I think that's one of the best feelings in climbing for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:11

It's so funny, like you're surprising yourself. So I don't walk off on this uh tangent, but something you don't know about me is I was a philosophy major in school and this stuff floated.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:21

I was a I my my first degree was philosophy.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:24

Oh, awesome. Well, then maybe uh even if I point out these specifics, you might appreciate it. When we were talking about uh, you know, the conscious mind and choosing how you're climbing and the separation, it made me think of Sart and uh, you know, this whole jump between kind of like what you're doing and your vision of thinking about what you're doing. And you know, it's like if you're climbing, but then you're thinking about how you should climb and how you need to look like a climber versus just doing the thing, it it it always just strikes me as these special moments are where that kind of collapses and you're just kind of there doing it, and it's it always makes me think of this moment when I was in class and the professor was trying to describe this. He was like, yo, you're a student, but maybe you're sitting at the front trying to look attentive and take notes and look like a student versus just being a student, but you are a student, and just that whole juxtaposition and that weird kind of uh space between those those states of being is fascinating, but it's important to understand them and use them to your advantage, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:30

Yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean we could go down some rabbit holes here, but um yeah. I think the cool the cool thing about climbing um and these states like flow and clutch is that like yeah, all those kind of levels of thinking, observing, judging, they yeah, they just fall away. And I think like when you strip it down, like probably that's what we're all there for, you know. Without them, I don't know if we would all keep coming back quite so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:03

I agree. I would say a million things more, but it just goes way down a rabbit hole. So uh Hazel, tell people where they can find more about you and these different states and training them. I I know that Strongmind is a company that you run or you you found in you guys have a webinar on this too, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:21

Yeah, I mean if people are like uh specifically interested in like how to access Flow and Clutch more, we have a webinar. You can find it on our website. Um, but I think actually the best thing that you could do is if you're kind of interested in this stuff and like just like the conversation in general would be to just sign up for our newsletter. So if you go to strongmindclimbing.com and we it we call it the thought of the week, although we often do it bi-monthly. Um and basically we just try and make sure it's not boring, you know, it's not a brand newsletter, it's like we'll take some kind of interesting concept like flow or clutch or like the concepts underlying the concepts under the concepts. And we basically, yeah, we just get into the nitty-gritty with it. It's always related to climbing. So yeah, I think that's probably the best way to get like a bit more involved with what we do or like dig a bit deeper into this stuff, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:15

And go watch that YouTube. I'll I'll link it in the show notes on YouTube about it. I loved it. Hazel was so good. Also, it starts out with you like high up in Oleana, and you made me remember that one of my big motivators in climbing is limestone climbing, uh, or yeah, like sport climbing. Limestone sport climbing in Europe is like the most type one fun climbing I have ever done. And wish I did it more. And I was like, oh, maybe I need to like, maybe that's my big motivator. That's my why is being an Oleana.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:47

Yeah, Oleana is a great, great crack.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:49

Okay, well, uh I know you also have a little one and it's late where you are. So uh before I let you go, I just want to ask a Patreon bonus question, which is related to that. If you want to hear that QA and other extra behind the scenes content from this episode and others, head over to patreon.com slash test piece to sign up now. Patrons also get their episodes early and ad-free. There's hours and hours of bonus content there to help you on your own path of going from good to great. Still not sure? There's a free seven day trial for you to check it out. And to help the show grow, please share this episode with someone who would love it. Okay, see you next week.